|
Puck, the Faerie Dragon
![[image loading]](http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/212/b/7/puck___dota_2_by_upsidedownbattleship-d6fytwt.jpg)
While Puck seems at first glance a mischievous, childish character, this quality masks an alien personality. The juvenile form of a Faerie Dragon, a creature that lives for eons, Puck spends countless millennia in its childish form. So while it is technically true that Puck is juvenile, it will continue to be so when the cities of the present age have sloughed away into dust. Its motives are therefore inscrutable, and what appears to be play may in fact hide a darker purpose. Its endless fondness for mischief is the true indicator of Puck's true nature.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Puck
|
Alright, so this hero makes no sense to me and being weirded out by the lack of an appropriate thread, here it is. Can't supply you with a guide, sorry - I will update the OP should something spring up around here.
That being said, there are some things I wanna clear up:
- Why do people max orb before silence?
- Arguably Puck reaches highest efficiency around lv11 with the second level of Coil. His attack damage is rather mediocre, so how do you build him after blink in magic/right-click heavy lineups? How does Dagon 1 or straight sheepstick sound as a follow-up?
- Do you prioritize positioning allowing you to escape safely with low level of Phase Shift when initiating, or would you rather catch as many people with silence/coil damage?
|
I am a fan of phase boots puck to blink with some points in stats prior
|
On July 03 2014 23:30 makmeatt wrote:Alright, so this hero makes no sense to me and being weirded out by the lack of an appropriate thread, here it is. Can't supply you with a guide, sorry - I will update the OP should something spring up around here. That being said, there are some things I wanna clear up: - Why do people max orb before silence?
- Arguably Puck reaches highest efficiency around lv11 with the second level of Coil. His attack damage is rather mediocre, so how do you build him after blink in magic/right-click heavy lineups? How does Dagon 1 or straight sheepstick sound as a follow-up?
- Do you prioritize positioning allowing you to escape safely with low level of Phase Shift when initiating, or would you rather catch as many people with silence/coil damage?
With Puck you can max either nuke first depending on what your team needs. Waning rift is most useful to max first if they have heros vulnerable to silence where orb is better if you have a delayed blink and need to rely on the ranged nuke damage. I believe the cooldown is slightly lower on orb as well so you could potentially get more out of it potentially that way. I almost always max silence first. Its usually 2-0-1-0 > 2-4-1-1 by level 8.
Usually leaving 1 level in phase shift is enough until level 12. Because its a skill that is great with 1 point or maxed. 2-3 points in it dont add a lot of value when compared to the other nukes. Your combo is Blink, Waning rift, Ult, Orb, phase shift and then return to orb. If you pull this off you will find yourself outside of danger by the time the silence and confusion wears off and you can do some right clicking from the side line.
Dagon is great if youre snowballing or if they have squishy/vulnerable carries. Otherwise i think Sheep is great. Euls is also very helpful if they have silences to dispell silence because if you get silenced you are 100% dead. Also gives you aother way to delay so you can blink away. Puck is also decent at split pushing if youre behind due to her numerous escapes so keep that in mind as well.
I hope this helped for a starting point.
|
You max Orb because you can use it to harass/farm in lane, while Silence forces you to commit because of the shorter range. Orb cooldown is also shorter and Silence mana cost increases with ranks while orb doesnt.
I really like Euls after blink, with Euls + Phase shift + blink + orb you're really hard to kill and can escape from basically anything. Dagon is fun if you're snowballing hard, but I dont like it much otherwise. After that Sheep/situational
Prioritize Escape. Your combo should be Blink in > Silence > Coil > Orb > phase > orb out.
Try to blink a bit behind your target so you can orb backwards while still hitting him.
|
Puck is such a game changer hero, its amazing to watch those coils and wombo combo blinks
|
I'd generally pick treads over phase on puck. Swapping conserves mana, attackspeed comes actually pretty good on you at later levels and the extra strength will help you survive a bit longer. Blink+orb+possible euls give you enough mobility for almost any situation.
Bottle+wand+boots+blink is what you need, after that the options are:
-dagon when there is at least two or three heroes that you'll be able to solokill, note that it really starts to pay off around dagon 3, before that it has really high cd and manacost for continuous use
-sheepstick if you know you won't be needed immediately for more than your nukes+coil and are able to farm for a while
-euls for a game where you fight a lot and need the cyclone for purge or cheap disable
-orchid when nukes aren't enough but you need some right-click and the silence, for example against AM
If I didn't go sheep first I almost always try to get that second, in the rare case we don't need more disables shivas, or orchid/dagon can be considered. The later the game goes less likely I will get euls. Aghanim's is not good enough on puck for its cost I feel, and your ult has such a low cd that refresher does not feel very attractive either.
Get linkens against banes and dooms if you find yourself having too much money, but only after blink plus another item. Even then if you are not focused it is possible to skip in favor of another offensive item.
|
On July 03 2014 23:30 makmeatt wrote:Alright, so this hero makes no sense to me and being weirded out by the lack of an appropriate thread, here it is. Can't supply you with a guide, sorry - I will update the OP should something spring up around here. That being said, there are some things I wanna clear up: - Why do people max orb before silence?
- Arguably Puck reaches highest efficiency around lv11 with the second level of Coil. His attack damage is rather mediocre, so how do you build him after blink in magic/right-click heavy lineups? How does Dagon 1 or straight sheepstick sound as a follow-up?
- Do you prioritize positioning allowing you to escape safely with low level of Phase Shift when initiating, or would you rather catch as many people with silence/coil damage?
I am fan of maxing up Orb and Rift at the same time, or getting Rift maxed first before Orb. Maxing Orb definitely has some advantages, for example it is easier to farm with it from the distance with offlane Puck as you aren't really capable of killing Creeps with Rift or right clicks, or if enemy has early game pushing lineup, you can slow it a bit with Orb from the distance while you can't do anything with Rift.
It really depends from game to game, if your team doesn't have other sources of initiation except you, Hex is great. You will find yourself often in situations where you need to catch opponents and your ulti will be on cooldown or it will be risky to use it there. In games against Silencer or other Silence heroes, Eul is great cheap item for breaking it since Silences just wrecks you. I am not a fan of Dagon at all, but it can be worth it when enemy has weak supports like Maiden/Lina that you can jump on and kill them before they can react. Ghost Scepter and Shiva are great against heavy right-clickers, and BKB is great against teams with a lot of casters and disablers. Linkins is a bit overpriced for what it gives and highly situational, but against Doom is great for example. Overall, Hex is always good and you should always go for it IMO if situation doesn't force you to go for something else.
I can't really give you the answer for third question since it really depends on many factors, what kind of situation we are talking about, what are our heroes, items, levels, how many enemies we are against in that fight, what are their heroes etc. Of course you are trying to catch as many people as possible while evade death, but sometimes risk is too big and isn't worth it.
|
|
|
Boots bottle stick -> blink. Optional to upgrade boots/stick before blink, though usually you would want to do it for laning purposes.
After blink, you either go dagon or sheep. Alternatively, you would get defensive items like linkens/eul. If you're in a mass push lineup, book 3 is also an option. That's not really many ways to build puck. Its pretty much s
Just these few standard builds.
|
I actually like the way pros are building Midas on Puck. They get it after Blink. You only need Blink to create so much havoc in the mid game, which is why you can afford to go Midas after and not get punished much. This was a problem during the Midas era when everyone built Midas blindly without consideration of their contribution. Like the many games where Trixi's DS get Midas before Mek, and get heavily punished in mid game because of it. You don't always need to rush a Midas on cores. You can get it after that one essential item. You're still playing greedily, but you reduce/remove the window in which the enemy can punish the greed.
|
United States47024 Posts
Unless you're getting Dagon or Eul's for specific kinds of games, most of the other post-Blink item options have pretty large gaps in itemized stats anyway. You're basically looking at saving 2k, holding a casual Ultimate Orb, then finishing an item 3k gold later in the best case scenario. If that's your progression, it's not that far-fetched that a Midas isn't going to lose you much combat effectiveness.
|
Yep. Main point is that at least no one is going Midas before Blink on Puck :D
|
Midas is questionnable on every hero and at the same time can be purchase on every hero and be efficient.
