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United States47024 Posts
On January 31 2015 02:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I feel heart is a safe choice that doesn't improve your pushing that much (particularly if you have vlads already) nor does it directly improve your mainfighting/pickoffs the way an abyssal does.
This isn't really true for a couple reasons:
1) Sieging. Non-Heart Illusions are effectively useless for sieging because they blow up instantly to spells. Heart Illusions take considerable effort to kill, and can siege very effectively. Especially if the enemy team is unwilling to commit an important hero to kill them, they can do considerable tower damage even when you're not remotely nearby. The net result is more pushing pressure, because even if you push slower and do less damage, the enemy is forced to commit more meaningful heroes to kill illusions if they don't want to take constant tower damage (whereas against Basher or BFly illusions, a support's AoE skills are usually sufficient).
2) Heart Regen. Heart Regen is absolutely abusable for creating a ton of fighting/pickoff opportunities. The easiest use case is when the enemy team sends a core to stop you. Even if you can't necessarily win a manfight, you can go aggressive, attack them down to about 1/3 of your HP, then blink out and wait for Heart regen. Thanks to Mana Break, they'll have 0 mana, allowing your team a ton of potential advantageous engagements because Heart regen will have you at full HP even if you TP immediately to the fight, while the hero sent to stop you is forced to choose between entering the fight without mana, or TPing home and getting to the fight late/not at all.
Plus, as I mentioned before, having Illusions that don't instantly die is an enormous boon to your fighting ability, more so than a primary DPS item in most cases. You do have like 2 Diffusal Blades' worth of Feedback, after all.
Bulky illusions and Heart regen create a ton of opportunities for this hero to do things that are simply not possible with any other item. There's a reason why Heart is considered the "default" followup to BF Manta, and other choices are more situational adaptations.
On January 31 2015 02:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1196418082Here is a game I recently played, I'm about 4k. If I got a heart in this game I would of been not killable, but I chose abyssal to allow me to constantly threaten kills before TP's could get in, and as a result I am able to kill the dusa, mag pretty consistently and accelerate my following items.
Medusa's a special case because Stone Gaze kills illusions regardless of how tanky they are. I wouldn't generalize from that at all because of Medusa's specific strength at fighting illusions.
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Thanks for all the input. It definitely makes the itemization more straightforward.
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I don't typically find myself pushing towers with a manta with heroes around. Generally if you are knocking on T3's its because you are forcing a reaction, by the time I have them bottled up in their base defending against manta illusions I think you should be past the point of whats your 3rd item. I see your point, but since illusions get spell shield, even illusions with 1800 vs 2800 can survive a 300 damage magic nuke that most support could dish out. I think the butterfly will push harder even when considering support nuking power for that reason. With spell shield a magic nuke with amp/reduction should do about 600 damage to the illusion.
As for your second point, I generally get a vlads pretty much 100% of the time so regen is never really a problem, but if you don't have the vlads then you make a pretty good point about hit and running enemy cores, however I generally prefer to kill them, which since you should be decently fair ahead on an antimage, it shouldn't be too tall an order to kill the opposing 1 position in a 1v1 scenario. As for teamfighting, that's also a good point. An extra 1k hp would make your illusions harder to deal with, but you can still get kited if your team isn't holding people in place, but furthermore I think taking 5on5 fights isn't AM's strength. You push so hard and fast that you force the enemy to rush their action IE: try to push highground before you can take theirs, meaning they can't wait for a perfect initiation, or they need to respond to you. If you force them to respond, then you have stopped their push and maybe get a pickoff, if you force them to go in prematurely then you have created a scenario where you can TP in after most major spells have gone off.
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Are we talking about HoT? Heart is often the best 3rd item, particularly when you are ahead, because it makes you more or less unkillable, whereas basher will just improve your pickoff potential (not a problem when you're ahead) and won't help you tower push (which is what you should be doing if you're ahead). Heart will make you MUCH better in high ground pushes (you won't have to blink back as soon as some spells are cast on you). In even games where solo pickoffs are all you are getting, basher is usually better. Butterfly obviously works too if you're sufficiently ahead (so that they won't quickly get MKBs) and they have a lot of right click.
