Due to parents, I've decided to delay this till mid April. Thanks a lot everyone, but now I'll have more time to do more indepth research. However, I would like to have more input. The neat thing about this thread is that I'm getting a lot of suggestions that an computer noob like me has yet to consider.
END EDIT
Hello, I am a shut in kid from Canada who doesn't know anything but Math, Science, random shit, anime, and video games. I made this thread in order to get some help but first let me explain the situation:
My IGN is EternaLEnVy in HoN and DotA and my SC2 name is YanagiNagi. I have not played SC2 since July, and HoN since August of 2010. I played DotA for a few weeks in August of this year but haven't really played seriously since probably mid 2008. I played mid solo for DWi (Deal With It) and was rank 2 on the ladder for a few months in HoN. I won one major tournament under this team and placed fairly high in every other. I believe this team is called Complexity now. I was rank 2 in DotA Cash Tier 2 (under Aisaka_Taiga) while I was messing around for a few weeks in august but I doubt that actually matters.
OK SO ENOUGH OF THAT HERE IS THE SITUATION:
I'm a 2nd year Engineering Science Student at the University of Toronto. It's basically this extremely fucking retarded course that destroys your soul:
Although I'm doing decently in this program (low 80 average ish), I've decided that before starting the 2nd half of 2nd year, to go on "leave" and start playing DotA seriously. Basically I can come back to school if I fail miserably. To make money I plan on streaming (10-13 hours a day every day), coaching (not sure how this works), and winning tournaments. If I end up failing miserably in gaming I can go back to school.
HERE ARE MY CONCERNS: 1. Streaming. Where do I stream? I was originally thinking of Justin.TV but then I heard of a site called Own3d from my friend that apparently pays better. I would appreciate it if anyone could compare these two sites for me.
My second concern in streaming is in money. On Justin.TV you get $0.002 for every ad you show a viewer, so basically $2 for every ad given 1000 viewers. Some people have further extrapolated this to 4 games/hour in SC2 and thus $8 every hour. This worries me because DotA games last much longer, probably would take 45minutes on average to find a game, pick, and play. I'm also not too sure about the math being used here, do people really only show one ad after every game? Say I show an ad after I finish a game and another b4 my 2nd game starts, would this be frowned upon? I don't watch DotA 2 streams so if anyone could tell me how it works that would be great.
2. Canada Sucks Streaming in Canada fucking sucks. Our internet is overpriced and we don't get enough bandwidth or options. But honestly I know nothing about any of this stuff so I'm here to get input. I'm willing to pay more for better internet service but I'm stuck with Rogers for another 2 years I believe due to a contract. What internet speed do I need to play while streaming and not lag. How much bandwidth would I need to stream 12 hours per day every day for a month. And if possible, help me choose a plan that would be able to solve this issue. I also hear that you could call up rogers and make a deal with them, if anyone knows anything about this please comment.
Those two are my main concerns other than personal ones. If anyone knows anything else I should look into, please comment on that as well. I could probably do some more research of my own but its exam period and I need to make this choice before the end of the semester, so I apologize if it feels like I'm leeching too much.
Thanks for your help.
EDIT:
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS NOT TO CONVINCE ME OF STAYING IN SCHOOL. You have no right to judge me because you know nothing about what I've considered. It is unfair to criticize someone's judgement that they took many hours considering on whim. Please don't derail the thread.
If you intend to continue anyway, please understand that I CAN GO BACK TO SCHOOL if I fail. It's only a year or two of my life. My financial issues aren't so bad that these two years would cost my life.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
And miss out on him, possibly, becoming a great player? The scene needs great players, there is a chance we might have one in him. Hurr-durr you should do school... hurr-durr you should be a responsible human being... where the fuck is the enjoyment of life in that. As long as you do not limit your options to only being the best / or suicide... I wish you luck in your future career, be it as a Dota player -- or an engineer.
ive played with u before in dotacash. you're quite good who am i to judge about ur plans so anyways
1) i'd go with justin.tv, its better and easier for viewers than own3d. i have heard of making money off of ads by streaming but i dont know how it works (how does the money reach me, etc)
2)sorry, i dont know much about internet either, but i think you should be able to stream with good quality regardless of living in canada.
I have clear reasons as to why I'm doing this. I did not make this thread so that people could change my mind. I just haven't stated my reasons in order to keep the thread concise, plus its not really necessary in order to answer my concerns. I don't really think you can judge me based on what I've written here, though it does make me seem like a geek (which I am), it by no means shows that I'm unhappy.
I don't think you can judge people by your own standards. Plus, I've considered, and reconsidered many many times, this is not a spur of the moment thing I'm planning here. It's because I want to pursue what I love that I'm doing this.
I posted this topic here (not in dota websites) because I believe that many people on TL know that being a pro-gamer isn't just some thing that retarded kids pursue, that it can have a future. I really hope other people don't respond the way you did.
You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
On December 10 2011 11:29 s2pid_loser wrote: ive played with u before in dotacash. you're quite good who am i to judge about ur plans so anyways
1) i'd go with justin.tv, its better and easier for viewers than own3d. i have heard of making money off of ads by streaming but i dont know how it works (how does the money reach me, etc)
2)sorry, i dont know much about internet either, but i think you should be able to stream with good quality regardless of living in canada.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
And miss out on him, possibly, becoming a great player? The scene needs great players, there is a chance we might have one in him. Hurr-durr you should do school... hurr-durr you should be a responsible human being... where the fuck is the enjoyment of life in that. As long as you do not limit your options to only being the best / or suicide... I wish you luck in your future career, be it as a Dota player -- or an engineer.
Yeah totally. If you're responsible, you can never have fun.
On December 10 2011 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
I rather not deal with these type of posts but at least you've put thought into it so I will.
Please understand that the 12 hours for a month was all I needed to get cap level, when ever there was a new level cap I played 16-20 hours a day in order to get it first, and this is while skipping high school. There's no point in playing any longer right if there's nothing to do. What makes me think I'll get more than 100 viewers is that other HoN pros have over 1k, and I was at there level before I quit. Whether my personality is fit for streaming is for me to decide.
You only think of Engineering as a profession for money. Making a lot of money is not what concerns me, as long as I can make a decent living I'll be fine.
But to be perfectly honest, I am extremely confident in my gaming if I play seriously. Everything I've accomplished in HoN and other games was while maintaining a 95 average in school. But I'm not here to show off.
I can add a lot more details into my analysis of why I want to do this (I'm an engineer right...?) but I'm not going to. Everything you said I've obviously considered, none of it strikes the eye at all. I believe that I deserve enough respect that people should not be able to judge me at least based on what I've written.
On December 10 2011 11:29 s2pid_loser wrote: ive played with u before in dotacash. you're quite good who am i to judge about ur plans so anyways
1) i'd go with justin.tv, its better and easier for viewers than own3d. i have heard of making money off of ads by streaming but i dont know how it works (how does the money reach me, etc)
2)sorry, i dont know much about internet either, but i think you should be able to stream with good quality regardless of living in canada.
Thanks, can you elaborate on your first point?
justin.tv allows u to choose the quality to watch so ppl can watch it at 360p or higher depending on their own internet so thats better than own3d which only has HD or non HD
also, streaming games through justin.tv allows you to use twitch.tv for better publicity
On December 10 2011 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
I rather not deal with these type of posts but at least you've put thought into it so I will.
Please understand that the 12 hours for a month was all I needed to get cap level, when ever there was a new level cap I played 16-20 hours a day in order to get it first, and this is while skipping high school. There's no point in playing any longer right if there's nothing to do. What makes me think I'll get more than 100 viewers is that other HoN pros have over 1k, and I was at there level before I quit. Whether my personality is fit for streaming is for me to decide.
You only think of Engineering as a profession for money. Making a lot of money is not what concerns me, as long as I can make a decent living I'll be fine.
But to be perfectly honest, I am extremely confident in my gaming if I play seriously. Everything I've accomplished in HoN and other games was while maintaining a 95 average in school. But I'm not here to show off.
I can add a lot more details into my analysis of why I want to do this (I'm an engineer right...?) but I'm not going to. Everything you said I've obviously considered, none of it strikes the eye at all. I believe that I deserve enough respect that people should not be able to judge me at least based on what I've written.
Well, good luck to you then. Unfortunately, I have no information on streaming. I hope you succeed!
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
Expecting everybody else in the world to value only the same things that you value is quite ridiculous, many successful people didn't finish university, and there are many people who finish university that still don't do very well after it. It also sounds like the course he is doing would make anybody extremely unhappy, so I think it's perfectly reasonable and actually quite intelligent for him to take leave from the course and try doing something that can earn him a living as well as actually make him happy about his life.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
And miss out on him, possibly, becoming a great player? The scene needs great players, there is a chance we might have one in him. Hurr-durr you should do school... hurr-durr you should be a responsible human being... where the fuck is the enjoyment of life in that. As long as you do not limit your options to only being the best / or suicide... I wish you luck in your future career, be it as a Dota player -- or an engineer.
Yeah totally. If you're responsible, you can never have fun.
False dichotomies make me so sad.
Being a clever fellow I am sure that You realised that the term "responsible" was used as a direct nod to the poster(s) before me, who all cried the same thing: you are a fool, go back to school. Aye that was the "responsible" course of action here . . . did it look as if OP was "having fun"?
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
And miss out on him, possibly, becoming a great player? The scene needs great players, there is a chance we might have one in him. Hurr-durr you should do school... hurr-durr you should be a responsible human being... where the fuck is the enjoyment of life in that. As long as you do not limit your options to only being the best / or suicide... I wish you luck in your future career, be it as a Dota player -- or an engineer.
Yeah totally. If you're responsible, you can never have fun.
False dichotomies make me so sad.
Being a clever fellow I am sure that You realised that the term "responsible" was used as a direct nod to the poster(s) before me, who all cried the same thing: you are a fool, go back to school. Aye that was the "responsible" course of action here . . . did it look as if OP was "having fun"?
Right because other, more responsible, options (like doing this after he completes his degree, rather than quitting school) couldn't lead to any fun in the future. It just has to be right now.
But I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'm going to leave it alone and wish you a good night.
On December 10 2011 11:29 s2pid_loser wrote: ive played with u before in dotacash. you're quite good who am i to judge about ur plans so anyways
1) i'd go with justin.tv, its better and easier for viewers than own3d. i have heard of making money off of ads by streaming but i dont know how it works (how does the money reach me, etc)
2)sorry, i dont know much about internet either, but i think you should be able to stream with good quality regardless of living in canada.
Thanks, can you elaborate on your first point?
justin.tv allows u to choose the quality to watch so ppl can watch it at 360p or higher depending on their own internet so thats better than own3d which only has HD or non HD
also, streaming games through justin.tv allows you to use twitch.tv for better publicity
This is false. own3d has the same settings for displayed resolution as twitch.tv. Own3d.tv also pays much higher rates to its partners and is always working for both the US and EU region, unlike twitch, which is why regular non-tournament streamers have much higher viewer counts on own3d.
If you're a top dawg and you meet the twitch.tv executive guys at lans they'll buy you hookers and drugs tho. So pick your favorite between the two.
This was quite an obnoxious read. You seem to be quite the narcistic character, confidence is one thing but having it too much is just annoying.
Also the others are right, you should never leave school for gaming unless you are already having success at that moment. It's a terrible choice to leave school with the expectation that you will do well and make enough money with streaming. If you don't like your education, go do something else or finish it and then go do something else but this entire plan is just rediculous. This bragging about engsci is also just plain annoying
On December 10 2011 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
60k a year is pretty shit for all the shit engineers have to go through. science sucks shit in the US/canada most people think science is not worth it because they're inherently unintelligent, i wanted to become a physics major but i know i can make like 10x more money if i become a CPA.
i say more power to you OP, you only have 1 life to live why not live it in the way that makes you happy?
The streaming platform does not matter right now to be honest. As far as I know( and there isn't really anyway to clarify because many streamers are under NDA), those "special rates" are only offered by own3d tv to really special people who attract thousands of people ( Destiny, League of Legends players). Focus more on which you think will be your target audience and get the viewers numbers up first. In general, Twitch is better for NA and Owned is better for Europe. They are both improving though. When you are big and attract ten of thousands people, these people from Twitch and Owned will contact you and offer you special rates.
Don't worry about that right now to be honest. The money is really insignificant anyway if you have less than 1k viewers and considering that Link/Mania/Dendi/Demon/ doesn't even get that many, i don't know if any Dota streamer can right now. Especially because it's so convenient to watch from the in game client. Then again, maybe you can have personality like Destiny that will attract a lot of people. I wish you good luck.
If you need help streaming, just go twitch and contact The Gunrun. Basically the man does magic and has helped A LOT of Pros. And you don't even really need very high bandwidth /upload anyway. You just need the proper settings.
You're going to have to get unlimited bandwidth or something. IF you have capped internet, which you most likely do, there's no way you can stream at decent quality. And if you cant stream in good quality, no one's going to watch.
Also, do you have a team? I wouldn't even consider doing anything before that. You're not going anywhere in DotA without a good team.
On December 10 2011 12:22 Markwerf wrote: This was quite an obnoxious read. You seem to be quite the narcistic character, confidence is one thing but having it too much is just annoying.
Also the others are right, you should never leave school for gaming unless you are already having success at that moment. It's a terrible choice to leave school with the expectation that you will do well and make enough money with streaming. If you don't like your education, go do something else or finish it and then go do something else but this entire plan is just rediculous. This bragging about engsci is also just plain annoying
I don't think I was bragging at all. If I had real pride in being an eng sci and stuff would I really give it up? I didn't mean anything like that. I only posted the video bcuz it was funny, not too sure if its a good thing or bad but that people are taking this post extremely seriously.
I agree that this plan is ridiculous, I don't think any other gamer has ever done this but I don't care, I've thought about it more than everyone here put together and I've decided that its what I want to do, or at least try. Keep in mind that I can come back to school if I fail.
On December 10 2011 12:35 Fishgle wrote: You're going to have to get unlimited bandwidth or something. IF you have capped internet, which you most likely do, there's no way you can stream at decent quality. And if you cant stream in good quality, no one's going to watch.
Also, do you have a team? I wouldn't even consider doing anything before that. You're not going anywhere in DotA without a good team.
I don't have unlimited bandwidth but I don't mind paying extra money in order to get it. The issue is that I live in Canada, it may be literally unreachable. If I lived in the US I'm sure I can throw some money and get bandwidth but sadly the issue is a bit more complicated and I'm retarded so that's why this thread was made.
As for a team, honestly any team that would take me as I am now is not worth my time. It's not a matter if me being too good or anything, but just how good I have to be. If I'm not one of the best, I may as well give up, and so I don't want a team that would take me for my current skill level. Once DotA 2 starts, I'm sure many people will be driven to play more and a team can be formed then. One reason as to why I've decided to do this now and not after I get my degree is that it's impossible for me to compete with them once I give them time. I can practice retardedly hard but I'm not too sure how talented I really am. That's why I've decided that I need to do this now, i rather give up 1-2 years of my life and realize I can't accomplish anything then regret this for the rest of my life.
Because no matter how old I get, Jaedong and those other gamers are the ones I respect most.
taking risks is part of life. i wouldnt be one to be like you. Reading the comments about you being a really skilled player, i dont think chances are that low as others make it. gl2u
no one will watch you play dota, if you have dota 2 maybe but dota isn't a streamable game, if it was Demon would stream a lot more often. reread see you have the beta, do you have any connections? if not then good luck. being #2 in Tier2 is pretty bad just saying...
I have a hard time grasping my skill because I've never taken gaming that seriously literally (I kind of have but something always stops me for doing it for too long, school, etc.).
I was top 30 in NA (league IHL ORIGINAL) like a century ago when I was still like 14-15 or something. And then I was trolling in stupid leagues like DcL being rank 1 for like 4 seasons and shit but that doesn't tell me anything. I only played HoN for lols but when I hit 2000 psr I was like, meh, what the hell, let's play some tournys. And sadly, even if I was one of the best in HoN, that's HoN, and I personally think top DotA > top HoN. Also when I played DotA during this year's august I played some really shitty league called DotA Cash where I was rank 2 but real pros make fun of others for playing that league >_>.
so ?? ? ? ? ?
Edit: fuck I wanted to quote Kenpachi, I don't use forums much .
On December 10 2011 12:24 Silidons wrote: 60k a year is pretty shit for all the shit engineers have to go through. science sucks shit in the US/canada most people think science is not worth it because they're inherently unintelligent, i wanted to become a physics major but i know i can make like 10x more money if i become a CPA.
i say more power to you OP, you only have 1 life to live why not live it in the way that makes you happy?