I don't if puck really need it.
The only reason i see is if you know the game gonna go really long because otherwise puck can farm enough just by himself he is not like CK or naix who have litterally nothing to farm.
|
Puck just feels so underwhelming after the early game, whereas QoP can at least transition to physical DPS (1.6 BAT, 2 AGI/LVL > 1.7 BAT &1.7 AGI).
Any mind-blowing tips that will improve anyone's Puck game?
|
On November 21 2014 16:19 paper wrote:
Puck just feels so underwhelming after the early game, whereas QoP can at least transition to physical DPS (1.6 BAT, 2 AGI/LVL > 1.7 BAT &1.7 AGI).
Any mind-blowing tips that will improve anyone's Puck game?
I think its just you. New Agha is powerful. Dagon eblade builds still eat heroes. You don't necessarily need to be able to DPS to be relevant in late game.
|
What about a sheep > refresher > aghs type of build after blink? Idk if there's a combo other than just using 2x dream coil and silence on a bunch of heroes and then *maybe* using sheep on another 1-2, but it seems like it has potential.
I say refresher and sheep before aghs because I don't think aghs is stronger than either two dream coils or a hex.
|
On November 22 2014 09:59 Fencar wrote:
What about a sheep > refresher > aghs type of build after blink? Idk if there's a combo other than just using 2x dream coil and silence on a bunch of heroes and then *maybe* using sheep on another 1-2, but it seems like it has potential.
I say refresher and sheep before aghs because I don't think aghs is stronger than either two dream coils or a hex.
Agha is good because it doesn't allow bkb to counter the cc. Not saying which is better because it really depends on the game.
|
If you want to use the more recent midas build, I feel that you should only go for it after blink, as if you're going to have a passive laning phase, you maybe shouldn't have picked puck in the first place. It's definitely situational, and I quite like the item, as you will see most pucks' farm dip at around the 20-30 minute mark, and the midas helps to level that out a little while you make space for your safelaner. I do feel that the midas could be warranted on an offlane puck perhaps in a bottle>brown boots>midas>blink build, as naturally he gets less farm.
|
Where does this hero lane in 6.84? mid or offlane? In what situations do you pick Puck?
If you put Puck in the offlane, what is your item progression? Is brown boots wand/stick bottle blink essentially the build? Is it possible to catch up in jungle if you get zoned out pretty badly? What starting items do you get? Do you need a ward to block the pull camp vs most dual/trilanes, or do you just use it for vision? Do you need a ward at all?
In mid, do you get treads before blink or is your blink timing everything? Should you be stacking and farming your jungle with orb or is the cooldown too long to farm with it effectively without another source of AoE damage?
|
i think mid puck sux unless u have a farming offlaner (bristle, wr, etc)
check out chaq's mid puck guide
offlane phase or treads will sometimes win u the lane. sometimes u need stats items to live. other times u just go blink after boots bottle. warding is the same as for other offlaners, u can always just jaunt into the trees if its an impossible lane and u have no ward tho
start boots or a lot of stats depending on lane mu. or just pretend ur mid puck if its 1v1
|
|
|
I think you can still play him mid to great effect in certain matchups (Puck v QoP for instance) but the hero does feel pretty underwhelming right now.
|
I only upgrade boots if it allows me to win the lane. If I'm doing fine with plain boots, I'll rush that blink. After blink if there are no silences coming, I will usually go for Midas.
|
Consider veil on puck. Allows you to clear creepwave without having the need of right clicking once.
|
On September 02 2015 06:54 babysimba wrote:
Consider veil on puck. Allows you to clear creepwave without having the need of right clicking once.
Veil just for this purpose? I'm not sold :\
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
should buy veil on sf and lina too then 
|
well, sf gets the wave with two razes.
lina/puck have them at 2% hp or something after a combo.
not like that would validate veil 
|
On September 02 2015 21:57 sCuMBaG wrote:well, sf gets the wave with two razes. lina/puck have them at 2% hp or something after a combo. not like that would validate veil
how bout with storm spirit and leshrac?
|
So whats up with the Puck buffs in 6.85?
I feel like Icefrog is trying to push him towards the offlane (buffing mobility/reducing mana costs) rather than trying to make him viable mid again (by buffing his damage).
Anyone tried it yet in pubs?
|
On September 28 2015 17:16 BobMcJohnson wrote:
So whats up with the Puck buffs in 6.85?
I feel like Icefrog is trying to push him towards the offlane (buffing mobility/reducing mana costs) rather than trying to make him viable mid again (by buffing his damage).
Anyone tried it yet in pubs?
Didnt try Puck yet in pubs since 6.85. So everything below is theorycrafting.
Tbh I have no idea what IF is trying to do with this patch. If he wanted offlane-Puck he would have buffed his base armor or hp regen, right? Puck's problem is not that he's a low impact offlaner, the problem is that he has a terrible laning phase against 2 or more until he hits at least lvl 2 and doesnt farm the blink he depends so much on well outside of a lane. For the typical roam/space creating aoe-control-offlaner like centaur, clockwerk, tusk, tide,... his laning phase is just absymal.
Tbh I think that Puck's better this patch in mid compared to last one, higher orb speed means easier orb-harass and lots of common mids got nerfed. Also since dual lanes are coming back, having a semi-farming offlaner like bb is easier to pull off.
That being said the hero's still shit imo. The scenarios in which I would pick him over something like clockwerk or es for offl or qop for mid are pretty much non-existent. For a mid he just scales way to badly and the high manacosts mean that you cant even build a semi-early refresher. I'd only pick Puck atm when I know he/she/it's gonna get a 1v1 in his offlane.
Wished he became a more viable offlaner, because I really like to play Puck and Puck fits offlane nowadays a lot more than mid.
The hero needs some more substantial changes like one out of mana cost, orb damage, health regen or a major buff to cds.
@wr: dotabuff tells me Puck places at the tenth lowest spot atm, 43.7%
|
Dream Coil's cool down is still way to long for what it does. I find it amusing that it exist in a world with gryo and call down.
|
Has anyone tested out Puck in the offlane this patch? A lot of the more tempo-controlling heroes that used to go mid (Magnus comes to mind) seem to have been forced into the offlane and the 6.85 changes certainly seem geared towards making Puck more viable in the offlane.
My gut tells me that Puck is probably not viable in either mid or in the offlane, but I haven't played Puck in a long time so I can't say for sure.
|
On November 17 2015 16:26 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Has anyone tested out Puck in the offlane this patch? A lot of the more tempo-controlling heroes that used to go mid (Magnus comes to mind) seem to have been forced into the offlane and the 6.85 changes certainly seem geared towards making Puck more viable in the offlane.
My gut tells me that Puck is probably not viable in either mid or in the offlane, but I haven't played Puck in a long time so I can't say for sure.
I've seen it played a few times. Still not particularly effective although the few times I saw it it was picked early and we had a strong support who totally zoned puck.
|
Puck is a hero that desperately wants to be an offlaner but just doesn't have the laning presence.
Icefrog needs to decide whether he wants the hero to be an offlane or a mid. If he wants a mid, the hero needs to scale hard enough to justify it. If he wants an offlaner, which I think makes more sense, it needs to not be zoned by basically everything.
|
|
|
On the one hand like duck said, a simple dream coil cd reduction would do a lot for this hero since its entire concept is around tempo.
On the other hand we can imagine an ice frog style buff in the form of giving waning rift knock back like Kotl blind does for both versatility and dream cool breakage on demand
|
On November 18 2015 05:31 hariooo wrote:
On the one hand like duck said, a simple dream coil cd reduction would do a lot for this hero since its entire concept is around tempo.
On the other hand we can imagine an ice frog style buff in the form of giving waning rift knock back like Kotl blind does for both versatility and dream cool breakage on demand
While I agree that dream coil's cd is way to high for what it does, I dont think the high cd is the problem. Tbh when Puck is successful it's mostly on the back of a good draft that makes good use of Puck's initiation in skirmishes and you dont skirmish a lot more often than once every 75 secs.
I think the problem is more that his stats don't allow a fighting build and his skills don't deal enough damage to have a big impact after 30-35 minutes, especially since not a single one pierces bkb. That makes him really undesirable as a mid hero.
