EPTEvil Geniuses Discussion - Page 77
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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Danzo
2820 Posts
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Danzo
2820 Posts
On March 06 2016 14:19 whattheHEKman wrote: I think ppd gets caught in a loop when drafting occasionally. He feels a certain hero is really strong and because it isn't banned, he will continue to pick it (dark seer happens to be the hero in this tourney). When you draft the same (high skilled/wombo combo) heroes every game, it makes it easier for opposing teams to draft around it. That being said, I agree Artour and Sumail are clashing in the farm department, but I personally think it is because Sumail can't play any of the current mid heroes well. This isn't the same dominating Sumail we have seen in the past. His invoker is lackluster for the most part, ember has fallen out of the mid meta, TA apparently isn't worth picking, storm is obviously garbage, lina and qop are decent but ppd apparently thinks they're more trash tier than pugna (lol game 3 vs secret). Disappointing end to the major for EG considering we barely picked the Void/mirana/clinkz combo that worked so well in previous games, the bounty/nature's prophet combo etc etc. And last picking naga in a series decider match with a jungler is just... ppd pls. I disagree. He can play a damn good Invoker. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 06 2016 14:49 DucK- wrote: Ppd tunnel vision during the draft Its the problem with falling in love with enigma. You can always look back at the game and say "but if we hit the black hole here it would turn the game around." It is a trap. But they made it to third place, so I'm a peace with it. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Atoissen
Norway1737 Posts
On March 07 2016 02:55 Pandemona wrote: Not to worry, top 3 finishes at the majors so far is ok for me, it's always about TI and being in "ok" form so far, making top 3 finishes looking amazing at times and wow wtf at others is good. Keep learning keep improving and trying at Manilla. Then we all know its going to be 100% focus for TI6 too. Top 3 finishes at the last events will keep getting them invitations to the future events that is a certain. Im not sure if I want to support a team thats only 100% focused 1 time a year... I want them to win every tournament they enter. Even tho top3 finish is a good performance, I dont think the way they went out was ok. Theier play was not good enough, and I definatly dont think ppd's draft was good enough in the last couple of series. If anyone can give me some comforting words about progression that I didnt see, this is the time guys  | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
The only thing i can say is this season has been a let's try and find a way to play for the last few months. EG look better and better every LAN for me but of course they still have not won anything big as of late. It is hard though hmm. Manilla no worries, lets believe. EG have time off now until the Major which is there only next LAN event. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On March 08 2016 18:48 Atoissen wrote: Im not sure if I want to support a team thats only 100% focused 1 time a year... I want them to win every tournament they enter. Even tho top3 finish is a good performance, I dont think the way they went out was ok. Theier play was not good enough, and I definatly dont think ppd's draft was good enough in the last couple of series. If anyone can give me some comforting words about progression that I didnt see, this is the time guys Drafts just come from understanding and play throughout a tournament. There's not a lot of preparing and focusing that can happen for understanding a meta beyond what they (ppd) already do. Even then, that meta will change mid tournament and adaptation is just something that will need to happen internally on what the team thinks works. If you lose on drafts in a mid-tourney meta it's not really a TRAIN HARDER problem. I disagree that EG isn't focused though. I think they tried really hard and did well, but what they thought would work just didn't work. RTZ has said several times how they process tournament metas and come up with what they think beats it mid tournament, and I guess that just didn't work this time. I'm not concerned because they're amazingly consistent, and could easily have won this tournament if their adaptation worked out. They had 1 bad tournament right after TI5 which I'm comfortable is saying they were all taking standard TI break. Since then EG has gone 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 3rd. That's some really damn good consistency for this level of play. There's a reason EG is favored to win every single tournament even this far from tI5 - their consistency in reaching 1/2/3 rankings in tournaments is unmatched. | ||
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scorpkx
Australia19 Posts
On March 08 2016 18:48 Atoissen wrote: Im not sure if I want to support a team thats only 100% focused 1 time a year... I want them to win every tournament they enter. Even tho top3 finish is a good performance, I dont think the way they went out was ok. Theier play was not good enough, and I definatly dont think ppd's draft was good enough in the last couple of series. If anyone can give me some comforting words about progression that I didnt see, this is the time guys i think you really have to consider the challenges facing EG. First when was the last time EG went into a tournament as underdogs or without a huge target on their backs. teams are fucking stupid if they approach EG without studying them hard first, from drafting to gameplay, I mean look back at frankfurt, OG literally had mapped out rtz's farming pattern on AM before their match and therefore could gank him so easily. it is not easy to be the best when everyone consistently targets you and you have to always be on guard. it is exhausting and EG take on that challenge really well in my opinion. Secondly, this is a team that won TI. traditionally teams tend to look really unstable or completely fall off after making the big bucks. even ppd spoke about how tempting it is to become complacent after winning a tournament as stressful, exhausting and rewarding as an $18M prize