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On March 16 2016 21:48 goldspoon wrote:
My problem with this hero is whatever he does someone else can do it better, visage pets have better vision/siege/crowdcontrol/disabling blink/damage output overall than venom wards, and it does not fall off nearly as hard.
A lot of big ults have similar aoe radius with massive INSTANTANEOUS nuke damage, and on top of that offers additional utility. A blog on dotabuff compared Earth Spirit to Venom and i am gonna use the example here as well,
1. ES can initiate into a good position to catch multiple people with his ult without the necessity to purchase forcestaff/blink/glimmer cape.
2. It offers tons of utility (aoe stun/silence that last for significant amount of time), utilities that are very impactful at all stages of the game.
3. Even when his ult is down ES offers sizable amount of disable/mobility.
I am not stating venom needs a buff, its just like kunkka, overshadowed by a hero (ember) that can do anything he does and do it better.
ES is probably gonna get nerfed in the near future.
Also you totally ignore the vision advantage that wards provide over visage, that gale slow is absolutely brutal for some heroes (and spirit's stun is pretty bad), the fact that his ult may be a dot but it's still one of the highest damage dealing abilities in the game and that Venomancer can just fortify positions in a similar way to tombstone (albeit weaker).
Honestly the main thing where es is better is his mobility. Which is the main reason he's picked right now, he can rotate mid and initiate from outside of vision range and if he hits he slows a hero for 2 sec by 80%, which is most of the time enough for a strong mid to kill his opponent.
You can't just ignore all the good points a hero has and then say that he's outclassed.
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visage is nothing like veno in any regard lmao
other than being slow and squishy with a slow early on maybe
yea go ahead and try to delay a push by yourself with visage birds instead of veno wards rofl
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On March 16 2016 09:20 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 09:09 xxpack09 wrote:On March 16 2016 08:48 DucK- wrote:
Veil is so good. Remember solo killing a slark who died at fountain :D
[Edit]
My previous above shows ignorance. Forgive me. To be fair, the item has been buffed several times since your last post :D Slark can just dark pact off veno's abilities
Slark cannot dark pact off poison sting, poison nova, or veil debuff; veno would be unplayable if you could just dispel all of his shit.
Also not sure why people are comparing venomancer to heroes that do completely different things. He has 1.5 (being generous here and giving gale vs roll a .5) similar spells to ES and 0 similar spells to visage, and all the similarities end there.
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In terms of role there is some overlap, Veno is extremely strong at chasing down heroes, is good at moving around early, and backs that up with strong teamfight potential. All of that is similar to Earth Spirit except ES' mobility and hard control is replaced by damage and slows.
In terms of Visage I don't see the comparison as much, but both heroes do offer a strong lane pressure support kit, but they do it in completely different ways.
As for Veno's problem I think "strong early game kill presence into strong push defense" is an awkward support hero transition and the ult damage is great, but there's a lot of support ults that deal massive damage but will drop a target fast to tilt a fight.
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I think offlane solo/duo veno is pretty good. He puts a lot of pressure on their safelane and then tears down towers pretty well in the midgame, and that progression is nice when every nerd is picking spectre.
It's always tough to justify a support with so little CC, though. You really have to crush your lane and have your other lanes do well enough that you can rotate and start sieging towers.
I have no clue why he's being compared to kaolin, aside from the fact that they're both supports.
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Veno wards should break smoke, this hero would b solid
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One thing though is that if this hero gets agha, that itself forces teams to go bkb
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On March 17 2016 14:35 DucK- wrote:
One thing though is that if this hero gets agha, that itself forces teams to go bkb
and the gr8 thing is its still somewhat effective through shortened bkbs, as is poison sting
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i really like messing around with veno in pubs and in midlane as well.
early level advantage is sickeningly brutal for some heroes.
40 sec duration, 600 range, ward and blink disabler? yes please
elder titan, veno, veil, ancient apparition? yes please. LOL
it's such a momentum-based hero that I don't think it ever works as a support in competitive anymore. maybe with something silly like a bounty at the very same time bullying out something like a spectre, AM.
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On March 17 2016 15:29 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2016 14:35 DucK- wrote:
One thing though is that if this hero gets agha, that itself forces teams to go bkb and the gr8 thing is its still somewhat effective through shortened bkbs, as is poison sting
Pipe blocks significantly more of venos dmg than a short duration bkb (counting allies)
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What's the general build idea if you find yourself as a position 3 Veno, specifically boots? I tried to play him as a support, and ended up as the offlane priority. I went Aquila + Veil + Blink + Aghs, but really wasn't sure what to go for boots specifically. I didn't feel like I needed any in particular besides the movespeed, but tranquils seemed silly as a #3.
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Tranqs are super fine. Tranqs are probably most common in offlane because you're expected to take a descent amount of harass being in 1v2/1v3 lanes.
If you dont feel you need the regen (veil gives some), just stay brown boots until lategame travels.
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On March 20 2016 06:03 Kreb wrote:
Tranqs are super fine. Tranqs are probably most common in offlane because you're expected to take a descent amount of harass being in 1v2/1v3 lanes.
If you dont feel you need the regen (veil gives some), just stay brown boots until lategame travels.
Thanks! I went the travel route that game (I was in a 2v1 lane in our favor because they had a jungler + roaming pudge) and it worked out, but I did feel sluggish in mid game battles. I'll probably just go for the tranquils next time if that's the case.
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On March 20 2016 05:27 Logo wrote:
What's the general build idea if you find yourself as a position 3 Veno, specifically boots? I tried to play him as a support, and ended up as the offlane priority. I went Aquila + Veil + Blink + Aghs, but really wasn't sure what to go for boots specifically. I didn't feel like I needed any in particular besides the movespeed, but tranquils seemed silly as a #3.
Imho veno is a typical hero who doesn't really need items. I'd consider gg's, offlane mek helps you teamfight earlier and arcanes are good on the hero. Then again I'm not sure his mana pool can handle mek+ult, but since you are probably building veil and aghs anyways it should be on the long run.
Midas is probably another thing that's really nice.
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I build treads on Veno as I feel he needs the Hp considering he is generally going to be in the midst of fights and Veno generally auto attacks quite a bit so the AS is nice on him.
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3070 Posts
Think tranquils + Urn is decent hp + armor + mana regen for pretty cheap.
+ Show Spoiler [shitpost] +To play veno you just have to pretend you're trump and build a wall at your tier 3. Make your base great again
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On March 22 2016 06:09 Rocket-Bear wrote:Think tranquils + Urn is decent hp + armor + mana regen for pretty cheap. + Show Spoiler [shitpost] +To play veno you just have to pretend you're trump and build a wall at your tier 3. Make your base great again
And spew toxic bullshit lol
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Naw you don't really need to right click with treads unless it's to win lanes. Get early veil and win fights just by pressing ulti
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On March 22 2016 16:28 DucK- wrote:
Naw you don't really need to right click with treads unless it's to win lanes. Get early veil and win fights just by pressing ulti
Agreed, veno is best played suicidally, walk/blink into as many heroes as you can, veil + ult + gale, try to right click to apply poison to as many heroes as you can before going down -> your team runs in and wins fight against low hp heroes after enemy uses spells on you. Tranquils and travels are the best boots, with arcanes being situational if you or allies need the mana.
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I prefer a more defensive style with arcanes > blink > guardian greaves and just tp rotate around to defend and push towers and place observer wards. And of course spam plague wards everywhere for extra vision and blink disabling.
If you have stronger late game carry heroes on your team then a defensive venomancer is great to keep your towers alive and to keep your carries safe and enough space to get big.
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EPT