Combine that with low basestats (435 hp and 2 armor) and terrible stat-growth and the hero can't trade against most supports at lvl 1.
Knockback on waning rift is a nice suggestion. Forcing aghs dreamcoil would be pretty potent even in the mid- lategame.
If I was IF I would either buff base armor/hp or heavily rescale dreamcoil damage. And make aghs dreamcoil go through bkb.
|
I love this hero, but I feel like Puck adds very little value at the moment, even in pubs... I really hope for Puck to be buffed soon. The knockback idea is nice
|
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect.
|
On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect.
I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned.
Then again if you look at qop, one of the reasons why she can go right-click quite easily is that she's able to kite people with her 5 seconds blink. So the closer illusiory orb gets to blink the more accessible right-click builds would be.
After checking stats, I noticed that qop's and Puck's stats are pretty similar and with two nukes Puck can farm rather quickly. So theoretically if right-click on Queen is somewhat viable it should be on Puck as well.
I mean you could bkb+blink in, use rift and ult and right-click until bkb's close to expiring and then orb out. You won't get qop's lvl of damage (coil is a joke compared to sonic wave and Puck needs 2k gold more and snowballs worse), but it might be better than going the pure utility route. Rift would have to be used more like qop scream, aka you hit one or two targets less but stay in a safer position.
Overall after thinking about it a bit I think I'd buff orb cd by a lot, down to 5-7 seconds. Make the hero really mobile so she can abuse cliffs and right-clicks become possible.
Or if Puck is supposed to stay a midgame tempo one-trick pony add coil break damage to normal damage. Maybe make aghs coil go through bkb entirely.
|
Buff orb speed and distant. So same travel time. Crazy long range initiation
|
On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned.
My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.)
Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two.
Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.)
|
On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.)
I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game.
examples:+ Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right?
@your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea.
Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates.
|
All this hero needs is for ult to work against bkb without agha. Make agha upgrade something else.
|
On November 20 2015 02:06 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.) I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game. examples: + Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right? @your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea. Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates.
I think you aren't really taking into account that phase shift has 3.25 second duration at max level. If you have a 6 second cd illusory orb, which, mind you, lasts 3 seconds to begin with, you become actually unkillable with blink.
|
On November 20 2015 11:43 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 02:06 Blackfeather wrote:On November 19 2015 19:05 Yurie wrote:On November 19 2015 08:53 Blackfeather wrote:On November 18 2015 17:14 Yurie wrote:
My proposed buff would be to make orb travel faster so it is harder to dodge and puck can escape ganks easier. The problem remaining is the late game then. Maybe make the silence continue through bkb/manta with aghs instead of the current effect. I feel like buffing orb travel speed is a double edged sword. Faster travel speed aka lower duration of the orb makes the timing window smaller and small ccs pretty deadly. It also makes it harder to weave some auto-attacks in. I don't think Puck's problem is survivability if he isn't silenced or stunned. My main thought was in laning and tower defence scenarios. When you hit the creep-wave and every hero just moves out of the way. Compare to DK/Lina nukes that you have to pre-position against. Thinking about it, it is a bad idea. Removes a unique feature from Dota since you then more or less lack slow nukes. (It isn't aimed at survivability, though it does do that as well.) Your suggestion of CD reduction might make tower defence spam too strong. It is a problematic nuke to do anything to. I much prefer modifying the other two. Perhaps add another effect to phase shift where it has an AOE that anybody inside gets pushed out of, forcing the ulti stun if used well. (Might be too strong with Aghs ulti.) I see what you mean with the defense spam, but there are a lot of more spammable nukes with lots of range in the game. examples: + Show Spoiler +
Dragon slave f.e. has 8.5 sec cd, lsa has 7, raze has 10 but 2 charges if we are talking about medium+long range. Iceshards has 10, Powershot has 9, splinter blast has 7 and chakram has 8. Shockwave has 7, Slight of Fist 6, 8 if you want to be able to use searing chains. Arc lightning is at 1.75, ether shock 8, Illuminate has 10, but with chakra magic precast 5. Crypt swarm has 8, 4 after maxing witchcraft.
So I don't see why exactly Illusiory orb can't go down to 7 or 6 (aligns with phase shift), especially if it stays dodgeable. Elusiveness is supposed to be what the hero is about, right? @your suggestion: I would prefer it if coil gave another ability that ends coil but that applies a weaker version of the break effect. I mean the hero's supposed to keep the enemies together at a small area, it feels like knockback destroys that idea. Aside from that the coil effect before aghs is still at large underwhelming. It becomes a slightly better crush at lvl 16 on a 75 second cd. Coil is the obvious skill for a number change, especially since IF seems to like the idea of strong ultimates. I think you aren't really taking into account that phase shift has 3.25 second duration at max level. If you have a 6 second cd illusory orb, which, mind you, lasts 3 seconds to begin with, you become actually unkillable with blink.
When you do no damage being unkillable is much less threatening, though I agree 6 seconds is a BIT QUESTIONABLE
|
Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
|
Her spells need to be buffed hard.
Puck's damage output should be bigger, and silence should be way more effective, because that silence sounds really underwhelming.
Ult is fine imo, same for phase shift.
|
United States47024 Posts
The biggest issue Puck has is irrelevant to Puck himself but simply a matter of how the game plays. When tempo mids were still a big component of the game, Puck was near the top. He was a very regular pick around the time of TI3 and even going into the latter half of 2013. His fall from there has nothing to do with his skills not being good enough in any way, but that for the last 2 years, nobody really wants to play tempo mid heroes over farming cores. Now that offlane has become the main place to put a tempo hero, people have no interest in a mid who does less with farm than other cores.
Conversely, comparing him to offlane tempo heroes, he has a crucial shortcoming which is that popular offlaners such as Slardar and Tusk can apply pressure to mid as early as level 2, while Puck has no hard disable until level 6.
On December 06 2015 03:57 Blackfeather wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
Over Slardar and Tusk, Puck's advantage is that he's a strong solo laner and can play mid much better.
Over QoP, Puck's advantage is that he has a powerful gank timing at around 2k gold where he can take over the game and develop the other lanes. QoP's damage stays competitive with Puck for the first 7 levels but drops off from 8-10 because she maxes a non-damage skill second while Puck's burst damage continues to grow. She's a stronger lategame hero but Puck has a distinct advantage going into the midgame as a ganker/tempo controller.
The problem is, again, that these advantages are not taken advantage of in the way the game plays. Nobody cares about a tempo controller mid because you can support one offlane and play a farming hero mid. This isn't a problem with Puck, it's a problem with the game as a whole that extends to other heroes.
|
On December 06 2015 10:16 TheYango wrote:The biggest issue Puck has is irrelevant to Puck himself but simply a matter of how the game plays. When tempo mids were still a big component of the game, Puck was near the top. He was a very regular pick around the time of TI3 and even going into the latter half of 2013. His fall from there has nothing to do with his skills not being good enough in any way, but that for the last 2 years, nobody really wants to play tempo mid heroes over farming cores. Now that offlane has become the main place to put a tempo hero, people have no interest in a mid who does less with farm than other cores. Conversely, comparing him to offlane tempo heroes, he has a crucial shortcoming which is that popular offlaners such as Slardar and Tusk can apply pressure to mid as early as level 2, while Puck has no hard disable until level 6. Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 03:57 Blackfeather wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Well I think the hero needs something big. There are lots and lots of questionable spells in dota.
I mean look at our current meta hero tusk, every single one of his spells are somewhere between good and extremely questionable. Shards and snowball are some of the numerical best spells in the game, you have a 7 second indestructible ranged power cogs with 10 second cd and a 3+ second long 18 second cd aoe teamfight combo breaker that can be cancelled with delay by the hero who casts it, it repositions heroes and as a cherry top stuns everything in a line. And ofc both spells deal decent damage. Then you get a great auto-crit with abyssal blade active, 4 second slow and 12 sec cd on max lvl and an aoe movable slow area with 1200 aoe which has 20 sec downtime.
Now I think we can safely say that Tusk is rather extreme, but it becomes very clear that tusk's strenghts are very similar for offlane. He's extremely disruptive and can dish out a lot of damage fast. Why exactly would I pick Puck?
