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GtC
United States546 Posts
On December 07 2015 09:48 Crimson wrote: Giving puck a 3 second or longer duration on phase shift would all but guarantee a blink dagger escape. There is a reason it was brought below 3 a while ago. It's currently still above 3 seconds. He's talking about rescaling so that the earlier levels are stronger. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote: Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect. i disagree. we are not seeing bkbs as early as before anymore, often only as a 3rd item and there is enough time for a mid puck to farm blink-aghs before anyone has bkb. sure he could have a shivas or hex if aghs would go through bkb but i dont think one more item gives this hero the push it needs. | ||
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gaijindash
Japan376 Posts
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote: Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect. This is pretty much it. They need to either give puck more effective damage with her combo, or some other utility like a blind, longer silence, something that makes coil/rift more disable, lower cooldown etc. because at the moment puck is mediocre at both. Ive actually always liked this hero, slardar is kind of played in a similar way with blink nowadays. I think the solution is to give her more effective utility, because at the moment you can just pick qop or slardar and they can basicaly do everything a puck can but better. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
Then again, I would rather see other carry mids get nerfed maybe through 6.86 jungle changes. No tempo mids certainly make the game less exciting. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 07 2015 12:35 DucK- wrote: Nah. The main issue with Puck isn't its early game, but its impact in mid game when heroes have BKB. I think just having Coil work against BKB targets is good enough, basically not requiring Agha for the effect. This was always an "issue", even when Puck was good. It's a perennial weakness of the hero that the hero was able to overcome. It's like saying CM's main issue is her low base MS--while it's true that it's a significant weakness, it's not the deciding factor in the hero being good or bad because whenever the hero is good, her other strengths are more than good enough to overcome that characteristic weakness. It's only the shift away from tempo mid laners that forced Puck out of having a good place in the game. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
unless she gets something that pierces bkb, the moment enemy carries pick theirs up, she's more or less done. sure you could go blink agha, but then you have no other utility and vulnerable to silences as well. even before agha, most of the cores she'd be fighting against can usually stand and manfight, hopefully buying enough time for a rotation. honestly the more i think about it, the more i like the idea i presented on the previous page, giving her a blind. if that wasn't purgable by bkb, i think that change alone would make her a strong offlaner. not only are you holding heroes in place, you're making it difficult for them to manfight until help arrives. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8711 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On December 08 2015 12:16 evilfatsh1t wrote: giving lina and qop bkb piercing ulties was stupid. now we have to give bkb piercing ulties to everyone to make them viable. soon there will be a new bkb which doesnt get pierced by bkb piercing skills Giving Lina and QoP bkb piercing ulties did however keep them relevant in a time where most other tempo controllers fell off. OD and Puck still haven't found their place. I agree with the tendency that bkb nowadays is a being pierced by too many spells. But tbh I think it's mainly an issue when a bkb piercing disable is on a support like wyvern and less when it's on heroes that are played as #2 that bring mainly spells to the table. Because you really don't want your core to be entirely unable to fight against the enemies core because he's countered by a single item. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8711 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 08 2015 13:27 Blackfeather wrote: Giving Lina and QoP bkb piercing ulties did however keep them relevant in a time where most other tempo controllers fell off. OD and Puck still haven't found their place. It's hard to attribute Lina's rise to just her BKB-piercing ulti when she got buffed for like 5 versions straight. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
I'm personally against the trend of everything piercing BKB. I'd be disappointed if puck became part of that. I don't mind the current aghs - it could even be buffed a little more, like making the ministun pierce as well - but it would be a shame if he got the lina/qop treatment. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
wow ur gonna get stunned for 4 seconds after completing ur tp wowee | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
I think the contempt towards bkb-piercing abilities is mainly a result of the number of exceptions to the rule. honestly, based on the trends in the changes being made to some of the spells, I think Icefrog is trying to move towards a completely different vision of bkb and part of that process is slowly changing the interactions so that when the switch happens, all of the little things are easier to process instead of making massive, sweeping changes all at once to spell interactions with Avatar. for instance, while we have physical and magic damage, when you cast a spell, its interaction with bkb could be based off of what kind of spell it is, organized categorically. so for instance, you could say a spell is "damaging" (dragon slave) vs "stunning" (storm hammer) vs "slowing" (viper strike) vs "silencing" (waning rift) vs "blinding" (kotl's 'blinding light' I think its called?) if organized categorically and applying a rule to each category (such as, when cast on a bkb target, slowing spells do not deal magic damage, but their slow is still applied) and sticking to that rule will not only make more sense but it will also make hero balance slightly easier (IMO) because when you change a spell, you know it can only have one possible interaction with BKB. