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[Hero] Venomancer

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-27 22:49:48
February 20 2013 08:19 GMT
#1
6.79 Changes
+ Show Spoiler +
- Poison Nova no longer ignores invis/fogged units
- Venomous Gale no longer ignores invis units
- Venomous Gale damage over time rebalanced from 15/30/45/60 to 0/30/60/90
- Poison Sting duration increased from 6/8/10/12 to 6/9/12/15
- Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger
- Plague Wards now have Poison Sting for 50% of the damage at the current skilled level (When both Venomancer and a Plague Ward affect a target, only the highest dps is applied)
- Plague Wards XP bounty increased from 12/12/25/25 to 20/25/30/35

* The following abilities no longer automatically ignore backswing time by default: Rupture, Malefice, Venomous Gale, Stifling Dagger, Flamebreak, Wave of Terror, Shadow Word and Power Cogs

Also of note, passive gold income is increased as well as the bounty on towers.


Lesale Deathbringer, The Venomancer


[image loading]

Table of Contents
Overview
Friends and Enemies
Gale Range
Purge? What purge?
Regular Skill Build
Alternate Skill Builds
Harassment and Laning Techniques
Plague Wards
Situational issues
Item Builds
Replays
Conclusion
Overview
Lesale Deathbringer, the Venomancer is a dire agility hero capable of being played in positions between 2-5, though is most often seen as the 4 or 5 position hero. He has three damage over time abilities, 2 of them AOE, 2 of them strong slows, and he has an anti-push/pushing ability. This guide is going to cover running Venomancer in the fourth or fifth farming position (ie, as a support).
Stats -
18 Strength + 1.85 Strength per level
22 Agility + 2.6
15 Int + 1.75
Strengths
-Versatile, fits into most lineups.
-Venomancer's wards are exceptionally good at pushing or slowing pushes due to their physical, magic immune nature (kotl blast isn't going to bother him)
-Has three abilities that are impossible to purge (ie, turning on BKB or casting repel does not remove them)
-Capable roamer
-Extremely strong laner, pusher/anti-pusher, and early-midgame teamfighter
Weaknesses
-Squishy, low hp and strength gain
-Mana starved (items that increase his mana pool are a must, though the spells are not excessively costly)
-Poor movement speed
-Low range for a support hero
-Reliant on a skillshot ability in the laning phase
-Impact decreases as the game goes on
-No true disable
Friends
Venomancer fits into most lineups, though he generally wants some stuns to follow up his slows as he has no real disable. Warlock and him can make for absolutely brutal teamfights with fatal bonds and poison nova. Witch Doctor, Zeus, and I think Axe can prevent "enemy has been denied" issues (maledict is a very strong combination, Zeus can ult after people have been brought low, and you cannot deny a battle hungered target [my mechanics may be failing me here]).
Laning Allies
-He's trilane friends with CM (she has similarly ranged initiation spells and a disable, and can help his mana problems), -Witch Doctor (1000 range stun + maledict prevents enemies from denying), and most 600 range support heroes. There are very few carries who can't be supported by a venomancer, but ones with a stun are probably better to prevent the opponents from just tping away.
-Juggernaut is a popular pub hero to lane with him.
-Luna synergizes well with Veno due to her long range .6 stun nuke (this lets Venomancer hit gale on heroes slightly faster than him) and high movement speed despite the low range of the lane.
-Drow and veno is a rather deadly, but squishy lane. The slows are extremely high.
-Chaos Knight works well for the same reasons that Luna does, however Veno's low autoattack range can make this weak vs 600 range heroes.
-Venomancer is going to prefer carries who have kill potential at early levels, basically. Spectre is about all I can think of in the category of carries that don't give Venomancer sufficient kill potential.
Enemies
Omniknight, Dazzle, Chen, Abaddon. Essentially, healing lineups make venomancer's life hell since he is so reliant on damage overtime. Nothing quite like taking someone down to 3 hp and hearing "All are healed". Also Centaur, Lycan, and Dark Seer, who don't care about your slows. The two worst enemies for Venomancer -
-Abaddon
You HATE this guy. Absolutely HATE him. His aphotic shield can remove any of your poisons on himself or allies, and his ult takes care of that as well.
-Slark
Same deal as Abaddon, but at least he can only purge himself.