I recommend everybody buy treads before BF. The attack speed is really important when you move into the jungle, is helpful on lane and allows you to jungle with only RoH if you get shut down on lane. I really don't think going BF -> treads speeds up your farm in any significant way (because jungle farming is relatively slow with brown boots -> BF) and it weakens your lane/comeback potential a lot. When you have treads and BF, this is the time to blow up. It's almost always bad to fight at this point, because this is the stage of the game where you are going to farm 2x faster than any other hero, get a yasha in 2 minutes and be strong enough to solo towers (taking map control and eventually all their jungle camps/ancients). The only reason I like vlads before manta is if I'm planning to take the enemy ancients and solo roshan. You will have to judge how feasible this is based on their heroes and the way the game is going. You really shouldn't need the vlads sustain for split pushing or jungle farming, but if you're using it to full potential it can be a really good item.
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Hmm, maybe I will try more HoT's as my 3rd item.
But I agree about the treads. I generally go PMS (if required, skipped if not) treads/RoH so I can jungle and lane effectively. I sometimes also get the ring of regen if I'm sustaining a lot of harass because I can turn it into a vlads after my battlefury and it can keep your regen up so you don't get critically low from jungling some of the rougher camps earlier on. Generally I think its worth swapping it for the claymore to make jungling a bit faster, but against something like a bloodseeker the regen is probably more worthwhile.
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On January 31 2015 09:44 bardtown wrote:
Are we talking about HoT? Heart is often the best 3rd item, particularly when you are ahead, because it makes you more or less unkillable, whereas basher will just improve your pickoff potential (not a problem when you're ahead) and won't help you tower push (which is what you should be doing if you're ahead). Heart will make you MUCH better in high ground pushes (you won't have to blink back as soon as some spells are cast on you). In even games where solo pickoffs are all you are getting, basher is usually better. Butterfly obviously works too if you're sufficiently ahead (so that they won't quickly get MKBs) and they have a lot of right click.
I recommend everybody buy treads before BF. The attack speed is really important when you move into the jungle, is helpful on lane and allows you to jungle with only RoH if you get shut down on lane. I really don't think going BF -> treads speeds up your farm in any significant way (because jungle farming is relatively slow with brown boots -> BF) and it weakens your lane/comeback potential a lot. When you have treads and BF, this is the time to blow up. It's almost always bad to fight at this point, because this is the stage of the game where you are going to farm 2x faster than any other hero, get a yasha in 2 minutes and be strong enough to solo towers (taking map control and eventually all their jungle camps/ancients). The only reason I like vlads before manta is if I'm planning to take the enemy ancients and solo roshan. You will have to judge how feasible this is based on their heroes and the way the game is going. You really shouldn't need the vlads sustain for split pushing or jungle farming, but if you're using it to full potential it can be a really good item.
I had generally been feeling it out for whether to get treads or not. But if I'm picking antimage I would want a good trilane where I can get free farm. If I'm getting free farm I would not get treads until after BF, if I'm contested then I agree youre going to want those treads. But i find once i get the bf i can farm the treads in a heartbeat from jungle to lane farm. I really dont find that farming jungle with naked battlefury to be that slow. AM has great attack speed/ animation with nothing at all.
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Well, the treads allow you to do a lot more. As mentioned, treads/RoH lets you effectively farm the jungle inbetween waves. Generally push the wave to the enemy tower, blink to medium (hard dire), back to lane, blink to easy. It increases your CS by quite a bit. About another 300+ gold a minute. Also, if you don't get that perfect lane or you end up against a really shitty duo like viper/windrunner or something equally dumb then you can fall back on effectively jungling. The game I linked earlier had quite the difficult lane because my supports were really dumb and they had a decent lane of WR/Weaver. I farmed the jungle a lot of the time while letting my support soak experience and I farmed the lane whenever I felt it was safe without taking too much damage. I ended up getting my battlefury right before 18 minutes, which is pretty late, This is my CS every 2 minutes. Generally in a good game I will hit like 80+ by 10 minutes. Treads are much more reliable, help you get kills and allow you to jungle pretty well.
Anti-Mage RebirthofLeGenD 6 14 25 36 46 64 73 96 116
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Treads before BF has already been discussed by Beesa earlier in the thread and if you are getting BF before treads you are doing it wrong.
As for HOT I feel like it is less effective after manta than a lot of people think, basher gives you a lot more farm and makes your solo kill potential against enemy heroes skyrocket whereas heart AM is very easily kited. I feel the best time to get heart is against a lineup that you don't want to drag the game past 40 minutes with where you kill rosh after finishing heart and go for an aegis timing push to break high ground at 30 minutes. The other time to get it is the reverse situation where your opponents are desperately trying to end and you just need to survive their high ground push.