Where do you get your figures from? ~60k STARTING salary is decent for an engineer compared to the 40k that an accountant would get until they get their CPA which is another year or two of busting their ass, at which point they still make less than the engineer. I worked as an engineer for 4 years and I made well above 60k by the time I changed jobs. Physics is certainly not something you do for the money.
I agree with your point that you only have one life, but disagree that doing this will make the OP happy in the long run. One failure scenario described here is that things don't go well for a year or two and then you can go back to school. That's a pretty decent safety net and if that's all you had to worry about, by all means you should take a shot. The scenario I would be worried about is when you have committed ~5 years or so into becoming a progamer and you are starting to fall from your top form. At that point it would be much more difficult to go back to school and get a degree, presumably because your leave of absence won't be valid for such a long period and you would also feel committed to eSports due to the time you've committed to that career track. At the same time you will see less and less sponsorships due to dwindling skills.
I encourage you to make your own decision but if you are only thinking 2-3 years ahead you're being a bit myopic and immature. Perhaps you've thought about it through a longer period of time and didn't feel the need to elaborate here, but if you haven't then just take some time to reconsider and maybe reach out to other progamers for their take.
Can't say I got an answer to your questions, the streaming agreements are somewhat secret and I know nothing of Canadian internet providers, but I wish you good luck with your endeavor I'll be looking out for your stream once you get it going
streaming is just one thing. the other thing is making a name for yourself, otherwise nobodys going to bother watching because theres plenty of people like you, but theres plenty of ways of doing that at this current time
On December 10 2011 13:06 EternaLEnVy wrote: I'm still wondering if you can stream on both at once trololol. (this might be one really retarded question)
On December 10 2011 13:06 EternaLEnVy wrote: I'm still wondering if you can stream on both at once trololol. (this might be one really retarded question)
It is possible.
is it common practice?
i cant imagine why people wouldnt do it if they have a plan for unlimited bandwidth unless lag.
yo OP Imma give you the perspective of someone who's done the college thing and understands where you are coming from.
I have 2 college degrees. One is an MA in a quantitative field from a top 25 program. I cant even get callbacks right now unless I apply to sell life insurance to dumb asses. I work part time as an RA and make, per week, less than you would streaming with 1,000 viewers.
So all these undergrads who bought that shit their parents told them about college being the most important thing in life, well theyre wrong. College doesnt mean shit. Having parents with connections or going to a good enough school where you can get connections is the ONLY thing that matters right now. If you dont have that and you hate school, quit. I liked school, so I kept going.
Dont listen to a bunch of kids who still have the blinders on, listen to your conscious and do what you want to do. You can always go back to school later, lots of people do. The people who are going to graduate, are going to graduate, it's just a matter of when. if you fail to make a living, you'll be just like them, except you wont have a college degree. But it wont matter, because you cant eat a college degree, you cant sleep in a college degree and now a days it doesnt even mean shit.
I cant help you with streaming. What I can tell you though is that you'll need more dedication to streaming that you have demonstrated that you have for school. I cant judge if you do or not, only you will know.
Also anyone know what the best times to stream are? I wonder if anyone has ever analyzed the peak times for viewers, since I can pretty much control when I sleep and wake up I would like to maximize viewers while I play xD.
On December 10 2011 14:35 red_b wrote: yo OP Imma give you the perspective of someone who's done the college thing and understands where you are coming from.
I have 2 college degrees. One is an MA in a quantitative field from a top 25 program. I cant even get callbacks right now unless I apply to sell life insurance to dumb asses. I work part time as an RA and make, per week, less than you would streaming with 1,000 viewers.
So all these undergrads who bought that shit their parents told them about college being the most important thing in life, well theyre wrong. College doesnt mean shit. Having parents with connections or going to a good enough school where you can get connections is the ONLY thing that matters right now. If you dont have that and you hate school, quit. I liked school, so I kept going.
Dont listen to a bunch of kids who still have the blinders on, listen to your conscious and do what you want to do. You can always go back to school later, lots of people do. The people who are going to graduate, are going to graduate, it's just a matter of when. if you fail to make a living, you'll be just like them, except you wont have a college degree. But it wont matter, because you cant eat a college degree, you cant sleep in a college degree and now a days it doesnt even mean shit.
I cant help you with streaming. What I can tell you though is that you'll need more dedication to streaming that you have demonstrated that you have for school. I cant judge if you do or not, only you will know.
Thanks :D. I've already completely decided though, there isn't anything but limitations beyond my reach that can stop me. Like if I can't stream at all in Canada then I'll be crying for the next month. If I was going to doubt myself after a few comments from random people who obviously don't care enough to respond properly, how am I going to be able to focus on climbing the ladder.
The way high level dota works is not in your favor. Most teams only recruit known players and its difficult to get on a known team just from solo play. Dota 2 does not really even have premier leagues right now, so it'd be hard to get known that way too. Canada doesn't have a good international team and north americas best teams have historically not lasted long. Incredibly talented people like fear and hit0mi had to go to international teams for stability. I doubt you will be as good as them even with practice. If you can't get a team that succeeds in major tournaments you won't even get 500 viewers. Dota is a team game, you can't do what you described in the op by yourself.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
Hurr-durr you should do school... hurr-durr you should be a responsible human being... where the fuck is the enjoyment of life in that.
I'm pretty sure if you could smoke, drink, do crack and hire prostitutes all day with no consequences you would, that doesn't mean it's a good idea in the real world.
On December 10 2011 14:47 Ack1027 wrote: The way high level dota works is not in your favor. Most teams only recruit known players and its difficult to get on a known team just from solo play. Dota 2 does not really even have premier leagues right now, so it'd be hard to get known that way too. Canada doesn't have a good international team and north americas best teams have historically not lasted long. Incredibly talented people like fear and hit0mi had to go to international teams for stability. I doubt you will be as good as them even with practice. If you can't get a team that succeeds in major tournaments you won't even get 500 viewers. Dota is a team game, you can't do what you described in the op by yourself.
So Basically if I'm good enough I'll be known, and make money. Thanks I knew that. I've also played with every single top player in NA and Hit0mi, who I considered to be a god, trained me for a week and then invited me to original IHL by ucross. I was rank top 30 within 2 months, Hit0mi was 15, fear was like 10 or something. Merlini first Col.Ezy 2nd.
You think you can transition to your engineering courses that easily after a couple of years if this doesn't work out? lol you seem to think that engineering is your back up plan when it should be the other way around. No, I'm not telling you that you should stay or leave your school. I'm just a bit offended that you could even possibly begin to underestimate the workload of becoming an engineer.
Convince us why you think this is a good idea. If you can't put this down on paper, it's likely that you're talking out of your ass.
What I don't get is why you would provide us with your irrelevant background when you could've simply asked, "How can I go around streaming with a low budget in an area whose ISP's overcharge?" It seems that a part of you is either unsure or acting like a kid who thinks he has made some tough decisions in his life.
On December 10 2011 15:02 billy5000 wrote: You think you can transition to your engineering courses that easily after a couple of years if this doesn't work out? lol you seem to think that engineering is your back up plan when it should be the other way around. No, I'm not telling you that you should stay or leave your school. I'm just a bit offended that you could even possibly begin to underestimate the workload of becoming an engineer.
for tryhards it might be impossible.
for even moderately gifted people it's not a problem.
the difficultly of university work is vastly overrepresented by people who have no scale and think that high school was anything other than a holding period to make sure you were sane enough to be allowed into a building without constant adult supervision.
I dont know. I dont sit in second year and yell down how easy it is while Im just waiting to hit a brick wall. I already made it through and then I went on further than 90% of the rest of them were ever going anyway and that wasnt very hard either.
the system is set up to be moderately challenging to average people and that basically holds true for engineering. most of the successful people I saw in Math/Science/Engineering were the hard workers anyway. people with no real innate ability but that simply possessed the ability to stick with something that almost anyone can learn with a bit of effort.
Wow at all the posts about what the OP stated he specifically did not was not interested in hearing, why do people just shit on anything that is not "normal" to them?
Anyway you need upwards of 3mbps upstream to stream in HD... Anywhere upwards of 1mbps would be fine for streaming at say 480p with good quality encoding. (very important: this is upstream rates, usually the second value when ISPs discuss speeds, for example a low speed dsl connection would be 512/128kbps... A high speed dsl connection could be as fast as 22mbps/1mbps... Anything higher than that you need to start looking at fibre or a specialised isdn or cable connection.) Unfortunately I have no idea about Canadian internet plans and you Really should be doing your own research on this before even considering it.
I also have no idea about what streaming sites are more viable for generating revenue, but either way, I wouldn't just expect to "make money" from streaming, but I'm sure you've realised this. I would just pick one to start with and go for it, you can always change what streaming site you are using later on.
Well, goodluck. Nothing against someone devoting time to what they love or want to do, and those who never take risks, will never achieve what those risks are gambling for.
On December 10 2011 14:47 Ack1027 wrote: The way high level dota works is not in your favor. Most teams only recruit known players and its difficult to get on a known team just from solo play. Dota 2 does not really even have premier leagues right now, so it'd be hard to get known that way too. Canada doesn't have a good international team and north americas best teams have historically not lasted long. Incredibly talented people like fear and hit0mi had to go to international teams for stability. I doubt you will be as good as them even with practice. If you can't get a team that succeeds in major tournaments you won't even get 500 viewers. Dota is a team game, you can't do what you described in the op by yourself.
So Basically if I'm good enough I'll be known, and make money. Thanks I knew that. I've also played with every single top player in NA and Hit0mi, who I considered to be a god, trained me for a week and then invited me to original IHL by ucross. I was rank top 30 within 2 months, Hit0mi was 15, fear was like 10 or something. Merlini first Col.Ezy 2nd.
No, that's the reason high level DotA doesn't work in your favor. It matters less how good you are and more about the people that you know. You won't even get the chance to scrim with the people that will give you exposure unless you've been part of the scene for a long long time. As cool as this idea is, and as much as I've considered it myself, it just isn't feasible unless you're already integrated into the in-houses.
I'm a second year engineering student at an equally difficult program to yours and I would highly suggest working through school and using your winter/summer breaks to test the waters, rather than jumping in immediately.
Edit: Not saying this is a terrible idea or that your should drop it completely, just ease yourself in before going all out. There's plenty of top DotA talent that have balanced rigorous schools and high-level DotA at the same time (Merlini played till med school, Bulba's on track to do the same), I don't see why you can't
On December 10 2011 14:35 red_b wrote: yo OP Imma give you the perspective of someone who's done the college thing and understands where you are coming from.
I have 2 college degrees. One is an MA in a quantitative field from a top 25 program. I cant even get callbacks right now unless I apply to sell life insurance to dumb asses. I work part time as an RA and make, per week, less than you would streaming with 1,000 viewers.
So all these undergrads who bought that shit their parents told them about college being the most important thing in life, well theyre wrong. College doesnt mean shit. Having parents with connections or going to a good enough school where you can get connections is the ONLY thing that matters right now. If you dont have that and you hate school, quit. I liked school, so I kept going.
Dont listen to a bunch of kids who still have the blinders on, listen to your conscious and do what you want to do. You can always go back to school later, lots of people do. The people who are going to graduate, are going to graduate, it's just a matter of when. if you fail to make a living, you'll be just like them, except you wont have a college degree. But it wont matter, because you cant eat a college degree, you cant sleep in a college degree and now a days it doesnt even mean shit.
I cant help you with streaming. What I can tell you though is that you'll need more dedication to streaming that you have demonstrated that you have for school. I cant judge if you do or not, only you will know.
To quote Dead Prez "School is like a 12-step brainwash camp, they make you think if you drop out you ain't got a chance to advance in life"
I dropped out and I have a better job than all my mates who's done the school thing where I'm happy and make enough money from.
Do what you want to do but know your limitations when to stop and go back.
I hope it goes well for you OP I don't know much about streaming so can't help you there, I usually prefer Twitch.tv but recently Own3d been working pretty good at this Kiev tournament so quite happy with that atm.
On December 10 2011 15:20 skipgamer wrote: Wow at all the posts about what the OP stated he specifically did not was not interested in hearing, why do people just shit on anything that is not "normal" to them?
Anyway you need upwards of 3mbps upstream to stream in HD... Anywhere upwards of 1mbps would be fine for streaming at say 480p with good quality encoding.
I have no idea about plans in Canada nor what streaming sites are more viable for generating revenue, but either way, I wouldn't just expect to "make money" from streaming, but I'm sure you've realised this. I would just pick one to start with and go for it, you can always change what streaming site you are using later on.
Because he asked for it. You don't start a technical discussion with a controversial love story. Skip the tragedy if it might interfere with what you're trying to get.
red_b, I see what you're saying. But for most people, it's going to be hard going back to a university, continuing where they left off. And I may have been wrong to assume this, but he sounds more like someone who's been discouraged by the workload the university forced him into, and he's just trying finding an alternate career path. Or even addicted to gaming. IDK, but if there's one thing I'd like to know, it's "WHY YOU WOULD MENTION SOMETHING SO IRRELEVANT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR ACTUAL PROBLEM?" It just feels suspicious.
Some people fit 2-3 commercials between sc2 games cus ladder takes a while to find.
45 minutes to find a game pick and play? I'm guessing it's that high cus u'r so good. Perhaps if u get a nice following and they (dota players) understand that it's hard to find a game, you can warn them to turn down their volumes and so you can play continuous commercials until it's time to play (tho u'll keep needing to send commercials, but u could get a LOT of money).
Also I'm sure your $0.02 is wrong. 2 cents times 1000 viewers is $20. I remember it is either $0.002 or $0.001, which would be $2 or $1 respectively. If you can have 100 viewers and have them stay during 40 minutes of 80 commercials, you can get $16 in that time. If you keep on even 50 viewers (should be realistic) then you get $8 which is pretty good considering it's stable and streaming profit is a new thing anyways so it's like "extra" money.
On December 10 2011 14:47 Ack1027 wrote: The way high level dota works is not in your favor. Most teams only recruit known players and its difficult to get on a known team just from solo play. Dota 2 does not really even have premier leagues right now, so it'd be hard to get known that way too. Canada doesn't have a good international team and north americas best teams have historically not lasted long. Incredibly talented people like fear and hit0mi had to go to international teams for stability. I doubt you will be as good as them even with practice. If you can't get a team that succeeds in major tournaments you won't even get 500 viewers. Dota is a team game, you can't do what you described in the op by yourself.
So Basically if I'm good enough I'll be known, and make money. Thanks I knew that. I've also played with every single top player in NA and Hit0mi, who I considered to be a god, trained me for a week and then invited me to original IHL by ucross. I was rank top 30 within 2 months, Hit0mi was 15, fear was like 10 or something. Merlini first Col.Ezy 2nd.
No, that's the reason high level DotA doesn't work in your favor. It matters less how good you are and more about the people that you know. You won't even get the chance to scrim with the people that will give you exposure unless you've been part of the scene for a long long time. As cool as this idea is, and as much as I've considered it myself, it just isn't feasible unless you're already integrated into the in-houses.
I'm a second year engineering student at an equally difficult program to yours and I would highly suggest working through school and using your winter/summer breaks to test the waters, rather than jumping in immediately.
Edit: Not saying this is a terrible idea or that your should drop it completely, just ease yourself in before going all out. There's plenty of top DotA talent that have balanced rigorous schools and high-level DotA at the same time (Merlini played till med school, Bulba's on track to do the same), I don't see why you can't
There's no such thing as in-house in DotA 1, people just play league all day. I can get into these leagues fairly easily because I'm well known in the NA community. Regardless of me being well known for being good or not, I'm well known for being at least GOOD ENOUGH to play with them.
The activity of top players is not nearly as high as you think, to start a dota game with top players takes a fucking year. That's why leagues exist.
Also, if you are good enough you will get to play for a team, regardless of how long you've been on the scene. They care about skill more. Power.NET was fucking terrible back when I was playing DotA, I carried him every game, now hes considered the top player in NA by almost all the pro players. He got into a team fairly fast.
Be intelligent and see how much you can improve over about a month. Take a term off or something and if you don't have great results after one term of pure DotA, then go back to school.
On December 10 2011 15:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: anime ftw
Some people fit 2-3 commercials between sc2 games cus ladder takes a while to find.