Abilities


Venomous Gale
[image loading]
- Releases a Venomous Gale which poisons enemy units it comes in contact with (this is essentially a linear 125 radius line originating from Venomancer's location). Poisoned units take initial damage, damage over time (every 3 seconds), and have their movement speed slowed for a short duration, recovering it over time. Legacy hotkey E, normal hotkey Q.
Level 1/2/3/4
Mana cost - 125/125/125/125
Initial Damage- 25/50/75/100
Damage over time - 0/30/60/90
Slow - 50%
Cast Range 800

Special notes - The damage can be removed by repel or bkb but the slow cannot. Total damage per level - 25 / 200 / 375 / 550. Also, even though it deals no damage aside from the initial strike in theory, in practice Gale deals 5 instances of 0 damage and level 1 gale still disables blink dagger with these instances (this is probably a bug).
Gale's Range
I' m not exactly certain on the precise range of this spell, but it goes at least 125 past the cast range due to the radius and seems to be capable of going up to just short in of 1000 range. Factor in that most heroes have 24 collision size and the range is somewhere between 950-1000. Here are some pictures to demonstrate this -
The cast range - when I cast gale from this range on the harpies, it actually hit every harpy (that's why the next image is a different creep camp/slightly different position).
&#91;image loading&#93;
Actual range - note that this is the distance I was from the creeps before casting gale, the hp bars should give away what was hit (upon casting it again the kobold taskmaster was not hit). The range display is set to 1000.
&#91;image loading&#93;

Toxic Sting-
[image loading]
A passive spell that adds damage over time and slow to Venomancer's auto attacks.
Level 1/2/3/4
Slow 10/11/12/13%
Duration 6/9/12/15
Damage 5/10/15/20

Special notes - Cannot be purged and the slow goes through BKB, does not disable blink dagger or regeneration of any form. Total damage: 30 / 90 / 180 / 300.
Plague Ward
[image loading]
20 mana, 1200 vision range, 850 cast range, lasts 40 seconds, applies a poison sting debuff of 50% the damage of Venomancer's current level of sting(highest poison sting damage takes priority, they do not stack). Armor type heavy, damage type piercing.
1 75 hit points, 11 max damage
2 200 hit points, 21 max damage
3 325 hit points, 32 max damage
4 450 hit points, 42 max damage


Poison Nova
[image loading]
Mana Cost 200/300/400
CD - 140/120/100 (60 with Aghanim's)
Damage per Second - 36 / 58 / 81
With Aghanim's Upgrade - 58 / 81 / 108

Does massive damage over time in an 830 radius around venomancer but the damage is non-lethal, by itself it will not drop enemy units hp below 1. Can also not be purged (except by Abaddon and Slark), though BKB does stop the damage while it is active and it cannot hit targets who are magic immune.
[/spoiler]

Purge? What purge?
Summary of notable aspects of the spells not in the descriptions- None of venomancers abilities can be purged (not by bkb, manta, repel, etc.) with two notable exceptions (Abaddon and Slark) though the damage is blocked while BKB, Rage, or bladefury are active. Poison sting penetrates magic immunity, however none of the rest do.
Skill build
Standard (Pusher/Anti-Pusher) -
1 - Venomous Gale
2 - Poison Sting
3 - Plague Ward
4 - Plague Ward
5 - Plague Ward
6 - Poison Nova*
7 - Plague Ward
***
Suggested -
8 - Venomous Gale
9 - Sting
10 - Sting
11 - Gale
12 - Sting
13 - Gale
14 - Gale
***
Leveling the ult every time it is available seems fairly obvious, however, taking the ult at 6 is actually not always the best idea- it is quite frequent for Venomancer's full mana pool to not support a casting of Gale and Nova at that level depending on the items he has.

Explanation -
In about 95% of games the standard section of this is going to be the appropriate build. The slow does not increase on Gale and slow increase on sting is minimal and a single point is sufficient to win harassment wars with most opponents. This build is appropriate as a solo, part of a trilane, even roaming (it allows him to transition out of roaming into pushing rapidly), and vs most mids. It's especially effective at allowing Venomancer to farm or push. The secondary suggested will be appropriate the majority of games but may not be ideal.

Damage Thresholds and why Venomancer cares
Now, as to why you would want to take two points in Gale early has to do with the way regeneration items work in dota. It requires 20 pre-reduction magical damage to cancel out a bottle or healing salve (or clarity for that matter). Level 1 Gale does not prevent opponents from using regenerative consumables, basically. Bottle is the important issue here - there is sufficient time between ticks of gale to consume a bottle charge (if the person times it perfectly). By the time Venomancer is level 8 it really isn't as much of a factor as it would be earlier in lane, but all physical damage instantly cancels regen (your wards deal physical damage and have a tremendous 850 cast and 1200 vision range, they are much superior to canceling regeneration in comparison to venomancers autoattack and have a low mana cost making this more feasible, though it requires precise micro with the lower levels of wards).

Standard Mid-late Game Skill Build
After wards are maxed, Max sting with two points in gale, generally (though not always). It's intuitive and situational as to whether to max gale or sting. Sting synergizes with plague wards while Gale is an AOE slow. If you are dying after only being able to get off ults/gales in fights then maxing gale is the obvious choice, especially if there is never sufficient time to get a ward field placed during a fight.