In a more passive game basher-bkb or even bfly-basher-bkb are a lot more effective I find if you want to take it a bit later. Assuming you get vlads you don't need heart regen and an extra dps item helps keep your farm at 10+ cs a minute, which is especially important as heart am usually sells off qb in favour of a tp scroll. Heart drops off pretty hard in lategame whereas bkb remains relevant even as it goes down to 5 seconds as it allows you to blink->abyssal->mana void people without interruption.
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On January 31 2015 16:46 Clarty wrote:
Treads before BF has already been discussed by Beesa earlier in the thread and if you are getting BF before treads you are doing it wrong.
As for HOT I feel like it is less effective after manta than a lot of people think, basher gives you a lot more farm and makes your solo kill potential against enemy heroes skyrocket whereas heart AM is very easily kited. I feel the best time to get heart is against a lineup that you don't want to drag the game past 40 minutes with where you kill rosh after finishing heart and go for an aegis timing push to break high ground at 30 minutes. The other time to get it is the reverse situation where your opponents are desperately trying to end and you just need to survive their high ground push.
In a more passive game basher-bkb or even bfly-basher-bkb are a lot more effective I find if you want to take it a bit later. Assuming you get vlads you don't need heart regen and an extra dps item helps keep your farm at 10+ cs a minute, which is especially important as heart am usually sells off qb in favour of a tp scroll. Heart drops off pretty hard in lategame whereas bkb remains relevant even as it goes down to 5 seconds as it allows you to blink->abyssal->mana void people without interruption.
I looked back a number of pages and saw his comment that treads first is better but I didnt see anything as strong as "youre doing it wrong if you get BF first". Is there a point where he describes why it isnt worth rushing if youre getting complete free farm? I cant find it
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United States2186 Posts
He basically says you're doing it wrong if you go bfury first. If you go treads bfury you'll have bfury at close to the same time as some guy who naked bfury rushes in the same situation because treads lets you farm jungle and lane during laning phase. Once you get treads/qb/shield you shove wave -> blink to jungle camp -> kill that and then go to lane, shove wave -> blink to next camp. repeat and don't push tower too early. If your supports are really coordinated and their offlaner is useless you can get obscene cs levels by pulling both waves into the dire hard camp in the first few mins (before AM has treads) and let him kill everything. We're talking 110/10 mins here if you're close to flawless, and an easy 90-100 without super supporting if offlaner is neutralized.
If their offlaner is getting too comfy creeping under their tower and you have 2 supports you can have them loop around behind the tower and kill the offlaner when u push wave onto their tower. Having tested it, a midas rush works out better than bfury rush even, unless you really need a vlads.
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On February 01 2015 13:12 Ver wrote:
He basically says you're doing it wrong if you go bfury first. If you go treads bfury you'll have bfury at close to the same time as some guy who naked bfury rushes in the same situation because treads lets you farm jungle and lane during laning phase. Once you get treads/qb/shield you shove wave -> blink to jungle camp -> kill that and then go to lane, shove wave -> blink to next camp. repeat and don't push tower too early. If your supports are really coordinated and their offlaner is useless you can get obscene cs levels by pulling both waves into the dire hard camp in the first few mins (before AM has treads) and let him kill everything. We're talking 110/10 mins here if you're close to flawless, and an easy 90-100 without super supporting if offlaner is neutralized.
If their offlaner is getting too comfy creeping under their tower and you have 2 supports you can have them loop around behind the tower and kill the offlaner when u push wave onto their tower. Having tested it, a midas rush works out better than bfury rush even, unless you really need a vlads.
Thanks for explaining that Ver. Makes more sense now. I will definitely have to try that
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In 1vx or 2vx lanes, is it ok to delay boots for a while to get a QB, PMS, and a stick so that I can cs under tower, take less damage from harassment, and gain a bit of burst regen for emergencies? Is it a good idea to delay boots even longer sometimes for a fast ring of health?
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Everything depends on the opposition you're facing, how they harass you and how hard it is to last hit. All those items helps AM getting last hit, but you have to chose which one is needed faster than the other. Against a weaver or a QOP offlane, getting boots would be far less useful than a straight RoH
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The way most of my anti-mage games play out is that my team is behind by the time I complete my Manta (Even if you finish it pretty quickly, just by you being a greedy farm-whore). In general the way I play it is to follow up with the heart because I feel it gives you a nice combination of fight+push which lets you swing the momentum of the game. But let's say it's not an ideal draft for the Anti-mage and the enemy team's Lycan/DP/Pugna are already pushing on your T3s.
Would it be stronger to go for the basher/Abyssal due to the necessity to fight immediately? Or does the heart still offer more in this scenario?
Does anyone have any good in-game examples of when to get Abyssal vs heart?
