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Toxic Sting does not stack. Treads are preeeetty much bad on veno unless you are dying to incidental damage before you can get a good ulti off.
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On October 29 2013 04:21 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 04:08 Skyro wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd. I allways thought poison sting was stackable, but now im in doubt but wiki doesnt say its not stackable! If its stackable, he gains alot from early extra attackspeed as a agihero it helps later. I wonder....
It doesn't. I think Illusions make it appear that their Poison Sting stacks with your own, but it doesn't actually slow or do any damage (it's just in place to make Illusions more believable to the enemy). Atk spd scales w/ Poison Sting if you switch to a new target every attack, but that is an incredibly unrealistic scenario outside of vs creeps, so I suppose you can make the arguement to get Treads if your role in the team is to push lanes as fast as possible.
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On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
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On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
you don't think arcanes is necessary for the mana pool/regen to ult?
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Liquid recently had a Veno build new Tranquil Boots + Soul Ring.
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On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
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I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward).
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On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
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On October 29 2013 06:56 Logo wrote:
I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward).
wards never replace your own sting, they will keep going after your own subsides.
If you had 9s of your sting, then it will be 9s 20damage and 3s 10 damage.
On another note, what kind of damage is the damage from sting? Is it pure? I see the purple damage markers going of mud golems and BKB'ed people...
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On October 29 2013 06:58 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff. And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum. With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff. Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana. And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support? Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
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On October 29 2013 06:58 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff. And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum. With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff. Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana. And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support? Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
1. Oh boy, ur alot of a better player then i am with venomancer. That force staff play is really nice! I enjoyed the replay, learned something
2. Septer, but if u dont want a septer, I would say bloodstone, necromicom or rod of atos. U dont need much more mana+manaregen, just a little bit more so maybe bloodstone is overdoing it, but bloodstone is better then HoT (thx to the teamheal future when u die).
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how can you even play veno without arcanes. dont answer that actually, you cant.
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On October 29 2013 07:01 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:56 Logo wrote:
I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward). wards never replace your own sting, they will keep going after your own subsides. If you had 9s of your sting, then it will be 9s 20damage and 3s 10 damage. On another note, what kind of damage is the damage from sting? Is it pure? I see the purple damage markers going of mud golems and BKB'ed people...
Sting is magical but pierces bkb. So it does 0 damage but still slows and if the unit loses magic immunity they will begin to take damage (important vs BKB'd targets, naix, juggernaut). Gale has the same property, and I think even nova as well (if the unit becomes magic immune after being affected). Now that sting doesn't remove regen it's not as important what damage type it is though.
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On October 29 2013 10:11 Entertaining wrote:
how can you even play veno without arcanes. dont answer that actually, you cant.
I wouldn't say that it's impossible, but I do find it hard to believe that you can have enough mana without arcanes to use your ulti in combination with your other skills when you need to.
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I am not a high level player but so far I like: arcanes, mek, force staff, in that order. I also like getting sting as my first ability so i can start lane harass very early, as I feel like that is the strongest part of venomancer. I then get a point in gale to slow if needed, then max ward. I am unsure of when i like to get ulti and I think it depends on team compositions and game state. I guess I just like the force staff because of the added survivability but mostly it is nice because it is a cheap way to contribute. Arcanes seem like a must if you wanna push and mek and use spells in team fight. If you are gonna just roam all day then I guess tranquils would work. I think power treads are very bad on veno since you shouldn't be in the position of taking damage if you and your team play it right.
The new patch buffed the higher level of sting and gale, but it seems like sting is better to get first because of the new synergy with plague wards. In all the battles i am in I just focus on casting my spells and then making sure everyone gets a poison sting, refreshing it on people who are close but not the most recent sting.
I wish I had time to try a bunch of different item builds but I don't have a ton of time so my opinion is very narrow, also I play at a non-high level in pubs so there is much inconsistency.
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FYI : Saw this game lgd vs lgd just now on D2L. The progame venomancer went for the following items during the game : Wand, arcane boots, medaillon of courage, wards, urn. smoke, pointbooster, gem (dunno if he picked it up or bought it himself) septer, forcestaff.
Edit : Furthermore, i have tried different boots and items after the wand stated in the discussion. Tranqiuls are not as great for me as i hoped, Arcane boots are a definite yes for me. Much better then PT or TQ boots.
Forcestaff is nice 3nd pickup. After that i transitioned into bloodstone which worked out great because of the low threshold items u need for it and u can alternate the purchase order to what u need. Eventually near the end of the game i got tp-boots and last the septer. Works great for me. But i do have to add that u cant engage against the enemy like a standard agihero, u are a support with arcane boots into bloodstone and should play like such. So, it takes myself some time to get used too but i believe i can get better at dota2 faster with forcestaff and arcaneboots build, so thx peeps, u guys learned me sometings
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On October 29 2013 07:25 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 06:58 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff. And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum. With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff. Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana. And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support? Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works. I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful.
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On October 29 2013 22:50 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 07:25 Skyro wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff. And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum. With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff. Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana. And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support? Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works. I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game. I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful.
Eul's active is always going to be useful no matter what stage of the game. If you're talking about Atos well I don't like Atos on Veno. Veno already has slows galore and you can get the raw stats from other items. I like Aghs on Veno, it makes it so your ulti is up every teamfight. Yeah if you get to the super late game it might feel lackluster but Veno is going to scale poorly into the late game no matter how you build him.
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On October 30 2013 01:37 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 22:50 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 07:25 Skyro wrote:On October 29 2013 06:58 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 06:42 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 04:47 Jotoco wrote:On October 29 2013 03:54 govie wrote:On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote:
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either. The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle. Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you. In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost). The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently. I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either. I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play. To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff. And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum. With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff. Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana. And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support? Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works. I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game. I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful. Eul's active is always going to be useful no matter what stage of the game. If you're talking about Atos well I don't like Atos on Veno. Veno already has slows galore and you can get the raw stats from other items. I like Aghs on Veno, it makes it so your ulti is up every teamfight. Yeah if you get to the super late game it might feel lackluster but Veno is going to scale poorly into the late game no matter how you build him.
It seems to me that veno's ulti is not too useful. By the time the damage ticks the teamfight is finished and either you won and everybody is dead or you lost and it doesn't matter because it won't kill anyone either. Maybe this coupled with a Buyback from a Zeus to clean up house.
Eul's doesn't seem much more useful either. It usually just means that you die a few seconds later instead of instantly after ulting. The current veno, for me, is much more about positioning, slowing and dishing smaller instances of damage than jumping in the middle of the fight and ulting. Your ulti is just situationally useful.
Later, if I have time, I will try to write a small guide based on my experiences with him, what I like best and what I don't think is worth it and why. It may not be the most insightful and best advices, but it may contain a couple good points.
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Nobody is suggesting you run into the middle of a team fight to ulti. There is no need to, the radius on Veno's ulti is quite large. And a large reason why Aghs is nice on Veno is not only because of the ulti upgrade but also for the raw stats. I would spend the premium for Aghs over Atos all day every day on Veno.
And you are overgeneralizing. If for some reason both teams are made up of super squishy heroes where team fights end in like 2 secs then obviously you picked the wrong hero. Very broadly speaking you're going to be picking Veno vs tanky meeles where you know your DoTs and snares are going to be effective.
I don't know what to say about Eul's other than you are vastly underrating the item.
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EPT
