- Poison Nova no longer ignores invis/fogged units - Venomous Gale no longer ignores invis units - Venomous Gale damage over time rebalanced from 15/30/45/60 to 0/30/60/90 - Poison Sting duration increased from 6/8/10/12 to 6/9/12/15 - Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger - Plague Wards now have Poison Sting for 50% of the damage at the current skilled level (When both Venomancer and a Plague Ward affect a target, only the highest dps is applied) - Plague Wards XP bounty increased from 12/12/25/25 to 20/25/30/35
* The following abilities no longer automatically ignore backswing time by default: Rupture, Malefice, Venomous Gale, Stifling Dagger, Flamebreak, Wave of Terror, Shadow Word and Power Cogs
Also of note, passive gold income is increased as well as the bounty on towers.
Lesale Deathbringer, The Venomancer
Table of Contents Overview Friends and Enemies Gale Range Purge? What purge? Regular Skill Build Alternate Skill Builds Harassment and Laning Techniques Plague Wards Situational issues Item Builds Replays Conclusion Overview Lesale Deathbringer, the Venomancer is a dire agility hero capable of being played in positions between 2-5, though is most often seen as the 4 or 5 position hero. He has three damage over time abilities, 2 of them AOE, 2 of them strong slows, and he has an anti-push/pushing ability. This guide is going to cover running Venomancer in the fourth or fifth farming position (ie, as a support). Stats - 18 Strength + 1.85 Strength per level 22 Agility + 2.6 15 Int + 1.75 Strengths -Versatile, fits into most lineups. -Venomancer's wards are exceptionally good at pushing or slowing pushes due to their physical, magic immune nature (kotl blast isn't going to bother him) -Has three abilities that are impossible to purge (ie, turning on BKB or casting repel does not remove them) -Capable roamer -Extremely strong laner, pusher/anti-pusher, and early-midgame teamfighter Weaknesses -Squishy, low hp and strength gain -Mana starved (items that increase his mana pool are a must, though the spells are not excessively costly) -Poor movement speed -Low range for a support hero -Reliant on a skillshot ability in the laning phase -Impact decreases as the game goes on -No true disable Friends Venomancer fits into most lineups, though he generally wants some stuns to follow up his slows as he has no real disable. Warlock and him can make for absolutely brutal teamfights with fatal bonds and poison nova. Witch Doctor, Zeus, and I think Axe can prevent "enemy has been denied" issues (maledict is a very strong combination, Zeus can ult after people have been brought low, and you cannot deny a battle hungered target [my mechanics may be failing me here]). Laning Allies -He's trilane friends with CM (she has similarly ranged initiation spells and a disable, and can help his mana problems), -Witch Doctor (1000 range stun + maledict prevents enemies from denying), and most 600 range support heroes. There are very few carries who can't be supported by a venomancer, but ones with a stun are probably better to prevent the opponents from just tping away. -Juggernaut is a popular pub hero to lane with him. -Luna synergizes well with Veno due to her long range .6 stun nuke (this lets Venomancer hit gale on heroes slightly faster than him) and high movement speed despite the low range of the lane. -Drow and veno is a rather deadly, but squishy lane. The slows are extremely high. -Chaos Knight works well for the same reasons that Luna does, however Veno's low autoattack range can make this weak vs 600 range heroes. -Venomancer is going to prefer carries who have kill potential at early levels, basically. Spectre is about all I can think of in the category of carries that don't give Venomancer sufficient kill potential. Enemies Omniknight, Dazzle, Chen, Abaddon. Essentially, healing lineups make venomancer's life hell since he is so reliant on damage overtime. Nothing quite like taking someone down to 3 hp and hearing "All are healed". Also Centaur, Lycan, and Dark Seer, who don't care about your slows. The two worst enemies for Venomancer - -Abaddon You HATE this guy. Absolutely HATE him. His aphotic shield can remove any of your poisons on himself or allies, and his ult takes care of that as well. -Slark Same deal as Abaddon, but at least he can only purge himself.
Abilities
Venomous Gale - Releases a Venomous Gale which poisons enemy units it comes in contact with (this is essentially a linear 125 radius line originating from Venomancer's location). Poisoned units take initial damage, damage over time (every 3 seconds), and have their movement speed slowed for a short duration, recovering it over time. Legacy hotkey E, normal hotkey Q. Level 1/2/3/4 Mana cost - 125/125/125/125 Initial Damage- 25/50/75/100 Damage over time - 0/30/60/90 Slow - 50% Cast Range 800
Special notes - The damage can be removed by repel or bkb but the slow cannot. Total damage per level - 25 / 200 / 375 / 550. Also, even though it deals no damage aside from the initial strike in theory, in practice Gale deals 5 instances of 0 damage and level 1 gale still disables blink dagger with these instances (this is probably a bug). Gale's Range I' m not exactly certain on the precise range of this spell, but it goes at least 125 past the cast range due to the radius and seems to be capable of going up to just short in of 1000 range. Factor in that most heroes have 24 collision size and the range is somewhere between 950-1000. Here are some pictures to demonstrate this - The cast range - when I cast gale from this range on the harpies, it actually hit every harpy (that's why the next image is a different creep camp/slightly different position). Actual range - note that this is the distance I was from the creeps before casting gale, the hp bars should give away what was hit (upon casting it again the kobold taskmaster was not hit). The range display is set to 1000.
Toxic Sting- A passive spell that adds damage over time and slow to Venomancer's auto attacks. Level 1/2/3/4 Slow 10/11/12/13% Duration 6/9/12/15 Damage 5/10/15/20
Special notes - Cannot be purged and the slow goes through BKB, does not disable blink dagger or regeneration of any form. Total damage: 30 / 90 / 180 / 300. Plague Ward 20 mana, 1200 vision range, 850 cast range, lasts 40 seconds, applies a poison sting debuff of 50% the damage of Venomancer's current level of sting(highest poison sting damage takes priority, they do not stack). Armor type heavy, damage type piercing. 1 75 hit points, 11 max damage 2 200 hit points, 21 max damage 3 325 hit points, 32 max damage 4 450 hit points, 42 max damage
Poison Nova Mana Cost 200/300/400 CD - 140/120/100 (60 with Aghanim's) Damage per Second - 36 / 58 / 81 With Aghanim's Upgrade - 58 / 81 / 108
Does massive damage over time in an 830 radius around venomancer but the damage is non-lethal, by itself it will not drop enemy units hp below 1. Can also not be purged (except by Abaddon and Slark), though BKB does stop the damage while it is active and it cannot hit targets who are magic immune. [/spoiler]
Purge? What purge? Summary of notable aspects of the spells not in the descriptions- None of venomancers abilities can be purged (not by bkb, manta, repel, etc.) with two notable exceptions (Abaddon and Slark) though the damage is blocked while BKB, Rage, or bladefury are active. Poison sting penetrates magic immunity, however none of the rest do. Skill build Standard (Pusher/Anti-Pusher) - 1 - Venomous Gale 2 - Poison Sting 3 - Plague Ward 4 - Plague Ward 5 - Plague Ward 6 - Poison Nova* 7 - Plague Ward *** Suggested - 8 - Venomous Gale 9 - Sting 10 - Sting 11 - Gale 12 - Sting 13 - Gale 14 - Gale *** Leveling the ult every time it is available seems fairly obvious, however, taking the ult at 6 is actually not always the best idea- it is quite frequent for Venomancer's full mana pool to not support a casting of Gale and Nova at that level depending on the items he has.
Explanation - In about 95% of games the standard section of this is going to be the appropriate build. The slow does not increase on Gale and slow increase on sting is minimal and a single point is sufficient to win harassment wars with most opponents. This build is appropriate as a solo, part of a trilane, even roaming (it allows him to transition out of roaming into pushing rapidly), and vs most mids. It's especially effective at allowing Venomancer to farm or push. The secondary suggested will be appropriate the majority of games but may not be ideal.
Damage Thresholds and why Venomancer cares Now, as to why you would want to take two points in Gale early has to do with the way regeneration items work in dota. It requires 20 pre-reduction magical damage to cancel out a bottle or healing salve (or clarity for that matter). Level 1 Gale does not prevent opponents from using regenerative consumables, basically. Bottle is the important issue here - there is sufficient time between ticks of gale to consume a bottle charge (if the person times it perfectly). By the time Venomancer is level 8 it really isn't as much of a factor as it would be earlier in lane, but all physical damage instantly cancels regen (your wards deal physical damage and have a tremendous 850 cast and 1200 vision range, they are much superior to canceling regeneration in comparison to venomancers autoattack and have a low mana cost making this more feasible, though it requires precise micro with the lower levels of wards).
Standard Mid-late Game Skill Build After wards are maxed, Max sting with two points in gale, generally (though not always). It's intuitive and situational as to whether to max gale or sting. Sting synergizes with plague wards while Gale is an AOE slow. If you are dying after only being able to get off ults/gales in fights then maxing gale is the obvious choice, especially if there is never sufficient time to get a ward field placed during a fight.
Gale does 25/200/375/550 total damage over 15 seconds (22x more damage at level 4 than level 1, notice that the damage is going up by a flat 175 damage from each point - it's probably more accurate to say that level 4 gale is 2.5x as strong as level 2 gale) and if you can hit multiple enemies with it it is an amazing teamfight ability. It's still amazing as a ganking ability despite the 75 damage nerf to level 1 gale in 6.79. Poison sting does 30/90/180/300 damage (10x more damage and also ticks out consistently over 15 seconds instead in 3 second intervals over 15 seconds). Venomancer's 450 attack range and relative squishyness means that it is unlikely that he is going to be able to hit 5 enemy heroes in a teamfight before the teamfight is over, but now that wards apply 50% strength toxic sting this matters a lot less. If you are against several melee heroes who are easily kited but have BKB's (think Naix or an Omni paired with a slow melee carry) then maxing sting may be useful as the bkbs aren't going to affect the slow component of Gale or Sting, but they will prevent the damage portion of Gale.
Alternate Skill builds I almost never play non-ward max Venomancer so someone else would be much better to ask. I honestly never see a point in skipping wards entirely. Even if you are maxing one of the other skills, a point in it at level 4 to cancel regen or gain vision is extremely useful. So this is the non-max-ward build I typically do 1- Gale 2- Sting 3- Gale 4 - Ward 5 - Gale 6 - Ult 7 - Gale 8-10 - Sting 11 - Ult 12-14 wards/stats (I really can't think of why someone would TOTALLY skip leveling wards even late in the game) 16 ult
An alternate build meant for soloing vs melee or low range heroes - 1- Gale/Sting 2- Sting/Gale 3- Sting 4- Ward 5- Gale/Sting
Either being 1/3 or 2/2 is desired at level 5. 2/2 helps vs people reliant on bottles while 1/3 is better if you have are able to rain down autoattacks. The single point in wards helps maintain rune control vs the majority of heroes. I still would advise transitioning to wards out of this most games as being in the solo position means you should be getting enough XP to make the wards be timed correctly even if you get them a few levels later. *****
There are situations where your wards are pointless as pushing or anti-pushing tools, in general if you are in those situations Venomancer wasn't a good pick. If extreme roaming is the desire then maxing Gale is probably better than maxing Sting.
Rejected skill builds - Poison sting/stats. (Yes, I've seen this). This doesn't help Veno's limited carry potential because it destroys his ability to farm and a point of stats is far worse than a point in gale for pretty much any purpose.
Harassment, Laning, and Plague Ward Techniques The technique behind harassing with venomancer is slightly different than with other supports - a single hit is going to add 30 magic damage to your attack but renewing the debuff is somewhat of a waste (generically, you can trade blows every 6 seconds and come out ahead vs heroes who have <30 damage higher than yours).
The 500 aggro range trick is especially good on venomancer. Issue an attack command on an enemy hero outside of 500 range of the lane creeps and in the next 2 seconds you can autoattack that hero without drawing creep aggro.
Wards deserve special mention for a variety of uses. Throwing out a ward to cancel enemy clarities/salves is one of the most annoying things in the game (even a single hit from a level 1 ward will do this due to their physical damage).
Plague Ward Usage
The scaling on Plague wards is that level 4 wards have 6x the hp of level 1 wards, with the damage being approximately 4x. Basically, a level 3 plague ward is like being able to summon a magic immune ranged creep for 20 mana, with a level 4 ward dealing almost double the damage of ranged creeps.
Using Plague wards to trap enemies in the trees is a skill that venomancers are going to want to practice, as well as using them to block off access to the spot they've juked towards, or even blocking off access to and from the dire ramp for roshan with three - there are almost limitless possibilities for this kind of terrain abuse.
Plague Wards are well, wards. They behave in the exact same manner as a ward except they only have 1200 vision range but can attack, have higher hp at higher levels, and have a collision size. Anything that an observer or sentry ward can block can be blocked by a plague ward. This means any stack attempt by the enemy, adds the ability to perma block a creep camp close to your lane. Throwing plague wards into the woods near an enemy's pull camp and putting it on hold position so it doesn't attack can be frustrating to the enemy team as it takes either tangos or a flying courier to deward and it's difficult to prevent you from getting close enough to do this. Also as radiant safe lane it's easy to block a tinker or beast master ancient stack with plague wards.
Note that you can place wards outside of the block range of the ancient spawns and then proceed to drag the ancients towards them after having made a ward field (or just to stack) and your wards will kill the ancients while they try to chase you down. This works on either the radiant or dire sides, but can be a lengthy process and your team might prefer if you didn't do this.
Wards last 40 seconds and can allow a venomancer to scout rune spots and destroy the runes without being there as long as ward is placed at ~x:20 or later. (A poor man's ward, if you will). Similarly the ward can be used as an excellent counter-ganking tool or scouting tool, especially vs trilanes that are very heavy on counter-warding normal observer wards. The number of ganks level 1 wards can prevent is frequently quite surprising - the vision from even the second it takes them to kill the ward is sufficient to get an update on the enemy positions. This aspect of wards is part of why Veno was ever run as a solo.
Pushing and anti-pushing with wards Any level of wards are useful as pushing tools. Level 3 and 4 wards are much more effective, however. The basic principle behind pushing with wards is to create a ward field and slowly push the ward field to just outside of tower range (especially true for level 3 wards). Placing the wards in a small aoe (you can make rows, flowers, etc.) enables them to focus their damage.
