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On October 30 2012 05:23 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 03:23 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 01:25 Cubu wrote:On October 30 2012 01:08 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 00:57 Cubu wrote:On October 29 2012 06:48 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote:
I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating. Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years). There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread). But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities. You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games. Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality. well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from. But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually. If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates. As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes. Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable. Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
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On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
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Just for the people that were like, dont do this guy, you are probably terrible and wont get into a competetive team ever, or to the ones saying the he was on NTH but he droped with the team...
NTH Roster
Jonathan "Loda" Berg
Joakim "Akke" Akterhall
Jacky "EternaLEnVy" Mao
Henrik "AdmiralBulldog" Ahnberg
Gustav "s4" Magnusson
Sounds like the guy was actually good. Judging if joining a pro team and living the dream worth or not the years of your life, is a different point. Hope the guy enjoys his time and make some actual money if possible 
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I was thinking of taking a break from school also to try and pursue streaming and see if I could get a foothold within the community. But then I realized that doing that is really difficult. I mean I can't even pull off more than 10 viewers right now and I stream pretty much every day for around 4-6 hours. I really have no idea how to get a good sized audience for streaming right now. I really wish that I had a decent computer back when streaming games was really new. Good luck in your endeavor though
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On October 31 2012 07:41 QQKachoo wrote:I was thinking of taking a break from school also to try and pursue streaming and see if I could get a foothold within the community. But then I realized that doing that is really difficult. I mean I can't even pull off more than 10 viewers right now and I stream pretty much every day for around 4-6 hours. I really have no idea how to get a good sized audience for streaming right now. I really wish that I had a decent computer back when streaming games was really new. Good luck in your endeavor though
well I dont know you so maybe you are already there =) but the first thing you need to do is make yourself a good enough dota player (elite) for people to watch
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On October 30 2012 23:38 Brainling wrote:
So let me get this straight...if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? So I guess professional athletes are sociopaths?
And eSports is on the rise. StarCraft players and many LoL players are already making livable salaries, and Dota 2 isn't far behind.
Basically, MotherOfRunes might as well have said "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to get up on this soap box and tell you how to live your life, even though I know nothing about you, nothing about your situation, nothing about the job market in north American, nothing about engineering or how it works...really I don't know a lot, but let me preach to you"...and it would have read exactly the same way.
And how dare you tell someone to rethink what they want out of life, implying that this isn't it, and somehow you would know better? You have to be a special kind of fool to think it's your place to tell others what they want out of life.
roflmao its cool how aggressive people react when you speak out the unspeakable. and it seems u didnt make the effort reading my post accurate, so i wont bother reading yours accuratly either. oh but if i understand you right you would think its ok if a person commits suicide, if its the thing that would make the person REALLY happy. some people really think suicide would make them happy, like there are people outthere who think sitting 24/7 infront of the pc is what makes em happy (which btw is a kind of long term suicide for your health if you dont do anything to balance it out)
and its also very amusing how naiv you are in terms of esports and salaries. who cares if you earn enough money to live from it when it only lasts 4 years and after that you stand in life with nothing.
also your sentence "..if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? " makes me really laugh since its the best proof you didnt bother readin my post well....i never said that, try to read my post again....speaking of talking about something you have no idea about (of which you accused me), you have no idea about how much i hate our monetary society and how people become more and more stupid by that.
but gamers like you and many others are not mature enough to realize the social danger you put yourself into by doing that.
and i still dont understand why people would "abandon" the real world, with all its beauty in it for this virtual imposter. having "friends" you talk with everyday over skype while gaming with them allday is not the same as having real friends with who you really meet FACE TO FACE, making a real connection. but like i said (yes i repeat it for you because it seems you didnt read) " normally it indicates sociopaths" so lets break this down: "normally" its your native language do i really have to explain to you how this word works? same goes for "indicates" to indicate is something far from proving.
so why do you twist the words in my mouth? angry gamer is angry
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On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about.
for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post
really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
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On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
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On November 01 2012 00:27 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc". Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
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Social danger is relative. While there are things that are absolute and objective, happiness and satisfaction is mostly relative and subjective.