Slardar is another hot pick atm, 8 second cd on his 2.5 seconds stun, with a small slow attached. His mobility skill has 5 seconds downtime. Slardar's Crush and Sprint provide better control and similar mobility on lower cd than Puck's entire skillset. And then you add amplify. Where are Puck's advantages?
Queen for midlane has 6 seconds cd on her mobility spell and 7 seconds on her aoe-nuke. I'd take Sonic wave over Coil every day. Again why Puck?
Tbh the only advantage that I can see designwise is that Puck is supposed to never die.
Over Slardar and Tusk, Puck's advantage is that he's a strong solo laner and can play mid much better. Over QoP, Puck's advantage is that he has a powerful gank timing at around 2k gold where he can take over the game and develop the other lanes. QoP's damage stays competitive with Puck for the first 7 levels but drops off from 8-10 because she maxes a non-damage skill second while Puck's burst damage continues to grow. She's a stronger lategame hero but Puck has a distinct advantage going into the midgame as a ganker/tempo controller. The problem is, again, that these advantages are not taken advantage of in the way the game plays. Nobody cares about a tempo controller mid because you can support one offlane and play a farming hero mid. This isn't a problem with Puck, it's a problem with the game as a whole that extends to other heroes.
@meta I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that she's bad in the current meta and has been ever since farming mids became standard.
Also with all the buffs to supports, the fact that they nowadays often temporarily get a lane to catch up in exp and the general slight power creep, her impact just isn't as big anymore.
@QoP comparison: QoP always deals more damage, even at lvl 10 with 1 in dagger (495 Puck with coil break, 665 QoP with SS). Given, a lot of that is over time, but even in burst without SS ticks QoP beats Puck (420 or 495 with coil break to 527). And after 10 QoPs damage rises again, to the point where at 16 her larger aoe ultimate deals almost more damage than Puck's entire combo.
The main advantage was imo that Puck could transition into an initiating role, which allowed for more greed on the offlaners, something [A] used a lot in their prime. But initiators nowadays initiate on one or two people and use their low cds to be disruptive instead of waiting for three or more people to gather at one spot. Puck doesn't have that luxury, her spells all have high cd and don't work on bkb targets unless you spend 4k gold to get a bad root spell.
I think that the Pure damage-treatment is a big factor why QoP as a tempo core could stay relevant. Puck has yet to get a spell that affects magic immune targets (let's be honest, aghs coil is clunky).
|
buff orb mana cost pls
radiance octarine puck never forget
|
On December 06 2015 14:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
buff orb mana cost pls
radiance octarine puck never forget
radiance burns while phaseshifted? That sounds like lots of fun.
|
yea beesa did it to me in an inhouse it was painful
phase shift only has like 1.25 sec downtime too
|
Again, assuming that mid will remain a farming role for the near future, puck needs one of two things. He needs to scale hard enough to justify a mid role, or he needs to be more reliable in the offlane and able to do more at low levels.
I would personally like to see him moved to the offlane.
If I were going to change him, I'd probably give rift a brief slow so that orb->rift ganks on mid were more effective from 3-5. You could throw on a bit more armour or ms or something to help his survivability as well, if you needed to.
|
Puck was one of the most picked heroes in 6.82 still around a year ago. Two of the teams that were consistently doing well around that time and picking a lot of Puck were c9 with Fata and EG with Fear playing it. Around that time I think there were a few things that also contributed to making Puck better. For example Void, Naga, AM, TB, Lycan were all relatively popular picks for these teams. Drow Visage was also a thing. Enigma was a relatively common pick. Quite a few of the heroes that were rated high in other positions were heroes that like to take a lot of farm for themselves, benefit greatly from having lockdown from other heroes at all stages of the game, and can't exactly go for moves of their own all the time.
Nowadays heroes that don't want to go for very early roams are not as common in the safelane. For example QoP, Gyro and Ember are all heroes that are extremely strong for early skirmishing, want to use that power peak, so someone else has to take the space to farm. Also some of the current offlane options are such good heroes for frequent skirmishing without any items, prime example being Tusk. In 6.82 popular offlane picks included Bat, Tide, Jakiro, Centaur, Furion. All heroes that can't exactly initiate skirmishes with zero items properly, so a hero that can help with that rather early on from mid is useful.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On December 06 2015 19:59 Belisarius wrote:
Again, assuming that mid will remain a farming role for the near future, puck needs one of two things. He needs to scale hard enough to justify a mid role, or he needs to be more reliable in the offlane and able to do more at low levels.
I would personally like to see him moved to the offlane.
If I were going to change him, I'd probably give rift a brief slow so that orb->rift ganks on mid were more effective from 3-5. You could throw on a bit more armour or ms or something to help his survivability as well, if you needed to.
what if it caused a blind with 50% chance to miss instead of a slow? dream coil is already really good at holding people in place from 6 on, and you're likely not going to be leveling rift heavily from 3-5 anyway.
|
just a random idea for puck:
what if you buff pucks early game escape and make his pre dagger initiation stronger? my idea would be to buff orb speed to ~850 and rescale phase shift to 1.75/2.25/2.75/3.25
with those changes the hero would gain more earlygame fighting power and is more likely to get an initation off before he gets his dagger, at the same time his survivability against dual lanes increases and both together should make him a decent offlaner or greedy support.
|
add another second onto the silence or add a little more damage to coil is all he needs. honestly even if he doesnt get buffed at all, im not complaining. the hero is still good and when other heroes get nerfed or buffed and the meta changes, puck will find his place again
|
On December 07 2015 05:41 hfglgg wrote:
just a random idea for puck:
what if you buff pucks early game escape and make his pre dagger initiation stronger? my idea would be to buff orb speed to ~850 and rescale phase shift to 1.75/2.25/2.75/3.25
with those changes the hero would gain more earlygame fighting power and is more likely to get an initation off before he gets his dagger, at the same time his survivability against dual lanes increases and both together should make him a decent offlaner or greedy support.
Giving puck a 3 second or longer duration on phase shift would all but guarantee a blink dagger escape. There is a reason it was brought below 3 a while ago.
|
On December 07 2015 09:48 Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 05:41 hfglgg wrote:
just a random idea for puck:
what if you buff pucks early game escape and make his pre dagger initiation stronger? my idea would be to buff orb speed to ~850 and rescale phase shift to 1.75/2.25/2.75/3.25
with those changes the hero would gain more earlygame fighting power and is more likely to get an initation off before he gets his dagger, at the same time his survivability against dual lanes increases and both together should make him a decent offlaner or greedy support.
Giving puck a 3 second or longer duration on phase shift would all but guarantee a blink dagger escape. There is a reason it was brought below 3 a while ago.
It's currently still above 3 seconds. He's talking about rescaling so that the earlier levels are stronger.
|
Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect.
|
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote:
Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect.
i disagree. we are not seeing bkbs as early as before anymore, often only as a 3rd item and there is enough time for a mid puck to farm blink-aghs before anyone has bkb.
sure he could have a shivas or hex if aghs would go through bkb but i dont think one more item gives this hero the push it needs.
|
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote:
Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect.
This is pretty much it. They need to either give puck more effective damage with her combo, or some other utility like a blind, longer silence, something that makes coil/rift more disable, lower cooldown etc. because at the moment puck is mediocre at both.
Ive actually always liked this hero, slardar is kind of played in a similar way with blink nowadays. I think the solution is to give her more effective utility, because at the moment you can just pick qop or slardar and they can basicaly do everything a puck can but better.
|
I would just do a simple dmg buff to puck's nukes to the point where he can nuke down creeps without right clicking up to a certain stage of the game. Better creep push = better farm, better map control, more opportunities to fight 2-3 man skirmishes which puck excels in. Puck isn't that bad against bkb provided he has farm. Dagons and hexes are pretty good against it and Puck is elusive enough to avoid entire bkb duration in late game.
Then again, I would rather see other carry mids get nerfed maybe through 6.86 jungle changes. No tempo mids certainly make the game less exciting.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote:
Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect.
This was always an "issue", even when Puck was good. It's a perennial weakness of the hero that the hero was able to overcome. It's like saying CM's main issue is her low base MS--while it's true that it's a significant weakness, it's not the deciding factor in the hero being good or bad because whenever the hero is good, her other strengths are more than good enough to overcome that characteristic weakness.