Gale does 25/200/375/550 total damage over 15 seconds (22x more damage at level 4 than level 1, notice that the damage is going up by a flat 175 damage from each point - it's probably more accurate to say that level 4 gale is 2.5x as strong as level 2 gale) and if you can hit multiple enemies with it it is an amazing teamfight ability. It's still amazing as a ganking ability despite the 75 damage nerf to level 1 gale in 6.79. Poison sting does 30/90/180/300 damage (10x more damage and also ticks out consistently over 15 seconds instead in 3 second intervals over 15 seconds). Venomancer's 450 attack range and relative squishyness means that it is unlikely that he is going to be able to hit 5 enemy heroes in a teamfight before the teamfight is over, but now that wards apply 50% strength toxic sting this matters a lot less. If you are against several melee heroes who are easily kited but have BKB's (think Naix or an Omni paired with a slow melee carry) then maxing sting may be useful as the bkbs aren't going to affect the slow component of Gale or Sting, but they will prevent the damage portion of Gale.

Alternate Skill builds
I almost never play non-ward max Venomancer so someone else would be much better to ask. I honestly never see a point in skipping wards entirely. Even if you are maxing one of the other skills, a point in it at level 4 to cancel regen or gain vision is extremely useful.
So this is the non-max-ward build I typically do
1- Gale
2- Sting
3- Gale
4 - Ward
5 - Gale
6 - Ult
7 - Gale
8-10 - Sting
11 - Ult
12-14 wards/stats (I really can't think of why someone would TOTALLY skip leveling wards even late in the game)
16 ult

An alternate build meant for soloing vs melee or low range heroes -
1- Gale/Sting
2- Sting/Gale
3- Sting
4- Ward
5- Gale/Sting

Either being 1/3 or 2/2 is desired at level 5. 2/2 helps vs people reliant on bottles while 1/3 is better if you have are able to rain down autoattacks. The single point in wards helps maintain rune control vs the majority of heroes. I still would advise transitioning to wards out of this most games as being in the solo position means you should be getting enough XP to make the wards be timed correctly even if you get them a few levels later.
*****

There are situations where your wards are pointless as pushing or anti-pushing tools, in general if you are in those situations Venomancer wasn't a good pick. If extreme roaming is the desire then maxing Gale is probably better than maxing Sting.

Rejected skill builds - Poison sting/stats. (Yes, I've seen this). This doesn't help Veno's limited carry potential because it destroys his ability to farm and a point of stats is far worse than a point in gale for pretty much any purpose.

Harassment, Laning, and Plague Ward Techniques
The technique behind harassing with venomancer is slightly different than with other supports - a single hit is going to add 30 magic damage to your attack but renewing the debuff is somewhat of a waste (generically, you can trade blows every 6 seconds and come out ahead vs heroes who have <30 damage higher than yours).

The 500 aggro range trick is especially good on venomancer. Issue an attack command on an enemy hero outside of 500 range of the lane creeps and in the next 2 seconds you can autoattack that hero without drawing creep aggro.

Wards deserve special mention for a variety of uses. Throwing out a ward to cancel enemy clarities/salves is one of the most annoying things in the game (even a single hit from a level 1 ward will do this due to their physical damage).

Plague Ward Usage

The scaling on Plague wards is that level 4 wards have 6x the hp of level 1 wards, with the damage being approximately 4x. Basically, a level 3 plague ward is like being able to summon a magic immune ranged creep for 20 mana, with a level 4 ward dealing almost double the damage of ranged creeps.

Using Plague wards to trap enemies in the trees is a skill that venomancers are going to want to practice, as well as using them to block off access to the spot they've juked towards, or even blocking off access to and from the dire ramp for roshan with three - there are almost limitless possibilities for this kind of terrain abuse.

Plague Wards are well, wards. They behave in the exact same manner as a ward except they only have 1200 vision range but can attack, have higher hp at higher levels, and have a collision size. Anything that an observer or sentry ward can block can be blocked by a plague ward. This means any stack attempt by the enemy, adds the ability to perma block a creep camp close to your lane. Throwing plague wards into the woods near an enemy's pull camp and putting it on hold position so it doesn't attack can be frustrating to the enemy team as it takes either tangos or a flying courier to deward and it's difficult to prevent you from getting close enough to do this. Also as radiant safe lane it's easy to block a tinker or beast master ancient stack with plague wards.

Note that you can place wards outside of the block range of the ancient spawns and then proceed to drag the ancients towards them after having made a ward field (or just to stack) and your wards will kill the ancients while they try to chase you down. This works on either the radiant or dire sides, but can be a lengthy process and your team might prefer if you didn't do this.