It all depends on the person, Pursuing a gaming career is not better than Pursuing a normal career and vice-versa. I don't even see why we need to go into long discussions about this =\
But anyway, 'grats to eternal envy. Loved watching NTH play
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Wow, to play on the same team as Akke and Loda! Envy looked a bit crazy when he first made his post, but now I realize that he is quite damn good at what he's doing, and he likes it too.
Mad props to you man
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On November 01 2012 00:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:27 hmsrenown wrote:On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc". Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least. easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play. and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
Like I said, come up with more convincing arguments please, and use proper examples.
Pursuing gaming while one is young isn't all bad. It would be particularly hard if someone is taking out a loan for school, is already working a job to support himself through engineering program, etc. etc. But from all the inference, I have to think that my fellow Torontonian is in a much much better position than what I just said. One more factor to consider is the skill level of the person. In this case, I happen to think there is a bright future for him with NTH. Sponsorship and tournament success may be more probable than not in this case.
Thus, on a case-by-case basis on both personal background and ability to succeed, I have to think in this case it is not too bad of an idea. In addition, going through the regime for a summer as a trial run could be good. If this "summer job" doesn't work, he can still go back to school and finish his degree without any delay at all.
My conclusion is there is certainly risk, but it is VERY manageable in OP's case. Therefore, I think some comments are overly harsh in this scenario.
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On October 31 2012 23:40 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 23:38 Brainling wrote:
So let me get this straight...if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? So I guess professional athletes are sociopaths?
And eSports is on the rise. StarCraft players and many LoL players are already making livable salaries, and Dota 2 isn't far behind.
Basically, MotherOfRunes might as well have said "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to get up on this soap box and tell you how to live your life, even though I know nothing about you, nothing about your situation, nothing about the job market in north American, nothing about engineering or how it works...really I don't know a lot, but let me preach to you"...and it would have read exactly the same way.
And how dare you tell someone to rethink what they want out of life, implying that this isn't it, and somehow you would know better? You have to be a special kind of fool to think it's your place to tell others what they want out of life. roflmao its cool how aggressive people react when you speak out the unspeakable. and it seems u didnt make the effort reading my post accurate, so i wont bother reading yours accuratly either. oh but if i understand you right you would think its ok if a person commits suicide, if its the thing that would make the person REALLY happy. some people really think suicide would make them happy, like there are people outthere who think sitting 24/7 infront of the pc is what makes em happy (which btw is a kind of long term suicide for your health if you dont do anything to balance it out) and its also very amusing how naiv you are in terms of esports and salaries. who cares if you earn enough money to live from it when it only lasts 4 years and after that you stand in life with nothing. also your sentence "..if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? " makes me really laugh since its the best proof you didnt bother readin my post well....i never said that, try to read my post again....speaking of talking about something you have no idea about (of which you accused me), you have no idea about how much i hate our monetary society and how people become more and more stupid by that. but gamers like you and many others are not mature enough to realize the social danger you put yourself into by doing that. and i still dont understand why people would "abandon" the real world, with all its beauty in it for this virtual imposter. having "friends" you talk with everyday over skype while gaming with them allday is not the same as having real friends with who you really meet FACE TO FACE, making a real connection. but like i said (yes i repeat it for you because it seems you didnt read) " normally it indicates sociopaths" so lets break this down: "normally" its your native language do i really have to explain to you how this word works? same goes for "indicates" to indicate is something far from proving. so why do you twist the words in my mouth? angry gamer is angry
I think the person you're trying to have an argument with is winning simply because he has a clue about how to format a text.
GZ to Envy for reacing his goal.
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GL at DreamHack! Playing with Loda and Akke, that's awesome !
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On November 01 2012 00:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:27 hmsrenown wrote:On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc". Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least. easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play. and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
You do know that Nazgul playing poker for money and went to Korea to play BW right?...... Yes he created something else as his living but he too quote un-quote threw away part of his "life". Go get in your M3 and leave this forum sir. Doesn't matter if he made it not sitting infront of a computer all day but it comprised a majority of it especially during his broodwar stinct you don't get good at broodwar(or starcraft 2 or dota for that matter) going to partys.