45 minutes to find a game pick and play? I'm guessing it's that high cus u'r so good. Perhaps if u get a nice following and they (dota players) understand that it's hard to find a game, you can warn them to turn down their volumes and so you can play continuous commercials until it's time to play (tho u'll keep needing to send commercials, but u could get a LOT of money).
Also I'm sure your $0.02 is wrong. 2 cents times 1000 viewers is $20. I remember it is either $0.002 or $0.001, which would be $2 or $1 respectively. If you can have 100 viewers and have them stay during 40 minutes of 80 commercials, you can get $16 in that time. If you keep on even 50 viewers (should be realistic) then you get $8 which is pretty good considering it's stable and streaming profit is a new thing anyways so it's like "extra" money.
thanks, that was just a typo, i did fix it.
45minutes is too long for a game really? Don't Pubs usually last like 40minutes with picks?
On December 10 2011 15:50 -Trippin- wrote: Be intelligent and see how much you can improve over about a month. Take a term off or something and if you don't have great results after one term of pure DotA, then go back to school.
I was thinking 1 year. I really don't think one term is enough to grasp the potential of $ in the scene. Espiecially because the games not out yet.
Also just because enough people are questioning whether I can just go back to school and do ok.
I mean if I realize that I'm not doing well enough in gaming, I'm sure it's not gonna be a last minute thing. If I decide 1 month before school starts I can always start reviewing things then. Also I don't really think it will take me much time to review concepts, and all I probably have to do is practice some math for like 2 weeks.
On December 10 2011 14:47 Ack1027 wrote: The way high level dota works is not in your favor. Most teams only recruit known players and its difficult to get on a known team just from solo play. Dota 2 does not really even have premier leagues right now, so it'd be hard to get known that way too. Canada doesn't have a good international team and north americas best teams have historically not lasted long. Incredibly talented people like fear and hit0mi had to go to international teams for stability. I doubt you will be as good as them even with practice. If you can't get a team that succeeds in major tournaments you won't even get 500 viewers. Dota is a team game, you can't do what you described in the op by yourself.
So Basically if I'm good enough I'll be known, and make money. Thanks I knew that. I've also played with every single top player in NA and Hit0mi, who I considered to be a god, trained me for a week and then invited me to original IHL by ucross. I was rank top 30 within 2 months, Hit0mi was 15, fear was like 10 or something. Merlini first Col.Ezy 2nd.
That wasn't my point but ok. There are glaring inconsistencies in how you portray your skill. Your op says you are rank 2 dotacash tier 2 but any dimwit could tell you that doesn't mean anything. Why wouldn't you say you played with some of NAs top players from the beginning?
However, EVEN ignoring all of that what is the point of this thread? You seem to be clearly convinced you're better than americas current best, and you want to know if owned or twitched makes you more money....something you can easily google. You say you don't need money for two years so why ask, mcdonalds pays more than dendi gets so why do you think you'd outstream him?
Anything regarding streaming would go into the tech section, which there already havebeen numerous guides on. So the only unique question you are asking is bandwidth caps regarding streaming in canada.
Well, I'm a fellow Canadian and I can, certainly say ISPs here certainly blow. There are the smaller ISPs around that don't have bandwidth caps or they're mind-blowjngly high. Although ou so have that contract =\ can't really help with the technical aspects. However I do remeber you back while you played for DWi in HoN! IIRC Tarano was there too and he's playing DotA2 now though he's not on a team.
I can't say I completely support relying on streaming as your sole source of income, it's not the most reliable. However, good-luck! Hope to see you on some joindota stream kicking ass in a tournament! I origionally played hon and seeing hon players do well like mouz's team makesh me happeh ^^.
I'm probably nowhere close to your skill level if your anything close to what you used to be but if you want to play some games I'll be up for it! PM me if you want I'm decent at least understand the game though still getting used to how DotAs so much more push oriented than HoN.
Edit: also what the guy on the first page meant about mod is just the moderator on your stream that bans/shutsup dem hayers and spammers.
On December 10 2011 12:22 Markwerf wrote: This was quite an obnoxious read. You seem to be quite the narcistic character, confidence is one thing but having it too much is just annoying.
Also the others are right, you should never leave school for gaming unless you are already having success at that moment. It's a terrible choice to leave school with the expectation that you will do well and make enough money with streaming. If you don't like your education, go do something else or finish it and then go do something else but this entire plan is just rediculous. This bragging about engsci is also just plain annoying
i agree with markwerf. all the most popular streamers attract viewers because of their personality and the tone of the OP comes off more like a plea for attention or appreciation. listen to the advice of people in this thread and don't take school for granted, especially if you're doing well.
you're free to do whatever you please but be prepared for a massive letdown when people don't show up to your opera.
If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Just go for it, if you fail you fail. But wheres the fun in not trying and second guessing yourself everytime you hear Dota2. You guessed it..... THAT WOULDNT BE FUN. That would actually suck come to think of it.
Don't let the scared people drag you down. I mean I wouldn't do it cause I suck at them interwebs games, but your obviously good, so give it a shot.
Worst that could happen is you don't make it, then you'd have to be a engineer, what a drag that would be. They'd shove that 60k down your throat too whether you tried to work for free or not.
I think people forget that there are 10,000 other people with this exact same idea, what makes you think you are any different? Skill? Like I said out of those 10,000 people half are probably more skilled than you, know more people and still can't make it as a pro gamer.
Lets look at this realistically.
Unless you are 1 in a million like destiny (statistically you aren't) you would make more money working a part time janitor job at a government building 3 days a week for 8 hours. I mean do what you want, just realize it's going to fail, the chances of it succeeding are so low that anyone can realistically say it is not possible and 99% of the time they will be right. I don't care if you quit school or shoot a guy in the face to get in jail so you can play DotA all day, that's your business, but fact of the matter is
1) Becoming a pro gamer amongst the hundreds of thousands of people trying is next to impossible 2) Even if you are pro you aren't guarunteed streamers, Rain only has 50 right now and its prime time. 3) Even if you do get streamers unless you have over 2k consistently you are making sweatshop money 4) Pro gaming is not a lucrative career and its much harder work than the majority of actual jobs.
I'm not going to hate like some of the others, but I am going to question why you made this thread in the first place.
These questions you posted are things you can find by searching TL or searching the internet blindfolded. You may blame finals for taking your time in researching but that just tells me you haven't taken the time to think about your HUGE commitment to quit school for a bit and go into gaming.
I'm sorry, but as far as I can see in the OP, all I see is bragging about how good you are to the TL Dota 2 community. You could've simply asked these questions without any of this bragging. If no one can "change your mind", then just go do it and stop posting in here.
On December 10 2011 16:35 Nub4ever wrote: Well, I'm a fellow Canadian and I can, certainly say ISPs here certainly blow. There are the smaller ISPs around that don't have bandwidth caps or they're mind-blowjngly high. Although ou so have that contract =\ can't really help with the technical aspects. However I do remeber you back while you played for DWi in HoN! IIRC Tarano was there too and he's playing DotA2 now though he's not on a team.
I can't say I completely support relying on streaming as your sole source of income, it's not the most reliable. However, good-luck! Hope to see you on some joindota stream kicking ass in a tournament! I origionally played hon and seeing hon players do well like mouz's team makesh me happeh ^^.
I'm probably nowhere close to your skill level if your anything close to what you used to be but if you want to play some games I'll be up for it! PM me if you want I'm decent at least understand the game though still getting used to how DotAs so much more push oriented than HoN.
Edit: also what the guy on the first page meant about mod is just the moderator on your stream that bans/shutsup dem hayers and spammers.
Oh, I intend to win tournaments. I don't love games because the game itself is fun, I love it for the competition. If I at anytime where to be discouraged, then that's when my purpose in pursuing this path is lost. I plan to win, and nothing else will be satisfactory.
Ok so I changed the OP to contain less information. Though I'm keeping my history at least in MOBA because I want people to be able to compare me with other streamers such as H4NNI AND Testie from HoN who were around my skill level.
On December 10 2011 17:47 0oZe wrote: I'm not going to hate like some of the others, but I am going to question why you made this thread in the first place.
These questions you posted are things you can find by searching TL or searching the internet blindfolded. You may blame finals for taking your time in researching but that just tells me you haven't taken the time to think about your HUGE commitment to quit school for a bit and go into gaming.
I'm sorry, but as far as I can see in the OP, all I see is bragging about how good you are to the TL Dota 2 community. You could've simply asked these questions without any of this bragging. If no one can "change your mind", then just go do it and stop posting in here.
The reason as to why I'm being carefree in terms of streaming is because I've noticed that other Canadians stream so there shouldn't be a limitation that is impossible to overcome.
There are other good reasons as to why I posted this other than getting emotional support in doing this. Not only did people help me with some of the questions I asked (through PM etc as well), but also they shed new light on other things I possibly can worry about (which is one of the main reasons as to why I posted this).
Good luck. I got my engineering degree and know how draining it can be. 2nd year was the worst for me and I hear the program you are in is a couple classes harder than what I was doing. I don't see why people think it is so hard to go back to school. I'm sure you do a lot more math and that is probably the hardest thing to get caught up on (or maybe the civil stuff). And if you can afford to take the time off then money probably isn't an issue. You'll make enough money in engineering anyway and you have the rest of your life to do it.
I'm jealous, I want to play dota fulltime too, but I don't think my wife would like it. So let me know your channel and I'll try to live vicariously through you.
It should answer all your questions about upload speed, what CPU is recommended, basically everything you need to know about setting up an good, quality stream.
Also I wish you best of luck, and don't forget to post your stream in that DOTA 2 stream compilation thread.
Honestly, good luck to you, but it's going to be a very very hard path for you. Streaming does not and will not make you money unless you somehow get the popularity either through a super charismatic personality or incredible, raw skill. Breaking into the MOBA pro scene in general is not easy at all, simply because you need a team in order to make a name for yourself. This means not only do you have to be damn good, but you need to know four other people who are willing to play with you who are also damn good.
dota doesn't have the streaming potential that starcraft has unfortunately. not nearly as many people are willing to sit around for an entire 50 minute game watching a player they have never heard of.
1st. you need to be a partner before you even make money, so you need hundreds of viewers regularly just to get to that status
2nd. go ahead take leave of school, we could all use a break every now and then just be sure to go back. people who say "stay in school always or you'll be a bum blah blah blah" are just taking everything too seriously do what you think you can be happy doing, like me, minimum wage job and gaming while taking a break from school to get back on my feet after some hard times and I can honestly say I've never felt better in my life
Not sure if it was mentioned but your best bet in Canada is Teksavvy with the their extreme-cable you could stream at 480p. If things are working out then maybe you can contact them and upgrade to a business plan for faster speeds. It is unlimited upload/download.
Actually, their high speed dsl offers 7 mpb upload which should be enough for 1080p, but it has a 300 GB cap.
On December 10 2011 16:44 Cel.erity wrote: If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Where do you get numbers like, "75% of people have adblock"?
I certainly don't, and i know a number of people who don't. More than who do. While i'm not saying that you can't be right with this, i just wanted to know if you had an actual reason to believe 75% don't, or if you're just picking that number b/c you believe that the vast majority of people use it, simply because you do.
I just don't see how playing DotA so much is so beneficial that you need to quit school? You're a veteran DotA player so I'd imagine you're aware that being able to play at the highest level skillwise is actually not that big of a feat (not comparable to starcraft at least), it's the teamwork and strategies that have always been the number one things to practice for pros, so playing like 4 hours a day should be enough if you want to get back in shape. As far as I know most DotA pros in the past have been able to keep studying while maintaining a career. If it's the money you want from streaming then I just don't see much point in it. Being good is not enough to guarantee big viewer numbers, so in my opinion it's kind of a gamble whether you'll make it or not.
Hey. I don't think people will mind if you show 2 commercial after each dota game, because they go be very long. But the key thing about getting enough viewers to make this plausible, is you have to talk with your audience as the game is going on. Make sure you have an interesting enough personality. Also, I believe giving commentary is easier in dota, because there is more downtime for talking, like when you are lasting creeps. Anyways those are my thought, I don't really have any knowledge of the internet situation. I wish you the best of luck!
Dota is not sc. You don't need to play it 12h/day to be able to be the best.
If you want to drop out, thats your problem. But do something else then...playing that much dota is a waste. The has a low skill cap, once you get into a team, then you can have some schedule for practice, but that is mostly few games a day (judging by what it was in pro dota).
You can read interviews from best players in the world, stating that after a while, it was just about playing a few games a week and keeping up teamwork.
On December 10 2011 16:44 Cel.erity wrote: If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Where do you get numbers like, "75% of people have adblock"?
I certainly don't, and i know a number of people who don't. More than who do. While i'm not saying that you can't be right with this, i just wanted to know if you had an actual reason to believe 75% don't, or if you're just picking that number b/c you believe that the vast majority of people use it, simply because you do.
Depends on the demographic. Everybody I know uses adblock, and they don't refrain from telling others to use it(although we disable it on TL because we love TL).
On December 10 2011 16:44 Cel.erity wrote: If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Where do you get numbers like, "75% of people have adblock"?
I certainly don't, and i know a number of people who don't. More than who do. While i'm not saying that you can't be right with this, i just wanted to know if you had an actual reason to believe 75% don't, or if you're just picking that number b/c you believe that the vast majority of people use it, simply because you do.
Plus, intelligent viewers take the 1 second to disable adblock on their favorite stream sites like twitch.tv. Saying 75% is just being retarded, it'd be nowhere near that.
I remember you as well, from open leagues and shit on BNet (I was MasSamurai).
You've already stated you don't want posts to attempt to change your mind so I'll go with that for now.
Basically with streaming services you're looking at SC2 vs LoL. LoL players use Ow3nd and have become a lot more familiar with their service. They're also rumored to pay more (unsure if this is true). Big named LoL players like HotshotGG can get 30k+ viewers and I've read somewhere (again not a trusted source or anything) you make roughly 3 dollars per 1k viewer per ad. The SC2 community loves Twitch.TV. They're always around the scene and engages with the community a lot. They have the love and support of the Starcraft 2 community.
What you'd have to do in DotA is run multiple commercials between games. Some Starcraft 2 people do it after long games as well. Since it can take quite some time to find a game you want to run a couple and probably talk in chat to entertain viewers, etc.
If you have shit internet it'll be hard to Stream. People usually want the option of having awesome quality (720/1080) to shit quality (360/480) depending in their internet speed. At 360 you can discern major things like different heroes, major graphic spells, etc but small numbers are blurry, etc. You probably want at least 540+. A Stream I regularly view at work is on 540+ and it's enough for me to read most of the crap on the screen and understand what's going on.
Your best bet in getting a bunch of viewers is placing well in a decent tournament. Something major would obviously help but people don't usually jump into that right away.
Good luck with everything, hope it works out well.
As for the people who think it's possible to do engineering and gaming at the same time. Keep in mind that I need to catch up to them, Merlini was already the best at his time. More importantly, my course is considered Elite and is probably 2 times faster pace with 1.5x more work than a normal engineering course in my uni. We finished vector calc (divergence theorem etc) mid October of second year while Electrical Engineering doesn't finish vector calc till the end of second semester of second year. I don't think I can keep up with school while being pro.
On December 11 2011 01:28 Gotmog wrote: Dota is not sc. You don't need to play it 12h/day to be able to be the best.
If you want to drop out, thats your problem. But do something else then...playing that much dota is a waste. The has a low skill cap, once you get into a team, then you can have some schedule for practice, but that is mostly few games a day (judging by what it was in pro dota).
You can read interviews from best players in the world, stating that after a while, it was just about playing a few games a week and keeping up teamwork.
I disagree entirely. The only reason as to why I was climbing up quickly when I was a kid was because I played more than everyone else (while still taking it seriously). Chinese DotA pros are the best because of the sheer hours of practice and seriousness of practice. It is because of this mind set that NA players are so far behind.
1. Can't help you here. I don't know enough about the two sites.
2. You need to do your own research. As each area has different pricing and speeds, people across Canada can't help you. Look at your local ISPs and figure out what is best for you. You should first take a look at stream settings and estimate how much upload and bandwidth allowance you're going to need to stream.
Good luck. Another thing to consider is that the viewer count for Dota2 streams might increase once the game is actually released. That might help you.
On December 10 2011 16:44 Cel.erity wrote: If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Where do you get numbers like, "75% of people have adblock"?
I certainly don't, and i know a number of people who don't. More than who do. While i'm not saying that you can't be right with this, i just wanted to know if you had an actual reason to believe 75% don't, or if you're just picking that number b/c you believe that the vast majority of people use it, simply because you do.