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote: the fact of the matter is that bkb, as an item, prevents heroes like puck from being pickable because of her reliance on disabling and controlling non-bkb carrying heroes. its not just a puck problem either and tbh it needs to be addressed on many heroes, not just puck. If this were true, then how was Puck ever pickable in the past when BKB has only ever consistently gotten weaker over the years of DotA's existence as a game? How was Puck one of the top few mids in the game in a version where BKB was STRONGER than it is now? Again, Puck's kit having a hard time dealing with BKB has always been a weakness, but it's never been one that actively stopped him from being a good hero. The only systemic trend that pushed Puck out of the game is tempo heroes getting pushed out of mid lane and unlike other heroes in a similar position, Puck doesn't translate as well to being an offlaner or support. I agree with Belisarius' post from the previous page, that there's essentially two directions to take Puck: make him scale enough with farm to be good mid again, or make him good enough offlane to be worth running there. I also have a preference toward the latter over the former (Puck's power growth already fits the offlane more naturally than mid, as he'd still have a preference for Blink first, and starting to develop the game with it). | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On December 09 2015 04:29 TheYango wrote: If this were true, then how was Puck ever pickable in the past when BKB has only ever consistently gotten weaker over the years of DotA's existence as a game? How was Puck one of the top few mids in the game in a version where BKB was STRONGER than it is now? Again, Puck's kit having a hard time dealing with BKB has always been a weakness, but it's never been one that actively stopped him from being a good hero. The only systemic trend that pushed Puck out of the game is tempo heroes getting pushed out of mid lane and unlike other heroes in a similar position, Puck doesn't translate as well to being an offlaner or support. I agree with Belisarius' post from the previous page, that there's essentially two directions to take Puck: make him scale enough with farm to be good mid again, or make him good enough offlane to be worth running there. I also have a preference toward the latter over the former (Puck's power growth already fits the offlane more naturally than mid, as he'd still have a preference for Blink first, and starting to develop the game with it). Because when tempo controlling mids and puck were popular, there was no comeback gold/xp. Now, when you pick these heroes your turning your mid lane into a liability. Will you dominate hard enough and control the game well enough so that your safe lane carry can finish the game safely? Because if you dont and you take a bad teamfight, you have 2 enemy cores that don't give a damn they're dream coiled that just picked up their bkb from any kills and enemy supports just got enough levels and maybe enough money to be a factor when they weren't before. Tempo controlling heroes are not desirable bc their tempo means nothing when you lose that fight and teams equalize in terms of gold and xp. Earning half the gold towards a bkb is massive against puck. So are items like guardian greaves (supports can purge silence) and items like solar crest which can really hurts solo carries if you don't have multiple sources of dmg to put on a high value target. Specifically pertaining to the hero though..as a result of the above, imo, i agree. puck's kit definitely needs to be suited for an offlane role and as such, she probably needs something to stay relevant when bkbs come out like a blind or slow that you can't purge off or pierces but can be purged. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2015 05:38 BluemoonSC wrote: Specifically pertaining to the hero though..as a result of the above, imo, i agree. puck's kit definitely needs to be suited for an offlane role and as such, she probably needs something to stay relevant when bkbs come out like a blind or slow that you can't purge off or pierces but can be purged. See, I don't see why you feel this is necessary for Puck to be relevant as an offlaner. This isn't necessary for an offlaner to be good, and it's probably not the right approach to the hero. Relevance as an offlaner right now is tied heavily to either how much farm/control over the lane the hero has (e.g. DS, Broodmother, Undying), and more commonly the pressure they exert on mid lane at level 3-5 (e.g. Slardar, Tusk, Earthshaker, NS, SB). Some of these heroes have tools vs. BKB, but many do not. The issue with Puck in the offlane isn't the lack of an option against BKBs, but the fact that he does neither of these things. He is neither an oppressive laner (and unlike many of these is even worse in 2vX lanes) nor does he contribute any pre-6 pressure on mid lane. Giving Puck a goes-through-BKB anything will help his offlane capacity less than improving either of these aspects of the hero such as stronger laning through base stat/skill buffs or addition of a slow to Orb/Waning to improve pre-6 lane pressure on mid. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On December 09 2015 05:45 TheYango wrote: Tempo controlling heroes still exist Bluemoon, it's just that they're all offlaners because offlane in the current game has enough resources to support the minimal demands of such a hero getting their first major item (which is really all those heroes really need, same as Puck). See, I don't see why you feel this is necessary for Puck to be relevant as an offlaner. This isn't necessary for an offlaner to be good, and it's probably not the right approach to the hero. Relevance as an offlaner right now is tied heavily to either how much farm/control over the lane the hero has (e.g. DS, Broodmother, Undying), and more commonly the pressure they exert on mid lane at level 3-5 (e.g. Slardar, Tusk, Earthshaker, NS, SB). Some of these heroes have tools vs. BKB, but many do not. The issue with Puck in the offlane isn't the lack of an option against BKBs, but the fact that he does neither of these things. He is neither an oppressive laner (and unlike many of these is even worse in 2vX lanes) nor does he contribute any pre-6 pressure on mid lane. Giving Puck a goes-through-BKB anything will help his offlane capacity less than improving either of these aspects of the hero such as stronger laning through base stat/skill buffs or addition of a slow to Orb/Waning to improve pre-6 lane pressure on mid. all of those heroes you mention have some other form of utility and can do something else either in a team fight or on their own when enemy cores get magic immunity. i don't think saying that 'many do not' is true. additionally, yes, i agree that she needs a pre-6 buff but i also think that she needs a buff to her skillset later in the game. as the game progresses, puck is much less relevant than, say, a magnus or a slardar. | ||
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