Diving past a field of level 3 or 4 wards early in the game can be almost as bad as diving through Rhasta's wards. Once the ward field is outside of tower range, it can be determined if the enemy team wants to defend the tower or is capable of doing so. If the enemies aren't capable of nuking down creep waves instantly then level 4 wards may be placed in areas that are annoying to kill around the tower (in the trees, etc.) or within tower range to manually target the wards, as the tower will never target wards if there are other enemy units nearby. (Level 3 wards don't have sufficient hp to justify placing them within tower range, while level 4 wards can build up a ward field within tower range as long as the creep wave lives for sufficient time).
For defending pushes you want to use one of two principles - either place the wards in the trees or places that are extremely annoying to kill, or group them behind the tower in anticipation of a dive/because it makes them extremely hard to kill (ie, the enemy team must tower dive to kill wards) while they remain very strong at killing off creep waves.
Roshan Venomancers plague wards are exceptionally strong vs Roshan if he gets early levels. He's not quite capable of soloing, but plague wards are one of the best skills in the game to speed up a roshan attempt. (If basing a strategy around this a medallion becomes more useful than it would be otherwise).
Situational Skill notes
These are notes vs specific heroes.
-Going middle versus TA It takes two points in toxic sting for an instance of damage from it to burn through one of TA's refraction charges, so a Venomancer sent mid to counter TA typically gets two points in poison sting by level 3. -Versus silencer If a silencer is on the board, save your skill point at level 1 until you see if you are laning against him and what his skill build is. A point in wards at level 1 can make his curse of the silent completely useless. Venomancer is one of the few heroes in the game who is actually hurt significantly by level 1 curse's mana drain. Most silencers won't level CotS vs a Veno, so it's best to wait to see what they've skilled. -Versus Lifestealer Naix is actually not as amazing versus Venomancer as it may seem on paper. They practically counter each other. If naix is hit by venomous gale before raging (this comes down to who has the fastest fingers or lower ping) then the slow is still going to affect him and toxic sting will always affect him, as will plague wards. As an agility hero Veno isn't the best hero for naix to beat up on anyways, he won't regain a ton of hp or deal much damage from feast. What Naix excels at however is escaping from a gank from venomancer using infest. -Juggernaut Same deal as Naix but with the danger of omnislash. The slow from toxic sting penetrating bladefury makes a lane against him one of the few times level toxic sting at level 1 is going to be a good idea (but if he goes boots first sting's slow isn't going to be strong enough to save you) -Abaddon You HATE this guy. Absolutely HATE him. His aphotic shield can remove any of your poisons on himself or allies, and his ult takes care of that as well. -Slark Same deal as Abaddon, but at least he can only purge himself.
Items as Support Starting items - Standard - And in addition either or
(If in the safelane buy 1 clarity and to enable pulls and dewarding)
Full roaming - (ONLY do this if you are sure that level 1 roaming will be successful- this is a very all-in strategy aimed at ensuring rune control vs an easily ganked rune dependent mid hero like Shadow Fiend, Death Prophet)
Core items - There are many possible item progressions for a Venomancer. The essential thing that he needs is a larger mana pool. Any item that grants this is useful and can be a starting point for your own build. My personal build - Core - , constant up-keep of if 5th position, if 4th. For counterwarding eventually a if no one else on the team is getting one, sometimes even if they are - this item makes pushes and laning both significantly stronger for Venomancer. Situational - , , Late-game -, Notes- Wand is not required by Venomancer, although a magic stick is usually nice. It's a lane dependent decision. This is part of why the starting build I have for him only has two branches - those are to build into a mekansm, not a wand. This build is aimed around being able to get a rax during the period where Venomancer still has a heavy impact. I prefer arcanes both as a mana item and, along with mekansm, as an aid in sustaining pushes. If there is a better Mek carrier on the team and they are actually making it, then I will get an urn and headdress to make into a pipe. Gems and Counterwarding Venomancer is one of the best Gem carriers in the game due to his plague wards. Throwing them down lets him counterward places that would be difficult for anyone besides himself or Beastmaster to spot. I almost always get an early gem on Venomancer if I suspect that my opponents have any wards at all, even if they have no invisible heroes. As pointed out by those in the thread, if no invisible heroes exist (and sometimes even if) you will want to use the courier to ferry the gem back to fountain when you aren't actively counterwarding.
Items, Continued An example of an alternate item build-
Treads, Forcestaff, Urn, Drums, .
-This build does not offer the same sustainability as the mek/arcane boot build but does offer better immediate survivability and superior mobility while providing sufficient mana to ult.
Expanded list of situational items - For support midgame- Eul's, Force Staff, Ghost Scepter, Drums, Tranquils, Treads, Phase Boots, Veil of Discord, Shadowblade*, Medallion of Courage**, Orchid, Agh's***
*- I don't particularly like shadowblade on Venomancer as he shouldn't be in the situation of needing it, he should not be a primary initiator on a team. More on this in rejected items. Shadowblade is acceptable as an escape and positioning tool that also adds some nice stats ** Medallion is mostly if your team needs one for rapid roshan in conjunction with plague wards. Venomancer deals tremendous magical damage, Medallion does not amplify his damage significantly at all. *** I was on the fence on Agh's in 6.78, but in 6.79 venomancer can usually get Aghanim's early enough to make it worth an acquisition.This is much more true of 2nd-4th position Venomancers than fifth positons though.
The primary focus of these items are either survivability(ghost scepter), mobility (forcestaff/eul's), utility (urn, necro 3), teamfight (drums, veil) or ways to increase your crowd control. (My most preferred items like scythe, mek, pipe I left up in my preferred item build section)
Rejected items - Commonly seen - Orb of Venom - this adds a 3% slow and 3 magical damage per second to your attack. Yes, it stacks with poison sting, but going from 11-14% is not worth the inventory slot. The low duration also means that you're essentially spending 275 gold to add 12 damage to your attack. Blink Dagger - Venomancer's issue is almost never about difficulties in getting into position to hit multiple people with his ult or gale. His issue is staying alive either long enough to cast it or long enough to do anything besides cast it. Poison Nova has a massive aoe and Gale has an immense range. Blink dagger does nothing but starve mana on Venomancer. It's like getting a Blink on Kunkka or a hero with similarly long ranged spells. Why? Vanguard-it's an old relic of the ranged vanguard days. Refresher - You already have mana problems and your ult lasts 15 seconds. Desolater- The added damage is nice. Same issue as with the medallion of courage, however - you primarily are dealing magical damage and this doesn't amplify that at all. Bloodstone - You have mana pool issues, not mana regeneration issues Rod of Atos - It's not the worst item for you, but you already have two 1000+ range slows and it doesn't give you any sort of a true lock down. Replays Unfortunately replays are only stored for what appears to be a week nowadays, so I've taken the liberty of uploading two replays. I believe that this should be workable. There are two replays included, one is a 6.75 replay of Orange's winter doing the boots + ward opening and semi-roaming. If you want to learn how to harass, this is the replay to watch - set your perspective to winters' (yes, he goes vanguard but he can go what he feels like).
The other replay is just me playing out my standard build in a pub game in the off-lane with a witch doctor as an ally. (I'm nowhere near as good as winter, it's just a replay for replays sake. http://www.mediafire.com/?ie4h18mr1k5wx9p
Here's a 6.79 FPVOD of myself solo queued in a pub game with commentary, the majority of the focus is on tricks like how to place plague wards properly.. I can upload the replay if anyone asks.
For more venomancer replays I recommend using datdota. The most common skill builds and item pickups per patch can also easily be mined from it. http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Venomancer
Venomancer has 700 games in that database. If you want replays but don't want to spend money on tournament tickets, then I recommend finding The international 2 games on that list and downloading them from your in-game client as these are free to everyone. He was barely played at TI3 or I would recommend that as an alternative. Conclusion I welcome criticism, feedback, and random arguments about Treant. This is intended to be a brief overview of playing Venomancer in the 4th and 5th farming positions (It has wound up being less brief than I anticipated).
If someone has more experience with playing Venomancer in the 2 or 3 position then I would both enjoy and appreciate hearing their skill builds and item progressions. I do want to note that Venomancer can be played as something of a semi-carry but as I do not personally do that with anything resembling frequency. I cannot really comment onto things even as simple as if SnY is a bad item.
I'm on the fence about some items (ie, Aquila) but I didn't think there was really a reason for me to talk about why Venomancer should or shouldn't get every item in the game.
2/20/13 update - added formatting 3/2/13 - added images for gale range, replays, and another section on an additional usage of plague wards - roshan 10/25/13 - marked this section as obsolete 11/4/13 - Updated to 6.79 parity.
Yeah this guide needs more stuff but u did good job. As u said, it's just a little rough. Ur update will maek it better !
A little speach about where and when using Plague Ward as Observer Wards can be usefull. There is too a good videon on youtube (damn i don't remember the link) where we can see a jungler-veno with some tricky wards. Add Naix to ennemies too :D
@VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.
Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^
edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage
Naix is the enemy of every hero, anyways. Nice guide but need some more organization.
Aside from these, I think you should mention the build you start with gale-sting-sting-ward and sting max then gale max build. Most recent parameter update just wrecks the wards and they are completely useless until you level it up to 4.
Veno's great early game strength is not the wards but the harassment, imho. You have a built in 15 sec slow without leveling more so one point in gale is a must. After that just max sting especially against some melee opponents. Every time someone comes for a cs, harass him to death. It is very useful when heroes have low hp pools. One point ward can be utilized to have some vision and potion denying rather than pushing or anti pushing.
Other than these if you manage to play as some early mid game damage dealer, i prefer aquilla to yasha then maybe manta; or aquilla to shadow blade. Because aquilla helps any agility hero that benefits some mana regen, dmg and armor which veno truly needs. With these builds you can utilize some sick ganks and build an early-mid game advantage. But I am not sure if you can find some room to farm these items other than aquilla.
You can also mention more about early gem-crowing with plague wards. There is no need to carry it all the time.
And I think silencer part should be reconsidered to never solo lane against him. Last word is so annoying for low hp heroes that with some light harass you can give lots of kills to this retarded hero. Veno has no solo strength against him.
Lastly, it would be awesome for a guide to tell readers how to lane this hero with possible line-ups, nice combos and roles in more detail. Thanks.
On February 20 2013 19:10 Laserist wrote: Naix is the enemy of every hero, anyways. Nice guide but need some more organization.
Aside from these, I think you should mention the build you start with gale-sting-sting-ward and sting max then gale max build. Most recent parameter update just wrecks the wards and they are completely useless until you level it up to 4.
Veno's great early game strength is not the wards but the harassment, imho. You have a built in 15 sec slow without leveling more so one point in gale is a must. After that just max sting especially against some melee opponents. Every time someone comes for a cs, harass him to death. It is very useful when heroes have low hp pools. One point ward can be utilized to have some vision and potion denying rather than pushing or anti pushing.
Other than these if you manage to play as some early mid game damage dealer, i prefer aquilla to yasha then maybe manta; or aquilla to shadow blade. Because aquilla helps any agility hero that benefits some mana regen, dmg and armor which veno truly needs. With these builds you can utilize some sick ganks and build an early-mid game advantage. But I am not sure if you can find some room to farm these items other than aquilla.
You can also mention more about early gem-crowing with plague wards. There is no need to carry it all the time.
And I think silencer part should be reconsidered to never solo lane against him. Last word is so annoying for low hp heroes that with some light harass you can give lots of kills to this retarded hero. Veno has no solo strength against him.
Lastly, it would be awesome for a guide to tell readers how to lane this hero with possible line-ups, nice combos and roles in more detail. Thanks.
Sting is good in dual lanes in pubs, but in an actual match you won't be harassing melee hero's with it. The reason professional players go 1-1-4-1 is that Gale slow is the same at level 1 as 4, Sting adds 10% slow at first level and then only 1% each level thereafter. Wards are his best scaling ability and if you put more levels in his other 2 spells you won't have the levels to max it early because supports don't get that much xp. Also a manta or shadow blade is wasted on a support and could be spend on a mek/pipe/agha if you're rich for some reason.
thx FoFo !=) but this is not the video i was looking for. In mine, we see the Ward placement to block creeps and farm then. You can get kills/XP and creeps can't hit you. With only 3/4 Wards. Really awesome!
Urn of shadows gives you regen / little bit hp pool and dot + urn is really effective in early game
Good guide, though some item / skill pictures / formatting would go a long way ^^
Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex. I love going force staff + eul's, force into enemy team -> ulti -> cyclone self -> team does cleanup :3
Might be good to note that veno wards can prevent the neutrals from spawning, meaning you can hard lane block a stack/pull or block a beastmaster trying to stack ancients etc.
On February 21 2013 02:46 synapse wrote: Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex.
Unfortunately, by the time a 3rd-5th position hero like Veno would get either, Orchid isn't a satisfactory alternative to Hex because it doesn't block item usage.
Sheep also just gives better stats for Veno than Orchid does.
EDIT: Taking 2-3 points of Sting should be mentioned for solo lanes. Particularly vs. weaker melee laners, the damage on Sting scales up so aggressively that it can win you lanes very handily, more so than Ward would (particularly since Gale-Sting-Sting or Sting-Gale-Sting can start aggressively pressuring the enemy laner much earlier than the normal 3x ward by 5 build).
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote: @VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.
Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^
edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage
Awesome tips.
Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.
Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.
I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.
And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.
I'm happy that you mentioned that you shouldn't always get veno ult at 6 given his shit mana pool during that phase in the game. It's common that a lot of venos goes for the ult only to find that they can't use it after having used a gale....
Also worth noting is that poison nova with aghs at level 3 does a total of 1728 magic damage, that potentially makes it the most damaging magical ult in the game given you have aghs... I do agree though that 4200 is asking a bit much though.
On February 20 2013 20:03 Firebolt145 wrote: I went ahead and added this to the guide index but it sorely needs some formatting to make it easier to read. ^_^
I've added some formatting
On February 20 2013 18:37 VelJa wrote: Yeah this guide needs more stuff but u did good job. As u said, it's just a little rough. Ur update will maek it better !
