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I've been going max sting lately on veno and it feels pretty nice if you're going from a position where you're getting good xp and/or are ahead. Having the early max sting hits really hard and makes for quite a powerful ganking ability. Plus I like eeking out the extra bit of slow for chasing/running. By the time you really start pushing hard you've gotten wards going too.
But if you're behind I don't know. If the enemy team is already unafraid to dive in the level 1 wards don't do much to prevent that like level 4 wards do. They die so fast at level 1 and really don't deal enough base damage for them to be a threat.
I think regardless of what you max first you want 2 levels in BOTH wards and sting. So 1/2/1 -> 1/2/2 -> 1/4/2 with ult when you feel its appropriate (I delay it if I don't think I'll be teamfighting or won't have mana to cast it and the enemy team isn't going to melt under it). Level 2 wards are really nice to have because it'll take 2+ hits for a hero to drop them making them something that can less casually be destroyed (especially for supports with low base damage/slow attack speed). Level 1 wards can end up being a bit of free bounty because they just die so fast and they seem much worse for pushing because creeps and towers will railroad them quickly.
Tranquil boots are nice because they're cheap, they let you just always be around as veno which is pretty huge for making big ward traps and applying lots of pressure, they give you good movement speed which is great for chasing/fleeing* and the armor is always nice to have. I don't know if I'd go tranquil -> mek because that seems like it'd strain my mana as venom, but if you're going into another support item like force staff or necro book tranquils works pretty well.
*Even broken it's good movement speed at a fraction of the cost of phase boots.
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On November 19 2013 06:49 Logo wrote:
I haven't tried both but some data:
Pre armor concerns (which is going to play a big role because one is physical and one magical):
Sting 2 -> 3 is a 90dmg increase.
Sting 3 -> 4 is a 120 dmg increase.
Ward 2 -> 3 is 11dmg max increase meaning roughly 8-9 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage
Ward 3 -> 4 is also a 11 max damage increase meaning roughly 11 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage.
To deal 210dmg increase with wards you'd need to hit 9-10 times with the wards to make the damage up.
So at the level where you can be 1/4/2 or 1/2/4 you're looking at needing 10 ward hits in a fight/gank to equal the damage from the sting. If you're sitting around 3+ wards that doesn't seem hard. If you're ganking with 1 wards on your target at a time it's a lot.
A possible reason for sting>ward working better than ward>sting may be the bounty on wards. Wards 1 Sting Max still gives you a lot of the power of wards, but it keeps the bounty low early game. 35/ward is a pretty steep thing to give up. 6.78 ward > sting being the best win % lends credibility to that being the reason.
First of all Wards do piercing damage, which does 50% damage to heroes and 150% to creeps. Sting is just magical damage. What this basically means is lvling Wards will let you push and jungle faster. Sting would obviously be better for hero harassment in lane.
I find Veno's skill build quite flexible, and I often leave skill points unused until I need it. I think a good rule of thumb is to max first Sting eventually (don't have to rush it), get Wards to at least lv 2 so they aren't free bounties, then lvl up Gale or Wards depending on the situation (Gale for ganking, Wards for jungling or pushing/defending towers).
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yeah I didn't make it clear I only wanted to look at vs hero in a rather rough way. I figured the comparison would be generous to wards against heroes, but given that the comparison ended up favoring sting anyways in most general aggressive fight situations the data just sort of confirms what was already pretty intuitive. So I figured ignoring the damage types didn't really change much.
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I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
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On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote:
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
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After reading this thread, I decided to try Veno in AP for fun. I literally had never played him before. I'm 9-0 with him in the last couple days, and I find him very fun to play. Being able to push/defend with wards, helping to gank, having decent jungling ability, and having a ridiculously baller ult makes this guy a blast. Getting force/euls coupled with Q makes you damn near unkillable at my miserable skill level. I also really enjoy force staffing into 4-5 enemies, ulting, and then flying into the air while my teammates finish them off. I've regularly had games where I end up 7/2/24 or so.
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On December 09 2013 19:42 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote:
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself. Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
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On December 10 2013 01:28 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 19:42 Jotoco wrote:On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote:
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself. Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough. Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting.
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galing neuts is just a huge waste of mana unless its stacked to shit.