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Going pro is not that easy or magical, if we all could do it and be great we would do it. The thing is if you get really good at dota 2 you need a team to compete with.
Long run earnings with college degree> long run earnings without a college degree.
Dota 2 looks cool if you win it but that is hard to do and you need a team to take care of you, better to be semi pro and go to school take a lighter load of classes and play your heart out and if you get on a team you can decide what u want to do. QXC sc 2 pro got his degree then went full time pro, if sc 2 career dies he has his degree to get a real job.
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On November 01 2012 03:44 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On November 01 2012 00:27 hmsrenown wrote:On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc". Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least. easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play. and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right Like I said, come up with more convincing arguments please, and use proper examples. Pursuing gaming while one is young isn't all bad. It would be particularly hard if someone is taking out a loan for school, is already working a job to support himself through engineering program, etc. etc. But from all the inference, I have to think that my fellow Torontonian is in a much much better position than what I just said. One more factor to consider is the skill level of the person. In this case, I happen to think there is a bright future for him with NTH. Sponsorship and tournament success may be more probable than not in this case. Thus, on a case-by-case basis on both personal background and ability to succeed, I have to think in this case it is not too bad of an idea. In addition, going through the regime for a summer as a trial run could be good. If this "summer job" doesn't work, he can still go back to school and finish his degree without any delay at all. My conclusion is there is certainly risk, but it is VERY manageable in OP's case. Therefore, I think some comments are overly harsh in this scenario.
i was speaking general while the op already accomplished the first steps, which makes me happy for him. nothing was really directed towards him alone
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On October 31 2012 06:06 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 05:23 Brainling wrote:On October 30 2012 03:23 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 01:25 Cubu wrote:On October 30 2012 01:08 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 00:57 Cubu wrote:On October 29 2012 06:48 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote:
I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating. Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years). There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread). But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities. You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games. Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality. well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from. But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually. If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates. As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes. Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable. Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere. You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime. This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it. (I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
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On October 31 2012 23:51 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:14 how2TL wrote:On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote:
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe).
and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible.
and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world? What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world? What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world? Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy. At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed. the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully. its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc. and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
If a person just enjoys playing and creating music alone, what's wrong with that? It's possible to be successful purely online, at least in certain genres. Also there are many professions where people 'sit alone in their room all the time all year'. Take a writer for example.
I understand what's at the root of these kind of criticisms. When you are young it can feel that games are the only world that matters - but when you go out into the world of work, relationships, finances and responsibilities, you get a much healthier perspective. So yes, it's important to learn about the rest of life 
But once you know that world, can't you still decide you'd prefer to take the route of your passions？ I've been in the working world for a few years out of university, and I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that doing what I love would make me happier than doing what is safe and financially secure - and I don't think that's immature. A tonne of studies show that happiness doesn't rise with income once you hit a certain (fairly low) threshold; you just get caught on a hedonic treadmill, buying more and more expensive things that you don't truly need.
If your dream is to have a family, that's a different story - you need to provide for them.
(btw, I don't want to be a pro gamer )
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On November 01 2012 08:19 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:06 iEchoic wrote:On October 30 2012 05:23 Brainling wrote:On October 30 2012 03:23 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 01:25 Cubu wrote:On October 30 2012 01:08 Heh_ wrote:On October 30 2012 00:57 Cubu wrote:On October 29 2012 06:48 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote:
I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating. Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years). There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread). But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities. You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games. Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality. well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from. But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually. If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates. As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes. Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable. Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere. You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime. This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it. (I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here) Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
i think he means with inflation, but i still disagree with his views and premise.
the world is random, you can make a plan for your entire life, or be opportunistic and strive for success in what you love.
him being a pro dota player will inadvertently shape and present different opportunities than beginning his cubicle life earlier. not to say this will affect his opportunities positively, but i just love iechoic's mindset.
that mindset lets me profit off of millions of sheep who think the only way to live in this world is to get a 9-5 job they dont give a shit about and live their life outside it.
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EPT