pool TI. but EG haven't grown complacent and their results show it, they are still the favourites against every opponent they face (aside fom secret, and even then). I don't think they are as hungry as they were before ti5 but i don't blame them. again they face this challenge well. Thirdly, aside from DAC, EG didn't win anything before TI5 and look how they performed there. past results don't mean anything for a team like EG. you won the last tournament, great lets win the next. you lost the last tournament, learn from it and let's win the next one. for EG it is all about the long run. also like someone said earlier, they are improving with each tournament. at shanghai especially the biggest improvement i saw was their team fight coordination. just go back to MDL and compare how EG was team fighting then and how they are team fighting now, they are worlds apart. last major they improved on getting fear comfortable on the 4 position and finding a balance for rtz and sumail on the same team. it is all progress that will eventually culminate (hopefully) in a TI6 victory. finally EG's lowest lows are not really that low overall (only six below top 3 placements in almost the last 18 months) and their highest highs are relatively high (they have taken some pretty big wins). even secret (who is on par with EG) can't claim that. | ||
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Harpoon
Philippines93 Posts
On March 06 2016 14:19 whattheHEKman wrote: I think ppd gets caught in a loop when drafting occasionally. He feels a certain hero is really strong and because it isn't banned, he will continue to pick it (dark seer happens to be the hero in this tourney). When you draft the same (high skilled/wombo combo) heroes every game, it makes it easier for opposing teams to draft around it. That being said, I agree Artour and Sumail are clashing in the farm department, but I personally think it is because Sumail can't play any of the current mid heroes well. This isn't the same dominating Sumail we have seen in the past. His invoker is lackluster for the most part, ember has fallen out of the mid meta, TA apparently isn't worth picking, storm is obviously garbage, lina and qop are decent but ppd apparently thinks they're more trash tier than pugna (lol game 3 vs secret). Disappointing end to the major for EG considering we barely picked the Void/mirana/clinkz combo that worked so well in previous games, the bounty/nature's prophet combo etc etc. And last picking naga in a series decider match with a jungler is just... ppd pls. His heroes nor his game aren't the problem, but he is put in a situation where it's hard for him to snowball. EG should've learned a thing or two from those Secret games in the grandfinals and how Puppey utilizes jungling heroes (Doom , Ench) to roam very early with great success (while not sacrificing too much of his farm). | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On March 08 2016 18:52 Pandemona wrote: True a team like Evil Geniuses should be winning alot more than the odd lan and not doing well in the big big tourney. But it will all be fine if they become first back2back TI champions and what not. The only thing i can say is this season has been a let's try and find a way to play for the last few months. EG look better and better every LAN for me but of course they still have not won anything big as of late. It is hard though hmm. Manilla no worries, lets believe. EG have time off now until the Major which is there only next LAN event. there's an event in europe no? dotapit? | ||
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Voronoff
United States302 Posts
On March 08 2016 18:48 Atoissen wrote: Im not sure if I want to support a team thats only 100% focused 1 time a year... I want them to win every tournament they enter. Even tho top3 finish is a good performance, I dont think the way they went out was ok. Theier play was not good enough, and I definatly dont think ppd's draft was good enough in the last couple of series. If anyone can give me some comforting words about progression that I didnt see, this is the time guys Then you will never have a team to support. No team is going to win every tournament they enter. EG is amazingly consistent, though, and as close as you can get to that without constantly bandwagoning to teams on a hot streak. The elimination game was defined by them getting caught off guard by a pheonix level 1 courier snipe on bottle-first mid. As much as people have attacked the draft, I think it may have been fine had they had a chance to play it without a huge immediate disadvantage from gameplay. This particular meta has been pretty bad for them, and they've still performed well. A patch that makes mid greedier/safer and offlane + 4 the playmakers could make them nigh-unstoppable for a bit. | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On March 09 2016 15:58 Voronoff wrote: Then you will never have a team to support. No team is going to win every tournament they enter. EG is amazingly consistent, though, and as close as you can get to that without constantly bandwagoning to teams on a hot streak. The elimination game was defined by them getting caught off guard by a pheonix level 1 courier snipe on bottle-first mid. As much as people have attacked the draft, I think it may have been fine had they had a chance to play it without a huge immediate disadvantage from gameplay. This particular meta has been pretty bad for them, and they've still performed well. A patch that makes mid greedier/safer and offlane + 4 the playmakers could make them nigh-unstoppable for a bit. 100% this , i can't understand the fans that have ANY issues with the results from EG , the team is the best in the world for a while now no fail tournaments , no slumps , just good solid (sometimes amazing) dota .... the gap is not that big between the top teams if anything i feel EG are doing well beyond anything you can expect the best team to do.....of course you would want them to win "every tournament they enter" , and I'm sure the players want to win as well , you saying they might not be focused is a BS statement , they came as ready as they can to the Major and just came out bit short. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Ah yes i just seen. Not long to go until that either, looks an interesting quick paced lan with beautiful European times :D | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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Atoissen
