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On December 11 2013 05:43 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 14:24 Myrddraal wrote:
Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast. Yep. I do too. Against invis heroes, for example, I gift then a gale when they run away, and usually they are low life so they have a good chance of dying. People usually don't appreciate it much, but there was a game when I skilled gale in the middle of a battle and killed an invis hero because of it. Quick thinking, quick fingers and good decision making and nobody ever notices...
I AM VERY PROUD OF YOU JOTOCO.
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Jungling with gale at early levels is problematic because it makes Veno incapable of ganking or counterganking. He needs gale to do that. If there's a plan to use gale to make it easier for your carry to do a massive stack then that's a different story, but still something that needs to be a lot more careful than just "jungle with gale".
Maxed poison sting + gale + 1 auto on an enemy is 575+300+auto damage which is still short of the hp of a hard camp. And if they have a satyr hellcaller in the camp then it can take forever. Really I only ever saw this in HoN where the ancients weren't magic immune, and it was in combination with wards. (Also the hon version of poison sting is/was insanely stronger).
Currently I favor 1-1-0 into 2-1-4-x builds. I've seen no-gale builds from some farming venomancers but it just seems... bad. The main usage I have for sting is the slow, which still scales poorly even if it is applied more easily.
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Hooray! Buff! Finally this will work! It will make last hitting with wards SO much easier!
6.79c wrote:
Plague Wards night vision reduced from 1200 to 800
Venomancer base movement speed reduced from 290 to 285
NOOOO!!! Nerfs!!!!
These are not huge, but pretty significant. Now tranquils, IMO, will be more important than ever. And Plague wards will not be a poor man's substitute for normal wards. Not at night, at least.
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I don't think tranquils on veno is a great idea.
First of all, you want to be harassing in lane as much as possible due to poison sting.
Also, you really need hp on him, and unless you go tranquils drums, you're going to be very very very squishy.
Phase at least gives you survivability through speed.
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Also the movement speed goes away when you need it the most with tranqs so hp treads will still be necessary if in fight utility is the goal
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On December 13 2013 08:01 mizU wrote:
I don't think tranquils on veno is a great idea.
First of all, you want to be harassing in lane as much as possible due to poison sting.
Also, you really need hp on him, and unless you go tranquils drums, you're going to be very very very squishy.
Phase at least gives you survivability through speed.
People worry about deactivation on Tranquils too much. Realize that even deactivated Tranquils are 60 MS 4 armor for 975 gold. That is very good value even if there was never an active regen state. The regen/bonus MS out of combat are basically free.
As far as HP, it's actually far easier to itemize early HP than it is to get armor on supports early. Urn, Bracers, casual Vit Booster, etc. all give HP.
On December 26 2013 22:36 Mb79584 wrote:
Also the movement speed goes away when you need it the most with tranqs so hp treads will still be necessary if in fight utility is the goal
Deactivated Tranquils still have an MS advantage over every other type of boots except Travels.
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is bassy ring worth getting on veno?
i don't see too many venos building it, do wards not get +armor from it?
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On December 27 2013 04:47 mizU wrote:
is bassy ring worth getting on veno?
i don't see too many venos building it, do wards not get +armor from it?
the +armor aura would affect creeps too and push your lane. you sometimes get the basi for extra pushing power.
it's certainly not a bad buy but more often than not by the time you have spare gold for a basi you would rather be getting boots or building towards a bigger item. you're going to need arcanes either way so it's not like basi solves your mana problems. maybe treads+aquila for strong early game right click?
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but you can toggle the ring... right?
i mean for pushing and defending pushes bassy seems pretty efficient
are you recommending arcanes over bassy?
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the +armor aura is not a downside because you can ofc toggle it off.
personally I think bas is reasonable in a number of situations.
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On December 27 2013 05:18 mizU wrote:
but you can toggle the ring... right?
i mean for pushing and defending pushes bassy seems pretty efficient
are you recommending arcanes over bassy?
normally you have the ring off which means it only affects you + other heroes
im saying if you want the armor on the wards then it would be for pushing a tower, otherwise it just pushes your lane.
im not recommending arcanes OVER basi, because basi doesn't solve your mana problems (i.e. you wouldn't get basi purely for the purposes of mana regen). unless you have a way to boost your int/mana pool, you're never going to have the mana to use your ult.
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Basi is okay on veno, but there's a few issues. Veno, first, needs a high mana pool to help deal with ult + gale combo, and early arcanes helps with that a lot. Also, a large majority of carries end up picking up basi anyways to help push towers, and the 500 gold cost can hurt a bit when it comes up to picking up your wards / sentries / smoke / dust, or even delay a mek / force staff.
