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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
I need to get around to adding images for skill builds/items but it's very tedious work. edit - If anyone knows what gale's true range is, please let me know. I think it's 1000 but that would be a bug, it should be 959 at max vs a 24 collision sized unit. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Venomancer - Poison Nova no longer ignores invis/fogged units - Venomous Gale no longer ignores invis units - Venomous Gale damage over time rebalanced from 15/30/45/60 to 0/30/60/90 - Poison Sting duration increased from 6/8/10/12 to 6/9/12/15 - Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger - Plague Wards now have Poison Sting for 50% of the damage at the current skilled level (When both Venomancer and a Plague Ward affect a target, only the highest dps is applied) - Plague Wards XP bounty increased from 12/12/25/25 to 20/25/30/35 Also of note - * The following abilities no longer automatically ignore backswing time by default: Rupture, Malefice, Venomous Gale, Stifling Dagger, Flamebreak, Wave of Terror, Shadow Word and Power Cogs (this is a nerf). I need to update this guide, however I don't think there's a competitive consensus on Venos skill build yet. I think I saw DK's MMY do level 1 gale 2/3 sting 4/5 wards 6 ult then max wards, then finish maxing sting. Not sure if the point at level 3 was due to mana constraints though. Gale max seems less underwhelming but the utility of the spell at level 1 is unchanged and wards are just better. 2 points in gale still cancels regeneration ticks, but 1 ward hit takes off any regeneration. However sting now never takes off regen so maxing it would be less attractive if wards didn't get it now. I see no reason why his item build would change tremendously though (tranquils are a better option for him if he wants to roam now is probably the biggest change). So skill build thoughts? edit - also, I can't edit the OP anymore. Was going to add a note that the guide was out of date in bold at the top. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34503 Posts
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
I love the changes to him. I think giving the plague wards poison sting is so good. It feels like it greatly increases my harass potential. So now gale is worse at level 1, same at 2, better at 3+4 right? I think the skill build you mentioned from MMY seems pretty nice. You still get the awesome level 1 slow from gale, then sting. This seems like the most intuitive build. Maxing wards, sting, and then gale. This probably frees up a little mid game mana for the ult if you will not be using gale for damage at all. I was thinking and I still like arcanes on veno more than tranquils, especially if you are going to mek because you will need some more mana and you will have a healing source already. Also the new tranquil mechanics don't work well with heavy harassment, but if you are going to be roaming it doesn't matter. Maybe tranquils would be fit a bit better if you were going to play position 5 and not get a mek, or if you were doing position 4 and going for a different item, although I am too much of a newb to suggest anything. Throwing down plague wards won't break the tranquils will it? Thanks again for your guide  | ||
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On October 26 2013 14:13 Entertaining wrote: Skill build is gale, sting, sting, max wards. ulti when u have arcanes. Maybe 2 points in gale and 1 in sting if u want more gank. Agree with this. Except I put sting on level 1 to harass. I build tranquils on him, since you're not going to attack all that much (use wards to push lane). My Item build is: tango, 3x gg branch, courier/wards. Then Magic wand, then tranquils. Then I'm favoring urn, as it gives you a little bit of HP and mana regen, and a very nice utility item overall. After that I don't know. I built Skadi a couple of times and though it was good. But I guess some positioning item should could be better, like force or blink. Need to test more. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Just overviewing some things (set it to 6.79 patch). Basically mekansm is now far less popular, it's only been bought twice and it's gotten extremely late (~30 minutes). Force staff is the most popular pick up (at 4/24 games), but the most common theme really is that venomancers aren't even getting enough gold to get a major item. Urn seems the most commonly acquired nonstarting item. Arcanes followed by tranquils are boots of choice. Most common skill build is still Gale level 1, Sting level 2, max wards. However, there is some more variation with some players splitting between sting + wards. It's still too early to really make a judgement on the correct build, especially given Venomancer's sub 40% winrate in 6.79 competitively. I'm wondering if we might see venomancer being played as a solo hero more often now, similar to TI1 era edit - on sting/gale level 1 it's probably best to actually just save the skill point, but in situations aside from harassing gale is always the better level 1 skill. Also occasionally a level 1 ward vs silencer who wants to spam curse. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On October 27 2013 10:30 Nevuk wrote: http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Venomancer&p=items Just overviewing some things (set it to 6.79 patch). Basically mekansm is now far less popular, it's only been bought twice and it's gotten extremely late (~30 minutes). Force staff is the most popular pick up (at 4/24 games), but the most common theme really is that venomancers aren't even getting enough gold to get a major item. Urn seems the most commonly acquired nonstarting item. Arcanes followed by tranquils are boots of choice. Most common skill build is still Gale level 1, Sting level 2, max wards. However, there is some more variation with some players splitting between sting + wards. It's still too early to really make a judgement on the correct build, especially given Venomancer's sub 40% winrate in 6.79 competitively. I'm wondering if we might see venomancer being played as a solo hero more often now, similar to TI1 era edit - on sting/gale level 1 it's probably best to actually just save the skill point, but in situations aside from harassing gale is always the better level 1 skill. Also occasionally a level 1 ward vs silencer who wants to spam curse. I'm really favoring tranquils over arcanes. You don't need much mana, really. Wards are only 20 mana a pice, and gale is not to be spammed. A force staff and urn seem to be the best items. After that Veno needs survivability, and I'm not sure what is good for it. You have decent armor, being an agi hero, but you have way too little life. Maybe an Aghs? It is useful and gives you a bit of survival. I need to test more. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 28 2013 07:33 Mafe wrote: About new tranquils and veno now: The "tranquils are broken"-cooldown will reset as long there is anybody still under affect of the poisons? Or how else does it work? Cause this would make tranquils a lot less effective on him imho. They only break on auto attack damage either given or received. (They may be broken by receiving damage, not 100% sure but most) I've tried out venomancer with tranquils, definitely effective but makes it harder to scale late game. | ||
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
The question is not what to skill or what to buy, but what he basically is. He is so allround and during a game, i believe his role shifts from a pusher to teamfight support/splitpusher thx to his awesome ultimate and skills. But his allroundness or lack of a true purpose, could be why he is not very succesfull in the proscene/teamgames yet.I favor PT's above tranquils or manaboots, because venomancer is squizy early on and when needed u take int or agi. Pt's solve those costeffective when not playing as a full support (=tranquils). But i dont believe veno is a good full support hero but more like a early pusher, so PT's for me! Ive tried rushing a meka / pipe /drum (support) or yasha (semi carry) and skippin the ring of aquila multiple times, but this also weakens veno so much in early game (in pubs). Shadowblade is nice but for some reason i dont get enough kills yet to justify 3000 gold for a shadowblade. early = 3000 gold = Early game : Wand, PT, Ring of aguila = Pushing/survivability items mid = 6200 gold = Mid game : Septer, blinkdagger = Utilizing most of his ultimate late = 2500 gold = TP boots = Splitpushing ------------ + 10700 gold 10.000 gold does sound like alot of with the new patch its pretty doable. After this i get what needed if the game still goes on. Im not teamgame minded and more pubminded, but until now this worked pretty allright. Ive combined it with buying wards+donkeys all game long, works out great. The ingame guide aint bad for venomancer in pubs and is doable for everybody. Everygame u will have +25 assists and maybe more kills then death. But the number of assists is astuounishing. I think we should make a new role in dota, assistking | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On October 28 2013 07:52 Nevuk wrote: They only break on auto attack damage either given or received. (They may be broken by receiving damage, not 100% sure but most) I've tried out venomancer with tranquils, definitely effective but makes it harder to scale late game. They break on auto attack damage. For example, if you auto attack and miss because of high ground, they won't break. Using skills or ongoing damage does nothing to it. For receiving damage, it is broader, most damages break it, but it is still exceptionally good. I can get kills in ganks while keeping my tranquils active. Veno is VERY good now. I will post a match ID I played yesterday were, up to 25 min, I think I played him very well. Damn near perfect for my skill level (high match making). After that the game was so won that I got sloppy. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 28 2013 21:17 Nevuk wrote: So xiao8 seems to be having the most success with venomancer right now, playing him as a mid hero (usually with a roaming support). Venomancer seems to need the solo xp to be able to rapidly get max points in wards out. CTY tried it and failed, I wonder if other teams will pick this up though. He played him as duo off-lane support yesterday in D2L, not mid. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote: The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:08 Skyro wrote: Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd. I allways thought poison sting was stackable, but now im in doubt but wiki doesnt say its not stackable! If its stackable, he gains alot from early extra attackspeed as a agihero it helps later. I wonder.... | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
I'm without my gaming comp for a few months but I look forward to playing Veno some more. He's by far my favorite hero in the game. I suppose the general issue is whether he should be played 4/5 position, as he used to, or moving towards mid will change his quick levels for pushing. | ||
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