Norway1737 Posts
On March 09 2016 17:09 bluzi wrote: 100% this , i can't understand the fans that have ANY issues with the results from EG , the team is the best in the world for a while now no fail tournaments , no slumps , just good solid (sometimes amazing) dota .... the gap is not that big between the top teams if anything i feel EG are doing well beyond anything you can expect the best team to do.....of course you would want them to win "every tournament they enter" , and I'm sure the players want to win as well , you saying they might not be focused is a BS statement , they came as ready as they can to the Major and just came out bit short. I dont want to come off as an asshole, but I understand that I might... Both in business or in top level sports, only winning is good enough. And I am 100% sure that just as me, all of the 5 guys in EG both have issues with theier results and performances after the major(s). And if they came a bit short in 2 of 3 majors in the years, wich has a price of 1m US dollars... I would say they arent focused enough, and drafting pugna and naga in a game deciding match while also giving away NP every game vrs Liquid, or first picking Enigma... Thats just bad imo (But I am also a bad dota palyer, might be something I dont understand) Sorry for my bad english ranting  Im actually a nice guy... And while I acknowledge that EG have performed good and even great at times, I dont think they have been at theier best, and I wouldnt be ranting if I saw them doing theier best and lose. | ||
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goody153
44273 Posts
Even the the aui iteration had worse results than the current EG like getting kicked out of the tournament from the group stages not even making to the playoffs kicked by some garbage t2 EU team and that's was TI winning EG roster. I mean think about Secret even if they won Shanghai they had some really mediocre results post-franknut. No need to expect them to be perfect cause no iteration of the roster has ever had a flawless run. They are even very consistent with top 3 places in all tournament, and it's not like they are going old c9 where they are always the 2nd best team. | ||
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Atoissen
Norway1737 Posts
On March 09 2016 18:22 goody153 wrote: Even the first iteration of EG the SADBOYS with mason and the second one with fear didn't win every goddamn tournament. They got stomped or lost some finals and they won some finals. Even the the aui iteration had worse results than the current EG like getting kicked out of the tournament from the group stages not even making to the playoffs kicked by some garbage t2 EU team and that's was TI winning EG roster. I mean think about Secret even if they won Shanghai they had some really mediocre results post-franknut. No need to expect them to be perfect cause no iteration of the roster has ever had a flawless run. They are even very consistent with top 3 places in all tournament, and it's not like they are going old c9 where they are always the 2nd best team. Im not sure if ur answering me, but I want to say that we agree on this. Even tho EG won TI5 with Aui, I also think this version of EG is better then the old ones. I think this team has the highest potential of any EG team ever. And thats the point im trying to make... They are good, but they should be performing better And no, I dont think they should win every tournament, I know thats almost impossible... But I must admit, I expected them to atleast win one of the Majors so far... or atleast be in a finals... or not lose to OG, Secret and Liquid in stupid ways... | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
it's hard to know what's been happening in mid lane for sumail for the past few events, its felt like it's been forever since he's put his harness on and carried his team around. the drafts in shanghai have been highly technical, and evidently easy to punish, which is what i love to see from a high caliber team. it's a shame with the glaring miscontrols with no grave mid, etc. perhaps the game plays out differently. again, hard to tell. i don't have dozens of replays of sumail mid, let alone in competitive. what i think though is that if they do what everyone else is doing, they can do it better, no problem. perhaps they give too much respect to the other teams, or it just doesn't fit their current playstyle very well, who knows. what i saw at least a quarter of the time at shanghai was some cute and new stuff which unfortunately did not work this time around. | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On March 09 2016 18:03 Atoissen wrote: I dont want to come off as an asshole, but I understand that I might... Both in business or in top level sports, only winning is good enough. And I am 100% sure that just as me, all of the 5 guys in EG both have issues with theier results and performances after the major(s). And if they came a bit short in 2 of 3 majors in the years, wich has a price of 1m US dollars... I would say they arent focused enough, and drafting pugna and naga in a game deciding match while also giving away NP every game vrs Liquid, or first picking Enigma... Thats just bad imo (But I am also a bad dota palyer, might be something I dont understand) Sorry for my bad english ranting Im actually a nice guy... And while I acknowledge that EG have performed good and even great at times, I dont think they have been at theier best, and I wouldnt be ranting if I saw them doing theier best and lose.Your english is better then mine ,I think they did their best and lost , PPD is the best drafter and didn't become a bad drafter (as you claim) all of a sudden , they had a plan vs NP as everyone knew coming in that this hero will be played a lot , it didn't work as planned. You somehow believe that if they play their best it will be enough to win vs everyone no matter the patch/draft , which is what makes you a fan but reality is , its not the case , they do need certain things to go their way to be able to win a TI or a major , there is a reason no team has won it twice , its that hard. | ||
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