Wards last 40 seconds and can allow a venomancer to scout rune spots and destroy the runes without being there as long as ward is placed at ~x:20 or later. (A poor man's ward, if you will). Similarly the ward can be used as an excellent counter-ganking tool or scouting tool, especially vs trilanes that are very heavy on counter-warding normal observer wards. The number of ganks level 1 wards can prevent is frequently quite surprising - the vision from even the second it takes them to kill the ward is sufficient to get an update on the enemy positions. This aspect of wards is part of why Veno was ever run as a solo.

Pushing and anti-pushing with wards
Any level of wards are useful as pushing tools. Level 3 and 4 wards are much more effective, however. The basic principle behind pushing with wards is to create a ward field and slowly push the ward field to just outside of tower range (especially true for level 3 wards). Placing the wards in a small aoe (you can make rows, flowers, etc.) enables them to focus their damage.

Diving past a field of level 3 or 4 wards early in the game can be almost as bad as diving through Rhasta's wards. Once the ward field is outside of tower range, it can be determined if the enemy team wants to defend the tower or is capable of doing so. If the enemies aren't capable of nuking down creep waves instantly then level 4 wards may be placed in areas that are annoying to kill around the tower (in the trees, etc.) or within tower range to manually target the wards, as the tower will never target wards if there are other enemy units nearby. (Level 3 wards don't have sufficient hp to justify placing them within tower range, while level 4 wards can build up a ward field within tower range as long as the creep wave lives for sufficient time).

For defending pushes you want to use one of two principles - either place the wards in the trees or places that are extremely annoying to kill, or group them behind the tower in anticipation of a dive/because it makes them extremely hard to kill (ie, the enemy team must tower dive to kill wards) while they remain very strong at killing off creep waves.

Roshan
Venomancers plague wards are exceptionally strong vs Roshan if he gets early levels. He's not quite capable of soloing, but plague wards are one of the best skills in the game to speed up a roshan attempt. (If basing a strategy around this a medallion becomes more useful than it would be otherwise).

Situational Skill notes

These are notes vs specific heroes.

-Going middle versus TA
It takes two points in toxic sting for an instance of damage from it to burn through one of TA's refraction charges, so a Venomancer sent mid to counter TA typically gets two points in poison sting by level 3.
-Versus silencer
If a silencer is on the board, save your skill point at level 1 until you see if you are laning against him and what his skill build is. A point in wards at level 1 can make his curse of the silent completely useless. Venomancer is one of the few heroes in the game who is actually hurt significantly by level 1 curse's mana drain. Most silencers won't level CotS vs a Veno, so it's best to wait to see what they've skilled.
-Versus Lifestealer
Naix is actually not as amazing versus Venomancer as it may seem on paper. They practically counter each other. If naix is hit by venomous gale before raging (this comes down to who has the fastest fingers or lower ping) then the slow is still going to affect him and toxic sting will always affect him, as will plague wards. As an agility hero Veno isn't the best hero for naix to beat up on anyways, he won't regain a ton of hp or deal much damage from feast. What Naix excels at however is escaping from a gank from venomancer using infest.
-Juggernaut
Same deal as Naix but with the danger of omnislash. The slow from toxic sting penetrating bladefury makes a lane against him one of the few times level toxic sting at level 1 is going to be a good idea (but if he goes boots first sting's slow isn't going to be strong enough to save you)
-Abaddon
You HATE this guy. Absolutely HATE him. His aphotic shield can remove any of your poisons on himself or allies, and his ult takes care of that as well.
-Slark
Same deal as Abaddon, but at least he can only purge himself.


Items as Support
Starting items -
Standard -
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
And in addition either
[image loading] or [image loading]

(If in the safelane buy 1 clarity and [image loading] to enable pulls and dewarding)

Full roaming -
[image loading]
[image loading]
(ONLY do this if you are sure that level 1 roaming will be successful- this is a very all-in strategy aimed at ensuring rune control vs an easily ganked rune dependent mid hero like Shadow Fiend, Death Prophet)