A little speach about where and when using Plague Ward as Observer Wards can be usefull. There is too a good videon on youtube (damn i don't remember the link) where we can see a jungler-veno with some tricky wards. Add Naix to ennemies too :D
I've added lengthy sections on Plague Wards. I forgot just how much technique goes into the utilization of those. I actually need to go add a segment on jungling the ancients with them (Venomancer can clear ancient stacks while taking no damage, albeit slowly).
Naix and Juggernaut are situational enemies, in my opinion. They aren't always going to be a problem the way dazzle or omni or centaur ult are. I added them under situational issues (If you can gale Naix before he gets rage off then Naix can open wounds you and then you both stare at each other while moving slowly). Also wards can seriously hamper naix's slow jungling.
Venomancer's sting goes through rage and bladefury, but wards won't stop Juggernaut from bouncing all over you, etc.
On February 21 2013 02:46 synapse wrote: Personally I've preferred orchid over sheep on veno. Gale + silence = basically a hex.
Unfortunately, by the time a 3rd-5th position hero like Veno would get either, Orchid isn't a satisfactory alternative to Hex because it doesn't block item usage.
Sheep also just gives better stats for Veno than Orchid does.
EDIT: Taking 2-3 points of Sting should be mentioned for solo lanes. Particularly vs. weaker melee laners, the damage on Sting scales up so aggressively that it can win you lanes very handily, more so than Ward would (particularly since Gale-Sting-Sting or Sting-Gale-Sting can start aggressively pressuring the enemy laner much earlier than the normal 3x ward by 5 build).
Added a segment on that skill build, and that's precisely why I get sheep instead of orchid. Remember, we're talking post-mek, pipe, and arcanes on a low farming hero. Any true disables late in the game are going to be superior to Orchid, Orchid is more of an item for a semi-carry Venomancer who can get it early.
When you're playing vs a common offlane hero like dark seer or windrunner, gale slows through level 1 windrun/surge so its possible to catch up to them after they try to escape. Also, plague wards can be used to block heroes a little bit when you chase them. It doesn't do much usually but it helps.
ALso after the gale nerf you only have enough mana to gale once or twice at level 1, and gale is nice to max out now since the mana cost remains constant.
Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote: @VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.
Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^
edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage
Awesome tips.
Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.
Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.
I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.
And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.
In response to this, Veno is a great support, mainly because his gale is SO op early game. The slow is the best in the game IMO. He tails off late game, but man, if you feed your carry early game like you can, it won't matter.
On February 21 2013 07:39 RisenDota wrote: Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.
On February 20 2013 18:42 FoFo wrote: @VeIJa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1udjAPS_OfY, useful for when your trilane is safe and need to pick up some gold from the jungle, but i do not advise going full jungling veno.
Anyway really nice guide man thanks for this! recently started playing veno more and was searching for some tips on wards (can't wait to try cancelling a mana pot with them LOL) and why 1-1-4-1 is a good build, thanks for the pointers ^^
edit: btw, a particularly nice friend to have imo is warlock. fatal bonds -> veno ulti on those units -> warlock ult, is a hell of a lot of damage
Awesome tips.
Jungling is somewhat of a gimmicky, but works if there is the need.
Now, Warlock + Veno is excellent as 4th + 5th. Fatal Bonds is awesome. Always. Fatal Bonds + High damage big AOE is spectacular! Even when the AOE is dot.
I like venomancer. But he has too few HP and Mana, is slow, has low attack.... The only saving grace are his skills, and they are not really better than others. Only his ult is very good, and even then not THE best. His utility lies in the wards, I think. Because if he didn't have the wards, Warlock, for example, would be simply better in almost every way.
And GOD, is it difficult to farm with Veno! Or is it just me? Lane farming is just terrible, I don't really know why I can't get last hits with him. Even Omni is easier for me. I don't know why.
In response to this, Veno is a great support, mainly because his gale is SO op early game. The slow is the best in the game IMO. He tails off late game, but man, if you feed your carry early game like you can, it won't matter.
No reason to get lvl 2 gale in your situation since the slow doesn't increase. Leave it at lvl 1 and start leveling your wards at lvl 3 onwards.
I just want to chip in a bit, because i played quite a few veno games, when i pick him in pubs and not cm i go for lv 1 gale, lv 2 sting, 3 ward 4 gale 5 gale 6 (skip ult ) ward 7 gale 8 ward 9 ward 10 ult 11 ult
I find this is a very good combo gale lv 1 allows u to net a kill if the ennemy is badly placed, lv 2 sting is great to set up initiation for a fight (when ur carry is 3), wards at 3 give u the ability to roam and have vision to not die.
Maxing gale helps way more for stuff like tp support or smoke ganks as in no bkb can be farmed. Skipping ult at lv 6 allows u to be more active in the game and be less at base ( i delay my mana boots till lv 10 aprox). Then u get wards lv 4 at lv 9, when the pushing of the tier 2 can start to happen ( or a late t1 push). Ult at lv 10 and 11 is for big teamfight.
Obv most of us dont play competively a game, and not being able to do shit at lv 7, because u have wards maxed besides sitting at tower or babisting hero is kinda boring and annoying ( for me).
On February 21 2013 07:39 RisenDota wrote: Good guide overall, but I would add people that Veno is great to lane with. Veno and Jugger are almost gaurenteed first blood at level 3. Level 2 gale with a level 2 spin from jug, and the opponents melt. Even if they have disables it won't save them because your gale is the only thing veno needs to do, and then jug has magic immune.
I added a section for this under overview, it's in laning allies section. It's really as dependent on the enemy lane as it is the ally lane - Juggernaut CM is a much better lane than Juggernaut Veno, but I digress. Juggernaut Veno is quite good in pubs but if you try that dual lane in captain's mode you're going to wind up against a dark seer.
I've never had issues successfully roaming with a ward max build unless my team has no damage output (in which case no matter what you're sitting around doing nothing but stacking and defending a tower). The slows are what matter for veno, and if you successfully gank an important member of their team you can easily transition from a roaming gank into pushing down their tower.
Gale is a 1 point wonder. The slow is constant throughout, and the damage is soso. For that, it is common to go for wards first. And alternative solo route is to max sting first. However due to the poor scaling of gale, sometimes it's better to just go for stats over it. So instead of finishing gale at 12-14, it is ok to get them at 23-25. It's perfectly alright depending on play style and what you prioritize. The extra damage when you're already level 12 doesn't affect you that much.
Items wise, veno is an item independent hero. You can get anything on him, and it is still alright. You mainly should get what your team needs. Alternative in pubs, you could just go carry items since as 2009 mentioned, you should be more selfish in pubs and care mainly on your own tempo.
I updated with two images to demonstrate Gale's true range, added a bit more formatting, a section on plague wards + roshan, and uploaded 2 replays. Also edited text here and there (updated allies section), I can't remember all the changes.
I need to get around to adding images for skill builds/items but it's very tedious work. edit - If anyone knows what gale's true range is, please let me know. I think it's 1000 but that would be a bug, it should be 959 at max vs a 24 collision sized unit.
Direct 6.79 changes to venomancer. Mixture of nerfs and buffs, but it lands squarely on the side of buffs in my opinion -
Venomancer - Poison Nova no longer ignores invis/fogged units - Venomous Gale no longer ignores invis units - Venomous Gale damage over time rebalanced from 15/30/45/60 to 0/30/60/90 - Poison Sting duration increased from 6/8/10/12 to 6/9/12/15 - Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger - Plague Wards now have Poison Sting for 50% of the damage at the current skilled level (When both Venomancer and a Plague Ward affect a target, only the highest dps is applied) - Plague Wards XP bounty increased from 12/12/25/25 to 20/25/30/35
Also of note -
* The following abilities no longer automatically ignore backswing time by default: Rupture, Malefice, Venomous Gale, Stifling Dagger, Flamebreak, Wave of Terror, Shadow Word and Power Cogs
(this is a nerf).
I need to update this guide, however I don't think there's a competitive consensus on Venos skill build yet. I think I saw DK's MMY do level 1 gale 2/3 sting 4/5 wards 6 ult then max wards, then finish maxing sting. Not sure if the point at level 3 was due to mana constraints though.
Gale max seems less underwhelming but the utility of the spell at level 1 is unchanged and wards are just better. 2 points in gale still cancels regeneration ticks, but 1 ward hit takes off any regeneration. However sting now never takes off regen so maxing it would be less attractive if wards didn't get it now.
I see no reason why his item build would change tremendously though (tranquils are a better option for him if he wants to roam now is probably the biggest change).
So skill build thoughts?
edit - also, I can't edit the OP anymore. Was going to add a note that the guide was out of date in bold at the top.
Hey Nevuk, thanks for your guide, I have been using it as the basis for my venomancer play. I was hoping you would say something about 6.79!
I love the changes to him. I think giving the plague wards poison sting is so good. It feels like it greatly increases my harass potential.
So now gale is worse at level 1, same at 2, better at 3+4 right? I think the skill build you mentioned from MMY seems pretty nice. You still get the awesome level 1 slow from gale, then sting. This seems like the most intuitive build. Maxing wards, sting, and then gale. This probably frees up a little mid game mana for the ult if you will not be using gale for damage at all. I was thinking and I still like arcanes on veno more than tranquils, especially if you are going to mek because you will need some more mana and you will have a healing source already. Also the new tranquil mechanics don't work well with heavy harassment, but if you are going to be roaming it doesn't matter. Maybe tranquils would be fit a bit better if you were going to play position 5 and not get a mek, or if you were doing position 4 and going for a different item, although I am too much of a newb to suggest anything.
Throwing down plague wards won't break the tranquils will it?
On October 26 2013 14:13 Entertaining wrote: Skill build is gale, sting, sting, max wards. ulti when u have arcanes. Maybe 2 points in gale and 1 in sting if u want more gank.
Agree with this.
Except I put sting on level 1 to harass. I build tranquils on him, since you're not going to attack all that much (use wards to push lane).
My Item build is:
tango, 3x gg branch, courier/wards. Then Magic wand, then tranquils. Then I'm favoring urn, as it gives you a little bit of HP and mana regen, and a very nice utility item overall. After that I don't know. I built Skadi a couple of times and though it was good. But I guess some positioning item should could be better, like force or blink. Need to test more.
Just overviewing some things (set it to 6.79 patch). Basically mekansm is now far less popular, it's only been bought twice and it's gotten extremely late (~30 minutes). Force staff is the most popular pick up (at 4/24 games), but the most common theme really is that venomancers aren't even getting enough gold to get a major item. Urn seems the most commonly acquired nonstarting item. Arcanes followed by tranquils are boots of choice. Most common skill build is still Gale level 1, Sting level 2, max wards. However, there is some more variation with some players splitting between sting + wards.
It's still too early to really make a judgement on the correct build, especially given Venomancer's sub 40% winrate in 6.79 competitively. I'm wondering if we might see venomancer being played as a solo hero more often now, similar to TI1 era
edit - on sting/gale level 1 it's probably best to actually just save the skill point, but in situations aside from harassing gale is always the better level 1 skill. Also occasionally a level 1 ward vs silencer who wants to spam curse.
Just overviewing some things (set it to 6.79 patch). Basically mekansm is now far less popular, it's only been bought twice and it's gotten extremely late (~30 minutes). Force staff is the most popular pick up (at 4/24 games), but the most common theme really is that venomancers aren't even getting enough gold to get a major item. Urn seems the most commonly acquired nonstarting item. Arcanes followed by tranquils are boots of choice. Most common skill build is still Gale level 1, Sting level 2, max wards. However, there is some more variation with some players splitting between sting + wards.
It's still too early to really make a judgement on the correct build, especially given Venomancer's sub 40% winrate in 6.79 competitively. I'm wondering if we might see venomancer being played as a solo hero more often now, similar to TI1 era
edit - on sting/gale level 1 it's probably best to actually just save the skill point, but in situations aside from harassing gale is always the better level 1 skill. Also occasionally a level 1 ward vs silencer who wants to spam curse.
I'm really favoring tranquils over arcanes. You don't need much mana, really. Wards are only 20 mana a pice, and gale is not to be spammed.
A force staff and urn seem to be the best items. After that Veno needs survivability, and I'm not sure what is good for it. You have decent armor, being an agi hero, but you have way too little life. Maybe an Aghs? It is useful and gives you a bit of survival.
About new tranquils and veno now: The "tranquils are broken"-cooldown will reset as long there is anybody still under affect of the poisons? Or how else does it work? Cause this would make tranquils a lot less effective on him imho.
On October 28 2013 07:33 Mafe wrote: About new tranquils and veno now: The "tranquils are broken"-cooldown will reset as long there is anybody still under affect of the poisons? Or how else does it work? Cause this would make tranquils a lot less effective on him imho.
They only break on auto attack damage either given or received. (They may be broken by receiving damage, not 100% sure but most) I've tried out venomancer with tranquils, definitely effective but makes it harder to scale late game.
I'm surprised that Venomancer has less money than he used too, considering the buff to passive income. I think these statistics aren't enough to make any significant conclusions. Mek seems intuitively the best way you could support your team for cheap, although an urn is cheaper.
Im no pro or any good, but i played with veno alot lately because he's broken in pubs The question is not what to skill or what to buy, but what he basically is. He is so allround and during a game, i believe his role shifts from a pusher to teamfight support/splitpusher thx to his awesome ultimate and skills. But his allroundness or lack of a true purpose, could be why he is not very succesfull in the proscene/teamgames yet.
