EPT[Hero] Venomancer - Page 4
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govie
9334 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Has a little bit of int and mana regen, again nice for agi caster heroes like Veno. It's active can be used offensively for the disable, to chase and position. It can also be used defensively on yourself. Also it can dispel a lot of debuffs on you when used on yourself. I imagine you can find many situations where you would find that helpful. Is it core? No. But say you're looking for a defensive item vs Bloodseeker for example, I'd go Eul's over Force Staff. At the end of the day Eul's is a nice, relatively inexpensive luxury utility item for a support Veno for sure. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
The movespeed of Tranquil Boots is ridiculous and the added movespeed of Eul's makes you virtually perma-hasted when compared with other movespeeds in the game. Venomancer is that rare support hero without access to a disable. He can't cancel TP's, he can't set up a delayed stun, he can't save allies from enemy spells. Eul's gives him those capabilities, even if it's not as desirable as a direct stun. Importantly, Eul's gives something that Venomancer can do against initiators like Batrider and Clockwerk and other heroes who like to jump in but are not so hurt by Force Staff. Veno needs an item that improves his mana situation. Eul's is one item that definitely qualifies, along with Force Staff. On the current patch, Force Staff + Tranquil Boots results in some money "wasted" on regen, making it a bit less desirable than it would otherwise be. Force Staff is still an amazing item, though. Disappearing someone from a fight for 2.5 secs is more useful than you are giving it credit for. All those Shadow Demon bans aren't targeted at his ultimate. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
This only works if your lane isn't too pressured, but when it does work, it is amazing. I went 17-2 with veno yesterday because my ult annihilated the enemy team every fight. If you are mid veno, maxing gale is best because it does 450 damage total at max level. If you are massively outlevelling your opponents, you take down their health very fast. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/oiphal/b/474848324 http://dotabuff.com/matches/364193371 I'll commentate it tomorrow, playing it made me remember some things like how Venomancer is actually a huge pain for pudge (wards make his life hell and he's an easy early gank). I've only slept 6 hours in the past 3 days so I'm going to go to sleep now though. Venomancer played in a support position is in my opinion, better off getting utility items rather than an aghanim's. Agh's is a good first item or early acquisition, but later on it's effectiveness drops off heavily (I think veil is honestly probably a better choice after level 16, flat damage output-wise). Sheepstick really outclasses almost all other support items lategame due to being a hard disable (which venomancer lacks), Eul's is like a miniature version of this - let's you cancel people who just tp out after you drop gale + nova on them. They're better options than softer disables like orchid, atos. Edit - Commentated version is now in OP | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
I'm still unsure on a few things - When to get level 2 of gale, how useful are tranquils, should a 4th position veno get an agh's? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 05 2013 03:32 Logo wrote: It seems pretty situational. The level 2 gale is nice because it can prevent a lot of shenanigans like Blink Dagger, Tranq boots, bottle or urn plays so you'd probably want to get it early-ish if stuff like that seems relevant. Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in. Well Gale ticks every 3s, so you can still Bottle b/w Gale ticks. Things like Blink Dag, Urn, TA's Refraction can be canceled with Poison Sting (lv2 Sting for Refraction), so again kind of moot (I don't think Gale or Poison Sting cancels Tranquil Boots but I'm not 100% positive on this one). You lv up Gale if you want the damage, it's really that simple. An added 175 damage per lv past lv1 is no joke. Clearly lvling up Wards is the way to go in most scenarios, regardless if you drop a point or two in Gale along the way. In regards to boot choice, I play mostly supports and I've pretty much fallen in love w/ the new Tranquils on supports. It's so cheap and the hp regen and MS really help roaming around. The 4 armor is also very nice and adds some much needed survivability. I guess I just feel Veno's mana issues is better taken care of with other items (I love Eul's on Veno) if you're going to be roaming around the map. Although if you are your team's Mek carrier, Arcane is still a great option if your team specifically needs it to hit/sustain an aggressive push timing. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 05 2013 04:29 Skyro wrote: Well Gale ticks every 3s, so you can still Bottle b/w Gale ticks. Things like Blink Dag, Urn, TA's Refraction can be canceled with Poison Sting (lv2 Sting for Refraction), so again kind of moot (I don't think Gale or Poison Sting cancels Tranquil Boots but I'm not 100% positive on this one). You lv up Gale if you want the damage, it's really that simple. An added 175 damage per lv past lv1 is no joke. Clearly lvling up Wards is the way to go in most scenarios, regardless if you drop a point or two in Gale along the way. Part of the changelog is: - Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger I agree about bottle, but it does restrict its usage a bit (you have to bottle after the tick). I don't know if that above change applies to refraction, but that's also why I didn't mention refraction. On top of that gale is 800 range and AoE which is nice. Often wards will be good for canceling when placed well, but it's not as long lasting of a suppression. Though I agree the damage is awesome if that's what you need/want, but usually wards are the way to go. For boots I'd just read in how quickly I can transition to other items. Getting stuck with tranquil's and no mana item as veno kind of blows because you really want to take advantage of Veno's sustained pressure through wards and he contributes a lot more to fights if he can spam wards while using gale and ult. However, if you can get those 2nd+ items and take care of the mana in a reasonable amount of time the tranquils are awesome for all sorts of reasons. I think you just need to read the game and pick one of the two based on what you think you can get away with. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 05 2013 04:33 Logo wrote: Part of the changelog is: I agree about bottle, but it does restrict its usage a bit (you have to bottle after the tick). I don't know if that above change applies to refraction, but that's also why I didn't mention refraction. On top of that gale is 800 range and AoE which is nice. Often wards will be good for canceling when placed well, but it's not as long lasting of a suppression. Though I agree the damage is awesome if that's what you need/want, but usually wards are the way to go. Ah I see. Still though, I really don't think you are ever going to run across a scenario where you feel you need to toss an extra pt into Gale simply to cancel Blink Dagger. Generally people either use Blink Dagger to initiate, or to escape before you get into range of them, so in neither scenario do you need Gale to cancel Blink. Even in cases where you're running away from a Blink Dagger user, you're going to be dropping Wards to slow them down anyway. And in regards to the "2nd item" after Tranquils, the fact that Tranquils is cheaper lets you get that 2nd item faster. I really like going Tranquils into Sage Mask/Void Stone to build into an Eul's, so you get the HP/MP sustain very early which helps your map presence. The caveat here is if you are your team's Mek carrier, which is typically an item that needs to be rushed to hit a coordinated team timing push. In that case Arcane Boots makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I don't know that wards work as well to keep blink down though if you're chasing given the wards have a 5s cooldown and can be juked. Either way I generally agree. I don't think it's a common situation at all, but I can see doing it occasionally. Probably just in place of the 4th ward point at 7/8 (and grab lvl 4 ward at 8/9) or in exchange for a level 8 ult (which would only be in a situation where you lack mana) or something like that. And in regards to the "2nd item" after Tranquils, the fact that Tranquils is cheaper lets you get that 2nd item faster. I really like going Tranquils into Sage Mask/Void Stone to build into an Eul's, so you get the HP/MP sustain very early which helps your map presence. The caveat here is if you are your team's Mek carrier, which is typically an item that needs to be rushed to hit a coordinated team timing push. In that case Arcane Boots makes a lot of sense Of course, but there's more to it than just that extra gold. Whether or not you're sole support (common in pubs), or being pressured will make a big difference in what you can afford and when. Also having just the sage mask/void stone doesn't necessarily solve the problem of not having enough mana to gale + ward + ult in a teamfight since that's a mana pool issue and not a mana regen issue. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
And yes you're just repeating what I said here. Sometimes Veno players don't even get their ult right away because it is really a team fight ult, and if you're not going to be team fighting soon you don't need to get it right away. It's not a very good ganking ult. You could also pick up the Staff of Wizardry along the way to Eul's as well if you need the mana pool to ult. The buildup to Eul's is very good/flexible, i.e. can't afford Void Stone but need the mana regen in lane right now? Buy Sage Mask from the side shop. And if you are going to be in team fights early, e.g. aggressively pushing towers to push an early advantage, then yes in that scenario it does make sense (especially if you're going to be your team's Mek carrier), but I already stated that above. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