Core items -
There are many possible item progressions for a Venomancer. The essential thing that he needs is a larger mana pool. Any item that grants this is useful and can be a starting point for your own build.
My personal build -
Core -[image loading] , constant up-keep of [image loading]
if 5th position, [image loading] if 4th. For counterwarding eventually a [image loading]
[image loading] if no one else on the team is getting one, sometimes even if they are - this item makes pushes and laning both significantly stronger for Venomancer.
Situational - [image loading], [image loading], [image loading]
Late-game -[image loading], [image loading]
Notes-
Wand is not required by Venomancer, although a magic stick is usually nice. It's a lane dependent decision. This is part of why the starting build I have for him only has two branches - those are to build into a mekansm, not a wand. This build is aimed around being able to get a rax during the period where Venomancer still has a heavy impact. I prefer arcanes both as a mana item and, along with mekansm, as an aid in sustaining pushes. If there is a better Mek carrier on the team and they are actually making it, then I will get an urn and headdress to make into a pipe.
Gems and Counterwarding
Venomancer is one of the best Gem carriers in the game due to his plague wards. Throwing them down lets him counterward places that would be difficult for anyone besides himself or Beastmaster to spot. I almost always get an early gem on Venomancer if I suspect that my opponents have any wards at all, even if they have no invisible heroes. As pointed out by those in the thread, if no invisible heroes exist (and sometimes even if) you will want to use the courier to ferry the gem back to fountain when you aren't actively counterwarding.

For those wondering where best to ward or look for wards, I point them towards BurningSera's guide and the pictures within it at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377503

Items, Continued
An example of an alternate item build-

Treads, Forcestaff, Urn, Drums, .

-This build does not offer the same sustainability as the mek/arcane boot build but does offer better immediate survivability and superior mobility while providing sufficient mana to ult.

Expanded list of situational items -
For support midgame- Eul's, Force Staff, Ghost Scepter, Drums, Tranquils, Treads, Phase Boots, Veil of Discord, Shadowblade*, Medallion of Courage**, Orchid, Agh's***

Late-game - Heaven's Halberd, Necronomicon 3, BKB, Shiva's Guard, Boots of Travel.


*- I don't particularly like shadowblade on Venomancer as he shouldn't be in the situation of needing it, he should not be a primary initiator on a team. More on this in rejected items. Shadowblade is acceptable as an escape and positioning tool that also adds some nice stats
** Medallion is mostly if your team needs one for rapid roshan in conjunction with plague wards. Venomancer deals tremendous magical damage, Medallion does not amplify his damage significantly at all.

*** I was on the fence on Agh's in 6.78, but in 6.79 venomancer can usually get Aghanim's early enough to make it worth an acquisition.This is much more true of 2nd-4th position Venomancers than fifth positons though.

The primary focus of these items are either survivability(ghost scepter), mobility (forcestaff/eul's), utility (urn, necro 3), teamfight (drums, veil) or ways to increase your crowd control. (My most preferred items like scythe, mek, pipe I left up in my preferred item build section)

Rejected items -
Commonly seen -
Orb of Venom - this adds a 3% slow and 3 magical damage per second to your attack. Yes, it stacks with poison sting, but going from 11-14% is not worth the inventory slot. The low duration also means that you're essentially spending 275 gold to add 12 damage to your attack.
Blink Dagger - Venomancer's issue is almost never about difficulties in getting into position to hit multiple people with his ult or gale. His issue is staying alive either long enough to cast it or long enough to do anything besides cast it. Poison Nova has a massive aoe and Gale has an immense range. Blink dagger does nothing but starve mana on Venomancer. It's like getting a Blink on Kunkka or a hero with similarly long ranged spells. Why?
Vanguard-it's an old relic of the ranged vanguard days.
Refresher - You already have mana problems and your ult lasts 15 seconds.
Desolater- The added damage is nice. Same issue as with the medallion of courage, however - you primarily are dealing magical damage and this doesn't amplify that at all.
Bloodstone - You have mana pool issues, not mana regeneration issues
Rod of Atos - It's not the worst item for you, but you already have two 1000+ range slows and it doesn't give you any sort of a true lock down.
Replays
Unfortunately replays are only stored for what appears to be a week nowadays, so I've taken the liberty of uploading two replays. I believe that this should be workable. There are two replays included, one is a 6.75 replay of Orange's winter doing the boots + ward opening and semi-roaming. If you want to learn how to harass, this is the replay to watch - set your perspective to winters' (yes, he goes vanguard but he can go what he feels like).

The other replay is just me playing out my standard build in a pub game in the off-lane with a witch doctor as an ally. (I'm nowhere near as good as winter, it's just a replay for replays sake. http://www.mediafire.com/?ie4h18mr1k5wx9p

Here's a 6.79 FPVOD of myself solo queued in a pub game with commentary, the majority of the focus is on tricks like how to place plague wards properly.. I can upload the replay if anyone asks.


For more venomancer replays I recommend using datdota. The most common skill builds and item pickups per patch can also easily be mined from it.
http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Venomancer

Venomancer has 700 games in that database. If you want replays but don't want to spend money on tournament tickets, then I recommend finding The international 2 games on that list and downloading them from your in-game client as these are free to everyone. He was barely played at TI3 or I would recommend that as an alternative.
Conclusion
I welcome criticism, feedback, and random arguments about Treant. This is intended to be a brief overview of playing Venomancer in the 4th and 5th farming positions (It has wound up being less brief than I anticipated).