Dan Dihn from League of Legends gave similar statistics.
Sadly, I don't even have a DotA 2 key, and even if I did I'm debating whether I should even play it for a while, the game is too betaish and it's definitely not the best way to get better. I'm sure I'll play some games with people like Tarano are on but other than that it might be a waste of time in terms of practice.
I wonder if people would even watch DotA streams (not dota 2)
The worst thing that can happen is that you fail misserably and have to go back to school with your tail between your legs. If you want to do this and it makes you happy, go for it. Personally, I would rather spend a year studying abroad etc (which is what I personally did, moved to Japan for a year) but if it's gaming you want to do, that's what you should do.
If you were really one of the better HoN players, you might even do well, so why not?
I would recommend you to finish your undergrad or perhaps even master degree before pursuing the life of progaming seriously. In the case that you fail you at least have something to fall back on. Also having a low 80s average is like a 3.7~ GPA in U of T, for an engsci student that's pretty godly, so waiting 2-3 more years to finish your degree probably a piece of cake for you seeing how you're not even trying that hard in school.
On December 11 2011 02:48 Nos- wrote: I would recommend you to finish your undergrad or perhaps even master degree before pursuing the life of progaming seriously. In the case that you fail you at least have something to fall back on. Also having a low 80s average is like a 3.7~ GPA in U of T, for an engsci student that's pretty godly, so waiting 2-3 more years to finish your degree probably a piece of cake for you seeing how you're not even trying that hard in school.
I'm from Toronto as well. In regards to streaming, the best option I have found (a high upload and large bandwidth limit) is Techsavvy's DSL option at 25 down and 7 up and 300 gigs a month. it's 67$ a month. as far as I know the next best is Bell and Rogers who each have a package that has 2gig upload. Found here: http://teksavvy.com/en/res-internet.asp
On December 11 2011 03:05 Sufficiency wrote: Oh the irony. Engineering Science at UofT is its best program. Once you graduate you are employable anywhere.
It's something you can fall back on, with a degree it's much easier to get a job then say someone who dropped out of university. Just something to consider.
Why couldnt you be a progamer with that degree? A lot of people seem to think that you would just be more stable financially if you started this after you finished school, i agree with them. But if you think you can make it work then chase the dream. Good luck no matter what you do.
On December 11 2011 03:13 Nos- wrote: It's something you can fall back on, with a degree it's much easier to get a job then say someone who dropped out of university. Just something to consider.
On December 11 2011 03:14 PassiveAce wrote: Why couldnt you be a progamer with that degree? A lot of people seem to think that you would just be more stable financially if you started this after you finished school, i agree with them. But if you think you can make it work then chase the dream. Good luck no matter what you do.
I can't because if I catching up once people start trying hard in DotA 2 is extremely difficult and also because it will cost me another 24k to get my degree.
Well if you think you can support yourself financially for 1-2 years while going pro then go for it. I've given my piece, feel free to ignore it, but like other people said I feel that financially it's more stable if you just finished your degree. Good luck in any case if you're sure of it, wouldn't mind to see another eventual dota pro on this forum.
Okay I read through this thread and I think some of the posts against you are a bit harsh, but they are right. Keep in mind that you need to sacrifice A SHITLOAD in order to become anything near a pro gamer.
You are right when you are saying that you can go back to school any time, but at a certain point it CAN be (it does not have to be the case) too late.
On December 11 2011 03:43 SwitchAUS wrote: "It's only two years of my life"
If that's your approach to life, I have serious doubts about how far you'll go. Good luck with it, but I don't plan on watching.
The funny thing is that it's kinda contradictory. Once I start playing, every single second starts to count, I get mad at myself if I stop for any amount of time to "take a break."
You know, you could've just ask for help on setting up streaming and playing DOTA2 professionally without sharing with the internet your own controversial life decisions. You have to be really dumb to mention all this personal junk and then expect a forum filled with immature/bored young males all around your own age to not flame you.
On December 11 2011 03:48 bubblegumbo wrote: You know, you could've just ask for help on setting up streaming and playing DOTA2 professionally without sharing with the internet your own controversial life decisions. You have to be really dumb to mention all this personal junk and then expect a forum filled with immature/bored young males all around your own age to not flame you.
On December 10 2011 16:44 Cel.erity wrote: If you're quitting school because you want to pursue pro DotA, that's fine.
If you're quitting school because you think you can make money streaming, don't waste your time. Until you become known, you'll be lucky to get 100 viewers on a good day, and even once you do become known I don't think there's a good way to play commercials due to the game length as you stated. If you play commercials 3 times during your games, people aren't going to want to watch your stream. Also, your math is off. It's $8/1k viewers who DO NOT have adblock. Guess what though? 75% of viewers have adblock, so you actually need 4k viewers to make that kind of money. It's just not feasible to make a living this way.
Where do you get numbers like, "75% of people have adblock"?
I certainly don't, and i know a number of people who don't. More than who do. While i'm not saying that you can't be right with this, i just wanted to know if you had an actual reason to believe 75% don't, or if you're just picking that number b/c you believe that the vast majority of people use it, simply because you do.
These are the stats from jtv partners that I've asked, since I was looking into becoming a partner. But they said it's not worth it because well over half of users have adblock. Sure, maybe they disable it for their favorite streams, but if you're running commercials constantly DURING your DotA games, do you really think there are a lot of people who will put up with that?
There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
i think most of the people commenting in this thread have nothing against you or your ability. it's just your approach seems very impulsive.
why don't you continue studying but slowly make the transition into full time pro gaming as your presence within the scene grows? it just seems silly to jump ship like that, especially for an underdeveloped esport.
you don't wonder why so many dota pros leave the scene with excuses such as "i'm going to focus on school" "i'm going to focus on a real job" "i'm going to focus on real life"? every month there's a dota pro spitting such excuses.
anyways, people overrate how well individual players make up teams. you can have 5 decent players and do either really well or poorly. its all about teamwork. look at Navi when they first had their new roster of 5 all star players. they actually lost to PGG and his PUG squad at ASUS. (top dota lan in russia). why? because they had no sense of teamwork/roles/ what to do at the time. trace the team to how they are now and even in their games vs MYM when they either played poorly or well. if you want to be successful in dota, u have to be successful with a team you can be the best player in the planet and still be a random player if you dont have a team of 4 good players that know what to do. so get rid of your attitude now because you act like you are entitled to some godlike level from reading some of your posts. and to the topic at hand, stick to engineering. Dota is a game that doesnt need as much constant mechanical practice as say sc2. if you have the mechanics, all you need to work on is teamwork and decisions. there is a skillcap in dota. look at china, all the top players are reasonably near each other in skill. but the (players) that do well compared to the players that dont do well are the ones with better teams and synergy. look at Xiaolou(eg's standin), i would put him at the level of top carries like zhou. but he lacks experience. same with sylar. anyways im just rattling on now.
if you can't manage both , that just says something about you and your willpower.
My advice would be try to get good at the game and then get featured on some site. For example, Team solo mid from league of legends is opening a dota2 part of their website. If you can get good enough that they would feature you, your viewer count should rise.
If you want to make money from this, get a really powerful PC. Use Xsplit to stream to J.tv/Twitch/Own3d, everything. Market yourself. Make sure everyone knows who you are. Get contracts with all the streaming services.
On December 11 2011 01:57 Kaiko wrote: Basically with streaming services you're looking at SC2 vs LoL. LoL players use Ow3nd and have become a lot more familiar with their service. They're also rumored to pay more (unsure if this is true). Big named LoL players like HotshotGG can get 30k+ viewers and I've read somewhere (again not a trusted source or anything) you make roughly 3 dollars per 1k viewer per ad. The SC2 community loves Twitch.TV. They're always around the scene and engages with the community a lot. They have the love and support of the Starcraft 2 community.
It is true, just straight up fact that they pay 50% more to partners because they have better ad company partnerships and stuff. Twitch pays 2 CPM, own3d pays 3 (this number CAN vary depending on individual contracts and deals, but for the most part its the generic amount offered to most everyone). But either way, getting partnership isn't that easy unless 1) you are already well known or 2) can get consistently high viewer counts, as both websites have become much more strict in the recent months, on who they add as partners. Also in terms of viewership the most watched dota streams tend to be on own3d as well (dendi, link, joindota, dota commentaries, other player streams) probably due to the fact that own3d has more european viewers, and dota is much more popular over there than in NA. Over in twitch only like, mania and sing really get above 200 viewers, and I don't think I've seen either of them go past 1k.
as a canadian internet user.. i think the fastest you can get is cogeco. although they have a bandwidth limit u can ask for pricing on unlim if they have. i heard teksavvy had an unlim plan but idk
good for you man. I'm an engsci student myself graduating next june. Was engsci worth it? Absolutely not! Play your heart out bro, but when u realli want to get a job after you finish, transfer to indy ffs.
I just upgraded my Rogers plan in speed and limit (100 GB), as long as you're not torrenting like a fiend I think you'd be OK in that limit. See if you can upgrade if you have to be stuck with them for another 2 years. TekSavvy does have an unlim plan but I've got a friend who complains about the speed sometimes (though he has a few housemates who use a lot of net too so that's probably the issue)
I played several thousands dota games, even from the start i was significantly better than your average player (yes i know most people have the tendency to rank themselves above average in pretty much everything, i tried taking that into account^^) but i was still even after all those games horribly far away from the actual top players and even tiers below that, if this guy played amongst the best hon players without even committing himself I'd say there's no reason to not try for it if he really wants to.
I'm at UofT engineering too and I'm some semi-pro DotA player on a team with the likes of MYM|PRIME|NATIONS|WINNER|USA|BuLba and OK|NIRVANA|AT|THE|INTERNATIONAL|UNiVeRsE.
I suggest you don't take leave. I don't know your reasons behind your decision, but it sounds rash and immature. You're in arguably the best program at a good university, so if you're doing as good as you say you are there should be no reason to drop it. Unless you're not or you don't find joy in what you're doing - the answer is not switch to DotA, but find something else. What else do you like doing besides "gaming and anime"? Most people enjoy those things, but enjoying it and having the dedication to go full-time and try and make a living off it are two very different things. What you want to do in life isn't just doing what makes you the happiest all the time.
Now with all the real-life shit out of the way, on to the DotA aspects.
I played you and eZ.Hunting in 1v1s a way long time ago, and I remember beating you. I remember playing you a couple times in TDAs and DCLs, and quite frankly you're what I lump into a category which basically consists of solo players who have the skill but not the mindset nor the insight to play on a team at a high level. You seem arrogant too. I can go on a list about my e-achievements and make them seem big and meaningful but at the end of the day they're not. I played with some well-known TF2 teams but in the end I'll never make it big in that. I played some street fighter with some of the best in America, but I'm still ultimately shit at that game. I'm decently skilled in a few other games, but that doesn't mean I'm destined to become pro.
In the same respects, getting high on the ladder might mean you're skilled, but it doesn't mean you'll make it at the top. I've been playing for a long ass time and with achievements better than yours (I wasn't playing competitive at the time of original IHL, TIHL or IHCS, but from every league since then I've mostly been there with quite a few top place finishes). I've still never broken into the very top of the DotA scene and there are still a lot of players better than me. Re-evaluate how you stand.
Now with that said, I'm not a divine being that makes your decisions for you. As I've outlined, your decision merely seems rash and immature and I'm trying to give you some perspective as to how being 'pro' really works. Anyone might indeed have the potential to become the next DeMoN if they go full-time. Who am I or anyone else to say otherwise? I think we'd all enjoy having someone like another day9 or tastosis in the esports community as evidenced by the support you're getting in this thread. I just think you need to think about it a bit more before you make that decision.
On December 11 2011 04:14 Eschaton wrote: There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
anyways, people overrate how well individual players make up teams. you can have 5 decent players and do either really well or poorly. its all about teamwork. look at Navi when they first had their new roster of 5 all star players. they actually lost to PGG and his PUG squad at ASUS. (top dota lan in russia). why? because they had no sense of teamwork/roles/ what to do at the time. trace the team to how they are now and even in their games vs MYM when they either played poorly or well. if you want to be successful in dota, u have to be successful with a team you can be the best player in the planet and still be a random player if you dont have a team of 4 good players that know what to do. so get rid of your attitude now because you act like you are entitled to some godlike level from reading some of your posts. and to the topic at hand, stick to engineering. Dota is a game that doesnt need as much constant mechanical practice as say sc2. if you have the mechanics, all you need to work on is teamwork and decisions. there is a skillcap in dota. look at china, all the top players are reasonably near each other in skill. but the (players) that do well compared to the players that dont do well are the ones with better teams and synergy. look at Xiaolou(eg's standin), i would put him at the level of top carries like zhou. but he lacks experience. same with sylar. anyways im just rattling on now.
if you can't manage both , that just says something about you and your willpower.
You have absolutely no idea how my program works. It is an extremely accelerated program that goes at twice the speed of Electrical Engineering which is one of the hardest engineerings in general. Regardless of will power or not, I am not talented enough to be one of the best in DotA while keeping my marks above 90 in school. I'm not the type that wants a 85 avg and pretty good at DotA, I'm the type to pick one and go for it. People that don't know me have no right to judge me.
As for your last paragraph, it is extremely contradictory. You say that we need experience and not just skill but then you go and say that practicing 12 hours is a waste of time. You get experience from playing, not just mechanics.
On December 11 2011 06:53 Brood_Star wrote: fuck it i'll make a post.
I'm at UofT engineering too and I'm some semi-pro DotA player on a team with the likes of MYM|PRIME|NATIONS|WINNER|USA|BuLba and OK|NIRVANA|AT|THE|INTERNATIONAL|UNiVeRsE.
I suggest you don't take leave. I don't know your reasons behind your decision, but it sounds rash and immature. You're in arguably the best program at a good university, so if you're doing as good as you say you are there should be no reason to drop it. Unless you're not or you don't find joy in what you're doing - the answer is not switch to DotA, but find something else. What else do you like doing besides "gaming and anime"? Most people enjoy those things, but enjoying it and having the dedication to go full-time and try and make a living off it are two very different things. What you want to do in life isn't just doing what makes you the happiest all the time.
Now with all the real-life shit out of the way, on to the DotA aspects.
I played you and eZ.Hunting in 1v1s a way long time ago, and I remember beating you. I remember playing you a couple times in TDAs and DCLs, and quite frankly you're what I lump into a category which basically consists of solo players who have the skill but not the mindset nor the insight to play on a team at a high level. You seem arrogant too. I can go on a list about my e-achievements and make them seem big and meaningful but at the end of the day they're not. I played with some well-known TF2 teams but in the end I'll never make it big in that. I played some street fighter with some of the best in America, but I'm still ultimately shit at that game. I'm decently skilled in a few other games, but that doesn't mean I'm destined to become pro.
In the same respects, getting high on the ladder might mean you're skilled, but it doesn't mean you'll make it at the top. I've been playing for a long ass time and with achievements better than yours (I wasn't playing competitive at the time of original IHL, TIHL or IHCS, but from every league since then I've mostly been there with quite a few top place finishes). I've still never broken into the very top of the DotA scene and there are still a lot of players better than me. Re-evaluate how you stand.
Now with that said, I'm not a divine being that makes your decisions for you. As I've outlined, your decision merely seems rash and immature and I'm trying to give you some perspective as to how being 'pro' really works. Anyone might indeed have the potential to become the next DeMoN if they go full-time. Who am I or anyone else to say otherwise? I think we'd all enjoy having someone like another day9 or tastosis in the esports community as evidenced by the support you're getting in this thread. I just think you need to think about it a bit more before you make that decision.
Toodles and tata~
The two times where I was actually good was when I was REALLY young in old IHL and back in HoN. The DcL days where back when I wasn't even caring enough to compete or play in DxDi or IHCS even though I was in both leagues. I've quit DotA 3 times for 1 year periods due to school and other personal reasons and hence y when I came back for DcL i was admittedly total shit.
Although in reality, a year or two of my time really won't cost me my future, the way I'm approaching this situation is admittedly suicidal. But honestly, I don't really care. It's my personal belief that if I take the game seriously that I will catch up. Current players use terms like "try hards" and stupid shit like that to discourage people from practicing for real but none of that matters to me. If I play for real I'll definitely catch up, if I think any other way I would fail.
On December 11 2011 05:42 fy12345 wrote: good for you man. I'm an engsci student myself graduating next june. Was engsci worth it? Absolutely not! Play your heart out bro, but when u realli want to get a job after you finish, transfer to indy ffs.