I usually don't get it.
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I usually go basi unless theres a CM. the regen is good for early wards and you dont necessarily need his ult that early
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The main argument against Basi is honestly that as a support, it's generally the case that someone else already got one by the time you can really spare 500 gold to get one (e.g. Agi carry got Aquila for laning, some off-laners getting casual Basi for mana and lane control). And it's not all that great to get another one if someone already got one.
It's reasonable to buy one to supplement pushes if no one else on your team got one by the time you've got your basics covered and can spare the gold for one.
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Thats true usually another player has gotten it if youre a 4 or 5 spot veno
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Am I the only one who feels Tranq Boots > Eul > Blink > Veil > Aghs > Shiva is extremely effective on Veno? I play him as sort of a follow-up initiator, hanging in the back waiting for my team's initiator to go in and/or wait until the enemy team uses all their stuns before going in and dropping your poison bomb.
Combo is Shiva > Blink > Veil > Gale > Nova, use Eul defensively if needed.
Eul + Blink gives Veno an escape method (Eul yourself, Blink away) and great mobility for early ganking potential. Eul guarantees Gale hits, and allows you to catch people from far away.
Tranq Boots is nice as you can regen while still laying your ward mine field.
Shiva + Gale slows people to a crawl, and gives Veno the tankiness to survive late game and stay relevant.
Veno's ult does have a large range but IMO if Blink allows you to hit even just one extra person with your ult makes it worth it. Plus Blink really helps positioning yourself to hit multiple people with Gale.
I think the item build is flexible in that it is effective at every point, so it's an effective pathway no matter your farm position. Eul's solves early mana problems, can make an early Basi for extra lane dominance and can disassemble later for Tranq and Eul's. Can still have a big team fight and ganking impact from just Tran + Eul + Blink.
Of course if you're in a pushing line-up and trying to hit a timing then Arcane/Mek/Urn reigns supreme.
Also skill build wise I typically like to max sting first for early lane harassment. Sometimes I grab a few extra early levels in Wards if I'm jungling a bit. Veno can actually jungle decently with Wards in certain locations, for example in the camp closest to radiant side mid lane. Just make a wall of wards up the stairs and peck away. It your carry doesn't need your help in lane this can be an option to get a little farm and stay hidden from the map while you wait for gank opportunities to present themselves.
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Quite simply, that's way too much farm for a position 4 or 5 veno to get. Would rather see those items on a puck.
Blink on veno is debatable with the mana cost removal, but the main issue to me is that it is a suicide veno strategy and decent opponents can bkb fast enough to dodge nova ( and sometimes gale). By the time a veno gets that much farm the other team will either have mass bkb, pipe, or be being stomped so hard it doesn't matter. Also, what is the plan for early game mana regent with that build? (I don't see any issues with euls)
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-Obviously I'm not getting 6-slotted every game. That's why I mention the item progression is good throughout. You can be effective with just Tranq + Eul's + Blink.
-Everybody knows Veno falls off hard as the game goes ultra late. Blink allows him to stay somewhat relevant as you can instantly follow up your initiator and get your combo off while they are stunned before they pop BKB. It also lets you hang back and drop wards and such and Blink in and ult when BKBs wear off.
-Your combo easily burns right through Pipe.
-All mana issues are solved by the early Eul's.
-It can be suicidal depending on the situation, but you have a much larger team fight impact. Whether you live or not is dependent on a lot of factors. Remember a good combo will leave a lot of people moving at a snail's pace so they can't really chase. Counting the other team's CCs is important, as well as the position you Blink to. You also can use Eul's defensively. A lot depends on team execution as well.
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I heard from friends that some pro teams are using veno as an offlaner, I'd like to know if this is viable often or extremely specific to those lineups/playstyles?
Also, what is the skill build, item build and what is it the veno seeks to accomplish? Is he the "give up lane early and roam" kind of offlaner (like nyx, centaur) or stay in lane and fight type (lone druid)?
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the few times ive seen veno offlane run, its massing up veno wards and holding the offlane tower for an ungodly long time. usually picked against a chen or enigma. generally speaking, its not very useful but i could see it working if gone unpunished.
problem with it is veno is very vulnerable if he leaves tower range to push.
You definitely don't want to give up the lane and roam, because there are other offlaners better suited to this.
That said, he does have somewhat of a recovery jungle option, so maybe it could work better than im giving it credit for. a fast aghs on this hero is very hard to deal with.
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EPT