There is a recent dotametrics blogpost on the subject that advocates maxing poison sting (with 1 point in ward), and I'm curious if anyone has tried both builds: http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/skill-build-analysis-venomancer/ | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Pre armor concerns (which is going to play a big role because one is physical and one magical): Sting 2 -> 3 is a 90dmg increase. Sting 3 -> 4 is a 120 dmg increase. Ward 2 -> 3 is 11dmg max increase meaning roughly 8-9 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage Ward 3 -> 4 is also a 11 max damage increase meaning roughly 11 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage. To deal 210dmg increase with wards you'd need to hit 9-10 times with the wards to make the damage up. So at the level where you can be 1/4/2 or 1/2/4 you're looking at needing 10 ward hits in a fight/gank to equal the damage from the sting. If you're sitting around 3+ wards that doesn't seem hard. If you're ganking with 1 wards on your target at a time it's a lot. A possible reason for sting>ward working better than ward>sting may be the bounty on wards. Wards 1 Sting Max still gives you a lot of the power of wards, but it keeps the bounty low early game. 35/ward is a pretty steep thing to give up. 6.78 ward > sting being the best win % lends credibility to that being the reason. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
On November 19 2013 06:28 Hapahauli wrote: Is ward-max (with two points in sting) still considered the standard skill-build? There is a recent dotametrics blogpost on the subject that advocates maxing poison sting (with 1 point in ward), and I'm curious if anyone has tried both builds: http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/skill-build-analysis-venomancer/ I think that since the patch, every now and then, veno is played as a solomid, which is ofc very different from his usual support role. Maybe this explains something here, as this analysis doesnt make any difference about it. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
I am stomping almost every game now at my level. 1/2/2/1 into 1/2/4/1 into 1/4/4/2. Tranquil into mek into force into agh into euls or anything really. here are a couple of match ID's. level of play is not the greatest but it works very well. 406815145 - Axe + veno cute combo play, very informative. 406803649 - Axe + veno again. this combo is effective, I don't know how to stop it, but there should be a very simple way to stop it without giving up other lane. 407880799 - An example on where to change your build. I skilled level 2 gale just to kill an invis TA. And it is usually worth it. | ||
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Sarmis
United States58 Posts
I love maxing out the sting as a support veno and just harassing the bejeezus out of them. You just don't get to use Gale as much with the mana issues. Edit: Yes, Gale does a ton of damage. But you can only use it so often. Sting does 30/90/180/300 damage - and is automatically applied with just an auto attack. Gale does 25/200/375/550, can only be used 2-3 times per mana pool. Yes, Gale does twice the damage - but when you are staying in a lane, the constant application of sting seems to win out. And the gale slow doesn't scale. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
Btw he is just a pain in the a.. to deal in lanes if you have no disables or early kill potential. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On December 03 2013 19:59 Laserist wrote: Why build tranquils on a hero benefits attacking that much? Any other boots are simply better. Btw he is just a pain in the a.. to deal in lanes if you have no disables or early kill potential. Because early when you're harassing you don't have a tranquils yet. Later you can always last hit/harass with wards. And you, as a support veno, won't be last hitting much really. And as Veno you can push towers, defend towers, pursue and escape/juke without ever having to right click. I usually only right click when I really need the extra damage NOW, when I'm full HP or when I'm confident I won't need the regen. Like, I right click to get a kill, because I won't need regen if no one is near me to kill me. I can wait 13s after a kill to heal me up. If I have to push a tower or defend a tower right after a fight and I'm low HP I won't right click unless extremely needed (to kill someone or to save a teammate). Wards are there for you. Wards are great with tranquils, they are perfect for veno. Even if you plan on selling the tranquils later on, in the first 15 to 20 minutes there simply isn't anything better for a support veno. On the other hand, if you're going a ganking/semi-carry veno, and you're focusing on sting/gale, then you probably want arcanes or treads or even phase. Else tranquils are great. If you care to watch a couple of replays, you will see how they can be effective. I myself have posted a handful on this thread. | ||
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