LOL, ill just go into energy option and troll there.
On December 11 2011 06:53 Brood_Star wrote: fuck it i'll make a post.
I'm at UofT engineering too and I'm some semi-pro DotA player on a team with the likes of MYM|PRIME|NATIONS|WINNER|USA|BuLba and OK|NIRVANA|AT|THE|INTERNATIONAL|UNiVeRsE.
I suggest you don't take leave. I don't know your reasons behind your decision, but it sounds rash and immature. You're in arguably the best program at a good university, so if you're doing as good as you say you are there should be no reason to drop it. Unless you're not or you don't find joy in what you're doing - the answer is not switch to DotA, but find something else. What else do you like doing besides "gaming and anime"? Most people enjoy those things, but enjoying it and having the dedication to go full-time and try and make a living off it are two very different things. What you want to do in life isn't just doing what makes you the happiest all the time.
Now with all the real-life shit out of the way, on to the DotA aspects.
I played you and eZ.Hunting in 1v1s a way long time ago, and I remember beating you. I remember playing you a couple times in TDAs and DCLs, and quite frankly you're what I lump into a category which basically consists of solo players who have the skill but not the mindset nor the insight to play on a team at a high level. You seem arrogant too. I can go on a list about my e-achievements and make them seem big and meaningful but at the end of the day they're not. I played with some well-known TF2 teams but in the end I'll never make it big in that. I played some street fighter with some of the best in America, but I'm still ultimately shit at that game. I'm decently skilled in a few other games, but that doesn't mean I'm destined to become pro.
In the same respects, getting high on the ladder might mean you're skilled, but it doesn't mean you'll make it at the top. I've been playing for a long ass time and with achievements better than yours (I wasn't playing competitive at the time of original IHL, TIHL or IHCS, but from every league since then I've mostly been there with quite a few top place finishes). I've still never broken into the very top of the DotA scene and there are still a lot of players better than me. Re-evaluate how you stand.
Now with that said, I'm not a divine being that makes your decisions for you. As I've outlined, your decision merely seems rash and immature and I'm trying to give you some perspective as to how being 'pro' really works. Anyone might indeed have the potential to become the next DeMoN if they go full-time. Who am I or anyone else to say otherwise? I think we'd all enjoy having someone like another day9 or tastosis in the esports community as evidenced by the support you're getting in this thread. I just think you need to think about it a bit more before you make that decision.
Toodles and tata~
oh btw, I trust your judgement. You play frequently with the top players. How good is Tarano, H4nni, and AngryTestie in comparison to other players? Ofc I'm having a hard time evaluating my skill because I've yet to play DotA seriously for so long so I only have HoN to count on. I considered Korok MB slightly better than me in terms of skill even though I raped him in HoN, he was new to the game.
On December 11 2011 04:55 daytrippers wrote: Yooo eternalenvy!! Its Vikingar/kunjen. We played a fuckload in DCL, until you went to some dumb asian dragon rpg or something. gogo EE!
LOL ITS YOU. I remember you being BOSS. Furious is playing Dota 2 atm if u want to play with him I'll pm you my face book.
well if you are so eager to be the best at one , why not finish your degree and just play dota as a hobby for now. Getting good grades in your course of study is a lot more ideal than attempting to be the best at a game that isnt just about your skill but 4 other individuals.
and i said "as much as sc2" ya u need some practice but not so much that you dedicate your whole life to playing the game.
On December 11 2011 04:14 Eschaton wrote: There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
But the door I truly want won't be opened.
How do you know what you truly want.
You are barely 20, you haven't even finished college, or had a real job, or had a real life.
Your life has consisted of a video game and watching anime.
You don't know what you want. You need to leave your cocoon and get with reality before you decide to go further down the rabbit hole.
Yeah DotA isn't really the type of game where playing 12 hours a day is going to help you. Way better to play with the same people for a few hours a day, beyond the 5th or 6th hour everything is going to blur together and you'll learn nothing. This is contrary to Starcraft where you need a really high level of mechanical skill and robotic habits; DotA is more about awareness, and that only degrades over long practice periods.
On December 11 2011 07:54 Cel.erity wrote: Yeah DotA isn't really the type of game where playing 12 hours a day is going to help you. Way better to play with the same people for a few hours a day, beyond the 5th or 6th hour everything is going to blur together and you'll learn nothing. This is contrary to Starcraft where you need a really high level of mechanical skill and robotic habits; DotA is more about awareness, and that only degrades over long practice periods.
Processing information quickly in order to maximize positional efficiency is one of the key skills that professional players have over pretty much every other player. The reason why Chinese players are so good at DotA 1 is because they practice quite abit in order to learn what to do in certain situations. Yes, DotA is easier mechanically than Starcraft, but the processing of information on the fly it is just as hard if not harder in some instances.
On December 11 2011 04:14 Eschaton wrote: There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
But the door I truly want won't be opened.
How do you know what you truly want.
You are barely 20, you haven't even finished college, or had a real job, or had a real life.
Your life has consisted of a video game and watching anime.
You don't know what you want. You need to leave your cocoon and get with reality before you decide to go further down the rabbit hole.
I have trouble understanding this kind of post, and i think you should, too. If you merely look at what you are saying, it sounds as if you are concerned for EE's well being and are therefore posting to warn him away and ultimately get him onto a path to happiness, or more happiness then the path he is proposing will lead to. But if you care about him as another human being and are trying to protect him, why is the tone of your post wholly condescending and harsh? I would have to say it is because you posted this to justify your life decisions or at the least your beliefs, to add to yourself by telling him how hes wrong. His reality doesnt match up with yours, does it threaten you? Look deeply.
On December 11 2011 07:54 Cel.erity wrote: Yeah DotA isn't really the type of game where playing 12 hours a day is going to help you. Way better to play with the same people for a few hours a day, beyond the 5th or 6th hour everything is going to blur together and you'll learn nothing. This is contrary to Starcraft where you need a really high level of mechanical skill and robotic habits; DotA is more about awareness, and that only degrades over long practice periods.
Youve made up all of this information just in time to post it. Are you aware that DotA is such a huge esport in china that even people who do not play videogames know of it? Its similiar to bw in korea. Are you also aware that in china they have teamhouses in which many dota teams practice for 10+ hours a day? The chinese are also the best in the world.
On December 11 2011 07:54 Cel.erity wrote: Yeah DotA isn't really the type of game where playing 12 hours a day is going to help you. Way better to play with the same people for a few hours a day, beyond the 5th or 6th hour everything is going to blur together and you'll learn nothing. This is contrary to Starcraft where you need a really high level of mechanical skill and robotic habits; DotA is more about awareness, and that only degrades over long practice periods.
Youve made up all of this information just in time to post it. Are you aware that DotA is such a huge esport in china that even people who do not play videogames know of it? Its similiar to bw in korea. Are you also aware that in china they have teamhouses in which many dota teams practice for 10+ hours a day? The chinese are also the best in the world.
The reason the Chinese are the best in the world is that the practice, together, in the same house, for 10+ hours a day. This is not the same as playing in random pubs or inhouses for 10+ hours a day. They are playing that much to enhance their teamwork, not their understanding of the game. For someone who isn't good enough yet to go pro, it's not going to help to train for ridiculous amounts of time. And yeah, pretty sure me and bulba know more about this than you do.
On December 11 2011 04:14 Eschaton wrote: There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
But the door I truly want won't be opened.
How do you know what you truly want.
You are barely 20, you haven't even finished college, or had a real job, or had a real life.
Your life has consisted of a video game and watching anime.
You don't know what you want. You need to leave your cocoon and get with reality before you decide to go further down the rabbit hole.
I have trouble understanding this kind of post, and i think you should, too. If you merely look at what you are saying, it sounds as if you are concerned for EE's well being and are therefore posting to warn him away and ultimately get him onto a path to happiness, or more happiness then the path he is proposing will lead to. But if you care about him as another human being and are trying to protect him, why is the tone of your post wholly condescending and harsh? I would have to say it is because you posted this to justify your life decisions or at the least your beliefs, to add to yourself by telling him how hes wrong. His reality doesnt match up with yours, does it threaten you? Look deeply.
But he's right. Reality can be harsh. The OP just needs to keep these two mindsets in his head. There's an overwhelming amount of people that drop out of school to chase their dream of becoming a rock star(something even mainstream society knows well about) and end up working a life they hate because they didn't have what it takes and luck wasn't on their side.
On December 11 2011 04:14 Eschaton wrote: There is a whole world of possibilities under the umbrella of Math and Science. I started out in Radiation Health Physics / Nuclear Engineering and switched to Biochemistry & Biophysics in my 2nd year because I found something that did the opposite of crush my soul, even though it took a lot of work. I think you'd be keeping a lot more doors open by staying in school than by trying for a DOTA career. My 2c.
But the door I truly want won't be opened.
How do you know what you truly want.
You are barely 20, you haven't even finished college, or had a real job, or had a real life.
Your life has consisted of a video game and watching anime.
You don't know what you want. You need to leave your cocoon and get with reality before you decide to go further down the rabbit hole.
I have trouble understanding this kind of post, and i think you should, too. If you merely look at what you are saying, it sounds as if you are concerned for EE's well being and are therefore posting to warn him away and ultimately get him onto a path to happiness, or more happiness then the path he is proposing will lead to. But if you care about him as another human being and are trying to protect him, why is the tone of your post wholly condescending and harsh? I would have to say it is because you posted this to justify your life decisions or at the least your beliefs, to add to yourself by telling him how hes wrong. His reality doesnt match up with yours, does it threaten you? Look deeply.
But he's right. Reality can be harsh. The OP just needs to keep these two mindsets in his head. There's an overwhelming amount of people that drop out of school to chase their dream of becoming a rock star(something even mainstream society knows well about) and end up working a life they hate because they didn't have what it takes and luck wasn't on their side.
Hes "right"? About what? That its a risk? Yes, it is. But perhaps you didnt read my post. Its paradoxical to scream at someone about how dangerous this decision that they are making which will only effect them is. If you feel the need to warn him away, you care for his well-being. If you care for his well-being why are you screaming? I explained why in my post, and i only posted it hoping that the person i quoted would awake to realize their behavior.
just play sc2..... hons competetive scene is nearly nonexistant.Sure dota2 will be bigger but doesnt change the fact that this game is designed for casual players and valve will not change that (see team fortress 2,cs:source). I know u played dota aswell, just like me. But look what i archieved in my "dota career", i won 4 times dreamhack, around 8 lan events and countless online tours(esl majors). Every team i played in was a top team and regarded as the dominant team in their respective era. The same shit i did in hon, but it was much shorter like 1 and 1/2 year compared to 4/5 years of dota. And u know what i got????...... NOTHING....literally.They promised me alot of money and all this kind of shit, but after all nothing happened. So think twice and dont hope for dota 2.....START BE A MAN and play starcraft 2, where the real competition is.
On December 11 2011 07:54 Cel.erity wrote: Yeah DotA isn't really the type of game where playing 12 hours a day is going to help you. Way better to play with the same people for a few hours a day, beyond the 5th or 6th hour everything is going to blur together and you'll learn nothing. This is contrary to Starcraft where you need a really high level of mechanical skill and robotic habits; DotA is more about awareness, and that only degrades over long practice periods.
Youve made up all of this information just in time to post it. Are you aware that DotA is such a huge esport in china that even people who do not play videogames know of it? Its similiar to bw in korea. Are you also aware that in china they have teamhouses in which many dota teams practice for 10+ hours a day? The chinese are also the best in the world.
they practice 10 + hours a day but this is mostly for teamwork. i meant to stay at the TOP of dota in terms of skill, you dont have to practice like sc2. you can take a break for a week or a month and come back and not become 'rusty" etc. obviously this isnt over a span of a year or so but taking a couple months break from sc2 would hurt you drastically. look at vigoss, he took a break from dota for quite a long time but came back and was still good individually within a few games. ya his playstyle didnt fit well but after playing ih games with him, i could still see some of that "godly" skills he used to portray and he was a remarkable IH league player but not the best competitive player. they train mostly to try new strategies and to work better together.
On December 11 2011 03:05 Sufficiency wrote: Oh the irony. Engineering Science at UofT is its best program. Once you graduate you are employable anywhere.
not really i cant be a pro gamer
My point is that your program is VERY GOOD. Few people get in it every year. I am sure you know that. It's UofT's best program by far, unless you count their medical school.
Your statement about your courses that DESTROY YOUR SOUL is way too biased.
u dont need to come from a rts background to be good in starcraft 2, only players with weak minds think like that. mechanics of sc2 are way more simplified u can not compare them to broodwar. Babyknight also came from dota and look how far he went already, i know hes not a top player or something but he is definatly trying and on his way up,or look at desrow, same thing he wasnt even good in dota (no offence). Actually i play it already for a good amount of time, and im placed in Grandmasters EU ( at least something to start things off). And i guess u never really won major lan events in your life so u dont know about all the taxes u have to pay and also a good cut of your money goes to your management.
1.6 million dollar is still good money regardless, but once in a year, and its only worth if for top 3 imo. Just seems not a good deal at all
babyknight is pretty damn good, he placed 3rd in his group for wcg, sadly he couldnt advance.
there'll be definitely be big tourneys for dota2 when game hits retail. and valve is hosting the international every year. possibly with even bigger prize pool
On December 11 2011 08:42 LevenT wrote: why edit your post bulba?
u dont need to come from a rts background to be good in starcraft 2, only players with weak minds think like that. mechanics of sc2 are way more simplified u can not compare them to broodwar. Babyknight also came from dota and look how far he went already, i know hes not a top player or something but he is definatly trying and on his way up,or look at desrow, same thing he wasnt even good in dota (no offence). Actually i play it already for a good amount of time, and im placed in Grandmasters EU ( at least something to start things off). And i guess u never really won major lan events in your life so u dont know about all the taxes u have to pay and also a good cut of your money goes to your management.
1.6 million dollar is still good money regardless, but once in a year, and its only worth if for top 3 imo. Just seems not a good deal at all
Damn, I used to love watching your matches..you're still one of the greatest legends in dota, it's very disheartening when you take everything into account and apply reality to it. I hope you're wrong about DotA 2, though, I hope the scene explodes and players can actually make an honest living off of playing and competing, very sad to hear that the same didn't happen for you though. I hope to see you stomp in SC2, I'll be rooting for you! LevenT fighting!
I remember the good old days of DotA with you Levent, but I think you and other players in your era who were considered gods of the game back then were a bit unfortunate, because even though Dota has been around for many years, it was never taken seriously. I guess the gaming organizations couldn't market it it properly, at least not in NA and EU. China is a different story. But looks like that's going to change, in fact it already is, as so many gaming organizations picked up a lot of teams in the last few months and quite a few tournaments were organized and the streams averaged between 10-15k viewers. Its not so bad for a game that is still in its closed beta stage.
What DotA needs once its released is a lot of tournaments and most importantly, professional casters, coz right now, none of the Dota casters are even close to say day[9], artosis, tasteless .. who imo bring in the viewers and increase the game popularity.
OP, you can tune in to Dendi's own3d stream (averages between 2-3k) and see what he is doing. I'm sure you know who he is, but like some other people have said here, its only his skill that brings in the viewers, but mostly his personality.
On December 11 2011 08:42 LevenT wrote: why edit your post bulba?
u dont need to come from a rts background to be good in starcraft 2, only players with weak minds think like that. mechanics of sc2 are way more simplified u can not compare them to broodwar. Babyknight also came from dota and look how far he went already, i know hes not a top player or something but he is definatly trying and on his way up,or look at desrow, same thing he wasnt even good in dota (no offence). Actually i play it already for a good amount of time, and im placed in Grandmasters EU ( at least something to start things off). And i guess u never really won major lan events in your life so u dont know about all the taxes u have to pay and also a good cut of your money goes to your management.
1.6 million dollar is still good money regardless, but once in a year, and its only worth if for top 3 imo. Just seems not a good deal at all
Damn, I used to love watching your matches..you're still one of the greatest legends in dota, it's very disheartening when you take everything into account and apply reality to it. I hope you're wrong about DotA 2, though, I hope the scene explodes and players can actually make an honest living off of playing and competing, very sad to hear that the same didn't happen for you though. I hope to see you stomp in SC2, I'll be rooting for you! LevenT fighting!
thanks for cheering for me, im flattered ~~
believe me when i say that i also hope for dota 2 getting big as a competetive game, else i wouldnt have put so much effort into dota and play it for 5 years(with hon 6 years). But i made my experience and thats why i have to give dota 2 only a very little chance.I just cant waste more time in my life.