It's only the shift away from tempo mid laners that forced Puck out of having a good place in the game.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
core heroes that see a significant power decline when bkb's come out bc they aren't a major right click threat are simply less desirable, there's no denying that.
unless she gets something that pierces bkb, the moment enemy carries pick theirs up, she's more or less done. sure you could go blink agha, but then you have no other utility and vulnerable to silences as well. even before agha, most of the cores she'd be fighting against can usually stand and manfight, hopefully buying enough time for a rotation.
honestly the more i think about it, the more i like the idea i presented on the previous page, giving her a blind. if that wasn't purgable by bkb, i think that change alone would make her a strong offlaner. not only are you holding heroes in place, you're making it difficult for them to manfight until help arrives.
|
giving lina and qop bkb piercing ulties was stupid. now we have to give bkb piercing ulties to everyone to make them viable. soon there will be a new bkb which doesnt get pierced by bkb piercing skills
|
SoCal8910 Posts
i think that bkb is more likely to be changed to grant 100% spell dmg resistance and prevent spell targeting before that 
|
On December 08 2015 12:16 evilfatsh1t wrote:
giving lina and qop bkb piercing ulties was stupid. now we have to give bkb piercing ulties to everyone to make them viable. soon there will be a new bkb which doesnt get pierced by bkb piercing skills
Giving Lina and QoP bkb piercing ulties did however keep them relevant in a time where most other tempo controllers fell off. OD and Puck still haven't found their place.
I agree with the tendency that bkb nowadays is a being pierced by too many spells. But tbh I think it's mainly an issue when a bkb piercing disable is on a support like wyvern and less when it's on heroes that are played as #2 that bring mainly spells to the table. Because you really don't want your core to be entirely unable to fight against the enemies core because he's countered by a single item.
|
theyre not countered by a single item though. the whole reason why bkb has a reducing duration and a no buy back mechanic is so that bkb gives a power spike and then falls off. later in the game 5 seconds is really not much to wait for magic dmg reliant heroes to do something. unfortunately now a brand new bkb doesnt even have that power spike. this is a whole other discussion though
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2015 13:27 Blackfeather wrote:
Giving Lina and QoP bkb piercing ulties did however keep them relevant in a time where most other tempo controllers fell off. OD and Puck still haven't found their place.
It's hard to attribute Lina's rise to just her BKB-piercing ulti when she got buffed for like 5 versions straight.
|
I think it's fair to say it was the most important one. Enemy BKBs sit right on top of mid Lina's powerspike; If she couldn't nuke through them she wouldn't be worth giving so much farm to, no matter how many other buffs she's received.
I'm personally against the trend of everything piercing BKB. I'd be disappointed if puck became part of that. I don't mind the current aghs - it could even be buffed a little more, like making the ministun pierce as well - but it would be a shame if he got the lina/qop treatment.
|
yea no clue why the aghs ministun doesnt pierce
wow ur gonna get stunned for 4 seconds after completing ur tp wowee
|
SoCal8910 Posts
the fact of the matter is that bkb, as an item, prevents heroes like puck from being pickable because of her reliance on disabling and controlling non-bkb carrying heroes. its not just a puck problem either and tbh it needs to be addressed on many heroes, not just puck.
I think the contempt towards bkb-piercing abilities is mainly a result of the number of exceptions to the rule. honestly, based on the trends in the changes being made to some of the spells, I think Icefrog is trying to move towards a completely different vision of bkb and part of that process is slowly changing the interactions so that when the switch happens, all of the little things are easier to process instead of making massive, sweeping changes all at once to spell interactions with Avatar.
for instance, while we have physical and magic damage, when you cast a spell, its interaction with bkb could be based off of what kind of spell it is, organized categorically. so for instance, you could say a spell is "damaging" (dragon slave) vs "stunning" (storm hammer) vs "slowing" (viper strike) vs "silencing" (waning rift) vs "blinding" (kotl's 'blinding light' I think its called?)
if organized categorically and applying a rule to each category (such as, when cast on a bkb target, slowing spells do not deal magic damage, but their slow is still applied) and sticking to that rule will not only make more sense but it will also make hero balance slightly easier (IMO) because when you change a spell, you know it can only have one possible interaction with BKB.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
the fact of the matter is that bkb, as an item, prevents heroes like puck from being pickable because of her reliance on disabling and controlling non-bkb carrying heroes. its not just a puck problem either and tbh it needs to be addressed on many heroes, not just puck.
If this were true, then how was Puck ever pickable in the past when BKB has only ever consistently gotten weaker over the years of DotA's existence as a game? How was Puck one of the top few mids in the game in a version where BKB was STRONGER than it is now?
Again, Puck's kit having a hard time dealing with BKB has always been a weakness, but it's never been one that actively stopped him from being a good hero. The only systemic trend that pushed Puck out of the game is tempo heroes getting pushed out of mid lane and unlike other heroes in a similar position, Puck doesn't translate as well to being an offlaner or support.
I agree with Belisarius' post from the previous page, that there's essentially two directions to take Puck: make him scale enough with farm to be good mid again, or make him good enough offlane to be worth running there. I also have a preference toward the latter over the former (Puck's power growth already fits the offlane more naturally than mid, as he'd still have a preference for Blink first, and starting to develop the game with it).
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On December 09 2015 04:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
the fact of the matter is that bkb, as an item, prevents heroes like puck from being pickable because of her reliance on disabling and controlling non-bkb carrying heroes. its not just a puck problem either and tbh it needs to be addressed on many heroes, not just puck.
If this were true, then how was Puck ever pickable in the past when BKB has only ever consistently gotten weaker over the years of DotA's existence as a game? How was Puck one of the top few mids in the game in a version where BKB was STRONGER than it is now? Again, Puck's kit having a hard time dealing with BKB has always been a weakness, but it's never been one that actively stopped him from being a good hero. The only systemic trend that pushed Puck out of the game is tempo heroes getting pushed out of mid lane and unlike other heroes in a similar position, Puck doesn't translate as well to being an offlaner or support. I agree with Belisarius' post from the previous page, that there's essentially two directions to take Puck: make him scale enough with farm to be good mid again, or make him good enough offlane to be worth running there. I also have a preference toward the latter over the former (Puck's power growth already fits the offlane more naturally than mid, as he'd still have a preference for Blink first, and starting to develop the game with it).
Because when tempo controlling mids and puck were popular, there was no comeback gold/xp. Now, when you pick these heroes your turning your mid lane into a liability.
Will you dominate hard enough and control the game well enough so that your safe lane carry can finish the game safely? Because if you dont and you take a bad teamfight, you have 2 enemy cores that don't give a damn they're dream coiled that just picked up their bkb from any kills and enemy supports just got enough levels and maybe enough money to be a factor when they weren't before.
Tempo controlling heroes are not desirable bc their tempo means nothing when you lose that fight and teams equalize in terms of gold and xp. Earning half the gold towards a bkb is massive against puck. So are items like guardian greaves (supports can purge silence) and items like solar crest which can really hurts solo carries if you don't have multiple sources of dmg to put on a high value target.
Specifically pertaining to the hero though..as a result of the above, imo, i agree. puck's kit definitely needs to be suited for an offlane role and as such, she probably needs something to stay relevant when bkbs come out like a blind or slow that you can't purge off or pierces but can be purged.
|
United States47024 Posts
Tempo controlling heroes still exist Bluemoon, it's just that they're all offlaners because offlane in the current game has enough resources to support the minimal demands of such a hero getting their first major item (which is really all those heroes really need, same as Puck).
On December 09 2015 05:38 BluemoonSC wrote:
Specifically pertaining to the hero though..as a result of the above, imo, i agree. puck's kit definitely needs to be suited for an offlane role and as such, she probably needs something to stay relevant when bkbs come out like a blind or slow that you can't purge off or pierces but can be purged.