I favor PT's above tranquils or manaboots, because venomancer is squizy early on and when needed u take int or agi. Pt's solve those costeffective when not playing as a full support (=tranquils). But i dont believe veno is a good full support hero but more like a early pusher, so PT's for me! Ive tried rushing a meka / pipe /drum (support) or yasha (semi carry) and skippin the ring of aquila multiple times, but this also weakens veno so much in early game (in pubs). Shadowblade is nice but for some reason i dont get enough kills yet to justify 3000 gold for a shadowblade.
early = 3000 gold = Early game : Wand, PT, Ring of aguila = Pushing/survivability items mid = 6200 gold = Mid game : Septer, blinkdagger = Utilizing most of his ultimate late = 2500 gold = TP boots = Splitpushing ------------ + 10700 gold
10.000 gold does sound like alot of with the new patch its pretty doable. After this i get what needed if the game still goes on. Im not teamgame minded and more pubminded, but until now this worked pretty allright. Ive combined it with buying wards+donkeys all game long, works out great. The ingame guide aint bad for venomancer in pubs and is doable for everybody. Everygame u will have +25 assists and maybe more kills then death. But the number of assists is astuounishing. I think we should make a new role in dota, assistking
On October 28 2013 07:33 Mafe wrote: About new tranquils and veno now: The "tranquils are broken"-cooldown will reset as long there is anybody still under affect of the poisons? Or how else does it work? Cause this would make tranquils a lot less effective on him imho.
They only break on auto attack damage either given or received. (They may be broken by receiving damage, not 100% sure but most) I've tried out venomancer with tranquils, definitely effective but makes it harder to scale late game.
They break on auto attack damage. For example, if you auto attack and miss because of high ground, they won't break. Using skills or ongoing damage does nothing to it.
For receiving damage, it is broader, most damages break it, but it is still exceptionally good. I can get kills in ganks while keeping my tranquils active.
Veno is VERY good now. I will post a match ID I played yesterday were, up to 25 min, I think I played him very well. Damn near perfect for my skill level (high match making). After that the game was so won that I got sloppy.
So xiao8 seems to be having the most success with venomancer right now, playing him as a mid hero (usually with a roaming support). Venomancer seems to need the solo xp to be able to rapidly get max points in wards out. CTY tried it and failed, I wonder if other teams will pick this up though.
I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
On October 28 2013 21:17 Nevuk wrote: So xiao8 seems to be having the most success with venomancer right now, playing him as a mid hero (usually with a roaming support). Venomancer seems to need the solo xp to be able to rapidly get max points in wards out. CTY tried it and failed, I wonder if other teams will pick this up though.
He played him as duo off-lane support yesterday in D2L, not mid.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd.
I allways thought poison sting was stackable, but now im in doubt but wiki doesnt say its not stackable! If its stackable, he gains alot from early extra attackspeed as a agihero it helps later. I wonder....
I'm without my gaming comp for a few months but I look forward to playing Veno some more. He's by far my favorite hero in the game. I suppose the general issue is whether he should be played 4/5 position, as he used to, or moving towards mid will change his quick levels for pushing.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Everything depends on your playstyle obviously. You get treads on Crystal Maiden too if your playstyle is to auto-attack stuff to death. My point is that people saying get Treads for survivability doesn't make sense since Tranquils gives you more survivability (the +4 armor is maintained even in combat), movespeed (even while in combat), and at a much cheaper cost than Treads. Treads are usually gotten by heroes who scale with atk spd in some way, but Veno has nothing that scales with atk spd.
I allways thought poison sting was stackable, but now im in doubt but wiki doesnt say its not stackable! If its stackable, he gains alot from early extra attackspeed as a agihero it helps later. I wonder....
It doesn't. I think Illusions make it appear that their Poison Sting stacks with your own, but it doesn't actually slow or do any damage (it's just in place to make Illusions more believable to the enemy). Atk spd scales w/ Poison Sting if you switch to a new target every attack, but that is an incredibly unrealistic scenario outside of vs creeps, so I suppose you can make the arguement to get Treads if your role in the team is to push lanes as fast as possible.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
you don't think arcanes is necessary for the mana pool/regen to ult?
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward).
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
On October 29 2013 06:56 Logo wrote: I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward).
wards never replace your own sting, they will keep going after your own subsides.
If you had 9s of your sting, then it will be 9s 20damage and 3s 10 damage.
On another note, what kind of damage is the damage from sting? Is it pure? I see the purple damage markers going of mud golems and BKB'ed people...
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
1. Oh boy, ur alot of a better player then i am with venomancer. That force staff play is really nice! I enjoyed the replay, learned something 2. Septer, but if u dont want a septer, I would say bloodstone, necromicom or rod of atos. U dont need much more mana+manaregen, just a little bit more so maybe bloodstone is overdoing it, but bloodstone is better then HoT (thx to the teamheal future when u die).
On October 29 2013 06:56 Logo wrote: I know sting is 'not stackable' but how does it apply across the wards & Veno? For example if I hit a target with veno lvl 4 poison sting then 3s later a ward hits the same target is the veno's poison sting duration refreshed or does it apply a different buff placer? Basically would I get 12 additional seconds of 20dmg/sec or would it be 9s of 20dmg/sec and 3s of 10dmg/sec (the 50% damage from ward).
wards never replace your own sting, they will keep going after your own subsides.
If you had 9s of your sting, then it will be 9s 20damage and 3s 10 damage.
On another note, what kind of damage is the damage from sting? Is it pure? I see the purple damage markers going of mud golems and BKB'ed people...
Sting is magical but pierces bkb. So it does 0 damage but still slows and if the unit loses magic immunity they will begin to take damage (important vs BKB'd targets, naix, juggernaut). Gale has the same property, and I think even nova as well (if the unit becomes magic immune after being affected). Now that sting doesn't remove regen it's not as important what damage type it is though.
On October 29 2013 10:11 Entertaining wrote: how can you even play veno without arcanes. dont answer that actually, you cant.
I wouldn't say that it's impossible, but I do find it hard to believe that you can have enough mana without arcanes to use your ulti in combination with your other skills when you need to.
I am not a high level player but so far I like: arcanes, mek, force staff, in that order. I also like getting sting as my first ability so i can start lane harass very early, as I feel like that is the strongest part of venomancer. I then get a point in gale to slow if needed, then max ward. I am unsure of when i like to get ulti and I think it depends on team compositions and game state. I guess I just like the force staff because of the added survivability but mostly it is nice because it is a cheap way to contribute. Arcanes seem like a must if you wanna push and mek and use spells in team fight. If you are gonna just roam all day then I guess tranquils would work. I think power treads are very bad on veno since you shouldn't be in the position of taking damage if you and your team play it right.
The new patch buffed the higher level of sting and gale, but it seems like sting is better to get first because of the new synergy with plague wards. In all the battles i am in I just focus on casting my spells and then making sure everyone gets a poison sting, refreshing it on people who are close but not the most recent sting.
I wish I had time to try a bunch of different item builds but I don't have a ton of time so my opinion is very narrow, also I play at a non-high level in pubs so there is much inconsistency.
FYI : Saw this game lgd vs lgd just now on D2L. The progame venomancer went for the following items during the game : Wand, arcane boots, medaillon of courage, wards, urn. smoke, pointbooster, gem (dunno if he picked it up or bought it himself) septer, forcestaff.
Edit : Furthermore, i have tried different boots and items after the wand stated in the discussion. Tranqiuls are not as great for me as i hoped, Arcane boots are a definite yes for me. Much better then PT or TQ boots.
Forcestaff is nice 3nd pickup. After that i transitioned into bloodstone which worked out great because of the low threshold items u need for it and u can alternate the purchase order to what u need. Eventually near the end of the game i got tp-boots and last the septer. Works great for me. But i do have to add that u cant engage against the enemy like a standard agihero, u are a support with arcane boots into bloodstone and should play like such. So, it takes myself some time to get used too but i believe i can get better at dota2 faster with forcestaff and arcaneboots build, so thx peeps, u guys learned me sometings
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful.
Eul's active is always going to be useful no matter what stage of the game. If you're talking about Atos well I don't like Atos on Veno. Veno already has slows galore and you can get the raw stats from other items. I like Aghs on Veno, it makes it so your ulti is up every teamfight. Yeah if you get to the super late game it might feel lackluster but Veno is going to scale poorly into the late game no matter how you build him.
On October 29 2013 02:53 Skyro wrote: I don't understand why Treads are popular on Veno. It can't be for survivability since the new Tranquils are better for that with its high armor and movespeed. There's really nothing on Veno that scales with atk spd at all either.
The problem is the 13 second cooldown and the 10hp/sec change i guess (or i dislike the new tranquils). A character is likely to be in combat every 13 seconds, next to the fact that u need to heal up afterwards. Thats alot of time wasted doing nothing after a big engagement. Ive seen peeps wait 30 seconds alongside a tower in a pubgame, what a waste. I like tranqiuls on passive characters, but i dont play venomancer that passive (the wards arent that good). But i guess its all up to your playstyle.
Watch the game ID 361731292. It is not that high of a level of play, but there are some masterful plays there, I guarantee you.
In this game I played somewhat poorly very early, then played very well once I got a few itens, namely, tranquils + urn + force staff. With this trio I can kill everyone and kite everyone (almost).
The thing is, even broken tranquils are good, because of the movespeed. But even in battle I have had several battles with my tranquils up and running, you don't auto-attack that much. Most of the time you're kitting and placing wards. And using force staff, and using urn, and using gale, and using your ulti. Veno now plays differently.
I try to auto attack enemies when I know I'm not in danger, so if I break my tranquils it is not a big deal. Or if I really need a bit more damage. But 13s is not a big deal either.
I LOVE this new tranquils on this new venon. I think he may even be overpowered. Watch that game and you might agree, even though it is not high level play.
To be honest, u went 4-1 before tranquils. Which is really nice ofcourse but it does not give as good of a representation if thosetranqiuls boots are better then PT's or Phaseboots in that gameflow. Ofcourse i see u healing after a battle, and fast. But i am pretty convinced u played really well early that defined the rest of the game. A 4-1 support at 5 minutes goin into lue and yellow wards+urn +tranqiuls is a luxury. I believe i cant use that game as reference because u and ur team had a to good of a start before u had tranqiul boots
U play a great game and then u still get flamed, haha
Yeah, said getting flamed, but whatever. That game was GORGEOUS up until I started Yoloing, and that was after some 40 kills/assists. When I and the Pudge went ganking... the beauty of it, I saved pudge's ass so many times with force staff, urn, gales and stuff.
And this is why I think Tranquils + Force Staff are core for veno, and bare minimum.
With those you can kite all but Lycan and Dark Seer. Even WR, Naix, Jugger can't keep up too long because you have a better ms boots and you throw down wards as you go and they will slow then down. And on top of that only WR would ever have a force staff.
Note about tranquils, you can push lanes with then active. I don't push lanes with auto attacks anymore, just using wards and gale when I have abundance of mana.
And I am having trouble deciding what to build after Tranquils, urn and force. I need more mana and/or mana regen. I need more HP. What gives me both that is farmable by a support?
Oh, and when I get home I can provide games with almost equal builds that had a much worse start, so you can better judge how well this strat works.
I go either Ags or Eul's after my core items on Veno. Aghs has a good buildup of raw stats if that's what's needed, whereas Eul's provides movespeed, mana regen, and an incredible active that synergizes with Veno's playstyle, all at an affordable price for supports later in the game.
I'm currently going aghs, but I don't like it. It doesn't add much for the price. Even after level 16 when it diminishes your ulti's cooldown... Eul's and Atos.... when you build it you're way past the stage where you need more kiting ability, making the actives a lot less useful.
Eul's active is always going to be useful no matter what stage of the game. If you're talking about Atos well I don't like Atos on Veno. Veno already has slows galore and you can get the raw stats from other items. I like Aghs on Veno, it makes it so your ulti is up every teamfight. Yeah if you get to the super late game it might feel lackluster but Veno is going to scale poorly into the late game no matter how you build him.
It seems to me that veno's ulti is not too useful. By the time the damage ticks the teamfight is finished and either you won and everybody is dead or you lost and it doesn't matter because it won't kill anyone either. Maybe this coupled with a Buyback from a Zeus to clean up house.
Eul's doesn't seem much more useful either. It usually just means that you die a few seconds later instead of instantly after ulting. The current veno, for me, is much more about positioning, slowing and dishing smaller instances of damage than jumping in the middle of the fight and ulting. Your ulti is just situationally useful.
Later, if I have time, I will try to write a small guide based on my experiences with him, what I like best and what I don't think is worth it and why. It may not be the most insightful and best advices, but it may contain a couple good points.
Nobody is suggesting you run into the middle of a team fight to ulti. There is no need to, the radius on Veno's ulti is quite large. And a large reason why Aghs is nice on Veno is not only because of the ulti upgrade but also for the raw stats. I would spend the premium for Aghs over Atos all day every day on Veno.
And you are overgeneralizing. If for some reason both teams are made up of super squishy heroes where team fights end in like 2 secs then obviously you picked the wrong hero. Very broadly speaking you're going to be picking Veno vs tanky meeles where you know your DoTs and snares are going to be effective.
I don't know what to say about Eul's other than you are vastly underrating the item.
I understand the worth of a forcestaff but i dont know what for worth a euls has for a support. Ok, i can get someone 2.5sec out of a fight, fine. And then he still is there. Only thing i can think of is chasing an enemy to let someone gank him, but thats about it. Apart drom stats, its 2700 gold so its pretty expensive. What am i missing thats so special about an euls for a suppor or in particular venomancer ? thx.
It has a large amount of movement spd, which helps a lot with roaming, kiting, positioning, etc. Nice for Veno.
Has a little bit of int and mana regen, again nice for agi caster heroes like Veno.
It's active can be used offensively for the disable, to chase and position. It can also be used defensively on yourself. Also it can dispel a lot of debuffs on you when used on yourself. I imagine you can find many situations where you would find that helpful.
Is it core? No. But say you're looking for a defensive item vs Bloodseeker for example, I'd go Eul's over Force Staff. At the end of the day Eul's is a nice, relatively inexpensive luxury utility item for a support Veno for sure.
Eul's is more attractive than it was before, particularly on Venomancer, assuming you are making use of the new Tranquil Boots. With Venomancer, you can make it so that using your skills doesn't break the Tranquil Boots - so on this hero they are particularly attractive.
The movespeed of Tranquil Boots is ridiculous and the added movespeed of Eul's makes you virtually perma-hasted when compared with other movespeeds in the game.