On December 11 2011 02:42 EternaLEnVy wrote: Sadly, I don't even have a DotA 2 key, and even if I did I'm debating whether I should even play it for a while, the game is too betaish and it's definitely not the best way to get better. I'm sure I'll play some games with people like Tarano are on but other than that it might be a waste of time in terms of practice.
I wonder if people would even watch DotA streams (not dota 2)
I would watch a DotA stream! hell DotA is one of my favorite games of all time, stream that shit you'd have at least 1 viewer!
name any other esport where getting 7th in a tourney of 16 wins u 25k. 5k for each person. i dont know what you are correlating exactly. you are first saying that the reason winning all those dota tourneys felt like shit was cause you got barely any money. Is this dota's fault? Its shady sponsors/shady tournaments and shady people. your basically telling him to play a game where the competition is literally impossible to make any money. Success in sc2 can be correlated to beating a top korean or top player in the MLG open bracket. you think all these players that arent at the top aim to only win MLG? The odds against them are ridiculous. you have players like Forbs (my na dota friend who recently beat drewbie and spades in the mlg open bracket) I think thats success. He beat two professional players who have even went to korea to train. did he win any money off it no?he actually had to pay to get there in terms of travel/entrance fee. so basically you are first saying you wanted something in return besides having won the glory of tournaments. then you say switch to sc2 but you realize that winning money in sc2 is ridiculously hard. you can say grandmaster this grandmaster that. desrow has improved a lot in sc2. but will he win any ridiculous amount of money off tournaments? he will be the first to say most of his money is off streaming/coaching which is nothing related to competition.
i just dont understand your point. you tell him to switch to sc2. you say that dota has never paid off anything. but you do realize if you want money, first off Esports shouldnt be your priority. I dont care about how much money i win in this game. im playing it for fun and for the competition. i just think its a lot more realistic for me to be better at dota than it is in Sc2.most sc2 pros besides the top names barely make any salary nor do they have a sufficient stream of income from sc2. and most of their income is off sponsorships and salary in the first place. not tournament wins. and no need to go for some insults "blah youve never won a lan, you dont know anything about lans" that has nothing to do with the argument at hand
like what is your goal? you want to win? or is being grandmasters your idea of glory in sc2 and thriving in competition. my friend in college is in grandmasters NA and in top masters in th ekorean server. he plays all day/skips classes and is addicted more than anything. but even he realizes that making it big in sc2 is ridiculously low. ya babyknight is a good sc2 player but what has he done exactly? How much has he won. i doubt navi is paying him a 1k a month salary let alone a 200 dollar/month salary. he hasnt marketed himself at all and anyone outside of dota would barely know him in the sc2 scene.
dota was a mod, a custom game. it had an engine that didnt even support it openly or commercially. you are basing the validity of that compared to a new engine of a company that has probably been the most successful in terms of games (up there with blizzard) and has promised to provide millions of dollars of prize money each year for a tournament in one of the biggest gaming conventions of the year.
No offense man, but you're kind of an attention who*e atm. If you want to become a progamer then do it! It's your own life. If some random people on TL thinks it's a stupid idea? so what? Most of them probably doesn't risk their normal lives to take a chance and live out their dream. Even if you really wanted to become a progamer, others saying you can't wouldn't change that - just saying.
I think you should talk to some potential teammates and make sure you get people who are in the same place / level of commitment as you are, since DotA is a team game unlike SC2. I'd imagine it would be a major let down if you were the only one in a team taking it seriously enough to take it full time while forced to practice solo most of the time because your teammates have school / other commitments.
and if you bring up the lan thing, two of my friends and teammates, 1437 and Universe both went to the international. they placed 7th and got 25k in cash. Each got 4k and the sponsor did not take anything. the taxes were minimum. after them they got around 3.3k they received the money within 2 weeks of coming back from the event. demon made even more. around 14k. management did not take anything(different circumstances) and taxes were only around 1k which is so small compared to the prize. might be different in denmark or w/e so dont understand what you are trying to get by that statement.
On December 11 2011 09:33 S_SienZ wrote: Just to point something out:
I think you should talk to some potential teammates and make sure you get people who are in the same place / level of commitment as you are, since DotA is a team game unlike SC2. I'd imagine it would be a major let down if you were the only one in a team taking it seriously enough to take it full time while forced to practice solo most of the time because your teammates have school / other commitments.
That said, good luck. Hope you do well.
That's y I don't really want to settle on a team till I'm actually extremely good. If anyone team where to be able to accept me as I am now, they probably aren't what I'm looking for in the long run.
Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
People are actually saying winning money in SC2 is easier than doing so in DotA?? What world do you live in? Top 10 NA GM ladder have no shot at Code B Koreans and you say they'll make cash in SC2, LOL.
Given that DotA is a team game, and as such your defects can be complemented by other teammates, it's only logical that it's more likely to do well in DotA compared to SC2, in which individual skill requirements are completely off the charts. Dota's problems have always been the following, in terms of the pro-scene:
-Sponsors -Tournament organizers -Unstable teams, probably because of sponsors -Lack of an "anchor" to the proscene
With Valve behind Dota 2 I expect all of these to change. If you ask me, do I have a better shot at SC2 or Dota, from the same starting point, clearly the answer is Dota.
I don't doubt right now there's more money in SC2, that's very, very clear. But getting there is EXTREMELY difficult.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
If you feel it's the best thing you should do, do it! Don't let yourself get limited by others' opinions, forget the money (as long as you can sustain your lifestyle) and pursue the vision.
Successful people weren't asking others what to do, they just did what they thought would turn out to be best and succeeded at it. Any good idea not used is a wasted potential if you ask me.Better to do than not to do when it comes to creating something new.
whatever bulba lets not loop our discussions here,its non-sense. But at least i know now, why u never cud become a successful player in dota,stay closeminded bro(as u americans would say it).
I'm just going to reiterate the fact that you don't need to go full time to go big in DotA. The mechanics simply don't require you to practice hours and hours a day.
What you do need is connections to equally skilled players that you also have good chemistry with. Make the connections before you go for this.
In regards to Bulba vs LevenT, The International is as ideal as it gets in terms of professionalism/payment/organization and no other tournaments will match it in terms of prize money and organization. But organizations have come a long way in a short time since Levent won his DotA tournaments. The future for DotA is much brighter than Levent makes it out to be, but The International is a terrible standard to expect.
Yo Levent. I can guarantee you that SK, Fnatic, etc made BARELY AS MUCH money this year on counterstrike than Navi's Dota PLAYERS DID INDIVIDUALLY.
The record for single season winnings for a team was held by Fnatic in 2009 until Navi broke it in 2010 (The year that Arbalet sponsored a ton of high money tournaments which have since closed, and therefore this record will stand for a long long time) with a grand total of 189,000 dollars, for a whole year, winning almost every single major tournament.
Each player for NaVi made 200k for The International, and that was one tournament, they've been placing consistently at the top in every tournament they play in so far, and going on.
EACH PLAYER, made more than the whole counterstrike team did in one year.
Also, pro gamers won't make their living off of prize money, you're telling a guy who was formerly a top HoN player to play SC2, and then what? Not only is he never going to be on the level of the top 10 players in SC2, in order to make that sort of prize money, he won't be able to get the stream numbers that we see out of top players, who are able to make a living due to a combination of streaming.
It is easier to get 500 viewers to watch you play Dota 2 than it is for SC2 right now, just given the fact that SC2 is overly saturated in the stream view market.
Dota 2's future will not be based around prize money, it will be based on how the players make a living, and that will be based on streaming. Do you genuinely think the OP can hop onto SC2 and get viewer numbers when he is already established in this game and genre moreso than he'll be in SC2? Get out of here dude.
its fine, go out in a bang with your insult and arguments full of fallacy gday to you sir mr big pro ks int ex mher levent (omg look im doing the same thing as u!) ciao and second off i dont think ive ever played with you nor do i think you have played with me.
and also its ironic your calling me close minded when your entire argument is warning this kid to not try his hand out in competitive dota 2 and to just move to sc2 when he has not even stated he likes playing RTS games nor has any skill in them
On December 11 2011 10:06 Zlasher wrote: Yo Levent. I can guarantee you that SK, Fnatic, etc made BARELY AS MUCH money this year on counterstrike than Navi's Dota PLAYERS DID INDIVIDUALLY.
The record for single season winnings for a team was held by Fnatic in 2009 until Navi broke it in 2010 (The year that Arbalet sponsored a ton of high money tournaments which have since closed, and therefore this record will stand for a long long time) with a grand total of 189,000 dollars, for a whole year, winning almost every single major tournament.
Each player for NaVi made 200k for The International, and that was one tournament, they've been placing consistently at the top in every tournament they play in so far, and going on.
EACH PLAYER, made more than the whole counterstrike team did in one year.
Also, pro gamers won't make their living off of prize money, you're telling a guy who was formerly a top HoN player to play SC2, and then what? Not only is he never going to be on the level of the top 10 players in SC2, in order to make that sort of prize money, he won't be able to get the stream numbers that we see out of top players, who are able to make a living due to a combination of streaming.
It is easier to get 500 viewers to watch you play Dota 2 than it is for SC2 right now, just given the fact that SC2 is overly saturated in the stream view market.
Dota 2's future will not be based around prize money, it will be based on how the players make a living, and that will be based on streaming. Do you genuinely think the OP can hop onto SC2 and get viewer numbers when he is already established in this game and genre moreso than he'll be in SC2? Get out of here dude.
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead.
OK u guys seem to just twist my words. But thats just fine. Let me put my statement here very simple. U CAN NOT CALL YOURSELF A PROFFESSIONAL PLAYER IF YOU ARE A TOP HON/DOTA/DOTA2/LOL PLAYER. IN STARCRAFT 2 U CAN. PERIOD. i hope u guys understood it now and if not.... u just simply have no experience what it means to be on the top.
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead.
Which supports a max of like 72 viewers. And for tournament/custom games, a max of 4.
So imagine a scenario where every starcraft 2 viewer lost up to 75 viewers, Uh oh.
hey i remember this guy called milkies who made a post similiar to this on reddit where hes like "if you dont play brood war or sc2, you dont play an esport. the only esport is starcraft and other games are not." i think he got ostracized by the entire sc2 community on forums, on the popular radio show (State of the game) and eventually he resigned from his spot as MLG's top translator because of this. I think idra flamed him, incontrol called him out, and even day9 said it was not a smart idea.. you my friend are a fucking dumbass you are calling me close minded and say this on the same forums that flamed him out of the community. you have no idea what irony means you have no idea how to construct an argument you are an angry aggressive dumb stubborn German (HEY I USED A STEREOTYPE LIKE YOU DID HEHE IM AN AMERICAN IM A RETARD)
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
The game has lasted for like 8 years now and is extremely popular in the largest market in the world, much moreso than SC2. To suggest this new version would dry up in 5 years is a big short sighted, it's lifespan would be roughly that of SC2's (maybe 65-80% as long as SC2's), but it has developer support this time. But that is a pretty irrelevant point since nobody is a top player that long anyways.
In 8 years, Na'Vi will have a new lineup, so will MYM, and EG. Suggesting that SC2 is a better idea than Dota 2 because of the lifespan of the game is stupid because the lifespan of the game will outlast the lifespan of the player.
Also, why tell Bulba to clean up his post when Levent's have been as if not more inflammatory lol.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wiser
and the reason i replied like that compared to my first post where i didnt even target anyone was because he started calling me out and insulting me. im not going to sit by and let him make statements full of irony and ignorance. ya he was a player that got carried by his team some 5 years ago what gives him the right to talk down to anyone?
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead.
Which supports a max of like 72 viewers. And for tournament/custom games, a max of 4.
So imagine a scenario where every starcraft 2 viewer lost up to 75 viewers, Uh oh.
I doubt tourneys would allow you to stream from FP view anyway.
Did not know that the viewer cap was intended to be permanent. My assumption was that valve would eventually expand it. My apologies then.
I never meant my comments to be offensive in any way.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
And the most ignorant thing is if you say that people dont regard top hon/dota 2/dota players as professional, why would EG (the richest sponsor in esports) pay EG flights all the way to china, to in essence TRAIN. pay them to malaysia including a standin, pay playmates ticket back to europe and pay for their hotel/food/travel each and every day. why would all these sponsors suddenly flock to dota 2? to sponsor teams that did fairly well in dota 1 but not substantially well to lans like Kiev/dreamhack/ESWC. they realize that this newly built game is here to stay. again 5 years?? who knows what games will exist 5 years in the future. do you think the current sc2 players will still be at the top in 5 years?? when jaedong/flash bisu and the other a/b teamers join sc2. your basing your entire argument on factors you cant account for and have no proof about
but go ahead br0, use those european flame tactics.
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead.
Which supports a max of like 72 viewers. And for tournament/custom games, a max of 4.
So imagine a scenario where every starcraft 2 viewer lost up to 75 viewers, Uh oh.
I doubt tourneys would allow you to stream from FP view anyway.
Did not know that the viewer cap was intended to be permanent. My assumption was that valve would eventually expand it. My apologies then.
I never meant my comments to be offensive in any way.
Look on the right side of your teamliquid screen lol. There is no reason to assume that it'll be much different than SC2, or HoN for that matter, you can stream the tournaments for some and not others, its usually the streamers choice since they don't want to get stream cheated, sometimes they throw up an overlay to cover the minimap, sometimes they don't stream at all. In the end though the viewers come for matchmaking play, the viewers will still be there.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
Talking more about the international. Since valve paid for flights/trips/food/hotel, players felt entitled to their money. I know universe and 1437 didnt give any money to ok nirvana.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
Also, not every team takes a % of the prize money, usually its never more than 10% of prize money and it'll never exceed the price of what the team is paying in terms of travel (flight hotel).
Navi didn't take any EG has said before that they don't take any, etc.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
my "optimism" is based on proof of sponsors picking up teams for dota 2, tournaments popping up in beta on a weekly basis and popularity of the game. anyways regardless of what we say, dota is here to stay. if you want to compare #'s, China's views of dota tournaments are so much more significant than sc2 in korea nd outside korea. If by sole numbers, dota is the most popular esport in terms of viewership because of China. Sgamer site visits everyday easily eclipse other forums. ya ucan compare populations but i know for a fact that teams will start switching to dota 2 as well. this will be upcoming but Ehome will feature a roster solely dedicated to Dota 2 soon. Same with other teams switching. Perfect_cat (ehome player) told me that a lot of Chinese pros even enjoy dota 2 now compared to their original reaction. Their original reaction is kind of like euro teams to dota 2 as well. Most of them hated it at first but now everyone loves it except for one guy here and there. same can be said for starcraft 2 as well but people were forced to switch anyways. if more teams go to China, to live in houses similiar to ones in sc2 ( what foreign team even has a house in korea yet for a long time tho in sc2? FXO had one for a bit but wasnt that just the gom house?), think of the possibilites. eg has improved drastically just off a month in china. giving close series to DK/panda/nirvana.cn its clearly not just optimism but just common sense
but anyways levent, time to stop living in the past.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
As a fellow UofT student (lifesci) I wish you the best of luck with your Dota2 career. EngSci is extremely tough and I hope you made the right choice in deciding that it is not for you. Good luck friend!
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
What proof do you have that it's different than before? Hype is hype, I have yet to see anything substantial. The EG example is promising, but I have yet to see any kind of self-sustaining model in DotA in contrast to say SC2.
Edit: Sponsors picking up teams is just an example of hype, more so picking it up before a title is released. Just because said sponsors are here now doesn't mean they'll be there down the line. Could it get better? Sure. Could it get worse? Sure.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
What proof do you have that it's different than before? Hype is hype, I have yet to see anything substantial. The EG example is promising, but I have yet to see any kind of self-sustaining model in DotA in contrast to say SC2.
Edit: Sponsors picking up teams is just an example of hype, more so picking it up before a title is released. Just because said sponsors are here now doesn't mean they'll be there down the line. Could it get better? Sure. Could it get worse? Sure.
at least somebody here can see the true situation.Thanks, i respect you.
I never said it was proof that the game would succeed, only that it's good evidence, considering that this amount of "hype" has never happened to previous game releases.