See, I don't see why you feel this is necessary for Puck to be relevant as an offlaner. This isn't necessary for an offlaner to be good, and it's probably not the right approach to the hero. Relevance as an offlaner right now is tied heavily to either how much farm/control over the lane the hero has (e.g. DS, Broodmother, Undying), and more commonly the pressure they exert on mid lane at level 3-5 (e.g. Slardar, Tusk, Earthshaker, NS, SB). Some of these heroes have tools vs. BKB, but many do not.
The issue with Puck in the offlane isn't the lack of an option against BKBs, but the fact that he does neither of these things. He is neither an oppressive laner (and unlike many of these is even worse in 2vX lanes) nor does he contribute any pre-6 pressure on mid lane. Giving Puck a goes-through-BKB anything will help his offlane capacity less than improving either of these aspects of the hero such as stronger laning through base stat/skill buffs or addition of a slow to Orb/Waning to improve pre-6 lane pressure on mid.
|
United States47024 Posts
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On December 09 2015 05:45 TheYango wrote:Tempo controlling heroes still exist Bluemoon, it's just that they're all offlaners because offlane in the current game has enough resources to support the minimal demands of such a hero getting their first major item (which is really all those heroes really need, same as Puck). Show nested quote +On December 09 2015 05:38 BluemoonSC wrote:
Specifically pertaining to the hero though..as a result of the above, imo, i agree. puck's kit definitely needs to be suited for an offlane role and as such, she probably needs something to stay relevant when bkbs come out like a blind or slow that you can't purge off or pierces but can be purged. See, I don't see why you feel this is necessary for Puck to be relevant as an offlaner. This isn't necessary for an offlaner to be good, and it's probably not the right approach to the hero. Relevance as an offlaner right now is tied heavily to either how much farm/control over the lane the hero has (e.g. DS, Broodmother, Undying), and more commonly the pressure they exert on mid lane at level 3-5 (e.g. Slardar, Tusk, Earthshaker, NS, SB). Some of these heroes have tools vs. BKB, but many do not. The issue with Puck in the offlane isn't the lack of an option against BKBs, but the fact that he does neither of these things. He is neither an oppressive laner (and unlike many of these is even worse in 2vX lanes) nor does he contribute any pre-6 pressure on mid lane. Giving Puck a goes-through-BKB anything will help his offlane capacity less than improving either of these aspects of the hero such as stronger laning through base stat/skill buffs or addition of a slow to Orb/Waning to improve pre-6 lane pressure on mid.
all of those heroes you mention have some other form of utility and can do something else either in a team fight or on their own when enemy cores get magic immunity. i don't think saying that 'many do not' is true.
additionally, yes, i agree that she needs a pre-6 buff but i also think that she needs a buff to her skillset later in the game. as the game progresses, puck is much less relevant than, say, a magnus or a slardar.
|
If he's going to be worth giving mid to at the moment, he probably needs some BKB-piercing damage and/or reliable CC.
If he's going to be an offlaner he needs a little more laning presence and some kind of pre-6 CC to gank mid.
If the frog is going to shake things up enough that tempo controller mids are a thing again, he might not need any changes at all.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
that's probably a good synopsis of the debate.
personally, i hope the frog shakes things up a bit.
|
Thing though is I don't like the suggestions on how to buff offlane puck. It is like we are altering the hero based on an existing concepts, trying to make the hero fit into the offlane model. I think the focus should be on the hero's niche, and that is the silence initiation and coil.
You don't need to design a hero specifically so that he thrives at a certain lane. You give the hero good attributes so that teams will want to pick him for a function, and will find a way to lane him.
|
On December 09 2015 15:59 DucK- wrote:
Thing though is I don't like the suggestions on how to buff offlane puck. It is like we are altering the hero based on an existing concepts, trying to make the hero fit into the offlane model. I think the focus should be on the hero's niche, and that is the silence initiation and coil.
You don't need to design a hero specifically so that he thrives at a certain lane. You give the hero good attributes so that teams will want to pick him for a function, and will find a way to lane him.
Well it's potentially possible to run Puck as a dual off with something like an undying f.e.. Atm it's just not worth it however, because dual lane puck doesn't provide enough impact unless the player plays out of his mind. I think a big part of the reason is that the hero's abilities just aren't strong enough, but everyone else seemed to disagree with me or at least with my suggestion to buff his cd so that Puck actually deals damage in fights after his combo and has an incentive to stay around the edges of the fight outside of auto-attacks.
I think the alternative would be to buff coil to a spell that scales decently even without break damage and reduce the cd to something that allows her to fight more. We are starting to see Centaur as poor man's tusk, so there definitely is space enough to play a hero who needs his 6 in the offlane.
I think the big problem with Puck and bkb is that bkb removes silence and pre-aghs coil. Other initiators can blink stun and if the bkb-carrier isn't really fast he gets stunned and potentially chain stunned. Puck just doesn't provide any control against bkb-carrier.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
^ exactly what I've been saying, blackfeather. bkb affects puck in a way that it does not affect other initiators and tempo controllers. oh AND bkb isn't the only item that's making puck less compelling to pick/play bc supports can now pick up greaves and not have to worry about being silenced. add in the fact that she doesn't have another utility to fall back on so you'd almost always pick another hero that does that job better WITHOUT having to pick up several items occupy mid lane OR can do something else.
oh and that hero won't have to occupy mid, either.
@duck niche picks are cool and all, but the niche that puck fills is entirely too limited, IMO.
|
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck.
|
Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling.
I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in.
One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok.
On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote:
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck.
I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic.
|
On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote:Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote:
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic.
qop has a lower BAT and her ult deals pure damage which means she's more relevant vs bkb heroes basically all the time
|
That, plus the fact that blink is about more than simply getting in.
Having blink means you can save orb to reposition after dumping yourself in the middle of their team, which is extremely important for a hero as frail as puck. It also guarantees orb damage on key targets, since being forced to engage with orb means it often misses.
Skipping blink for dps wouldn't actually give you more damage, outside edge cases, and in most of those cases you're probably better off rushing dagon instead of rightclick anyway.
|
On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote:Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote:
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic.
he means the ministun on latch, not on break... either that or think you missed the last part so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck
though you're right to imply it would definitely nerf puck's early solokill potential
|
On December 13 2015 21:44 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote:Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote:
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic. he means the ministun on latch, not on break... either that or think you missed the last part Show nested quote +so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck though you're right to imply it would definitely nerf puck's early solokill potential
Yeah nvm, I'm dumb. I sometimes use coil later on in ganks or skirmishes to keep people in place, so it makes a difference there, but more often than for tps I use it to restrict movement.
On December 13 2015 10:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 02:31 Blackfeather wrote:Has anyone experimented with item builds? The new orb is pretty fast and maybe you can nowadays just skip blink dagger. Also after double-checking I noticed that QoPs stats are at large identical, so maybe you could also build some right-click items on Puck? Would somewhat solve the bkb-weakness the bad scaling. I mean the hero doesn't farm slowly by any means and with phase shift and orb it's relatively easy to bring some auto-attacks in. One of the main problems that the normal opening for right-click on int heroes is orchid and buying orchid mainly for the amplify and stats is a bit meh. Then again if you don't build blink anyways maybe the silence is ok. On December 13 2015 00:30 Irratonalys wrote:
I think dream coil should be bigger risk/reward , remove the ministun and the initial damage , but make the stun always bkb piercing and longer duration (2/3/4) + increased damage , so as to actually have an incentive to pick heros and items that manipulate movement along with puck. I think if you remove the ministun everyone just tps out. Puck's damage isnt that fantastic. qop has a lower BAT and her ult deals pure damage which means she's more relevant vs bkb heroes basically all the time
Well the difference between the BATs is pretty small (0.1) and the difference comes entirely from the backswing. I doubt most moving people notice the difference.
Yeah I'm not saying Puck is going to scale as well as qop against bkb, but maybe Puck stops being entirely useless against cores with bkb for their entire duration.
On December 13 2015 12:33 Belisarius wrote:
That, plus the fact that blink is about more than simply getting in.
Having blink means you can save orb to reposition after dumping yourself in the middle of their team, which is extremely important for a hero as frail as puck. It also guarantees orb damage on key targets, since being forced to engage with orb means it often misses.
Skipping blink for dps wouldn't actually give you more damage, outside edge cases, and in most of those cases you're probably better off rushing dagon instead of rightclick anyway.
