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On June 20 2016 01:55 trollcenter wrote:
Col, VP and Vega are not Top 4 world and I can't see any argument for them being tier 1 other than the fact that they get to Lans. Tier 1.5 seems a fair description. You can't put them in the same category as tournament winners. Na'Vi are around Alliance's level atm (who they barely beat when they last played), which is not bad, but way behind teams in the top 4 and not that much in front of other tier 1.5 teams.
Well, I don't think there are that many tier 1 teams out there right now. Liquid, OG, Newbee. That's it.
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OG is pretty much another level than every other team right now tbh.
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On June 20 2016 01:55 trollcenter wrote:
Col, VP and Vega are not Top 4 world and I can't see any argument for them being tier 1 other than the fact that they get to Lans. Tier 1.5 seems a fair description. You can't put them in the same category as tournament winners. Na'Vi are around Alliance's level atm (who they barely beat when they last played), which is not bad, but way behind teams in the top 4 and not that much in front of other tier 1.5 teams.
Ok you are just trolling (name checks)
Honestly NaVi and assuming there arent "half tiers", navi is the top of tier 2 trying to improve to get into tier 1 territory... its a long road and not even Liquid can beat OG on a regular basis.
you are looking at the glass half empty instead of half full, 4-5 months ago navi would not even get out of group stages, now they are consistently getting to finals or doing decently well (they had a shitty draw in major... OG THEN LIQUID ? thats like the hardest road ever).
I mean, even this liquid at some point was super meh (and so was OG between Frankfurt and Manila), so whats your point ?
Nowadays OG is just flat out impressive and way ahead of the curve in dota 2
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On June 20 2016 02:57 Faruko wrote:
consistently getting to finals or doing decently well (they had a shitty draw in major... OG THEN LIQUID ? thats like the hardest road ever)
Doing well is not the same as playing tier 1 dota. Sure you can say they are doing well compared to before, but that is always relative. If you look at their matches in the last three major LAN events they attended:
WePlay
1-0 vs E.Wolves
1-0 vs Empire
0-2 vs MVP
0-2 vs Empire
Manila Major
2-0 vs Secret
2-0 vs DC
0-2 vs OG
2-1 vs Alliance
0-2 vs Liquid
ESL Frankfurt
0-2 OG
2-1 VP
2-0 coL
2-0 Vega
0-2 OG (bo5 still in progress)
Has NaVi been playing better, sure, but any "finals" run is mostly due to them not running into a true tier 1 team early in the tournament. As others have eluded to, NaVi is clearly in the same tier as the likes of Fnatic and Alliance - and that is they are really good and can beat almost anyone on a good day, but still lagging behind the true tier 1 teams. Put this way, NaVi has one recent series against Fnatic/Alliance, the two teams most like them in terms of results/play and that was an extremely close 2-1 victory over Alliance. If you look at how Fnatic, Alliance and NaVi all play, their match history, who they beat and who they lose to, all three of them are practically identical.
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well OG and liquid are the only true tier 1 team nowadays tbh
so theres that, those two teams are just on a whole other level right now
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arent we all
damn navi must be feeling crushed by now
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On June 20 2016 03:22 sang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 02:57 Faruko wrote:
consistently getting to finals or doing decently well (they had a shitty draw in major... OG THEN LIQUID ? thats like the hardest road ever) Doing well is not the same as playing tier 1 dota. Sure you can say they are doing well compared to before, but that is always relative. If you look at their matches in the last three major LAN events they attended: WePlay1-0 vs E.Wolves 1-0 vs Empire 0-2 vs MVP
0-2 vs EmpireManila Major2-0 vs Secret 2-0 vs DC 0-2 vs OG2-1 vs Alliance 0-2 vs LiquidESL Frankfurt0-2 OG2-1 VP 2-0 coL 2-0 Vega 0-2 OG (bo5 still in progress)Has NaVi been playing better, sure, but any "finals" run is mostly due to them not running into a true tier 1 team early in the tournament. As others have eluded to, NaVi is clearly in the same tier as the likes of Fnatic and Alliance - and that is they are really good and can beat almost anyone on a good day, but still lagging behind the true tier 1 teams. Put this way, NaVi has one recent series against Fnatic/Alliance, the two teams most like them in terms of results/play and that was an extremely close 2-1 victory over Alliance. If you look at how Fnatic, Alliance and NaVi all play, their match history, who they beat and who they lose to, all three of them are practically identical.
What is your point? You say nothing different from what Faruko said. NaVi is not tier1, there are only a few teams (4 at most) there and NaVi is at the top of the tier2. Are you just agreeing or what?
Sad to see them lose 3-0, I was hoping for at least one game.
Anyway keep it up guys, the road to TI6 is right in front.