If someone has more experience with playing Venomancer in the 2 or 3 position then I would both enjoy and appreciate hearing their skill builds and item progressions. I do want to note that Venomancer can be played as something of a semi-carry but as I do not personally do that with anything resembling frequency. I cannot really comment onto things even as simple as if SnY is a bad item.

I'm on the fence about some items (ie, Aquila) but I didn't think there was really a reason for me to talk about why Venomancer should or shouldn't get every item in the game.

2/20/13 update - added formatting
3/2/13 - added images for gale range, replays, and another section on an additional usage of plague wards - roshan
10/25/13 - marked this section as obsolete
11/4/13 - Updated to 6.79 parity.
VelJa
Profile Joined October 2011
France1109 Posts
February 20 2013 09:37 GMT
#2
Yeah this guide needs more stuff but u did good job. As u said, it's just a little rough. Ur update will maek it better !

A little speach about where and when using Plague Ward as Observer Wards can be usefull.
There is too a good videon on youtube (damn i don't remember the link) where we can see a jungler-veno with some tricky wards.
Add Naix to ennemies too :D

ANGRY_KOREA_MAN. -- Giff WC4 plz
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-20 09:45:44
February 20 2013 09:42 GMT
#3
@VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.

Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^

edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
February 20 2013 10:10 GMT
#4
Naix is the enemy of every hero, anyways.
Nice guide but need some more organization.

Aside from these, I think you should mention the build you start with gale-sting-sting-ward and sting max then gale max build. Most recent parameter update just wrecks the wards and they are completely useless until you level it up to 4.

Veno's great early game strength is not the wards but the harassment, imho. You have a built in 15 sec slow without leveling more so one point in gale is a must. After that just max sting especially against some melee opponents. Every time someone comes for a cs, harass him to death. It is very useful when heroes have low hp pools. One point ward can be utilized to have some vision and potion denying rather than pushing or anti pushing.

Other than these if you manage to play as some early mid game damage dealer, i prefer aquilla to yasha then maybe manta; or aquilla to shadow blade. Because aquilla helps any agility hero that benefits some mana regen, dmg and armor which veno truly needs. With these builds you can utilize some sick ganks and build an early-mid game advantage. But I am not sure if you can find some room to farm these items other than aquilla.

You can also mention more about early gem-crowing with plague wards. There is no need to carry it all the time.

And I think silencer part should be reconsidered to never solo lane against him. Last word is so annoying for low hp heroes that with some light harass you can give lots of kills to this retarded hero. Veno has no solo strength against him.

Lastly, it would be awesome for a guide to tell readers how to lane this hero with possible line-ups, nice combos and roles in more detail. Thanks.

“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
February 20 2013 10:42 GMT
#5
On February 20 2013 19:10 Laserist wrote:
Naix is the enemy of every hero, anyways.
Nice guide but need some more organization.

Aside from these, I think you should mention the build you start with gale-sting-sting-ward and sting max then gale max build. Most recent parameter update just wrecks the wards and they are completely useless until you level it up to 4.

Veno's great early game strength is not the wards but the harassment, imho. You have a built in 15 sec slow without leveling more so one point in gale is a must. After that just max sting especially against some melee opponents. Every time someone comes for a cs, harass him to death. It is very useful when heroes have low hp pools. One point ward can be utilized to have some vision and potion denying rather than pushing or anti pushing.

Other than these if you manage to play as some early mid game damage dealer, i prefer aquilla to yasha then maybe manta; or aquilla to shadow blade. Because aquilla helps any agility hero that benefits some mana regen, dmg and armor which veno truly needs. With these builds you can utilize some sick ganks and build an early-mid game advantage. But I am not sure if you can find some room to farm these items other than aquilla.

You can also mention more about early gem-crowing with plague wards. There is no need to carry it all the time.

And I think silencer part should be reconsidered to never solo lane against him. Last word is so annoying for low hp heroes that with some light harass you can give lots of kills to this retarded hero. Veno has no solo strength against him.

Lastly, it would be awesome for a guide to tell readers how to lane this hero with possible line-ups, nice combos and roles in more detail. Thanks.