Yeah without blink with right-click you would have to play puck more like qop in that you run around at the edges of the fights and don't try to jump into as many people as possible to initiate, at least not unless you have a good follow up initiation.
The idea was that you try to make a damage dealing core past 25 minutes out of Puck instead of a pure initiator that becomes useless against cores once bkbs are up and people get tanky enough to just sustain what Puck throws at them.
The logic would be the same as behind right-click qop: Less impact initially for more later on. There can be little doubt that orchid+bkb+shiva+refresher qop brings a lot more to the table than orchid+bkb+shiva+mkb qop f.e.
|
leave puck alone. it only takes one meta change to bring puck back to life even without direct changes to the hero. hes still the best at what he does, which is doing consistent damage, crowd controlling and being impossible to kill. sooner or later heroes like puck will become popular again and then we will see blink euls hex on puck and everyone will cry for nerfs because you cant kill him and hes too annoying
|
On December 14 2015 11:40 evilfatsh1t wrote:
leave puck alone. it only takes one meta change to bring puck back to life even without direct changes to the hero. hes still the best at what he does, which is doing consistent damage, crowd controlling and being impossible to kill. sooner or later heroes like puck will become popular again and then we will see blink euls hex on puck and everyone will cry for nerfs because you cant kill him and hes too annoying
I don't really see Puck doing consistent damage at all. It's not very high, it is on a relatively long cds and high manacosts. There is no way Puck comes even close in consistent damage to heroes who are good at it, like DP, lesh, qop or even necro. Puck is entirely about the burst from the first round of spells.
|
the only heroes that do good spell damage on a consistent basis is dp out of the ones you listed.
lesh's only ranged spell got nerfed and qop and necro requires you to get close to everything.
no one can do 2 spells worth of damage every 10 seconds with a 99% guarantee that you will get out safely.
trying to go high ground vs a puck who doesnt worry about mana is way harder than trying to go high ground vs a qop or a necro
|
On January 02 2016 13:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the only heroes that do good spell damage on a consistent basis is dp out of the ones you listed.
lesh's only ranged spell got nerfed and qop and necro requires you to get close to everything.
no one can do 2 spells worth of damage every 10 seconds with a 99% guarantee that you will get out safely.
trying to go high ground vs a puck who doesnt worry about mana is way harder than trying to go high ground vs a qop or a necro
Except for the fact that lesh only spamming the nerfed lightning storm still deals more dps than Pucks q+w-combo. Ofc that means that Lesh is in 800 range every 4 seconds, but lesh can just double his sustained damage output if he goes in, wich Puck can't. He also doesn't need to go b2b after throwing out 3 lightnings, so Puck's real cd is a lot higher than his 13 sec cd on rift.
IF just buffed offlane (again), we won't see the comeback of the midlane initiation. I don't get why you are fighting against buffing a hero that has been bad for years now. IF just buffed her and she's still bad. Especially with all the purges in the game.
Puck is the 8th worst hero in pubs atm and is at 7%p/b with 50% wr in pro matches. 5 out of 14 of her games were on Alliance in WCA, where [A] went 10:6 overall with a 3:2 record on Puck. So even from the tournament winning team s4-Puck isn't anything fearsome.
|
because buffing everything that is shit isnt the solution to balancing a game. you keep on buffing everything and eventually we will see a game that is no different to lol. implementations of new mechanics such as scaling damage and bigger numbers overall.
|
Idk about this "has been bad for years" talk. Puck was one of the most picked heroes of all the western top teams just one year ago with Fear, Fata and s4 constantly playing it.
|
On January 02 2016 17:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:
because buffing everything that is shit isnt the solution to balancing a game. you keep on buffing everything and eventually we will see a game that is no different to lol. implementations of new mechanics such as scaling damage and bigger numbers overall.
IF has been buffing everything all the time. His patches always have a slight powercreep and his cds go down all the time but rarely up. IF usually nerfs two meta-heroes and buffs 40 more.
So your solution is just to keep everything shit and wait for a complete meta reversal? Never buff anything to keep the game "pure"?
On January 02 2016 21:20 spudde123 wrote:
Idk about this "has been bad for years" talk. Puck was one of the most picked heroes of all the western top teams just one year ago with Fear, Fata and s4 constantly playing it.
Ok, Puck's p/b is less than 25% for about a year now (peaking in the last patch at 1.7%). Before that she was at 27% and before that she hovered pretty stable between 30% and 55% p/b, so I guess she wasn't forgotten for years, just for the last one. Before she was at ~40%, but her winrate was never anything to write books about (mostly 0.4-0.5).
|
you dont need direct buffs to the hero to bring it back to life. tweaking things elsewhere cause enough changes throughout the game that directly tweaking heroes arent always necessary. an easy example of this would be the lane and bounty changes and how it brought about the 6.85 meta in the first place. and dont try and tell me that it was buffs to tusk or someshit that brought the meta about, cause it wasnt.
puck isnt a shit hero at its current state, he just doesnt flourish in the current meta. tweak shit here and there and things will change and puck may be brought back to life without needing to touch the hero. you sound like a child crying for a new toy from his mummy with your simplistic approach to game balancing. yes buffs are a part of patching, but there are better ways to change the game than to just keep giving powerups to everything.
the fact that i even have to explain this is embarrassing enough already
|
you can't deny icefrog's tendency to power creep slightly throughout patches. The heros today are, on average, stronger than they were back in the days for sure.
that being said I don't think puck needs a direct buff. He's already one of the best laners mid (on par with viper), give him any buff he can basically become extremely OP
|
On January 03 2016 03:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:
you dont need direct buffs to the hero to bring it back to life. tweaking things elsewhere cause enough changes throughout the game that directly tweaking heroes arent always necessary. an easy example of this would be the lane and bounty changes and how it brought about the 6.85 meta in the first place. and dont try and tell me that it was buffs to tusk or someshit that brought the meta about, cause it wasnt.
puck isnt a shit hero at its current state, he just doesnt flourish in the current meta. tweak shit here and there and things will change and puck may be brought back to life without needing to touch the hero. you sound like a child crying for a new toy from his mummy with your simplistic approach to game balancing. yes buffs are a part of patching, but there are better ways to change the game than to just keep giving powerups to everything.
the fact that i even have to explain this is embarrassing enough already
If you actually read what I wrote, you would have seen that I already talked about how Puck is precisely bad atm because of the changes to the game mechanics. Guess reading is harder than writing insults.
The last few patches brought richer supports/general power creep in the form of more gold/minute, comeback-mechanics and more killgold for assisting people. While most of these changes were toned down a bit, they still are in the game and will probably continue to do so. It's the aoe-gold that created the 6.85 meta and as a result the 6.86 meta.
Puck is foremost a tempo controller and relies on snowballing, so the general exp and gold creep is terrible for him. Aoe-bounty however is awesome for heroes that can fight well early, one of the reasons why hard carries have pretty much vanished from the pro scene and gyro is the most picked hero in 6.86 so far.
So the current meta is actually really good for fighting mids like Puck. The top 2 mid picks in pro matches atm are Invoker and QoP. Puck? Nowhere in sight. The reason these tempo mids do well and Puck does not is because they got buffed a lot to be still viable while IF creeped the living hell out of supports (the things tempo mids farm). If IF changed the meta to something more lategame oriented these heroes would fall of a cliff.