In a similar vein, what is the general approach to playing against Phantom Assassin? Do people usually just take an MKB after manta if they need to man-fight him?
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United States47024 Posts
BF+Manta+Heart is outright stronger in a straight-up 5v5. BF+Manta+AB is potentially stronger in a 1v1 or small skirmish where you're manfighting a small number of heroes, but having Illusions that don't die to incidental AoE drastically increases your overall teamfight effectiveness except against super-lopsided teamcomps with no AoE, or teams with spells that kill illusions instantly.
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On February 01 2015 13:12 Ver wrote:
He basically says you're doing it wrong if you go bfury first. If you go treads bfury you'll have bfury at close to the same time as some guy who naked bfury rushes in the same situation because treads lets you farm jungle and lane during laning phase. Once you get treads/qb/shield you shove wave -> blink to jungle camp -> kill that and then go to lane, shove wave -> blink to next camp. repeat and don't push tower too early. If your supports are really coordinated and their offlaner is useless you can get obscene cs levels by pulling both waves into the dire hard camp in the first few mins (before AM has treads) and let him kill everything. We're talking 110/10 mins here if you're close to flawless, and an easy 90-100 without super supporting if offlaner is neutralized.
If their offlaner is getting too comfy creeping under their tower and you have 2 supports you can have them loop around behind the tower and kill the offlaner when u push wave onto their tower. Having tested it, a midas rush works out better than bfury rush even, unless you really need a vlads.
Could you show me a video of someone doing it? 3.1k AM player, never got above 70 cs in 10 minutes.
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heart vs abyssal vs bkb depends a lot on their lineup
most of the time hearts better but thats not necessarily always true
versus teams that kite you quite easily abyssal is sometimes better
and versus teams with a lot disables bkb is sometimes better
if you want to watch am farm just watch pretty much any comp game with am, theyre all pretty good at it
black is known for picking am a lot but most pros seem to be pretty comfortable on am
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abyssal is a must have against a lot of popular meta heroes like lina, storm, jug, troll, etc. Unless u have a reliable teammate to initiate and pierce bkb stun, you are going to be chasing as AM, and thats never what you want to be doing. You should probably get abyssal as fast as you can every game
You want the dream blink->abyssal->manta->2seconds of autos->explode mana and win to instagib their big problem hero. And you want to be able to do that as fast as possible. Any items that get in the way of that need to have strong justification (bkb or heart or whatever) or you need to have a strong team comp that does that for you.
the dream: treads/quelling/pms/bfury->vlads/manta->abyssal
the reality: treads/quelling/pms/bfury->vlads/manta->bkb/heart/butterfly->abyssal
the nightmare: treads/quelling/pms->vlads->bfury... etc
im no pro but thats my take. abyssal is the best item in the game
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 16 2015 03:32 TheYango wrote:
BF+Manta+Heart is outright stronger in a straight-up 5v5. BF+Manta+AB is potentially stronger in a 1v1 or small skirmish where you're manfighting a small number of heroes, but having Illusions that don't die to incidental AoE drastically increases your overall teamfight effectiveness except against super-lopsided teamcomps with no AoE, or teams with spells that kill illusions instantly.
But then again, is not the only reason why illusions die instantly is because everyone and their mother ignores the fact that AM has ability that gives you +100% magical EHP (and same to illusions). I mean, if we take a random ~1.3k HP AM with 4 points in spell shield, his manta illusions have almost 800 magical EHP, no? Last time i checked that's enough to eat 2 nukes. Obviously, magical damage ones, pure damage makes this rather sad.
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On March 16 2015 07:53 ahw wrote:
abyssal is a must have against a lot of popular meta heroes like lina, storm, jug, troll, etc. Unless u have a reliable teammate to initiate and pierce bkb stun, you are going to be chasing as AM, and thats never what you want to be doing. You should probably get abyssal as fast as you can every game
You want the dream blink->abyssal->manta->2seconds of autos->explode mana and win to instagib their big problem hero. And you want to be able to do that as fast as possible. Any items that get in the way of that need to have strong justification (bkb or heart or whatever) or you need to have a strong team comp that does that for you.
the dream: treads/quelling/pms/bfury->vlads/manta->abyssal
the reality: treads/quelling/pms/bfury->vlads/manta->bkb/heart/butterfly->abyssal
the nightmare: treads/quelling/pms->vlads->bfury... etc
im no pro but thats my take. abyssal is the best item in the game
abyssal is one of the best items in the game, but you cant just tunnel vision it.
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EPT