Venomancer is that rare support hero without access to a disable. He can't cancel TP's, he can't set up a delayed stun, he can't save allies from enemy spells. Eul's gives him those capabilities, even if it's not as desirable as a direct stun. Importantly, Eul's gives something that Venomancer can do against initiators like Batrider and Clockwerk and other heroes who like to jump in but are not so hurt by Force Staff.
Veno needs an item that improves his mana situation. Eul's is one item that definitely qualifies, along with Force Staff. On the current patch, Force Staff + Tranquil Boots results in some money "wasted" on regen, making it a bit less desirable than it would otherwise be. Force Staff is still an amazing item, though.
Disappearing someone from a fight for 2.5 secs is more useful than you are giving it credit for. All those Shadow Demon bans aren't targeted at his ultimate.
On veno, I like getting 1 point in gale (the slow lasts 15s and doesn't scale with level, 1 point in venom, and then max wards. The veno wards let you casually jungle when you are not babysitting your carry, and then you can get midas and ags for a huge damage advantage.
This only works if your lane isn't too pressured, but when it does work, it is amazing. I went 17-2 with veno yesterday because my ult annihilated the enemy team every fight.
If you are mid veno, maxing gale is best because it does 450 damage total at max level. If you are massively outlevelling your opponents, you take down their health very fast.
I made an fpvod of myself playing venomancer. Quality of the video is sorta poor, sound is out of sync but the sound is somewhat irrelevant (I really need to configure OBS better). Was solo queued in the very high bracket. The lanes definitely reflect this (where else do you see the infamous invoker bloodseeker lane). My play wasn't perfect but it was adequate. I do basically the build I do for 6.77, some minor changes. (It's level 1 gale, level 2 sting, max wards build, arcane boots + mek.as position 5).
I'll commentate it tomorrow, playing it made me remember some things like how Venomancer is actually a huge pain for pudge (wards make his life hell and he's an easy early gank). I've only slept 6 hours in the past 3 days so I'm going to go to sleep now though.
Venomancer played in a support position is in my opinion, better off getting utility items rather than an aghanim's. Agh's is a good first item or early acquisition, but later on it's effectiveness drops off heavily (I think veil is honestly probably a better choice after level 16, flat damage output-wise). Sheepstick really outclasses almost all other support items lategame due to being a hard disable (which venomancer lacks), Eul's is like a miniature version of this - let's you cancel people who just tp out after you drop gale + nova on them. They're better options than softer disables like orchid, atos.
It seems pretty situational. The level 2 gale is nice because it can prevent a lot of shenanigans like Blink Dagger, Tranq boots, bottle or urn plays so you'd probably want to get it early-ish if stuff like that seems relevant.
Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in.
On November 05 2013 03:32 Logo wrote: It seems pretty situational. The level 2 gale is nice because it can prevent a lot of shenanigans like Blink Dagger, Tranq boots, bottle or urn plays so you'd probably want to get it early-ish if stuff like that seems relevant.
Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in.
Well Gale ticks every 3s, so you can still Bottle b/w Gale ticks. Things like Blink Dag, Urn, TA's Refraction can be canceled with Poison Sting (lv2 Sting for Refraction), so again kind of moot (I don't think Gale or Poison Sting cancels Tranquil Boots but I'm not 100% positive on this one). You lv up Gale if you want the damage, it's really that simple. An added 175 damage per lv past lv1 is no joke.
Clearly lvling up Wards is the way to go in most scenarios, regardless if you drop a point or two in Gale along the way.
In regards to boot choice, I play mostly supports and I've pretty much fallen in love w/ the new Tranquils on supports. It's so cheap and the hp regen and MS really help roaming around. The 4 armor is also very nice and adds some much needed survivability. I guess I just feel Veno's mana issues is better taken care of with other items (I love Eul's on Veno) if you're going to be roaming around the map. Although if you are your team's Mek carrier, Arcane is still a great option if your team specifically needs it to hit/sustain an aggressive push timing.
On November 05 2013 03:32 Logo wrote: It seems pretty situational. The level 2 gale is nice because it can prevent a lot of shenanigans like Blink Dagger, Tranq boots, bottle or urn plays so you'd probably want to get it early-ish if stuff like that seems relevant.
Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in.
Well Gale ticks every 3s, so you can still Bottle b/w Gale ticks. Things like Blink Dag, Urn, TA's Refraction can be canceled with Poison Sting (lv2 Sting for Refraction), so again kind of moot (I don't think Gale or Poison Sting cancels Tranquil Boots but I'm not 100% positive on this one). You lv up Gale if you want the damage, it's really that simple. An added 175 damage per lv past lv1 is no joke.
Clearly lvling up Wards is the way to go in most scenarios, regardless if you drop a point or two in Gale along the way.
Part of the changelog is:
- Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger
I agree about bottle, but it does restrict its usage a bit (you have to bottle after the tick). I don't know if that above change applies to refraction, but that's also why I didn't mention refraction.
On top of that gale is 800 range and AoE which is nice. Often wards will be good for canceling when placed well, but it's not as long lasting of a suppression.
Though I agree the damage is awesome if that's what you need/want, but usually wards are the way to go.
For boots I'd just read in how quickly I can transition to other items. Getting stuck with tranquil's and no mana item as veno kind of blows because you really want to take advantage of Veno's sustained pressure through wards and he contributes a lot more to fights if he can spam wards while using gale and ult. However, if you can get those 2nd+ items and take care of the mana in a reasonable amount of time the tranquils are awesome for all sorts of reasons. I think you just need to read the game and pick one of the two based on what you think you can get away with.
On November 05 2013 03:32 Logo wrote: It seems pretty situational. The level 2 gale is nice because it can prevent a lot of shenanigans like Blink Dagger, Tranq boots, bottle or urn plays so you'd probably want to get it early-ish if stuff like that seems relevant.
Also in pubs the wards are amazing at stalling the game so keep that in mind. A lot of pub teams will lack high ground assault heroes and without them assaulting the high ground vs a max ward veno is incredibly difficult. I had a game the other day where the wards help stall out the team for a good 20 minutes (granted we also had Doom and Undying to add to the pain of going for high ground) until our carry finally got their stuff going. If nothing else in a high ground assault the wards will often deny the enemy team initiation because your team can sit back from the tower while the wards tag anyone capable of blinking in.
Well Gale ticks every 3s, so you can still Bottle b/w Gale ticks. Things like Blink Dag, Urn, TA's Refraction can be canceled with Poison Sting (lv2 Sting for Refraction), so again kind of moot (I don't think Gale or Poison Sting cancels Tranquil Boots but I'm not 100% positive on this one). You lv up Gale if you want the damage, it's really that simple. An added 175 damage per lv past lv1 is no joke.
Clearly lvling up Wards is the way to go in most scenarios, regardless if you drop a point or two in Gale along the way.
- Poison Sting dps no longer dispels healing or disables dagger
I agree about bottle, but it does restrict its usage a bit (you have to bottle after the tick). I don't know if that above change applies to refraction, but that's also why I didn't mention refraction.
On top of that gale is 800 range and AoE which is nice. Often wards will be good for canceling when placed well, but it's not as long lasting of a suppression.
Though I agree the damage is awesome if that's what you need/want, but usually wards are the way to go.
Ah I see. Still though, I really don't think you are ever going to run across a scenario where you feel you need to toss an extra pt into Gale simply to cancel Blink Dagger. Generally people either use Blink Dagger to initiate, or to escape before you get into range of them, so in neither scenario do you need Gale to cancel Blink. Even in cases where you're running away from a Blink Dagger user, you're going to be dropping Wards to slow them down anyway.
And in regards to the "2nd item" after Tranquils, the fact that Tranquils is cheaper lets you get that 2nd item faster. I really like going Tranquils into Sage Mask/Void Stone to build into an Eul's, so you get the HP/MP sustain very early which helps your map presence. The caveat here is if you are your team's Mek carrier, which is typically an item that needs to be rushed to hit a coordinated team timing push. In that case Arcane Boots makes a lot of sense.
Yeah it's certainly not always going to happen, or happen that often, but I have noticed myself feeling like I want that 2nd point in games now and then. I don't know if it necessarily meant I should have gone that extra point, but there are times in fights where someone will back out or disengage and I'll wish that my gale had been ticking on them at all to keep them away longer or prevent them from doing things like bottling back up. Or even just landing a stun or silence to buy them the 3 seconds they need. As veno it's not like you can follow someone through their allies to keep up a chase (or drop wards to prevent them from healing or whatever).
I don't know that wards work as well to keep blink down though if you're chasing given the wards have a 5s cooldown and can be juked. Either way I generally agree. I don't think it's a common situation at all, but I can see doing it occasionally. Probably just in place of the 4th ward point at 7/8 (and grab lvl 4 ward at 8/9) or in exchange for a level 8 ult (which would only be in a situation where you lack mana) or something like that.
And in regards to the "2nd item" after Tranquils, the fact that Tranquils is cheaper lets you get that 2nd item faster. I really like going Tranquils into Sage Mask/Void Stone to build into an Eul's, so you get the HP/MP sustain very early which helps your map presence. The caveat here is if you are your team's Mek carrier, which is typically an item that needs to be rushed to hit a coordinated team timing push. In that case Arcane Boots makes a lot of sense
Of course, but there's more to it than just that extra gold. Whether or not you're sole support (common in pubs), or being pressured will make a big difference in what you can afford and when.
Also having just the sage mask/void stone doesn't necessarily solve the problem of not having enough mana to gale + ward + ult in a teamfight since that's a mana pool issue and not a mana regen issue.
That's a lot of words to say you generally agree. IMO, the decision to grab a 2nd lv of Gale is typically made at lv 3 or 4, where you think you need that extra damage for a gank. All the situational stuff you're saying here is not only unlikely but also very likely outweighed by the benefits of lvling up Wards faster.
And yes you're just repeating what I said here. Sometimes Veno players don't even get their ult right away because it is really a team fight ult, and if you're not going to be team fighting soon you don't need to get it right away. It's not a very good ganking ult. You could also pick up the Staff of Wizardry along the way to Eul's as well if you need the mana pool to ult. The buildup to Eul's is very good/flexible, i.e. can't afford Void Stone but need the mana regen in lane right now? Buy Sage Mask from the side shop.
And if you are going to be in team fights early, e.g. aggressively pushing towers to push an early advantage, then yes in that scenario it does make sense (especially if you're going to be your team's Mek carrier), but I already stated that above.
I haven't tried both but some data: Pre armor concerns (which is going to play a big role because one is physical and one magical): Sting 2 -> 3 is a 90dmg increase. Sting 3 -> 4 is a 120 dmg increase.
Ward 2 -> 3 is 11dmg max increase meaning roughly 8-9 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage Ward 3 -> 4 is also a 11 max damage increase meaning roughly 11 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage.
To deal 210dmg increase with wards you'd need to hit 9-10 times with the wards to make the damage up.
So at the level where you can be 1/4/2 or 1/2/4 you're looking at needing 10 ward hits in a fight/gank to equal the damage from the sting. If you're sitting around 3+ wards that doesn't seem hard. If you're ganking with 1 wards on your target at a time it's a lot.
A possible reason for sting>ward working better than ward>sting may be the bounty on wards. Wards 1 Sting Max still gives you a lot of the power of wards, but it keeps the bounty low early game. 35/ward is a pretty steep thing to give up. 6.78 ward > sting being the best win % lends credibility to that being the reason.
I think that since the patch, every now and then, veno is played as a solomid, which is ofc very different from his usual support role. Maybe this explains something here, as this analysis doesnt make any difference about it.
Since the patch tranquils are quite a good item on veno, and maxing wards after 2 points in sting seems the best.
I am stomping almost every game now at my level.
1/2/2/1 into 1/2/4/1 into 1/4/4/2. Tranquil into mek into force into agh into euls or anything really.
here are a couple of match ID's. level of play is not the greatest but it works very well.
406815145 - Axe + veno cute combo play, very informative. 406803649 - Axe + veno again. this combo is effective, I don't know how to stop it, but there should be a very simple way to stop it without giving up other lane. 407880799 - An example on where to change your build. I skilled level 2 gale just to kill an invis TA. And it is usually worth it.
Sting just seems so potent in lanes where I can actually land hits on enemies. If you just focus getting as much uptime with it as possible, it's incredibly annoying to lane against, and wins the lane really easily. The only time the damage from Gale seems that useful early would be as some kind of ganking venomancer - perhaps a mid - who for some reason needed burst. When I gank as a venomancer, just the slow from gale + sting seems to be enough without really needing the extra dot from gale.
I love maxing out the sting as a support veno and just harassing the bejeezus out of them. You just don't get to use Gale as much with the mana issues.
Edit: Yes, Gale does a ton of damage. But you can only use it so often. Sting does 30/90/180/300 damage - and is automatically applied with just an auto attack. Gale does 25/200/375/550, can only be used 2-3 times per mana pool. Yes, Gale does twice the damage - but when you are staying in a lane, the constant application of sting seems to win out. And the gale slow doesn't scale.
On December 03 2013 19:59 Laserist wrote: Why build tranquils on a hero benefits attacking that much? Any other boots are simply better.
Btw he is just a pain in the a.. to deal in lanes if you have no disables or early kill potential.
Because early when you're harassing you don't have a tranquils yet.
Later you can always last hit/harass with wards. And you, as a support veno, won't be last hitting much really. And as Veno you can push towers, defend towers, pursue and escape/juke without ever having to right click. I usually only right click when I really need the extra damage NOW, when I'm full HP or when I'm confident I won't need the regen.
Like, I right click to get a kill, because I won't need regen if no one is near me to kill me. I can wait 13s after a kill to heal me up.
If I have to push a tower or defend a tower right after a fight and I'm low HP I won't right click unless extremely needed (to kill someone or to save a teammate). Wards are there for you.
Wards are great with tranquils, they are perfect for veno. Even if you plan on selling the tranquils later on, in the first 15 to 20 minutes there simply isn't anything better for a support veno.
On the other hand, if you're going a ganking/semi-carry veno, and you're focusing on sting/gale, then you probably want arcanes or treads or even phase.
Else tranquils are great.
If you care to watch a couple of replays, you will see how they can be effective. I myself have posted a handful on this thread.