Sting is good in dual lanes in pubs, but in an actual match you won't be harassing melee hero's with it. The reason professional players go 1-1-4-1 is that Gale slow is the same at level 1 as 4, Sting adds 10% slow at first level and then only 1% each level thereafter. Wards are his best scaling ability and if you put more levels in his other 2 spells you won't have the levels to max it early because supports don't get that much xp. Also a manta or shadow blade is wasted on a support and could be spend on a mek/pipe/agha if you're rich for some reason.
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34503 Posts
February 20 2013 11:03 GMT
#6
I went ahead and added this to the guide index but it sorely needs some formatting to make it easier to read. ^_^
Moderator
VelJa
Profile Joined October 2011
France1109 Posts
February 20 2013 13:03 GMT
#7
thx FoFo !=)
but this is not the video i was looking for.
In mine, we see the Ward placement to block creeps and farm then. You can get kills/XP and creeps can't hit you. With only 3/4 Wards. Really awesome!

Urn of shadows gives you regen / little bit hp pool and dot + urn is really effective in early game
ANGRY_KOREA_MAN. -- Giff WC4 plz
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
February 20 2013 17:46 GMT
#8
Good guide, though some item / skill pictures / formatting would go a long way ^^

Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex.
I love going force staff + eul's, force into enemy team -> ulti -> cyclone self -> team does cleanup :3

Might be good to note that veno wards can prevent the neutrals from spawning, meaning you can hard lane block a stack/pull or block a beastmaster trying to stack ancients etc.
:)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-20 19:41:47
February 20 2013 19:38 GMT
#9
On February 21 2013 02:46 synapse wrote:
Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex.

Unfortunately, by the time a 3rd-5th position hero like Veno would get either, Orchid isn't a satisfactory alternative to Hex because it doesn't block item usage.

Sheep also just gives better stats for Veno than Orchid does.

EDIT: Taking 2-3 points of Sting should be mentioned for solo lanes. Particularly vs. weaker melee laners, the damage on Sting scales up so aggressively that it can win you lanes very handily, more so than Ward would (particularly since Gale-Sting-Sting or Sting-Gale-Sting can start aggressively pressuring the enemy laner much earlier than the normal 3x ward by 5 build).
Moderator
Jotoco
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil1342 Posts
February 20 2013 20:41 GMT
#10
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote:
@VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.

Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^

edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage


Awesome tips.

Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.

Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.


I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.

And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.
Kuroeeah
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
11696 Posts
February 20 2013 20:57 GMT
#11
I'm happy that you mentioned that you shouldn't always get veno ult at 6 given his shit mana pool during that phase in the game. It's common that a lot of venos goes for the ult only to find that they can't use it after having used a gale....

Also worth noting is that poison nova with aghs at level 3 does a total of 1728 magic damage, that potentially makes it the most damaging magical ult in the game given you have aghs... I do agree though that 4200 is asking a bit much though.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 20 2013 22:21 GMT
#12
On February 20 2013 20:03 Firebolt145 wrote:
I went ahead and added this to the guide index but it sorely needs some formatting to make it easier to read. ^_^

I've added some formatting

On February 20 2013 18:37 VelJa wrote:
Yeah this guide needs more stuff but u did good job. As u said, it's just a little rough. Ur update will maek it better !

A little speach about where and when using Plague Ward as Observer Wards can be usefull.
There is too a good videon on youtube (damn i don't remember the link) where we can see a jungler-veno with some tricky wards.
Add Naix to ennemies too :D


I've added lengthy sections on Plague Wards. I forgot just how much technique goes into the utilization of those. I actually need to go add a segment on jungling the ancients with them (Venomancer can clear ancient stacks while taking no damage, albeit slowly).

Naix and Juggernaut are situational enemies, in my opinion. They aren't always going to be a problem the way dazzle or omni or centaur ult are. I added them under situational issues (If you can gale Naix before he gets rage off then Naix can open wounds you and then you both stare at each other while moving slowly). Also wards can seriously hamper naix's slow jungling.

Venomancer's sting goes through rage and bladefury, but wards won't stop Juggernaut from bouncing all over you, etc.


On February 21 2013 04:38 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2013 02:46 synapse wrote:
Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex.

Unfortunately, by the time a 3rd-5th position hero like Veno would get either, Orchid isn't a satisfactory alternative to Hex because it doesn't block item usage.

Sheep also just gives better stats for Veno than Orchid does.

EDIT: Taking 2-3 points of Sting should be mentioned for solo lanes. Particularly vs. weaker melee laners, the damage on Sting scales up so aggressively that it can win you lanes very handily, more so than Ward would (particularly since Gale-Sting-Sting or Sting-Gale-Sting can start aggressively pressuring the enemy laner much earlier than the normal 3x ward by 5 build).

Added a segment on that skill build, and that's precisely why I get sheep instead of orchid. Remember, we're talking post-mek, pipe, and arcanes on a low farming hero. Any true disables late in the game are going to be superior to Orchid, Orchid is more of an item for a semi-carry Venomancer who can get it early.
Doomblaze
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1292 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-20 22:33:19
February 20 2013 22:30 GMT
#13
When you're playing vs a common offlane hero like dark seer or windrunner, gale slows through level 1 windrun/surge so its possible to catch up to them after they try to escape. Also, plague wards can be used to block heroes a little bit when you chase them. It doesn't do much usually but it helps.

