EPT[Hero] Anti-Mage - Page 18
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GtC
United States546 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 16 2015 11:07 GtC wrote: AM rarely has max spell shield by his 3rd big item. AM's almost always prefer stats after getting a value point in it. Value!? I mean, if a magical EHP of AM without spell shield is X, then lvl1 spell shield results in 1.35X magical EHP, lvl2 in 1.51X, lvl3 in 1.72X and lvl4 in 2X. Does not sound like lvl1 is value point at all, even though it gives 1/3rd of the benefit . I mean, i skip it for stats just like next guy, but lvl1 spell shield barely sounds like a "value" point. | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
Also, just because a skill scales really well doesn't mean the first point is bad for value. Rubick's null field, albeit an aura, offers less magic resist when maxed than AM's level 1 spell shield. | ||
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Clarty
Australia162 Posts
I usually go butter or abyssal after manta, sometimes even casual basher -> heart is better than going straight heart. By doing this you get a lot more farm and you have disgusting solo kill potential which you won't have with a heart build, especially against cancerous meta picks like storm, jugg, troll and sniper you need the abyssal to hold them in place while you one shot them with mana void at the start of fights. All heart will do in that situation is allow you to blink out which is pointless as you will just be useless in the fight anyway. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 16 2015 11:17 GtC wrote: By value I mean that improving your strength gain from 1 to 3 per level is usually more useful than additional magic resistance. I mean, let's be honest, the actual trade-off tank-wise here is between 114 HP and increasing your magical EHP in 1.5 times in part of the game where nukes are still notable, especially on illusions. Stats kind of ease up farming due to bonus agility and mana/mana regen though. I mean, at times i regularly catch myself seeing how AM's get bursted down by magical nukes and find it sort of ironic. Also, just because a skill scales really well doesn't mean the first point is bad for value. Rubick's null field, albeit an aura, offers less magic resist when maxed than AM's level 1 spell shield. Well, true, the lvl1 point of spell shield is not bad at all, but the value it adds is worthy of a single "standard" nuke in midgame. | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
On March 16 2015 11:20 lolfail9001 wrote: I mean, let's be honest, the actual trade-off tank-wise here is between 114 HP and increasing your magical EHP in 1.5 times in part of the game where nukes are still notable, especially on illusions. Stats kind of ease up farming due to bonus agility and mana/mana regen though. In the current meta I would argue that your primary concern is having the hp to survive a stun or two while being whipped by jugg or troll though. Also, you usually get to the stats versus spell shield part at around bf/vlads/manta-ish, where you have maybe 1k hp. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 16 2015 11:25 GtC wrote: In the current meta I would argue that your primary concern is having the hp to survive a stun or two while being whipped by jugg or troll though. Also, you usually get to the stats versus spell shield part at around bf/vlads/manta-ish, where you have maybe 1k hp. In which case 114 HP ends up being deciding factor REALLY rarely and you could have skipped spell shield altogether (and think again about reasons for picking AM other than "we need hard carry oneoneone"). As for 1k HP, this just works as an argument for my side, because 114 HP is still a ~10% magical EHP improvement (and ~13% physical EHP one due to 6 agility). Let's be honest, the trispinity is pretty darn good against AM by-design. | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 16 2015 12:15 GtC wrote: When you have 1k hp I would say 114 hp ends up being the deciding factor an awful lot more than on most other heroes. Considering that the first point gives far more benefits than the other points I don't see much of a case for skipping spell shield altogether. You also pick an AM for his farm, split-push, and eventual ability, not because he has more magic resist than normal. As you point out 114 hp is still a significant improvement on his ability to survive magic damage and also gives additional physical resistance (I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make with that...). Yes the spinlords are good against AM, but really only in manfights before AM picks up a few items and in winning enough fights to beat the AM before he comes online. If AM's team does a good job stalling, the only who can still really be a problem lategame is troll or a really fat jugg. 1. While 114 HP matters more when you have 1k HP, the primary point being here is that it really depends on line-up of enemy, because if it can burst you down with magical combo, you will totally miss out on spell shield points. 2. Eh, picking AM just so he can get farmed sounds like a waste, there are like 4+ heroes not that far behind than AM farming wise (or even comparable to it) but that provide much more in other areas, unless you well, need to counter magical-damage heavy line-up without much control. 3. I didn't point out it is significant improvement on his ability to survive magical damage. If anything, i pointed out that spell shield at level1 is giving you an ability to freely soak up default magical damage nuke, but guess what that would rely you only getting hit by magical damage nukes, in which case not getting spell shield sounds like a waste. 4. As for trispinity relation, i would argue that Axe is decent against AM even in lategame, just on the back of ability to drag him into his team/help with focusing him with call + couple of force staves on main Axe/AM. | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