I've been going max sting lately on veno and it feels pretty nice if you're going from a position where you're getting good xp and/or are ahead. Having the early max sting hits really hard and makes for quite a powerful ganking ability. Plus I like eeking out the extra bit of slow for chasing/running. By the time you really start pushing hard you've gotten wards going too.
But if you're behind I don't know. If the enemy team is already unafraid to dive in the level 1 wards don't do much to prevent that like level 4 wards do. They die so fast at level 1 and really don't deal enough base damage for them to be a threat.
I think regardless of what you max first you want 2 levels in BOTH wards and sting. So 1/2/1 -> 1/2/2 -> 1/4/2 with ult when you feel its appropriate (I delay it if I don't think I'll be teamfighting or won't have mana to cast it and the enemy team isn't going to melt under it). Level 2 wards are really nice to have because it'll take 2+ hits for a hero to drop them making them something that can less casually be destroyed (especially for supports with low base damage/slow attack speed). Level 1 wards can end up being a bit of free bounty because they just die so fast and they seem much worse for pushing because creeps and towers will railroad them quickly.
Tranquil boots are nice because they're cheap, they let you just always be around as veno which is pretty huge for making big ward traps and applying lots of pressure, they give you good movement speed which is great for chasing/fleeing* and the armor is always nice to have. I don't know if I'd go tranquil -> mek because that seems like it'd strain my mana as venom, but if you're going into another support item like force staff or necro book tranquils works pretty well.
*Even broken it's good movement speed at a fraction of the cost of phase boots.
On November 19 2013 06:49 Logo wrote: I haven't tried both but some data: Pre armor concerns (which is going to play a big role because one is physical and one magical): Sting 2 -> 3 is a 90dmg increase. Sting 3 -> 4 is a 120 dmg increase.
Ward 2 -> 3 is 11dmg max increase meaning roughly 8-9 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage Ward 3 -> 4 is also a 11 max damage increase meaning roughly 11 ward hits to equal the extra sting damage.
To deal 210dmg increase with wards you'd need to hit 9-10 times with the wards to make the damage up.
So at the level where you can be 1/4/2 or 1/2/4 you're looking at needing 10 ward hits in a fight/gank to equal the damage from the sting. If you're sitting around 3+ wards that doesn't seem hard. If you're ganking with 1 wards on your target at a time it's a lot.
A possible reason for sting>ward working better than ward>sting may be the bounty on wards. Wards 1 Sting Max still gives you a lot of the power of wards, but it keeps the bounty low early game. 35/ward is a pretty steep thing to give up. 6.78 ward > sting being the best win % lends credibility to that being the reason.
First of all Wards do piercing damage, which does 50% damage to heroes and 150% to creeps. Sting is just magical damage. What this basically means is lvling Wards will let you push and jungle faster. Sting would obviously be better for hero harassment in lane.
I find Veno's skill build quite flexible, and I often leave skill points unused until I need it. I think a good rule of thumb is to max first Sting eventually (don't have to rush it), get Wards to at least lv 2 so they aren't free bounties, then lvl up Gale or Wards depending on the situation (Gale for ganking, Wards for jungling or pushing/defending towers).
yeah I didn't make it clear I only wanted to look at vs hero in a rather rough way. I figured the comparison would be generous to wards against heroes, but given that the comparison ended up favoring sting anyways in most general aggressive fight situations the data just sort of confirms what was already pretty intuitive. So I figured ignoring the damage types didn't really change much.
I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote: I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
After reading this thread, I decided to try Veno in AP for fun. I literally had never played him before. I'm 9-0 with him in the last couple days, and I find him very fun to play. Being able to push/defend with wards, helping to gank, having decent jungling ability, and having a ridiculously baller ult makes this guy a blast. Getting force/euls coupled with Q makes you damn near unkillable at my miserable skill level. I also really enjoy force staffing into 4-5 enemies, ulting, and then flying into the air while my teammates finish them off. I've regularly had games where I end up 7/2/24 or so.
On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote: I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote: I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting.
Well the point was stacked neutrals. Wards won't clear triple stacks all that fast in my experience (being single target and all), though it's generally a reasonable way to get some jungling in.
u have to micro ur hero and wards to hit every single creep and refresh sting on them to clear stacked camps fast enough. at the current stage of the game ur either leaving gale at 1 and maxing others or ur maxing gale.
i personally would prefer maxing touch/wards (if im supporting) to push the lanes unless they have amazing antipush.
Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks.
On December 10 2013 04:32 Skyro wrote: Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks.
good supports take reasonable farm for themselves, nothing is more useless than a support with no items at 30mins.
Also not all carries can clear triple stacks early or easily.
Personally I've also taken to sting/wards, but you know when a good player like Bulba starts musing on something like max gale saying it's a good way to go I tend to at least give it some credit.
On December 10 2013 04:32 Skyro wrote: Ok... but then why in the world would you be clearing triple stacks as Veno? Give it to your carry. And you really shouldn't be jungling much as Veno anyway outside of the laning phase. Really I don't see many reasons to lv gale past 1 early on unless for some reason you really need the extra damage for early ganks.
good supports take reasonable farm for themselves, nothing is more useless than a support with no items at 30mins.
And what does that have to do with clearing triple stacks? I already said that you're going to be more efficient jungling with wards than gale in any practical scenario. Early gale has its merits, but jungling isn't one of them.
I was entertaining the idea of a W-Q-Q-E-Q-E-Q-.... build.
But I found that I was VERY effective for about half a second it took to hit Q and then was dead weight for 22s. It is good for ganking, but not very useful in teamfights, because it is too dependent on finding that 3 to 5 person gale in teamfights.
Maybe someone like Bulba can consciously rely on hitting money gale after money gale, but overall farm and XP progression of a (mostly) wardless, stingless veno is very slow. These two abilities are very good for farming and pushing
Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast.
On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote: I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting.
i disagree, atleast 2 points in gale and something like soul ring would be way less arduous than dealing with wards. unless you plan on blocking a camp spawn you have to place them far back and spend a lot of time kiting, seeing as how wards have a 5 second cool down. wards only do 50% of the damage your sting passive is listed at.
On December 09 2013 15:31 epok wrote: I read bulba posting about maxing Venomancers Q and I think he's on to something. His tick does massive damage and he can farm jungle stacks very easily with it, especially with a kinda fast soul ring depending on if he gets kills. It pays off best in my opinion to a) max gale and b) stack jungle for yourself.
Most creeps would need 2 level 4 gales to die, wouldn't they? It would take more than 22s to farm a single stack, I don't know if that is good enough.
Level 2 gale is 200 damage so I think 2 gales would take out or seriously injure most medium camp creeps. When you combine that with the fact that you can attack the slowed creeps as they chase you you can probably clear a medium camp pretty well. I doubt it's faster than the obvious XP winners like a solo lane, but the point is to find extra XP where you can while protecting your safe-lane. Certainly an interesting idea.
You can jungle much more efficiently lvling up wards + sting instead of gale + sting.
i disagree, atleast 2 points in gale and something like soul ring would be way less arduous than dealing with wards. unless you plan on blocking a camp spawn you have to place them far back and spend a lot of time kiting, seeing as how wards have a 5 second cool down. wards only do 50% of the damage your sting passive is listed at.
The trick is to maximize each "set" of wards, either by stacking a camp or certain areas where you can pull two camps into one set of wards. Also you should be attacking each individial creep once to get full sting damage on them. This is not difficult to do.
Also let's step back here a moment, shall we? It feels like there is too much theorycraft/hypotheticals going on here (like large creep stacks and such) and people are not really focusing on what is going to actually happen in a game, like when you are jungling as Veno, the purpose of jungling as Veno, etc.
I don't know what scenario you guys are jungling in as Veno, but primarily I jungle with Veno at the very start of a match. In this case you have no choice but to go wards first. Also, other than the obvious gold/xp advantages of jungling, another big reason you jungle as Veno is to set up early ganks, or at the very least present that threat (to both mid and safe lanes). Obviously if you are using Gale to actually jungle, the cooldown won't be up to use to actually gank if the opportunity presents itself. Also mana is a huge issue for Veno early on and using Gales just to jungle is not efficient.
Even later on in the game when Gale is maxed I STILL wouldn't using Gale to jungle because you never know when a fight will break out, when a TP into counterattack is going to take place, etc. The cooldown and mana cost on Gale is simply too high to be used efficiently for jungling purposes in any practical scenario.
On December 10 2013 14:24 Myrddraal wrote: Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast.
Yep. I do too.
Against invis heroes, for example, I gift then a gale when they run away, and usually they are low life so they have a good chance of dying.
People usually don't appreciate it much, but there was a game when I skilled gale in the middle of a battle and killed an invis hero because of it. Quick thinking, quick fingers and good decision making and nobody ever notices...
On December 10 2013 14:24 Myrddraal wrote: Every now and again I take a second point in Gale before maxing Sting/Wards since the change where it does no tick damage at level one. I think it's a reasonable compromise because the jump in damage from 1->2 is pretty high and having one less level of wards early probably wont impact you too much unless you really needed to push fast.
Yep. I do too.
Against invis heroes, for example, I gift then a gale when they run away, and usually they are low life so they have a good chance of dying.
People usually don't appreciate it much, but there was a game when I skilled gale in the middle of a battle and killed an invis hero because of it. Quick thinking, quick fingers and good decision making and nobody ever notices...
Jungling with gale at early levels is problematic because it makes Veno incapable of ganking or counterganking. He needs gale to do that. If there's a plan to use gale to make it easier for your carry to do a massive stack then that's a different story, but still something that needs to be a lot more careful than just "jungle with gale".
Maxed poison sting + gale + 1 auto on an enemy is 575+300+auto damage which is still short of the hp of a hard camp. And if they have a satyr hellcaller in the camp then it can take forever. Really I only ever saw this in HoN where the ancients weren't magic immune, and it was in combination with wards. (Also the hon version of poison sting is/was insanely stronger).
Currently I favor 1-1-0 into 2-1-4-x builds. I've seen no-gale builds from some farming venomancers but it just seems... bad. The main usage I have for sting is the slow, which still scales poorly even if it is applied more easily.
Select All Other Units hotkey now also selects other units like Plague and Serpent Wards
Hooray! Buff! Finally this will work! It will make last hitting with wards SO much easier!
6.79c wrote: Plague Wards night vision reduced from 1200 to 800 Venomancer base movement speed reduced from 290 to 285
NOOOO!!! Nerfs!!!!
These are not huge, but pretty significant. Now tranquils, IMO, will be more important than ever. And Plague wards will not be a poor man's substitute for normal wards. Not at night, at least.
I don't think tranquils on veno is a great idea. First of all, you want to be harassing in lane as much as possible due to poison sting. Also, you really need hp on him, and unless you go tranquils drums, you're going to be very very very squishy. Phase at least gives you survivability through speed.
On December 13 2013 08:01 mizU wrote: I don't think tranquils on veno is a great idea. First of all, you want to be harassing in lane as much as possible due to poison sting. Also, you really need hp on him, and unless you go tranquils drums, you're going to be very very very squishy. Phase at least gives you survivability through speed.
People worry about deactivation on Tranquils too much. Realize that even deactivated Tranquils are 60 MS 4 armor for 975 gold. That is very good value even if there was never an active regen state. The regen/bonus MS out of combat are basically free.
As far as HP, it's actually far easier to itemize early HP than it is to get armor on supports early. Urn, Bracers, casual Vit Booster, etc. all give HP.
On December 26 2013 22:36 Mb79584 wrote: Also the movement speed goes away when you need it the most with tranqs so hp treads will still be necessary if in fight utility is the goal
Deactivated Tranquils still have an MS advantage over every other type of boots except Travels.
On December 27 2013 04:47 mizU wrote: is bassy ring worth getting on veno? i don't see too many venos building it, do wards not get +armor from it?
the +armor aura would affect creeps too and push your lane. you sometimes get the basi for extra pushing power.
it's certainly not a bad buy but more often than not by the time you have spare gold for a basi you would rather be getting boots or building towards a bigger item. you're going to need arcanes either way so it's not like basi solves your mana problems. maybe treads+aquila for strong early game right click?
On December 27 2013 05:18 mizU wrote: but you can toggle the ring... right? i mean for pushing and defending pushes bassy seems pretty efficient
are you recommending arcanes over bassy?
normally you have the ring off which means it only affects you + other heroes im saying if you want the armor on the wards then it would be for pushing a tower, otherwise it just pushes your lane.
im not recommending arcanes OVER basi, because basi doesn't solve your mana problems (i.e. you wouldn't get basi purely for the purposes of mana regen). unless you have a way to boost your int/mana pool, you're never going to have the mana to use your ult.
Basi is okay on veno, but there's a few issues. Veno, first, needs a high mana pool to help deal with ult + gale combo, and early arcanes helps with that a lot. Also, a large majority of carries end up picking up basi anyways to help push towers, and the 500 gold cost can hurt a bit when it comes up to picking up your wards / sentries / smoke / dust, or even delay a mek / force staff.
The main argument against Basi is honestly that as a support, it's generally the case that someone else already got one by the time you can really spare 500 gold to get one (e.g. Agi carry got Aquila for laning, some off-laners getting casual Basi for mana and lane control). And it's not all that great to get another one if someone already got one.
It's reasonable to buy one to supplement pushes if no one else on your team got one by the time you've got your basics covered and can spare the gold for one.
Am I the only one who feels Tranq Boots > Eul > Blink > Veil > Aghs > Shiva is extremely effective on Veno? I play him as sort of a follow-up initiator, hanging in the back waiting for my team's initiator to go in and/or wait until the enemy team uses all their stuns before going in and dropping your poison bomb.
Combo is Shiva > Blink > Veil > Gale > Nova, use Eul defensively if needed.
Eul + Blink gives Veno an escape method (Eul yourself, Blink away) and great mobility for early ganking potential. Eul guarantees Gale hits, and allows you to catch people from far away.
Tranq Boots is nice as you can regen while still laying your ward mine field.
Shiva + Gale slows people to a crawl, and gives Veno the tankiness to survive late game and stay relevant.