It's because I'm calculating the game mechanics in that I'm thinking of a way to make Puck viable. The meta isn't the problem, Puck should be awesome atm.
|
not sure why you thought i didnt get your message the first time, because i did. its just irrelevant to my post. you would know this if you could read yourself, because your whole post just goes completely off tangent to my point which is puck doesnt need to be touched. you can bring up as many stats as you want to help your argument but its pointless because you barely touch on my main point. essentially youre saying other heroes got buffed and puck has been left behind, which is why puck must be buffed.
i have already said that you can indirect buffs are enough to bring a hero back to life and therefore puck doesnt need to be touched. hes good enough already, and any buff to puck to make him 'viable' would probably just make him too strong, like evan said.
you can go find more stats and try and refute my claim that indirect buffs will be enough for puck but im not gonna bother responding and repeating myself anyway
|
On January 03 2016 11:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:
not sure why you thought i didnt get your message the first time, because i did. its just irrelevant to my post. you would know this if you could read yourself, because your whole post just goes completely off tangent to my point which is puck doesnt need to be touched. you can bring up as many stats as you want to help your argument but its pointless because you barely touch on my main point. essentially youre saying other heroes got buffed and puck has been left behind, which is why puck must be buffed.
i have already said that you can indirect buffs are enough to bring a hero back to life and therefore puck doesnt need to be touched. hes good enough already, and any buff to puck to make him 'viable' would probably just make him too strong, like evan said.
you can go find more stats and try and refute my claim that indirect buffs will be enough for puck but im not gonna bother responding and repeating myself anyway
I'm not posting in the tidehunter or enigma thread because I can see your point for those heroes. Indirect buffs can bring both back. But you have to change the game by a lot more to bring Puck back and not overbuff similar heroes. Tbh I expect a kill gold reversal or a creep gold buff for the next patch, which would both hurt Puck.
But if you don't want to discuss the only point you made, whatever.
|
On January 02 2016 17:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:
because buffing everything that is shit isnt the solution to balancing a game. you keep on buffing everything and eventually we will see a game that is no different to lol. implementations of new mechanics such as scaling damage and bigger numbers overall.
LoL is not comparable to a power creeped Dota. It has generally higher cds, lower damage, lower range, and shorter disable duration on the majority of its spells. It's more like Dota pre level 6 the entire game.
On topic though Puck is not even a tier 3 pick right now and since it it's a hero that absolutelyeveryone has been familiar with for years it's nothing to do with that (like how techies was underpicked or how earth spirit currently is now)
|
It's sad, Puck is easily one of my favorite characters but it feels so hard to win with him these days. The only times I pick him are when I'm playing with lowbie friends, usually in the offlane.
I know this is unconventional and normally not how you'd play the hero, but do you guys have any suggestions on what items to pick up when you need more right-click damage late game? Obviously, if you are relying on Puck for right clicks late game you are in a pretty dire place. But we've all had those games where a carry who had all the space in the world shows up to the lategame with a HotD, crystalys and half a black king bar.
The thing is puck's attack speed sucks SO much and his slow turn rate makes hectic fights tricky. I've been opting for a Desolator in these situations, praying that it will hopefully increase the damage output of my underfarmed team mates.
|
something like mjollnir probably
|
Can Puck turn in Phase Shift? ie Click to turn 180 but Phase Shift before complete turn. Where is Puck facing when s/he comes out?
|
I didn't think so, but after hopping into a lobby to test it out he does continue turning while in his phase shift. You can even see the little directional arrow rotate beneath him.
|
puck turns in phase shift like how magnus can turn during reverse polarity.
issue the command before you phase shift and puck will appear facing that direction
|
What's the deal with veil first puck. Your damage is high enough early on, and I'd say you always are better off with an earlier blink. A late blink on puck makes you lose out on so many playmaking opportunities.
|
On June 04 2016 04:12 DucK- wrote:
What's the deal with veil first puck. Your damage is high enough early on, and I'd say you always are better off with an earlier blink. A late blink on puck makes you lose out on so many playmaking opportunities.
I don't remember which pro said on stream it was an amazing farming item on puck because it allowed to instantly blow up creeps wave.
|
On June 04 2016 04:12 DucK- wrote:
What's the deal with veil first puck. Your damage is high enough early on, and I'd say you always are better off with an earlier blink. A late blink on puck makes you lose out on so many playmaking opportunities.
Thats what i thought too and then i tried it out once and was convinced. I mean it rly depends on the game i think but dont underestimate the laning/farming advantage and solo kill potiential/teamfight dmg with the right combo an early veil gives u and how many times a blink dagger isnt "needed" during the most early game fights if u hide/tp in properly
|
The extra HP & armor also makes a big difference early on I find and makes you just a little bit harder to kill.
It's one of those things where you can probably get veil -> blink faster in most cases than you could get blink -> 1 item.
|
If puck had farming/solo killing problems, I'd buy your arguments. But nope the hero clears waves easily, and can pick off squishy supports fairly easily with blink. The gain from veil feels too weak to justify the delaying of blink, which may cost you team fights because you lack mobility or good initiations.
|
The new veil is incredible on any farming hero with a bit of magical damage.
On Puck you want veil blink radiance octarine. 8min veil into a 12min blink 19min radi 25min octa.
|
Puck does have a very slight flash clearing problems doesn't he?
Orb + Silence is 560 damage. After the first upgrade melee creeps have 562 hp.
By having Veil you don't need to hit every melee creep once, which sounds minor but does actually make a reasonable difference in the time it takes to clear a wave. There's also the extra mana and hp regen to sustain better too.
Like in general it's a great item on Puck in a lot of games and if you're going to build it, you should probably build it first to dominate your lane as much as possible & because it helps accelerate your early farm. Your blink timing is slower, but I think you'll have blink + veil much faster if you build the veil first over blink first.
|
No doubt you get both faster. But as several games in the major has shown, delaying that blink means you can't take so many fights well, while also leaving you vulnerable because of your lack of mobility. Its a window when hitting a multi hero silence wins you fights.
|
Radiance on Puck? Isn't that hero normally played as an initiator/disabler? That almost seems to meme-y but I'm intrigued. Can you tell me more about that build?
|
On June 04 2016 08:23 Logo wrote:
Puck does have a very slight flash clearing problems doesn't he?
Orb + Silence is 560 damage. After the first upgrade melee creeps have 562 hp.
By having Veil you don't need to hit every melee creep once, which sounds minor but does actually make a reasonable difference in the time it takes to clear a wave. There's also the extra mana and hp regen to sustain better too.
Like in general it's a great item on Puck in a lot of games and if you're going to build it, you should probably build it first to dominate your lane as much as possible & because it helps accelerate your early farm. Your blink timing is slower, but I think you'll have blink + veil much faster if you build the veil first over blink first.
With intelligence giving percentage damage to nukes, Puck doesn't have that problem.
|
On June 04 2016 12:04 NAwk wrote:
Radiance on Puck? Isn't that hero normally played as an initiator/disabler? That almost seems to meme-y but I'm intrigued. Can you tell me more about that build?
Radiance is just a very good item so if you have no heroes rushing it you should go for it.
And with veil you actually farm so fast that you can get it at a decent timing.
All of pucks damage is magical, veil makes you destroy any support or any hero when you have a +1.
|
On June 04 2016 12:31 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 08:23 Logo wrote:
Puck does have a very slight flash clearing problems doesn't he?
Orb + Silence is 560 damage. After the first upgrade melee creeps have 562 hp.
By having Veil you don't need to hit every melee creep once, which sounds minor but does actually make a reasonable difference in the time it takes to clear a wave. There's also the extra mana and hp regen to sustain better too.
Like in general it's a great item on Puck in a lot of games and if you're going to build it, you should probably build it first to dominate your lane as much as possible & because it helps accelerate your early farm. Your blink timing is slower, but I think you'll have blink + veil much faster if you build the veil first over blink first.
With intelligence giving percentage damage to nukes, Puck doesn't have that problem.
He still should after the 2nd upgrade right? It'd take 5% spell bonus to clear 574 hp melee creeps.
But yeah I don't think build eclipses the other, depending on your lane and game.
|
People thinking Puck absolutly need a blink dagger to gank are wrong.
Veil makes your whole team deal more damage and makes your lane easier.
veil blink is definitly better than blink veil.
|
Do you really want radiance on a hero that gets gibbed if they're in the middle of a team fight for more than a few seconds? I feel like the aura will hit pretty much.. no one.... if you don't want to die?
|
Well Puck only gets gibbed in the middle of a team fight if you play him wrong... so ye
|
On June 05 2016 02:09 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
Do you really want radiance on a hero that gets gibbed if they're in the middle of a team fight for more than a few seconds? I feel like the aura will hit pretty much.. no one.... if you don't want to die?
If radiance burns while phaseshifting it's great. Puck is often the last survivor of the teamfights because he's really slippery. The hero lacks damage, not survivability.
|
You don't absolutely need blink, but it makes ganking a lot easier. There are situations where you are the sole initiator on the team at some points in game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
