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United States47024 Posts
On May 07 2013 02:55 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 02:03 Sn0_Man wrote:On May 07 2013 01:57 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Question: Is OD actually that great of a mid outside of counter picking certain intelligence heroes? I find I can never control runes with him. Just played mid vs a TA and I got out harassed and always had the lane pushed up to my tower, which meant I had to last hit under tower for a lot of the time and could never contest runes without losing CS. Yes, he really is. Just put the TA in jail every time it's off cooldown (Skip orb btw). TA can't cast refraction with 13 mana and without refraction she can't out-lasthit your 80+ damage. Rune control doesn't mean much when her max mana doesn't even allow her to cast refraction regardless of bottle charges. If you notice she is pushing then spend extra time auto-attacking her creeps whenever there isn't a last-hit being contested. TA is however a very strong mid so it's not like a complete blowout the way it is vs virtually every int hero. PS: I know OD has bad range but TA has worse so you can abuse that too. She is super squishy without refraction up. She should die to ult at 6 as well (so long as she doesn't refract it ofc). I still got outlaned from her having every rune tho. I know bottle crowing mitigates a lot of her harass but it's not something I like to rely on in all pick (that game we didnt have a flying couri till 13 minutes)
You shouldn't buy Bottle on OD. Buy Tranquils if you need them and break them for Mek later, or just go directly for Treads if you are ahead.
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220g to be able to bottle crow is a bargain. Fly your own courier if you need it (especially as a very strong last-hitter like OD who is very unlikely to be shut out of last-hits). Yeah the support *should* do it but if they aren't that doesn't mean you should suffer.
But yeah, don't actually buy bottle on OD. That was just an example.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing in that matchup is that you do not need to play afraid and eat free Blades harass. Your base stats are categorically better than hers (higher armor, higher damage, higher HP--you even have higher Agi until level 3). She cannot outtrade you unless she has Refraction--but she also can't out-lasthit you without Refraction so you force her to choose between using her Refraction charges to fight you or to lasthit.
Just don't stand somewhere where you're going to eat free Blades spill damage, and if she chooses to attack you directly, fight her back. You have longer range and higher damage/armor. If she has Refraction up, don't fight her for lasthits, but if she has Refraction down, make sure you take every one (you should have an 8+ damage advantage immediately from level 1).
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On May 07 2013 03:12 TheYango wrote:
The thing in that matchup is that you do not need to play afraid and eat free Blades harass. Your base stats are categorically better than hers (higher armor, higher damage, higher HP--you even have higher Agi until level 3). She cannot outtrade you unless she has Refraction--but she also can't out-lasthit you without Refraction so you force her to choose between using her Refraction charges to fight you or to lasthit.
Just don't stand somewhere where you're going to eat free Blades spill damage, and if she chooses to attack you directly, fight her back. You have longer range and higher damage/armor. If she has Refraction up, don't fight her for lasthits, but if she has Refraction down, make sure you take every one (you should have an 8+ damage advantage immediately from level 1).
Thanks for the tips. I buy bottle because I often find myself getting harassed out of lane without it by bottle crowers. Just need to play better I guess.
As for runes, should I just accept that I'll lose CS trying to contest them?
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United States47024 Posts
Ideally your supports will just take the runes because you don't really use them anyway, but most supports don't check runes that diligently. If they don't you should use your best judgment on how much CS you're going to lose vs. the value of the rune you're getting.
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How do you value an 'unknown' rune in the situation where only one rune spot is warded? Nothing worse than losing a bunch of CS for a regen when you're both at full hp/mana or invis when neither mid can gank.
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Regen lets you throw away hp and mana to pressure your opponent, as well as free spells while using it. Unless your opponents gains a critical xp advantage it's really not that bad.
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On May 07 2013 04:58 Alur wrote:
Regen lets you throw away hp and mana to pressure your opponent, as well as free spells while using it. Unless your opponents gains a critical xp advantage it's really not that bad.
Regen only makes up for HP/Mana retroactively spent unless you have a bottle (which OD doesn't based on advice in this thread); should have made that point clearer in my post though.
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Yeah you shouldn't need too much healing vs a TA. Instead of spamming AI you could hold it just as the TA is going to last hit, then prison and steal the CS.
OD is similar to an Exort Invoker middle, you want to stay in the lane and farm more as opposed to contesting runes. If there are no wards I wouldn't gamble and leave the lane. You could thief runes by Astral Imprisoning the other mid right before the rune, as long as you have the MS advantage over TA she can't do anything pre traps.