On December 11 2011 10:14 LevenT wrote: OK u guys seem to just twist my words. But thats just fine. Let me put my statement here very simple. U CAN NOT CALL YOURSELF A PROFFESSIONAL PLAYER IF YOU ARE A TOP HON/DOTA/DOTA2/LOL PLAYER. IN STARCRAFT 2 U CAN. PERIOD. i hope u guys understood it now and if not.... u just simply have no experience what it means to be on the top.
If you are a professional dota player in China you cant call yourself a professional player?
The Dota industry there is so robust and lucrative. It is even close to Korean broodwar and i can argue it has about the same amount of money as SC2.
It's just that they don't really cater to the Western/Global Audiences that much so the "outside world" don't talk about them.
So i think your statement don't stand. I agree if you put the word Western there though. Not right now at least
On December 11 2011 11:24 Ognam wrote: I never said it was proof that the game would succeed, only that it's good evidence, considering that this amount of "hype" has never happened to previous game releases.
No, people aren't saying it's good evidence, people are jumping to the conclusions. They're saying look at what has happened, then its common sense that this will happen without any substantial proof that it actually will.
And what? CoD Modern Warfare franchise had similar amounts of hype.
Edit:
LevenT's other point focuses on the fact that SC2 is a single player game, you are what you make of your situation. That is not true at all in Dota, do not even pretend it's remotely like that. If you are a top ranked player in SC2, the chances of you being sponsored and truly fit the definition of professional are very high. In DotA, we can't even agree how to judge a players skill let alone actually measure it with some metric or group of metrics.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
You can't even formulate cohesive sentences. I don't think anyone takes your opinion seriously because your logic is so weak. Please don't speak on e-sports as if you know everything just because you played DotA and have seen a little bit of the 1 year old SC2 bubble.
On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote: Bulba dont make me laugh here. i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments. First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that). And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all. And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does.
..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine.
The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management.
you're the fucking Grinch bud.
also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere.
and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place.
i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
What proof do you have that it's different than before? Hype is hype, I have yet to see anything substantial. The EG example is promising, but I have yet to see any kind of self-sustaining model in DotA in contrast to say SC2.
Edit: Sponsors picking up teams is just an example of hype, more so picking it up before a title is released. Just because said sponsors are here now doesn't mean they'll be there down the line. Could it get better? Sure. Could it get worse? Sure.
at least somebody here can see the true situation.Thanks, i respect you.
dont mistake him acting like the devils advocate for the statements you said. yours had no proof, and no basis of argument and were just wild accusations and exemplary of middle school logic. keep maintaining those delusions of grandeur and thinking your relevancy is still alive. =/
On December 11 2011 11:24 Ognam wrote: I never said it was proof that the game would succeed, only that it's good evidence, considering that this amount of "hype" has never happened to previous game releases.
No, people aren't saying it's good evidence, people are jumping to the conclusions. They're saying look at what has happened, then its common sense that this will happen without any substantial proof that it actually will.
And what? CoD Modern Warfare franchise had similar amounts of hype.
Edit:
LevenT's other point focuses on the fact that SC2 is a single player game, you are what you make of your situation. That is not true at all in Dota, do not even pretend it's remotely like that. If you are a top ranked player in SC2, the chances of you being sponsored and truly fit the definition of professional are very high. In DotA, we can't even agree how to judge a players skill let alone actually measure it with some metric or group of metrics.
exactly, and thats why i advice him to play starcraft 2 because i dont want him to make the same mistake that i did and falsely put effort into sth that just remained to be a dream at the end. And with the right will and passion anybody in this world can become good at sc2. So be on the safer side and play starcraft, start become a man.
Chance on you fulfilling your dream in a game like dota are 50/50 probably even less, no matter how good you are.
Edit: and dtz thats what i mean anyways, u see i dont even mention china, becoz china is a community on its own. Obviously the competition in China is much bigger but here in the west we dont really profit from their proffessionalism. they host their own events and occasionally they invite teams like eg or navi but mostly they cant go there becoz of visas,exams and whatnot, and basically its a bitch to travel to a country with such closed borders like china and yet alone live there and organize hotels and stuff like that.
Lol I think bulba said all that is need to be said. Take his good advice when you still can. But No one can make decisions for you, I'll watch your stream regardless. Goodluck
i find it so funny you are stating that getting into the top of the sc2 scene is as easy as you make it sound. You dont factor in so many possibilites. First, you have to enjoy the game. My friend Aaron Kim used to play broodwar for quite a while. he was ranked A in ICCUP. he quit his job/quit his school and decided to pursue sc2. He was ranked higher than players like huk in broodwar and had a knack for being good at RTS games. This was around 4-5 months ago. he played day in and day out. i think he had a record of like 1000 ladder games played in a span of 3 weeks which is insane. He tried out for complexity's training school on the name xxelitexx. on ladder, he beat top players like grubby/drewbie/Machine/DESROW/incontrol. he made it to the top of the masters ladder (before grandmaster) and was consistently matched up versus top pro players. Eventually he tried his hands in these weekly tournaments that sc2 has. This cup/that cup,etc. placed decently in some and beat some good players but the problem was that he had already spent close to 3 months by this time to get this far. ANd he still was not close to the level of the top progamers in terms of popularity/skill. This can be said of so many other players in sc2. look at the ladder. Count how many grandmaster players there are/masters players there are that are capable of making it to the top. theres countless amounts and sc2 is such a volatile game that hanging your future on this pin is so risky. to get famous/to be professional, you need an assortment of luck/skill and personality. at this stage the scene is so developed that its hard for new players to get any light. people want to watch huk, to watch idra, to watch nestea. players that dominated the beta were weeded out because they didnt have what it took to keep in the race with these other guys. What did they lack? work ethic? practice? some gene ^^? the competition from korea is also there. know that how hard you practice and how much competition you face, a korean is facing competition 10x better and practicing with 10x more efficiency. Eventaully he (my friend) realized how much time he had wasted in all of this. To get to the level he was at took a lot but to actually break out to the top of the professional scene was way too much work. TO become that famous player ( that professional) who is sponsored by EG/Mouz/dignitas/liquid took an assortment of so many factors. If breaking into the scene and actually making money of sc2 is as easy as you say, why does my friend and the thousands of other players in grandmaster/top masters not meet the status of those top pros? its retarded to say that skill is the only factor to make you famous in sc2. TO even acquire more skill, you need to have proper training partners which require a team. to make it sound so easy. Even getting into those top tournaments where all the sponsors are watching now is ridiculously hard. NASL qualifiers have so many top players that it would be against all odds a player that is unknown would make it. IPL features top koreans. MLG has so many koreans and top players in the open bracket. It amuses me to think that you can picture yourself so easily to become a top pro. and what qualifies a pro in your eyes in sc2? winning versus some famous player in a random bo3 in a tournament? how much coverage do you actually think you will get after the lights dimmer down.
I bet against all odds that you will have no success in Sc2. why? cause the scene is growing. players that are better than you now will keep getting better. new players that are joining the scene from these top korean teams will overshadow everyone as korean sponsors are more eager to create partnerships with Western sponsors and send those players to all foreign competitions. Theres a reason we see the same players at the top in sc2/ the same players winning. you have a few breakout starts like Gatored that appeared out of no where and took out top Koreans but thats one in a million. you are either ignorant or have some delusions on how successful you will be. you lack all logic. you think that because at some time you were relevant in a game that you know what it is to be on the top? hell you shit on dota being so unprofessional. that just contradicts your statement that you were ever at the top.
Best of luck man, our culture seems to encourage people to look down on people who "do nothing with their lives" but following your dream is something that most people are too afraid to do
well u still dont understand anything what i just said here. a guy like judicator can easily tell why you are only wasting my time with your 300 words essay on your friend and sc2. Because its too tiring for me to keep telling u.
As amusing as it is to see levent's point totally misunderstood, I'm glad every top player who posted here could tell the OP how foolish his idea is due to the nature of dota as a team game.
Now there really isn't anything left to discuss in the thread.
ok since you think i am not understanding what you are saying, i will respond to each of your points.
"exactly, and thats why i advice him to play starcraft 2 because i dont want him to make the same mistake that i did and falsely put effort into sth that just remained to be a dream at the end."
will it be a dream now? how do you know? you are basing your history with dota 4 years ago to being a dream now, 4 years later on a new engine/new marketing strategy and on a company that supports it. I can say that you playing sc2 and being successful will be a dream too. Dont give me bullshit. you will remain more irrelevant in that game than my friend and he hasnt played sc2 in 3 months.
"And with the right will and passion anybody in this world can become good at sc2."
my 300 word essay explained this one. as long as your middle school education can read it
"So be on the safer side and play starcraft, start become a man."
yo i got nothing to say to that. its just a fucking retarded statement but thats been expected of you
"Chance on you fulfilling your dream in a game like dota are 50/50 probably even less, no matter how good you are."
my 300 word essay explains this 1 too. you can say how much you want about fulfilling your dream in dota. how long your argument may be. but take it by my word, you and anyone else that is a no one and has only played ladder will have a lower chance of fulfilling your dream in sc2 than in dota. and dream is what? being a pro? r u saying that it is harder to be a pro in dota than it is in sc2? look at yourself. you were considered a pro in dota. you are irrelevant in sc2. but then again you said that you cant be a pro in dota, so technically you were never a pro to begin with.. and that means essentially you cant be a pro in anything but sc2 esport related. ya nice logic.
hope this tried to summarize what you were saying since your middle school reading comprehension doesnt understand the 300 word essays br0
or who knows, what you were saying with your sentences escapes everyone(myself? zlasher? other people who have read this thread and agree that you are clueless?) and only individuals like judicator can understand your logic.
On December 11 2011 12:09 BuLba wrote: i find it so funny you are stating that getting into the top of the sc2 scene is as easy as you make it sound. You dont factor in so many possibilites. First, you have to enjoy the game. My friend Aaron Kim used to play broodwar for quite a while. he was ranked A in ICCUP. he quit his job/quit his school and decided to pursue sc2. He was ranked higher than players like huk in broodwar and had a knack for being good at RTS games. This was around 4-5 months ago. he played day in and day out. i think he had a record of like 1000 ladder games played in a span of 3 weeks which is insane. He tried out for complexity's training school on the name xxelitexx. on ladder, he beat top players like grubby/drewbie/Machine. he made it to the top of the masters ladder (before grandmaster) and was consistently matched up versus top pro players. Eventually he tried his hands in these weekly tournaments that sc2 has. This cup/that cup,etc. placed decently in some and beat some good players but the problem was that he had already spent close to 3 months by this time to get this far. ANd he still was not close to the level of the top progamers in terms of popularity/skill. This can be said of so many other players in sc2. look at the ladder. Count how many grandmaster players there are/masters players there are that are capable of making it to the top. theres countless amounts and sc2 is such a volatile game that hanging your future on this pin is so risky. to get famous/to be professional, you need an assortment of luck/skill and personality. at this stage the scene is so developed that its hard for new players to get any light. people want to watch huk, to watch idra, to watch nestea. players that dominated the beta were weeded out because they didnt have what it took to keep in the race with these other guys. What did they lack? work ethic? practice? some gene ^^? the competition from korea is also there. know that how hard you practice and how much competition you face, a korean is facing competition 10x better and practicing with 10x more efficiency. Eventaully he (my friend) realized how much time he had wasted in all of this. To get to the level he was at took a lot but to actually break out to the top of the professional scene was way too much work. TO become that famous player ( that professional) who is sponsored by EG/Mouz/dignitas/liquid took an assortment of so many factors. If breaking into the scene and actually making money of sc2 is as easy as you say, why does my friend and the thousands of other players in grandmaster/top masters not meet the status of those top pros? its retarded to say that skill is the only factor to make you famous in sc2. TO even acquire more skill, you need to have proper training partners which require a team. to make it sound so easy. Even getting into those top tournaments where all the sponsors are watching now is ridiculously hard. NASL qualifiers have so many top players that it would be against all odds a player that is unknown would make it. IPL features top koreans. MLG has so many koreans and top players in the open bracket. It amuses me to think that you can picture yourself so easily to become a top pro. and what qualifies a pro in your eyes in sc2? winning versus some famous player in a random bo3 in a tournament? how much coverage do you actually think you will get after the lights dimmer down.
I bet against all odds that you will have no success in Sc2. why? cause the scene is growing. players that are better than you now will keep getting better. new players that are joining the scene from these top korean teams will overshadow everyone as korean sponsors are more eager to create partnerships with Western sponsors and send those players to all foreign competitions. Theres a reason we see the same players at the top in sc2/ the same players winning. you have a few breakout starts like Gatored that appeared out of no where and took out top Koreans but thats one in a million. you are either ignorant or have some delusions on how successful you will be. you lack all logic. you think that because at some time you were relevant in a game that you know what it is to be on the top? hell you shit on dota being so unprofessional. that just contradicts your statement that you were ever at the top.
Getting into a team and having said team be stable is easy? At least you have control over your performance in SC2, that is not the case in Dota, you should know this coming from NA. How long have you been in NA DotA scene Bulba? 4/5 years now? How successful are you?
Also, what makes you think that the players are the top now will be the players at the top later (in either game)? Look at the turnover rates in DotA and in SC2, which would you rather take? You don't need to be a part of 5 man team to succeed in SC2. You have relatively clear paths to success if you are skilled (if the OP is skilled or capable of being a top player at all) in SC2, that is not true in DotA.
There isn't some kind of experience-based skill-gap in either game where a player can't make up the difference. The only difference is that SC2 doesn't require you to work with 4 others for your individual success while Dota 2 requires you to on multiple levels most notably at the sponsorship level.
Edit:
In any case, you still haven't shown any kind of self-sustaining model in DotA2 compared to SC2.
Edit2:
Maybe your friend wasn't just that good, was that ever a consideration?
having only a sponsorship/winning nothing/no salary? just a tag?
winning occasionally vs a pro in some tournament/some income from gaming/ a semi-respectable tag
having that prized sponsorship/ winning or placing in top of tournaments/considered a top player in NA and europe/ having a fanbase and thousands of players watching you being casted by tastosis/husky/day9
which is success in sc2? theres a huge different and gap between what the top receive and what players like my friend receive. they get a tag/ a team to practice with but no income. barely any prize winnings from those weekly tournaments which are actually getting quite hard with koreans like artist and hwangsin entering.
then in dota. what is success? if you say that success is only what navi gets, compare that to what the top of success is in sc2. it was by far easier to get what navi has now compared to what a player like huk has with his 6 figure salary or idra with his huge fanbase.
Edit: but its not just my friend, how often do you even see new players join the scene and surprise us? develop a fanbase. its always the same streamers with viewers. you have that occasional spanishiwa(his hype has lessened) or gatored (who is quite good) or coltrimaster who takes out idra. but who says they are at the success of huk.
success is such a hard term to define. there are levels. in sc2 the gap between levels of success is huge. in dota not so much. in any tournament in any idea, a team can surprise us and do well. but usually the teams doing well are the ones who practice/who have good individual skill and who have good synergy. Most of the top players usually play with themselves anyways. everytime pgg remakes a team, you know whos going to be on it. those same russians. everytime m5 remakes a team, they contain those same players. ya the scene has to maintain stable teams but proving yourself in dota is a lot easier. even playing with the top is easier. I know my teammate Universe, who was a relatively unknown player. However, i used to be friends with him before and asked him to play with me demon and fear when we played in asian leagues on RGC. his skill was recognized and he got a chance to go all the way to the international. Powernet, a player that came out of the scene recently developed a huge fanbase after his performance in MYM prime nations. its easier to mix yourself with the top in dota than it is in sc2. easier to get yourself noticed. Dota casts like joindota and front page gosugamers casts of random dota tournaments maintain 500-1.5k viewers. these are for even small tournaments. compare that to some weekly stream viewer count for a weekly sc2 tournament. the numbers are significantly lower for the latter. what im trying to say is that its way harder to get to the top in sc2 than get noticed than in dota.
Hype hype hype usually creates a bubble. Historically, Dota has never shown any sign of a sustainable business structure.
If you're basing your beliefs on Valve being the magic number here, think again. Look at CS:S, they had every intention to make it an esport, it was hyped to succeed CS1.6, but did it? that bubble burst and the scene was left in ruins
Edit: like you said, you need to mix yourself with the right people to get noticed in DotA. In SC2 you dominate with your own skill and you will get noticed. See the difference? one you rely on others, the other you rely purely on your own merits.