Veno's ult does have a large range but IMO if Blink allows you to hit even just one extra person with your ult makes it worth it. Plus Blink really helps positioning yourself to hit multiple people with Gale.
I think the item build is flexible in that it is effective at every point, so it's an effective pathway no matter your farm position. Eul's solves early mana problems, can make an early Basi for extra lane dominance and can disassemble later for Tranq and Eul's. Can still have a big team fight and ganking impact from just Tran + Eul + Blink.
Of course if you're in a pushing line-up and trying to hit a timing then Arcane/Mek/Urn reigns supreme.
Also skill build wise I typically like to max sting first for early lane harassment. Sometimes I grab a few extra early levels in Wards if I'm jungling a bit. Veno can actually jungle decently with Wards in certain locations, for example in the camp closest to radiant side mid lane. Just make a wall of wards up the stairs and peck away. It your carry doesn't need your help in lane this can be an option to get a little farm and stay hidden from the map while you wait for gank opportunities to present themselves.
Quite simply, that's way too much farm for a position 4 or 5 veno to get. Would rather see those items on a puck. Blink on veno is debatable with the mana cost removal, but the main issue to me is that it is a suicide veno strategy and decent opponents can bkb fast enough to dodge nova ( and sometimes gale). By the time a veno gets that much farm the other team will either have mass bkb, pipe, or be being stomped so hard it doesn't matter. Also, what is the plan for early game mana regent with that build? (I don't see any issues with euls)
-Obviously I'm not getting 6-slotted every game. That's why I mention the item progression is good throughout. You can be effective with just Tranq + Eul's + Blink.
-Everybody knows Veno falls off hard as the game goes ultra late. Blink allows him to stay somewhat relevant as you can instantly follow up your initiator and get your combo off while they are stunned before they pop BKB. It also lets you hang back and drop wards and such and Blink in and ult when BKBs wear off.
-Your combo easily burns right through Pipe.
-All mana issues are solved by the early Eul's.
-It can be suicidal depending on the situation, but you have a much larger team fight impact. Whether you live or not is dependent on a lot of factors. Remember a good combo will leave a lot of people moving at a snail's pace so they can't really chase. Counting the other team's CCs is important, as well as the position you Blink to. You also can use Eul's defensively. A lot depends on team execution as well.
I heard from friends that some pro teams are using veno as an offlaner, I'd like to know if this is viable often or extremely specific to those lineups/playstyles?
Also, what is the skill build, item build and what is it the veno seeks to accomplish? Is he the "give up lane early and roam" kind of offlaner (like nyx, centaur) or stay in lane and fight type (lone druid)?
the few times ive seen veno offlane run, its massing up veno wards and holding the offlane tower for an ungodly long time. usually picked against a chen or enigma. generally speaking, its not very useful but i could see it working if gone unpunished.
problem with it is veno is very vulnerable if he leaves tower range to push.
You definitely don't want to give up the lane and roam, because there are other offlaners better suited to this.
That said, he does have somewhat of a recovery jungle option, so maybe it could work better than im giving it credit for. a fast aghs on this hero is very hard to deal with.
It was more popular before his nerfs, but still can work. It's a pretty difficult job and you really need an obs ward, as your goal is to put enormous pressure on their safelane without dying. With a few exceptions, you can bully their carry out of lane if their supports leave and kill their tower, thus tying their supports to the lane and limiting their xp. Unless you except your supports or mid to rotate, you'll want to skip gale and prioritize wards over sting after lvl 1.
In essence, Veno creates lots of space in the first 15 mins for his other lanes, then has powerful sieging/teamfight contribution for the next 20~ mins after that before mostly falling off. It's a pretty unique role and rather fun to play.
after you get lvl 2 wards its pretty easy to get enough vision to somewhat be safe from ganks and you should be able to control the lane to some extent. smokeganks are the biggest issue because veno is very fragile once they catch on to you.
im not quite sure about the skillbuild thou. it seems like people skip gale completely or leave it at lvl 1. lvl 1 gale is very underwhelming as it only gives you a slow while i feel like lvl 2 adds enough damage to warrant 2 skillpoints in gale. my skillbuild usually is 2-1-4-0 at lvl 7
What items would you go as a DPSer as once and awhile I get snowball from kills and my carries often times are multiple levels behind me and have way less gold warrenting me to go DPS so our team doesn't get run over by theirs. What would the item choice be after aghs.
since you get enough hp with aghs i think maelstrom is the right choice. other options would be manta if you have things to dispel or butterfly if you need the evasion
On July 12 2014 15:40 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote: What items would you go as a DPSer as once and awhile I get snowball from kills and my carries often times are multiple levels behind me and have way less gold warrenting me to go DPS so our team doesn't get run over by theirs. What would the item choice be after aghs.
veil veil veil
veil does more for your dps after aghs than any other item.
problem with building agi carry items on veno is he doesnt have a steroid and he needs item slots for mobility. stuff like force or blink.
On July 12 2014 15:40 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote: What items would you go as a DPSer as once and awhile I get snowball from kills and my carries often times are multiple levels behind me and have way less gold warrenting me to go DPS so our team doesn't get run over by theirs. What would the item choice be after aghs.
Um, it's totally situational. If you're against opponents who aren't building BKBs then a veil is a very good item, Shivas is quite good. Scythe of Vyse is never bad. As someone who loves heroes like Necrolyte I tend to play utility heroes the same, I stack survivability and team auras on them (My end game in the scenario referred to would be from this group - Travels, scythe, aghs, pipe, bkb, mek, necro3, AC).
If you're going to transition into a DPS role then you can basically buy whatever you feel like. Manta, MKB, Mjolnir, Butterfly are all good options. The issue Veno has as a carry is that his base MS is slow and his range isn't particularly high, and he can't reach morphling levels of damage output (morph is even slower with shorter range) so he's reliant on being able to hit enemy heroes. Lothars/Blink are ways to get around being kited by the enemy, the former letting you close range and do burst damage and the latter letting you set up easy gales (and if they're taken by surprise and have normal reaction speeds there's a good chance you can get off your gale before they bkb). Forcestaff gets an honorable mention, in some scenarios it's better than the other two (mainly vs Clockwerk)
I'm never a fan of buying too many items to amplify already high damage spells. Agha boost is good enough. I would rather buy useful items like eblade/hex/halberd/diffusual/atos/shiva etc. basically items with a useful active instead.
I'm debating updating this guide but I need some opinions. Is the arcane + mek rush now outdated for POS 4 and 5? Is tranquil + Aquila the correct build? Those are my two main things. Less important considerations are the value of the new items, specifically aether lens, and how good aghs is currently.
I would say manaboots veil/aghs with situational blink/force somewhere is his core. I wouldn't make an aquila on a veno unless he was at least 3rd farm priority. I'm sure aether lens isn't bad, but I wouldn't prioritize it over any of the above.
I personally go midas almost every game, even on support. (on support I'll go like brown boots / wand / midas, on core something more like stick if laning against spell spammers, bottle if mid / brown boots / aquila / midas) The reasoning is similar to midas on support AA--it's your levels, and particularly level 16, that makes you potent, not your early-game items. I guess if you're playing a coordinated 5-stack game or a professional game, it's probably better to go mek -> midas as core so your team can fight better early.
After midas I buy some obs/sentries if support and then farm up a utility item (usually force staff, but stuff like euls/veil/mek/glimmer can be good too, although if you go mek or glimmer arcane boots is mandatory). I don't go aghs second, even on core, because one of the big benefits of aghs, the cd reduction, only happens at level 16, and if you rush aghs after midas you get it before level 16 and it's a little lackluster. After your 1st utility item, you should go aghs if core and consider aghs vs other items (euls/veil/mek/glimmer/pipe/blink/ghost/greaves/lotus) if support. When 6-slotted you probably want something like travels / aghs / octarine / 3 utility/mobility/survivability items, depends on game.
Aether lens is garbage imo, ward placement range and gale range is not that big of a deal and if you want more spell damage go veil or aghs.
On July 12 2014 15:40 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote: What items would you go as a DPSer as once and awhile I get snowball from kills and my carries often times are multiple levels behind me and have way less gold warrenting me to go DPS so our team doesn't get run over by theirs. What would the item choice be after aghs.
veil veil veil
veil does more for your dps after aghs than any other item.
Gunna quote myself for relevance 2 years later. Plus veil has been hyperbuffed
I don't like mek on him. It comes out too late if you are position 4/5. Your job is more to spread aids from the edge of the fight, not soak a bunch of damage.
Tranqs/soulring/veil/mobility item feels very good on this hero if supporting. Sometimes euls if you need an extra interrupt. Easy build up all the way along and it keeps you on the map. I'm not a huge fan of arcanes - I think you get enough of a boost in mana pool from veil. If you are intelligent with ward placement you only need 40-60 mana to clear camps during downtime.
Veno is one of those heroes it feels just hard/impossible to judge if youre actually useful or not. On one hand you deal stupid amount of damage if you hit a good ult. But on the other hand you dont win games by having someone die after a fight so you end up losing a fight 3-4 instead of 2-4. And you dont win games by making the whole enemy team end on 20% after a fight forcing them back to fountain. You win games by actually winning fights.
And then theres all the annoyance of having some ~5 wards placed in every fight. On one hand you apply a slow to every one, you cancel blink daggers and the damage does add up up to something at least. And thats all good stuff. But is a fight/game winning stuff? Because on the other hand you dont contribute to killing someone your team focuses well at all.
I wont deny its pretty fun to watch people die 10sec after a fight is over, but its really questionable how much good it does.
My problem with this hero is whatever he does someone else can do it better, visage pets have better vision/siege/crowdcontrol/disabling blink/damage output overall than venom wards, and it does not fall off nearly as hard.
A lot of big ults have similar aoe radius with massive INSTANTANEOUS nuke damage, and on top of that offers additional utility. A blog on dotabuff compared Earth Spirit to Venom and i am gonna use the example here as well,
1. ES can initiate into a good position to catch multiple people with his ult without the necessity to purchase forcestaff/blink/glimmer cape. 2. It offers tons of utility (aoe stun/silence that last for significant amount of time), utilities that are very impactful at all stages of the game. 3. Even when his ult is down ES offers sizable amount of disable/mobility.
I am not stating venom needs a buff, its just like kunkka, overshadowed by a hero (ember) that can do anything he does and do it better.
On March 16 2016 21:48 goldspoon wrote: My problem with this hero is whatever he does someone else can do it better, visage pets have better vision/siege/crowdcontrol/disabling blink/damage output overall than venom wards, and it does not fall off nearly as hard.
A lot of big ults have similar aoe radius with massive INSTANTANEOUS nuke damage, and on top of that offers additional utility. A blog on dotabuff compared Earth Spirit to Venom and i am gonna use the example here as well,
1. ES can initiate into a good position to catch multiple people with his ult without the necessity to purchase forcestaff/blink/glimmer cape. 2. It offers tons of utility (aoe stun/silence that last for significant amount of time), utilities that are very impactful at all stages of the game. 3. Even when his ult is down ES offers sizable amount of disable/mobility.
I am not stating venom needs a buff, its just like kunkka, overshadowed by a hero (ember) that can do anything he does and do it better.
ES is probably gonna get nerfed in the near future. Also you totally ignore the vision advantage that wards provide over visage, that gale slow is absolutely brutal for some heroes (and spirit's stun is pretty bad), the fact that his ult may be a dot but it's still one of the highest damage dealing abilities in the game and that Venomancer can just fortify positions in a similar way to tombstone (albeit weaker). Honestly the main thing where es is better is his mobility. Which is the main reason he's picked right now, he can rotate mid and initiate from outside of vision range and if he hits he slows a hero for 2 sec by 80%, which is most of the time enough for a strong mid to kill his opponent. You can't just ignore all the good points a hero has and then say that he's outclassed.
On March 16 2016 08:48 DucK- wrote: Veil is so good. Remember solo killing a slark who died at fountain :D
[Edit]
My previous above shows ignorance. Forgive me.
To be fair, the item has been buffed several times since your last post :D
Slark can just dark pact off veno's abilities
Slark cannot dark pact off poison sting, poison nova, or veil debuff; veno would be unplayable if you could just dispel all of his shit.
Also not sure why people are comparing venomancer to heroes that do completely different things. He has 1.5 (being generous here and giving gale vs roll a .5) similar spells to ES and 0 similar spells to visage, and all the similarities end there.
In terms of role there is some overlap, Veno is extremely strong at chasing down heroes, is good at moving around early, and backs that up with strong teamfight potential. All of that is similar to Earth Spirit except ES' mobility and hard control is replaced by damage and slows.
In terms of Visage I don't see the comparison as much, but both heroes do offer a strong lane pressure support kit, but they do it in completely different ways.
As for Veno's problem I think "strong early game kill presence into strong push defense" is an awkward support hero transition and the ult damage is great, but there's a lot of support ults that deal massive damage but will drop a target fast to tilt a fight.
I think offlane solo/duo veno is pretty good. He puts a lot of pressure on their safelane and then tears down towers pretty well in the midgame, and that progression is nice when every nerd is picking spectre.
It's always tough to justify a support with so little CC, though. You really have to crush your lane and have your other lanes do well enough that you can rotate and start sieging towers.
I have no clue why he's being compared to kaolin, aside from the fact that they're both supports.
i really like messing around with veno in pubs and in midlane as well. early level advantage is sickeningly brutal for some heroes. 40 sec duration, 600 range, ward and blink disabler? yes please
elder titan, veno, veil, ancient apparition? yes please. LOL it's such a momentum-based hero that I don't think it ever works as a support in competitive anymore. maybe with something silly like a bounty at the very same time bullying out something like a spectre, AM.
What's the general build idea if you find yourself as a position 3 Veno, specifically boots? I tried to play him as a support, and ended up as the offlane priority. I went Aquila + Veil + Blink + Aghs, but really wasn't sure what to go for boots specifically. I didn't feel like I needed any in particular besides the movespeed, but tranquils seemed silly as a #3.
On March 20 2016 06:03 Kreb wrote: Tranqs are super fine. Tranqs are probably most common in offlane because you're expected to take a descent amount of harass being in 1v2/1v3 lanes.