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On May 07 2013 04:32 Logo wrote:
How do you value an 'unknown' rune in the situation where only one rune spot is warded? Nothing worse than losing a bunch of CS for a regen when you're both at full hp/mana or invis when neither mid can gank.
it depends on what rune spawned before (same rune doesnt spawn twice), and if someone else is gonna get it (side lanes/other team could use it, allow next rune to spawn)
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On May 07 2013 04:32 Logo wrote:
How do you value an 'unknown' rune in the situation where only one rune spot is warded? Nothing worse than losing a bunch of CS for a regen when you're both at full hp/mana or invis when neither mid can gank.
If there's one rune spot warded; you can push the wave to the tower at .45 to camp the rune spot not warded
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How do I beat QoP with Tinker mid? I was thinking maybe I should bottle crow really hard so I can spam laser and rockets on her, but other than that I have no idea.
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laser/rocket tinker actually does pretty good against qop
laser whenever qop comes in to lasthit or harass you. try not to rocket too much, the mana cost is a bit prohibitive
be careful around 6, because qop gets you very low with her full combo. if you're at full health with at least 1~2 bottle charges you actually beat her if she blinks on you though, just laser her quickly
you'll probably have to bottle crow a few times, but it shouldn't be too bad
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On May 07 2013 10:33 Shootemup. wrote:
How do I beat QoP with Tinker mid? I was thinking maybe I should bottle crow really hard so I can spam laser and rockets on her, but other than that I have no idea.
As mentioned the old style tinker build of 4 points laser 4 points rocket before anything (except ulti if you can get your bots up before lvl 8) does pretty well just by nuking the qop down. People underestimate the power of laser dealing pure damage. The drawback is of course that you lose your pushing and farming ability via march of the machines which has been emphasized more lately in the metagame. On the flip side you can be a super-ganking mid that can pretty much 1 shot many supports with your combo.
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United States47024 Posts
I actually wouldn't say March Tinker is "emphasized more lately in the metagame". Many of the G-1 league games where Tinker was used actually featured the traditional Laser/Rocket Tinker and not March Tinker since it is stronger in lane and in ganks. The game is a lot less push-oriented than it was in 6.74 (when March Tinker was really popular) and teams have learned to disrupt the Ancient stacking where March Tinker really picks up its farm.
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I should qualify that I haven't been keeping up with the Chinese scene. Good to hear it's still in use. I miss the laser rocket tinker =(
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How should you lane Elder Titan? I want to try him out now, but I guess I should just dual lane him with someone who could set up something off of sleep (I'm thinking AA).
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United States47024 Posts
On May 07 2013 13:44 Whole wrote:
How should you lane Elder Titan? I want to try him out now, but I guess I should just dual lane him with someone who could set up something off of sleep (I'm thinking AA).
You mid/off-lane the same with Mag does. Bottle-crow and spam Spirit for last-hits/harassing your opponent.
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What do you gain from putting titan mid or offlane, as opposed to running him as a support? I don't see him as being level dependant in the least bit, and he has no real need for farm beyond mana boots. He's different from magnus who is best in mid or offlane because faster levels and farm really augments his effectiveness. Without manaboots and blink (or another initiating item) magnus can't do his job as well. Titan's skills are nice for ganking for sure, but isn't particularly better at it than any other hero. However, compared to supports, he has a large aoe 2 second sleep at level 2, and a large aoe 3 second sleep at level 3. In a trilane that can open up a lot of possibilities for kills, or can perhaps stop an opposing kill attempt. His ult is essentially no more effective with extra points in it than it is at level 1.
I'm not saying he can't mid or offlane, I just don't see a reason for why you would ever choose him to be your mid or offlane hero. I don't think he adds anything to your team with farm or level priority more than any other hero who can mid or offlane.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
I don't know much about the hero (didn't watch Dota 1 when he was became metagame relevant) but ask yourself, what does he offer as support? Spirit doesn't really do anything, his disable is mediocre at best. He doesn't offer anything at level 1 and is melee so cannot effectively harass opponents out of the lane. He needs levels for his aura to be useful. He doesn't have much of a mana pool either so is also somewhat item dependent.
Compare that to the usefulness that he offers with fast levels with a fast ultimate etc. He can run around with what is effectively Naga's ultimate on a short cooldown, helping ganks with easy positioning etc.
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EPT