You don't pick him to get farm, you pick him to split push like an animal and hit 6 slot faster than anyone else in the game. He needs to be actively threatening the map. That's pretty much how he's always been played and still is | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Mana Break makes BF+Manta+Heart a strong point for your teamfighting strength, because there are a shitton of heroes that basically become glorified creeps when you hit them a few times and they go to zero mana. You actually expect to start fighting then, take map control, and go high with +1 item and Aegis a lot of the time. AM's arguably a lot more dangerous when he has BF+Manta+Heart/BKB than when he's 6 slotted a few minutes later, because a ton of mana-dependent heroes have had a chance to get BKBs or mana items, and supports that get blown up by Manta illusions have a chance to get Ghost Scepters. AM's never had the tools to fight pure man-fighting carries. His strength is his ability to blank heroes with Mana Break and having the mobility to threaten backline heroes so that you can instantly make like 2 enemy heroes useless and then clean up what's effectively a 5v3 against stronger manfight heroes that have a harder time threatening key heroes on your team. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:03 TheYango wrote: IDK where the idea that you need to be 6-slotted to hit your peak teamfight strength came from. Mana Break makes BF+Manta+Heart a strong point for your teamfighting strength, because there are a shitton of heroes that basically become glorified creeps when you hit them a few times and they go to zero mana. You actually expect to start fighting then, take map control, and go high with +1 item and Aegis a lot of the time. AM's arguably a lot more dangerous when he has BF+Manta+Heart/BKB than when he's 6 slotted a few minutes later, because a ton of mana-dependent heroes have had a chance to get BKBs or mana items, and supports that get blown up by Manta illusions have a chance to get Ghost Scepters. AM's never had the tools to fight pure man-fighting carries. His strength is his ability to blank heroes with Mana Break and having the mobility to threaten backline heroes so that you can instantly make like 2 enemy heroes useless and then clean up what's effectively a 5v3 against stronger manfight heroes that have a harder time threatening key heroes on your team. Yup. And generally be ahead in farm due to BF + blink. | ||
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LA_Morello
Brazil143 Posts
She becomes relevant way too early for you to consider existing at all. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On March 17 2015 11:52 LA_Morello wrote: Meh, playing AM against a PA who goes Treads/Phase --> Dominator --> BKB is an instant loss. She becomes relevant way too early for you to consider existing at all. if she doesn't go battlefury and keep up with you, you can split and solo roshans and get like 1.5 items ahead while she's killing team and taking towers at moderate pace; i dont think she's as scary as like troll as an am counter... both of them do pretty well against am though, cuz he can't really manfight at any point. | ||
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LA_Morello
Brazil143 Posts
On March 17 2015 12:27 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: if she doesn't go battlefury and keep up with you, you can split and solo roshans and get like 1.5 items ahead while she's killing team and taking towers at moderate pace; i dont think she's as scary as like troll as an am counter... both of them do pretty well against am though, cuz he can't really manfight at any point. I honestly find it much easier to play against a PA who goes Battlefury because most of the games you're basically trading farm against her. And, as an AM, you can outfarm her (or at least have BF-Manta-Heart at 26 minutes, or even go MKB first or maybe BF-Vlads-Manta at 23, idk). But if she goes helm-bkb, she is basically killing your team at 17~18 minutes while you, at best, have BF+Yasha or BF+Vlads and isn't ready to fight at all. I understood your post, maybe due to the lack of skill I'm not able to do it but most of the games where a PA go directly to BKB they are killing my barracks before or soon after I finish my Manta Style. And I can't manfight PA as I could if we were both, like, 4 slotted, which I feel much more comfortable to play against. | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
When you play against PA you should be hitting BF + yasha + vlads around 22minutes or so, which is about when the PA should be coming online. Just push like a madman and as long as they don't have a blink stun you are unkillable, they are forced to back a hero or 2, then continue farming or tp to where they just left and force a 5v4 or whatever. Get an mkb after your manta is done and then you can just manfight the PA and win unless she wins the RNG lottery with 3 crits in 6 attacks. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 18 2015 03:27 Varth wrote: Coming from a 4500 70% win rate AM player, here's no way she's getting helm bkb treads by 18minutes unless she was fed a kill or 2 + fantastic farming. That being said, AM completely hinges upon the player being very very good at last hitting until BF, because if you have a late BF timing it's much harder to take control of the game. Every minute earlier you get that BF enables you to get insane farm that much faster, BF timing is pretty much the most important thing for AM players. When you play against PA you should be hitting BF + yasha + vlads around 22minutes or so, which is about when the PA should be coming online. Just push like a madman and as long as they don't have a blink stun you are unkillable, they are forced to back a hero or 2, then continue farming or tp to where they just left and force a 5v4 or whatever. Get an mkb after your manta is done and then you can just manfight the PA and win unless she wins the RNG lottery with 3 crits in 6 attacks. Helm Bkb Treads 18 minutes in? That's around 500 GPM with aquilla/pms and hatchet. That's anything but fantastic farming, especially considering possbilities helm gives. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On March 18 2015 05:29 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: yeah i agree; HoD ancient stacking isn't as effective on non-BF PA either, clearing the stack takes quite awhile. 500 GPM at minute 18 isn't super easy. its achievable with just free farm tho and id rather stack a large camp with a dominated wildkin | ||
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