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Well the point was stacked neutrals. Wards won't clear triple stacks all that fast in my experience (being single target and all), though it's generally a reasonable way to get some jungling in.
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u have to micro ur hero and wards to hit every single creep and refresh sting on them to clear stacked camps fast enough. at the current stage of the game ur either leaving gale at 1 and maxing others or ur maxing gale.
i personally would prefer maxing touch/wards (if im supporting) to push the lanes unless they have amazing antipush.
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Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks.
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On December 10 2013 04:32 Skyro wrote:
Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks.
good supports take reasonable farm for themselves, nothing is more useless than a support with no items at 30mins.
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Also not all carries can clear triple stacks early or easily.
Personally I've also taken to sting/wards, but you know when a good player like Bulba starts musing on something like max gale saying it's a good way to go I tend to at least give it some credit.
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On December 10 2013 04:44 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 04:32 Skyro wrote:
Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks. good supports take reasonable farm for themselves, nothing is more useless than a support with no items at 30mins.
And what does that have to do with clearing triple stacks? I already said that you're going to be more efficient jungling with wards than gale in any practical scenario. Early gale has its merits, but jungling isn't one of them.
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I was entertaining the idea of a W-Q-Q-E-Q-E-Q-.... build.
But I found that I was VERY effective for about half a second it took to hit Q and then was dead weight for 22s. It is good for ganking, but not very useful in teamfights, because it is too dependent on finding that 3 to 5 person gale in teamfights.
Maybe someone like Bulba can consciously rely on hitting money gale after money gale, but overall farm and XP progression of a (mostly) wardless, stingless veno is very slow. These two abilities are very good for farming and pushing
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Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast.
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On December 10 2013 03:39 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 01:28 Logo wrote:On December 09 2013 19:42 Jotoco wrote:On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote:
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself. Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough. Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea. You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting.
i disagree, atleast 2 points in gale and something like soul ring would be way less arduous than dealing with wards. unless you plan on blocking a camp spawn you have to place them far back and spend a lot of time kiting, seeing as how wards have a 5 second cool down. wards only do 50% of the damage your sting passive is listed at.
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On December 11 2013 03:46 epok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 03:39 Skyro wrote:On December 10 2013 01:28 Logo wrote:On December 09 2013 19:42 Jotoco wrote:On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote:
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself. Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough. Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea. You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting. i disagree, atleast 2 points in gale and something like soul ring would be way less arduous than dealing with wards. unless you plan on blocking a camp spawn you have to place them far back and spend a lot of time kiting, seeing as how wards have a 5 second cool down. wards only do 50% of the damage your sting passive is listed at.
The trick is to maximize each "set" of wards, either by stacking a camp or certain areas where you can pull two camps into one set of wards. Also you should be attacking each individial creep once to get full sting damage on them. This is not difficult to do.
Also let's step back here a moment, shall we? It feels like there is too much theorycraft/hypotheticals going on here (like large creep stacks and such) and people are not really focusing on what is going to actually happen in a game, like when you are jungling as Veno, the purpose of jungling as Veno, etc.
I don't know what scenario you guys are jungling in as Veno, but primarily I jungle with Veno at the very start of a match. In this case you have no choice but to go wards first. Also, other than the obvious gold/xp advantages of jungling, another big reason you jungle as Veno is to set up early ganks, or at the very least present that threat (to both mid and safe lanes). Obviously if you are using Gale to actually jungle, the cooldown won't be up to use to actually gank if the opportunity presents itself. Also mana is a huge issue for Veno early on and using Gales just to jungle is not efficient.
Even later on in the game when Gale is maxed I STILL wouldn't using Gale to jungle because you never know when a fight will break out, when a TP into counterattack is going to take place, etc. The cooldown and mana cost on Gale is simply too high to be used efficiently for jungling purposes in any practical scenario.
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On December 10 2013 14:24 Myrddraal wrote:
Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast.
Yep. I do too.
Against invis heroes, for example, I gift then a gale when they run away, and usually they are low life so they have a good chance of dying.
People usually don't appreciate it much, but there was a game when I skilled gale in the middle of a battle and killed an invis hero because of it. Quick thinking, quick fingers and good decision making and nobody ever notices...
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EPT