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On June 20 2016 03:22 sang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 02:57 Faruko wrote:
consistently getting to finals or doing decently well (they had a shitty draw in major... OG THEN LIQUID ? thats like the hardest road ever) Doing well is not the same as playing tier 1 dota. Sure you can say they are doing well compared to before, but that is always relative. If you look at their matches in the last three major LAN events they attended: WePlay1-0 vs E.Wolves 1-0 vs Empire 0-2 vs MVP
0-2 vs EmpireManila Major2-0 vs Secret 2-0 vs DC 0-2 vs OG2-1 vs Alliance 0-2 vs LiquidESL Frankfurt0-2 OG2-1 VP 2-0 coL 2-0 Vega 0-2 OG (bo5 still in progress)Has NaVi been playing better, sure, but any "finals" run is mostly due to them not running into a true tier 1 team early in the tournament. As others have eluded to, NaVi is clearly in the same tier as the likes of Fnatic and Alliance - and that is they are really good and can beat almost anyone on a good day, but still lagging behind the true tier 1 teams. Put this way, NaVi has one recent series against Fnatic/Alliance, the two teams most like them in terms of results/play and that was an extremely close 2-1 victory over Alliance. If you look at how Fnatic, Alliance and NaVi all play, their match history, who they beat and who they lose to, all three of them are practically identical.
Cool story bro. No one said they were tier 1. Whats your point ?
Point is, they only teams they are getting knocked out of tournaments too are ones that are pretty much a whole level above. Being the best of the rest isnt a terrible deal for this team. But it is getting places that is evident to anyone.
And the moron who was talking about a "free ticket" to the finals. Well it would only be a free ticket if they were a tier 1 team, which they arent. So I dont see how thats relevant either.
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On June 20 2016 03:22 sang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 02:57 Faruko wrote:
consistently getting to finals or doing decently well (they had a shitty draw in major... OG THEN LIQUID ? thats like the hardest road ever) Doing well is not the same as playing tier 1 dota. Sure you can say they are doing well compared to before, but that is always relative. If you look at their matches in the last three major LAN events they attended: WePlay1-0 vs E.Wolves 1-0 vs Empire 0-2 vs MVP
0-2 vs EmpireManila Major2-0 vs Secret 2-0 vs DC 0-2 vs OG2-1 vs Alliance 0-2 vs LiquidESL Frankfurt0-2 OG2-1 VP 2-0 coL 2-0 Vega 0-2 OG (bo5 still in progress)Has NaVi been playing better, sure, but any "finals" run is mostly due to them not running into a true tier 1 team early in the tournament. As others have eluded to, NaVi is clearly in the same tier as the likes of Fnatic and Alliance - and that is they are really good and can beat almost anyone on a good day, but still lagging behind the true tier 1 teams. Put this way, NaVi has one recent series against Fnatic/Alliance, the two teams most like them in terms of results/play and that was an extremely close 2-1 victory over Alliance. If you look at how Fnatic, Alliance and NaVi all play, their match history, who they beat and who they lose to, all three of them are practically identical.
Ok what ?
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There's only 3 tier 1 teams
All we're saying is that they are at the top of the pack of the Tier 2 ones. Saying they just get free ticket to Lans with 8+invites is just attention whoring.
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On June 20 2016 04:31 Racket wrote:
What is your point? You say nothing different from what Faruko said. NaVi is not tier1, there are only a few teams (4 at most) there and NaVi is at the top of the tier2. Are you just agreeing or what?
My point is that evaluating any of the Tier 2 teams solely by tournament result is poor exercise. The placing of any of the Tier 2 teams is entirely dependent on group and bracket draws and whether or not they match against one of Tier 1 teams early in the tournament or later. As such, it's much better to look at team-play when trying to evaluate Tier 2 rather than solely results. I'm not saying NaVi is bad, I think they are the best of Tier 2 and have an extremely good shot at getting a TI invite. Assuming there are 8 invites, I suspect they will be:
OG
Liquid
Newbee
MVP
LGD
NaVi
(Fnatic/Alliance/coL/VGR)
(Fnatic/Alliance/coL/VGR)
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Oh look, exactly what I said 1 minute ago 
Glad to see valve went with 6 invites and gave more qualifier spots.
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On June 20 2016 04:07 lxginverse wrote:
well OG and liquid are the only true tier 1 team nowadays tbh
so theres that, those two teams are just on a whole other level right now
You're forgetting about Newbee, they were 3-2 overall against OG in Manila even.
Luck also played a role for Na'vi this tourney with LGD not attending and Fata being sick on the first day. Na'vi are playing really well compared to the last 2 years but there's still much they can improve on.
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On June 20 2016 04:41 Rebs wrote:
And the moron who was talking about a "free ticket" to the finals. Well it would only be a free ticket if they were a tier 1 team, which they arent. So I dont see how thats relevant either.
Speaking about moronic statements, let's look at yours.
1. Navi is the best tier 2 - arguable. You can't clearly say they are better than Alliance or Fnatic. Unless you don't want to admit a lucky bracket where they meet the first good team in the finals.
2. It wouldn't be a free ticket if they played the best tier 2 teams, which they didn't. The worst VP in years, a massively slumping Col and Vega? Tough argument to make for the top of tier 2 based on those.
3. I admited SOME merits to doing what's needed with their bracket, free ticket does not mean they didn't deserve the victories they got. It was just an easy path, considering they didn't play even the top of tier 2.
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Navi got the invite. Not so surprising to me. 3rd best Europe team deserves it.
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Pretty sure ESL One was the deciding factor, them getting to the finals was the cut between fnatic, navi or even maybe alliance imo
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one step closer to my navi vs liquid final lol
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EPT