ALso after the gale nerf you only have enough mana to gale once or twice at level 1, and gale is nice to max out now since the mana cost remains constant.
In Mushi we trust
RisenDota
Profile Joined February 2013
United States2 Posts
February 20 2013 22:39 GMT
#14
Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.

On February 21 2013 05:41 Jotoco wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote:
@VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.

Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^

edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage


Awesome tips.

Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.

Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.


I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.

And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.


In response to this, Veno is a great support, mainly because his gale is SO op early game. The slow is the best in the game IMO. He tails off late game, but man, if you feed your carry early game like you can, it won't matter.
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34503 Posts
February 20 2013 22:41 GMT
#15
On February 21 2013 07:39 RisenDota wrote:
Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.

Show nested quote +
On February 21 2013 05:41 Jotoco wrote:
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote:
@VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.

Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^

edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage


Awesome tips.

Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.

Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.


I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.

And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.


In response to this, Veno is a great support, mainly because his gale is SO op early game. The slow is the best in the game IMO. He tails off late game, but man, if you feed your carry early game like you can, it won't matter.

No reason to get lvl 2 gale in your situation since the slow doesn't increase. Leave it at lvl 1 and start leveling your wards at lvl 3 onwards.
Moderator
Darkren
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1841 Posts
February 20 2013 23:26 GMT
#16
I just want to chip in a bit, because i played quite a few veno games, when i pick him in pubs and not cm i go for lv 1 gale, lv 2 sting, 3 ward 4 gale 5 gale 6 (skip ult ) ward 7 gale 8 ward 9 ward 10 ult 11 ult

I find this is a very good combo gale lv 1 allows u to net a kill if the ennemy is badly placed, lv 2 sting is great to set up initiation for a fight (when ur carry is 3), wards at 3 give u the ability to roam and have vision to not die.

Maxing gale helps way more for stuff like tp support or smoke ganks as in no bkb can be farmed. Skipping ult at lv 6 allows u to be more active in the game and be less at base ( i delay my mana boots till lv 10 aprox). Then u get wards lv 4 at lv 9, when the pushing of the tier 2 can start to happen ( or a late t1 push). Ult at lv 10 and 11 is for big teamfight.

Obv most of us dont play competively a game, and not being able to do shit at lv 7, because u have wards maxed besides sitting at tower or babisting hero is kinda boring and annoying ( for me).

Try it out and bring out the RAMPAGE VENO
"Yeah, I send (hopefully) helpful PM's quite frequently. You don't have to warn/ban everything" - KadaverBB
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 20 2013 23:44 GMT
#17
On February 21 2013 07:39 RisenDota wrote:
Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.

I added a section for this under overview, it's in laning allies section. It's really as dependent on the enemy lane as it is the ally lane - Juggernaut CM is a much better lane than Juggernaut Veno, but I digress. Juggernaut Veno is quite good in pubs but if you try that dual lane in captain's mode you're going to wind up against a dark seer.

I've never had issues successfully roaming with a ward max build unless my team has no damage output (in which case no matter what you're sitting around doing nothing but stacking and defending a tower). The slows are what matter for veno, and if you successfully gank an important member of their team you can easily transition from a roaming gank into pushing down their tower.
deejay
Profile Joined April 2012
Australia16 Posts
February 21 2013 02:11 GMT
#18
Good guide. I think it was sufficiently in depth and thoroughly informative.
Keep up the work
DucK-
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Singapore11447 Posts
February 21 2013 05:40 GMT
#19
Gale is a 1 point wonder. The slow is constant throughout, and the damage is soso. For that, it is common to go for wards first. And alternative solo route is to max sting first. However due to the poor scaling of gale, sometimes it's better to just go for stats over it. So instead of finishing gale at 12-14, it is ok to get them at 23-25. It's perfectly alright depending on play style and what you prioritize. The extra damage when you're already level 12 doesn't affect you that much.

Items wise, veno is an item independent hero. You can get anything on him, and it is still alright. You mainly should get what your team needs. Alternative in pubs, you could just go carry items since as 2009 mentioned, you should be more selfish in pubs and care mainly on your own tempo.
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
February 21 2013 11:30 GMT
#20
BTW, some really usefil tips for lane harrasment is giving here: http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/wrbud/psa_harassing_with_aggro_cooldown_to_avoid_aggro/

found it after searching for the 500 range aggro trick you mentioned

i didn't know about this at all, maybe useful to include it in your guide!
it's like orb-walking only then with hero's without an attack modifier!
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
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