If you dont feel you need the regen (veil gives some), just stay brown boots until lategame travels.
Thanks! I went the travel route that game (I was in a 2v1 lane in our favor because they had a jungler + roaming pudge) and it worked out, but I did feel sluggish in mid game battles. I'll probably just go for the tranquils next time if that's the case.
On March 20 2016 05:27 Logo wrote: What's the general build idea if you find yourself as a position 3 Veno, specifically boots? I tried to play him as a support, and ended up as the offlane priority. I went Aquila + Veil + Blink + Aghs, but really wasn't sure what to go for boots specifically. I didn't feel like I needed any in particular besides the movespeed, but tranquils seemed silly as a #3.
Imho veno is a typical hero who doesn't really need items. I'd consider gg's, offlane mek helps you teamfight earlier and arcanes are good on the hero. Then again I'm not sure his mana pool can handle mek+ult, but since you are probably building veil and aghs anyways it should be on the long run. Midas is probably another thing that's really nice.
I build treads on Veno as I feel he needs the Hp considering he is generally going to be in the midst of fights and Veno generally auto attacks quite a bit so the AS is nice on him.
On March 22 2016 16:28 DucK- wrote: Naw you don't really need to right click with treads unless it's to win lanes. Get early veil and win fights just by pressing ulti
Agreed, veno is best played suicidally, walk/blink into as many heroes as you can, veil + ult + gale, try to right click to apply poison to as many heroes as you can before going down -> your team runs in and wins fight against low hp heroes after enemy uses spells on you. Tranquils and travels are the best boots, with arcanes being situational if you or allies need the mana.
I prefer a more defensive style with arcanes > blink > guardian greaves and just tp rotate around to defend and push towers and place observer wards. And of course spam plague wards everywhere for extra vision and blink disabling.
If you have stronger late game carry heroes on your team then a defensive venomancer is great to keep your towers alive and to keep your carries safe and enough space to get big.
I am a shittier support player and Veno is my favourite and most successful support hero. But nowadays pros seem to use him as a core. How does that work?
On August 05 2016 04:35 ahswtini wrote: u farm aghs and veil, press r and kill everyone
Yeah, so I was kinda baffled to see today a 3 pos veno farming hurricane pike into lotus orb...
If he was jungling it's because piercing damage does an extra 50% damage to creeps as of a recent patch, it's why BM goes straight to the jungle and Veno can be even faster than BM, so it's a way to get utility items very fast.
I haven't seen the specific game in question, however.
On August 05 2016 04:35 ahswtini wrote: u farm aghs and veil, press r and kill everyone
Yeah, so I was kinda baffled to see today a 3 pos veno farming hurricane pike into lotus orb...
If you're referring to notail, he got those items for the team. Not sure about Hurricane, probably for stats + Force Staff. But Lotus was to protect team against Wings.
Veno in general doesn't really need items. Veil Agha though is awesome
On August 05 2016 03:38 Ufnal wrote: Dear LiquidDota,
I am a shittier support player and Veno is my favourite and most successful support hero. But nowadays pros seem to use him as a core. How does that work?
i believe veno's still one of the faster afk junglers in the game right now
On August 05 2016 04:35 ahswtini wrote: u farm aghs and veil, press r and kill everyone
Yeah, so I was kinda baffled to see today a 3 pos veno farming hurricane pike into lotus orb...
If he was jungling it's because piercing damage does an extra 50% damage to creeps as of a recent patch, it's why BM goes straight to the jungle and Veno can be even faster than BM, so it's a way to get utility items very fast.
I haven't seen the specific game in question, however.
It was N0tail safelane veno. The strategy was Miracle on Huskar and 4 support heroes for Miracle. N0tail was just a support with extra farm that game.
watch the game btw. it has a pretty surprising result the way the game was going. pro builds are often very different and situational because the team has a very clear plan to play around and execute.
hurricane pike i don't know. maybe he valued the slow on autos, he was not going to build something like a euls which some people do against ursa/spiritbreaker in pubs. the lotus orb is like an extra linkens with stats. that was the game where they were kiting the sven right? cheaper items into a hex, and by the time all the extra disables are over, including the abyssal on huskar, the CD on halberd is gone and everyone can rotate the disables all over again if necessary,once tinker is dead.
latelategame sven is where you ideally want a fresh bkb.
Veno jungle is pretty cancerous. I play about 3.9k and have about 75% winrate across ~15 games since I've been doing this. Some thoughts:
* qb+2 clarities+2 obs+courier is definitely the best starting items. tell your other support to go boots first or oov/windlace. unless the enemy has all invis heroes then jungle veno can afford to buy all support items all game. Giving your second support license to go boots first or w/e helps make up for your early roam in the first 5-8 minutes.
* veil first is not great. mek first is better. You can get either at about 8-9 min with boots/flying etc. veil is a good damage boost but it offers nothing until it's complete. mek has better buildup as buckler and headdress both give you push. also, when you start pressuring towers your allies are probably only just hitting level 6/7 so their nukes aren't great and they can't sustain spam because of low mana pools. yes if veno lands gale+nova+veil on someone then they are 100% dead, but early game respawn times are short so they can still get back in time to defend your push. sustain from mek is better early. Going veil first is like going all in on BH with enigma jungle - generally bad.
* after you have level 4 wards you should farm ancients and leave normal camps to the rest of your team. if you have downtime when your team doesn't want to push it's pretty easy to bounce between farming ancients and defending mid/offlane without TPing.
* all you really need to have a huge game impact is mek/arcanes/force, maybe veil. I farm hard until I have mek/arcanes, get force mostly off tower gold, then go lower in farm priority for anything else. I take dangerous farm with plague wards and leave most farm for cores. I always buy the majority of support items.
* going veil/ags is OK but it's very all in on your ult. all it takes is someone building pipe and 1 decent aoe heal and your combo gets neutered. I'd rather have greaves/force than veil/ags 9 games out of 10. I like to build more tank/utility items like pipe/ac/sheep/lotus/linkens instead of damage. Veil/ags also commits you more towards suicide initiation. I prefer to stay back and spam wards, saving force for allies and saving Nova for counter initiation. I still really like veil for this build if our team has lots of magic burst though, just not the follow up ags.
* as above, veno is never going to end the game alone. you can shit on the enemy for 30 minutes but eventually you need to rely on physical damage dealers and burst to break highground. this is why I build more tank/utility items to help my real cores instead of ags/veil.
* practice the first few minutes in empty lobbies so you get the hang of farming without losing clarities or taking much damage. Radiant hard/medium combo near mid is easy for this - with 2 clarities to start and 1 more flown out you can basically stay at full mana/hp. Dire medium/medium/hard is tougher to avoid taking hits because you don't have the cliff to work with. The trick is cutting just enough trees to give you vision without making a choke you can't obstruct with wards. Also, start 3 clarities on dire. With practice you can easily have 8 min mek (or equivalent items) and high hp/mana at this time. Veno definitely can farm at low HP because wards do all the work, but this obviously makes you vulnerable to jungle invasion and makes you unable to TP against dives. If you stay at high hp/mana then after level 4 (2-2.5 min in) you can easily counter dives with TP-gale-wards.
i prefer being more active for a level or two because lv 1 gale + suicide is really strong, and then getting a few levels and jungling out a midas or mek or whatever.
i like going midas/mek/greaves/veil/aghs, but i could see pretty much anything working. greaves is definitely absurdly strong on veno because he is naturally targetted down every fight. its pretty funny if you have good tempo and farm and levels, because you take a bunch of cc, pop greaves, ult everyone, gale them, and get 3 kills
i like dual offlane, because you can fall back and easily ancients out a midas by 9-10 mins
early though just getting boots, optional wind lace, rain drops, blight stone is everything you need to farm the game out.
blight stone helps a lot for jungling and ancients and early towers
Best way to play is the Zai way. Iron talon get lvl5 in 3mins. Then add immense pressure on their safelane.
Mek or veil first definitely depends on lineup, whether the team can group up to push and the amount of magic damage your teammates have. Mek usually requires arcane first to solve mana issues while veil can be bought straight
Midas is a great alternative if your gameplan is just to stall out the game with veno wards, then hit with a stronger mid-late game timing.
So veno is one of those heroes in this meta right now that is seeing a fair bit of play. He’s really flexible and there’s a lot of different builds, but there’s one right now that’s seeing a lot of high level pub play and tournament play. And it’s really strong.
So with veno you want to go core and take whatever lane you can dominate — melee core matchups ideally. After you get your core items up — boots Aquila wand etc — you pivot hard to rush spirit vessel. Then you grab whatever utility you need — usually euls or pipe, force, etc.
Then you go octarine. Seems kinda wild but the idea is you go gale cool down + gale spawns wards + ward hp/dmg. If you get rolling in team fights you can get like 20 wards up by spitting gales out every 7 seconds, spawning 4-6 if they are clumped each time. If you fight on top of an objective, even if you get wiped, you’ll almost always take the objective.
Then on top of that all of the syngery octo gives you with your ult and wards.
It’s a cool build. Different tempo compared to the GPM/utility veno that rushes hex
That was Nisha's build wasn't it? During Secret's game 2 against Vici? I'm going to have to watch that game because it looked like despite Secret winning they cut it way too close.
And that being said, I think I remember GrandGranT mentioning that Venomancer isn't really a Nisha hero. That was during some other tournament where it looked like he was struggling with it.
On November 13 2018 10:45 M.S.Bismarck wrote: That was Nisha's build wasn't it? During Secret's game 2 against Vici? I'm going to have to watch that game because it looked like despite Secret winning they cut it way too close.
And that being said, I think I remember GrandGranT mentioning that Venomancer isn't really a Nisha hero. That was during some other tournament where it looked like he was struggling with it.
Yeah I think he did it a few games, but it’s pretty popular in high tier pubs right now. I’m not sure if it’s because of him, or if it was trending
I think I saw Nisha do 4-4-0 with it which I think is insane
On November 13 2018 10:45 M.S.Bismarck wrote: That was Nisha's build wasn't it? During Secret's game 2 against Vici? I'm going to have to watch that game because it looked like despite Secret winning they cut it way too close.
And that being said, I think I remember GrandGranT mentioning that Venomancer isn't really a Nisha hero. That was during some other tournament where it looked like he was struggling with it.
Yeah I think he did it a few games, but it’s pretty popular in high tier pubs right now. I’m not sure if it’s because of him, or if it was trending
I think I saw Nisha do 4-4-0 with it which I think is insane
Secret one that since VP failed to really break high ground. Nisha's item build was drastically different back then and Secret put him back on Veno game 3 only to get crushed by a Huskar pick.
As someone who learned Dota 2 through Venomancer and still has him as his most played hero, any time I see people skip Plague Wards I feel like I'm getting a rash on my butt.
Though back to Malaysia, Universe went Force Staff>Halberd>Aghs>Blink>Heart against Gambit's physical damage lineup. Guess that shows some testament to the hero's flexibility in items, but I think I do like Heart over Octarine. Heart is pretty strong on these dps cores like Necrophos. I wouldn't be surprised to see that item nerfed a little bit.
It depends on the lane and game tempo so much in my opinion whether to skip wards or max gale.
For example I tanked a brood lane with veno, maxing gale in that lane was invalueable as my wards would've been completely ignored and galing the brood when it ran at me was what llowed me to lane. In another matchup wards might've helped push a low armor hero out of the lane.
3 wraithband wand treads -> (can skip if not needed: vessel, hood, euls, or vanguard/crimson) -> radiance -> blink -> octo
Talents: gale CD, plague wards, spell life steal, plague wards
Get 3+ poison sting early, 2 minimum in gale, get wards as needed when you start taking over a lane/jungle. I usually delay ult till 11/12
So far this is the best version of this build I’ve tried. Seems clowny but the timings work out. Divine 3 fwiw
Veno wins his lane, farms very safely, and usually requires a lot of attention to gank so he makes tons of space. He generally has no problem getting 1 major item, then he starts losing split push power and stalls in farm. Treads radiance means you farm up while it’s safe to do so, then you group with rad and your lvl 15 and you are real hard to fight in to. Blink is used for positioning and accelerating farm, could go force instead. Octo and 20 means you are really hard to kill in drawn out fights, which is good cause you need to snowball xp till your 25 wards when you reach peak plagueiness.
I’ve experimented with other item builds — tranquil, force, early greaves, Midas, euls, mael — but nothing seems to have the impact rad does.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/3/39/Venomancer_Large.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/8/8f/Venomancer_venomous_gale.png/105px-Venomancer_venomous_gale.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rAbJcpb.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Eglnv22.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/c/ca/Venomancer_poison_sting.png/105px-Venomancer_poison_sting.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/c/c0/Venomancer_plague_ward.png/105px-Venomancer_plague_ward.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/d/dd/Venomancer_poison_nova.png/105px-Venomancer_poison_nova.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/9/91/Tango.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/9/9c/Healing_Salve.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/e/eb/Iron_Branch.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/d/d7/Clarity.png/75px-Clarity.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/6/69/Observer_Ward.png/75px-Observer_Ward.png)
or ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/c/cd/Animal_Courier.png/75px-Animal_Courier.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/5/53/Sentry_Ward.png/75px-Sentry_Ward.png)
to enable pulls and dewarding)![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/0/07/Boots_of_Speed.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/1/15/Arcane_Boots.png/75px-Arcane_Boots.png)
, constant up-keep of ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/b/b8/Mekansm.png/75px-Mekansm.png)
if 4th. For counterwarding eventually a ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/3/3a/Gem_of_True_Sight.png/75px-Gem_of_True_Sight.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/a/a4/Ring_of_Basilius.png/75px-Ring_of_Basilius.png)
if no one else on the team is getting one, sometimes even if they are - this item makes pushes and laning both significantly stronger for Venomancer. ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/7/78/Urn_of_Shadows.png/75px-Urn_of_Shadows.png)
, ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/b/b4/Smoke_of_Deceit.png/75px-Smoke_of_Deceit.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/1/1e/Pipe_of_Insight.png/75px-Pipe_of_Insight.png)
, ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/b/b3/Scythe_of_Vyse.png/75px-Scythe_of_Vyse.png)