Im not just talking about dota here. the game is new, you can always have that argument of "hey you have not even shown any signs of sustainable business structure" what did brood war have? at the time of sc2's release, what did the starcraft community have? ive listened to enough SoTG's and watched enough brood war to realize that the broodwar scene was essentially null outside korea. u had the occasional TSL but that was it. now look at it. But im sure there was that judicator and levent who was like "HEY U HAVE SHOWN NO PROOF THAT STARCRAFT WILL BE BIG. NO PROOF THAT IT HAS A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS STRUCTURE" on the broodwar subsection." then you have those guys saying "hey korea had such a private scene, even if starcraft had a good infrastructure there, who says it can translate outside? who says that those players like nada/july/boxer would EVER come to america" thats such retarded logic. thats exactly what levent said in response to China's scene. but of course there was that guy who believed in starcraft but was scared of the obvious logic bullies on the forums similiar to me who stated that "look at the starcraft beta, its growing! it can be big outside" but then you have those judicators who say "no, still no proof yet" look back, who was right and who was wrong? ya its hard to compare both but im just using that as an example. Imagine a scene where chinese sponsors send their teams to dreamhack/eswc/MLG for dota 2. You can always play the devils advocate but that side of the argument will always be used. its the fact that Levent was being totally ignorant in his remarks (maybe his lack of english skills?? english not being his first language?) but said that dota has no future and that there is no potential. im arguing that regardless of what happens, its so ignorant to say that there will be no future and that the dota scene will continue to "fail' like it has done in the past
Edit: to ^, what im trying to say is that even if it is based on merit, the ease of finding success in dota is easier than finding the success in sc2. being successful in sc2 at the top is a huge increase from being successful at the bottom. ya the top of sc2 enjoy more glory than dota but the bottom-of the-success-players barely enjoy anything because sponsors provide most of their money to the top. the bottom just enjoy more practice partners and the occasional lan stipend here (i know because my other dota friend was sponsored by x6 (x6.shinya)) and the occasional free gear such as a mouse or headset. on the other hand, you have teams like fnatic enjoying a salary (yes a salary), all the gear from steelseries and lan stipends that are in the thousands. Their feat? beating navi in the groupstages of ESWC. They are professionally sponsored players .
"dominate with your skill" you make it sound easy to have the skill to dominate a tournament as a new player to the scene. clearly it isnt. every tournament with hundreds of players and entries to qualifiers/open bracket, you have only 1 or 2 players showing any wins let alone domination. At this point, sc2 teams qualify getting top 35 of a MLG as very successful for their lower end players. they realize that those players have such a small chance of even making it past the open bracket to the championship bracket. i DONT want to play a game where me being successful is getting top 35 of a tournament. that just shows the difficulty of the game.
success is such a hard term to define. there are levels. in sc2 the gap between levels of success is huge. in dota not so much. in any tournament in any idea, a team can surprise us and do well. but usually the teams doing well are the ones who practice/who have good individual skill and who have good synergy. Most of the top players usually play with themselves anyways. everytime pgg remakes a team, you know whos going to be on it. those same russians. everytime m5 remakes a team, they contain those same players. ya the scene has to maintain stable teams but proving yourself in dota is a lot easier. even playing with the top is easier. I know my teammate Universe, who was a relatively unknown player. However, i used to be friends with him before and asked him to play with me demon and fear when we played in asian leagues on RGC. his skill was recognized and he got a chance to go all the way to the international. Powernet, a player that came out of the scene recently developed a huge fanbase after his performance in MYM prime nations. its easier to mix yourself with the top in dota than it is in sc2. easier to get yourself noticed. Dota casts like joindota and front page gosugamers casts of random dota tournaments maintain 500-1.5k viewers. these are for even small tournaments. compare that to some weekly stream viewer count for a weekly sc2 tournament. the numbers are significantly lower for the latter. what im trying to say is that its way harder to get to the top in sc2 than get noticed than in dota.
I don't wanna get sucked into your whole argument with LevenT and Judicator, just wanna ask something regarding this ^
Factors like that are temporary. If you're optimistic about Dota's future (which is reasonably assumed if you want to make a career out of Dota 2), wouldn't it eventually get developed to that point as well? (where newer teams struggle to compete against the best of the best / most popular etc.) Factors such as judicator has pointed out, SC2 is more reliable since it's based on one person's effort while Dota is reliant on teammates which you probably won't have too much control over are persistent.
So basically, are your reasons purely for the advantage of taking up Dota over SC2 right now?
Just know that the number of people that have accomplished this vastly outnumber the amount of people that have tried (We're talking the tenths of a percent, and as an engineer you should know the significance of that xd). If you think you have what it takes and are different from everybody else, then go for it
Well, the arguments i had with LevenT was originally that dota had no future. i was surprised he would make such an accusation and responded to him. his remark was that sc2 would be more appropriate. the funny thing is in his original argument he doesnt make a mention about sc2 and its need for merit personally. he uses the description that dota has always been surrounded by shady organizations who didnt pay out and that he got nothing out of his teams victories. (teams victories stressed ^^)
his quote "But look what i achieved in my "dota career", i won 4 times dreamhack, around 8 lan events and countless online tours(esl majors). Every team i played in was a top team and regarded as the dominant team in their respective era. The same shit i did in hon, but it was much shorter like 1 and 1/2 year compared to 4/5 years of dota. And u know what i got????...... NOTHING....literally.They promised me alot of money and all this kind of shit, but after all nothing happened."
so his argument was just that. because of his previous dealings with dota, he didnt want to pursue a game where he felt that there would be no reward which is retarded to make at a time especially like now with all these tourneys popping up and actually containing legitimate sponsors (own3d/benq/valve/twitch)
then judicators point is about sc2's merit is brought up. i just responded saying that the idea of success in both games is different. sc2's success is already built on a infrastructure that has developed for the past 2 years since beta. its had time to grow and now it has a stable top level with the same players doing well. dota 2 at the moment is new. sponsors are realizing that a positive future is imminent. Case in point:EG, fnatic, mouz all sponsoring teams and providing gear/travel costs and accomodations. look at starcraft two years ago, who would have guessed it would have such a rise in terms of viewership and players getting salaries in 6 figs. getting to the top at the moment in sc2 is too difficult for the random player. viewing the future, who knows what will happen for dota 2. Who will be at the top in a few years, its hard do say. but i was mainly stating that the way LevenT suggested sc2 is a much better esport to get into now based on his past dealings with Dota is a purely wrong way of looking at things. then interests come in. to get good in sc2, you have to enjoy playing the game. Myself? i dont like playing the game as much as watching it. I get bored playing consistently. this is one of the reasons that i criticized him for telling the op to switch to sc2. playerwise, sc2 has a smaller playerbase than dota. dota is a more social game than sc2, you play with friends (which i enjoy the most). dota 2 is at its infancy. The heroes are not all transferred and even watching tournaments shows how volatile it is. Anyone can win. this is similiar to the early sc2 beta. U had players doing well in a game that was barely developed. Watch some of those beta games and see how awful those players play. Look at dota also, compare a game say now between two chinese teams=DK And IG(match is tomorrow btw!) and a match 4 years ago (levent's time). theres a huge difference in skill level/tactics and strategy. people need to let dota 2 grow, see the teams that stick around ( key factor in dota) and the teams that practice to get better. you have teams which i think are not the strongest getting sponsors but in the future if China melds its scene with ours, you have new domination. Those chinese teams along with the teams willing to train as hard as them and practice as hard as them. (EG for example now) this is like how players that have went to korea in sc2 have trained hard are showing the most results=naniwa/huk/idra/thorzain/ret. these players r the ones dominating the international scene along with the top of the korean scene. they are taking games off them and showing how training is the most important part of sc2. (naniwa at the mlg finals)
We have to wait and see how dota 2 will fare but if you want to predict when the scene gets stable (like the sc2 scene. it took a while too and no one rushed it and now its developed players that consistently do well ) , you have to wait.
well, it's kind of a given that Dota is an easier game than Starcraft 2. (relative to skill cap)
We're talking more about control, not game design. relying on others means relying on external variables, and these are variables which a player has minimal control over. Starcraft 2, you are in control of the variables that can grant you merit.
but how does that constitute one game from being a better "esport" as another game? Those external variables can be teamwork/individual play from each player on a team. thats what adds the excitement to dota. but like you are saying you have to rely on others too and being on teams before, i realize how that can add resentment to playing dota.
case in point: select used to play dota. we used to be good friends and then sc2 came out. he had always had an RTS background and said that he didnt want to play competitive dota because u had to rely on a team. he didnt like having a weak link on the team (which always exists on teams regardless of how good everyone is) and switched to sc2. but looking at the other competitive dota players. they are willing to deal with these social factors and play the game. Why? they like playing with other people in a social environment and they will sacrifice those external factors from hurting them towards playing the game.
but how does that say one game makes it a better esport or more professional like what Judicator was suggesting Levent was saying (which he clearly doesnt even mention in his arguments. instead he wants to use insults made of ignorance)?
well if levent was blaming his problems on the game that's pretty stupid ... organisations are to blame, and most important the fact that people didn't care that much, not enough audience and exposure for it to matter to them. For SC2 it's not the same thing, organisations can't afford to do that now, it's too big.
Also yeah, what's really difficult in DotA is not to be good ... it's a game with very easy mechanics, and you don't need to play all day to maitain them, once you have them you just don't really lose them ; just need to have those mechanics, the knowledge and be smart to be good. The problem is to find 4 other good players who you mash really well with and who have the same goals, and it can be really really difficult. So to the OP, do whatever you like but if you think you have to commit 100% to the game to be good etc, it's bullshit you're just fooling yourself, you may need to do this to be extremely good at SC2, you don't for DotA.
I also think DotA 2 becoming big is not really a question, they said they want to run The International every year, with the same prize pool, so that alone makes it worth it to have teams commit to practising full time to win it. As bulba said it's just a matter of time.
anyways not worth arguing anymore. we both have different opinions. he doesnt believe dota 2 will retain a successful future and i disagree. only way to know the answer is to wait and find out. i also have no idea why i replied in the first place considering most of his core argument was predicated on judicator's advocate stance and he just made himself look like a stereotyping ignorant individual. like i said, get over yourself. you think your experiences are somewhat relate-able after a 5 year gap and should be the standard for years to come.
the social aspect of dota you are referring to is a matter of game design. the control dimension that we're talking about is linked to stability. and one of the reasons why dota teams had such a hard time with sponsorship was because of team stability. I believe this won't change for DotA 2 because the causation for this instability shown in DotA 1 will remain in DotA 2.
On December 11 2011 12:37 BuLba wrote: but let me ask
what constitutes for you, success in sc2?
having only a sponsorship/winning nothing/no salary? just a tag?
winning occasionally vs a pro in some tournament/some income from gaming/ a semi-respectable tag
having that prized sponsorship/ winning or placing in top of tournaments/considered a top player in NA and europe/ having a fanbase and thousands of players watching you being casted by tastosis/husky/day9
which is success in sc2? theres a huge different and gap between what the top receive and what players like my friend receive. they get a tag/ a team to practice with but no income. barely any prize winnings from those weekly tournaments which are actually getting quite hard with koreans like artist and hwangsin entering.
then in dota. what is success? if you say that success is only what navi gets, compare that to what the top of success is in sc2. it was by far easier to get what navi has now compared to what a player like huk has with his 6 figure salary or idra with his huge fanbase.
Edit: but its not just my friend, how often do you even see new players join the scene and surprise us? develop a fanbase. its always the same streamers with viewers. you have that occasional spanishiwa(his hype has lessened) or gatored (who is quite good) or coltrimaster who takes out idra. but who says they are at the success of huk.
success is such a hard term to define. there are levels. in sc2 the gap between levels of success is huge. in dota not so much. in any tournament in any idea, a team can surprise us and do well. but usually the teams doing well are the ones who practice/who have good individual skill and who have good synergy. Most of the top players usually play with themselves anyways. everytime pgg remakes a team, you know whos going to be on it. those same russians. everytime m5 remakes a team, they contain those same players. ya the scene has to maintain stable teams but proving yourself in dota is a lot easier. even playing with the top is easier. I know my teammate Universe, who was a relatively unknown player. However, i used to be friends with him before and asked him to play with me demon and fear when we played in asian leagues on RGC. his skill was recognized and he got a chance to go all the way to the international. Powernet, a player that came out of the scene recently developed a huge fanbase after his performance in MYM prime nations. its easier to mix yourself with the top in dota than it is in sc2. easier to get yourself noticed. Dota casts like joindota and front page gosugamers casts of random dota tournaments maintain 500-1.5k viewers. these are for even small tournaments. compare that to some weekly stream viewer count for a weekly sc2 tournament. the numbers are significantly lower for the latter. what im trying to say is that its way harder to get to the top in sc2 than get noticed than in dota.
I am not getting into that line of defining success, but merely making a point about someone like yourself who have been around for a while now with relatively little to show for it despite having the individual skill to do so. I am saying SC2 has a clear model for success as a player, you have the opportunity to play in various Open tournaments to get your name out there. Your name is what identifies you as a skilled player and gives you "brand" recognition. DotA does not give you that luxury unless you are extremely talented (I would argue more talented than SC2) as a player. DotA is extremely unforgiving in that regards.
I find your line of thinking contradictory when your argument goes:
Universe made it all the International after he played with Demon and Fear, his skill was recognized and rewarded as such over a span of time. This is an extreme example, no? Then you turn around and make the argument against SC2 by calling examples of Gatored and the others as being extremely rare.
Edit:
I would also argue that the perceived skill level of the top SC2 players works in advantage of the up and coming players, if they are capable of taking sets/matches off of them in a tournament setting. It's almost instant name recognition and at the very least puts the relatively unknown player on the map.
You do not get that luxury unless you are already an established player in DotA. Fanboyism aside, when a team succeeds, how much can you attribute to a single player? Better yet, how will that player respond if he's in a different team/situation? Notice we all say team beats team, very rarely do we consistently say player beats player. That distinction becomes very important when teams break up and re-form. This is also part of the reason why I am more inclined to say that Dota 2 won't be as big as some of you think it will be. Personalities and casters make the game successful at e-sports, we really don't have prominent ones for either.
well there goes the fact that it is a team game. In NA i consider a very small amount of individuals even able to do well internationally besides fear and demon. with an actual team of american players including both fear's leadership and experience and demon's skill, i thought we could do fairly well. Even Demon admitted that the team we had for nations had some of the best teamwork hes played with before in his dota career. However, because of school/age/experience and other factors, it isnt possible. The level that those two want to play and strive to play at and the dedication they want to show towards the game is beyond what anyone else in NA can do. ive always played this game for fun and only recently (within the past half year or so after nations) thought about actually playing competitive dota seriously. realistically it was always hard for any team of na players to put aside their egos and sacrifice roles for the betterment of the team. i think in na's recent past, only EG with demon/fear/merlini actually managed a top success with farmf4fame some time ago and the recent Nations victory for our team. these have been the only successes of the NA scene in quite some time besides pokerstars(demons) play at SMM. fear did this on his current roster where he has become a pure support player which has been totally different than any of his past roles. i can see how you state that sc2 has a clear road to success without the politics of creating teams/dealing with each other. However, the fact is that being successful in the current pool of players in sc2 consistently to actually make something of yourself is quite difficult. you have the few breakout starts but they never consistently stay at the top. Sc2 markets players as names while dota markets the team as a whole. dota 1 didnt really even set up a system for NA. besides CEVO like 2 years ago, there hasnt ever been any motivation or system for North america in dota. the opportunities we all had were minimal and i think that is the problem you state according to success. However, now there will be more opportunities. compared to the successful tournaments that ran only twice a year, now tournaments are popping up weekly. This will allow more breakout stars in the dota 2 scene hopefully. This coincides with what you stated about various Open tournaments in starcraft 2. The competition in those open tournaments are a lot harder than what would be the current competition in dota tournaments. you have the few top teams but you dont have those top chinese teams participating. In the sc2 open tournaments such as nasl (other tournaments as well)qualifiers, the chances of a korean winning are quite huge. its harder to be noticed. but with dota 2's scene rising, these opportunities will hopefully present itself and more players will be known.
I dont think it was ever a problem of dota being unforgiving but the fact that dota 1 never had many opportunities. dota 2 will hopefully fix that. losing a tournament in dota 1 caused you to wait 3 months for the next one. Kind of like brood war where there were only a few important foreigner tourneys (WCG/TSL). So in other words, wait to see how the scene grows, See the different opportunities players have now that sponsors are being serious about dota and then evaluate from there no reason to predict this or that
On December 10 2011 15:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: anime ftw
Some people fit 2-3 commercials between sc2 games cus ladder takes a while to find.
45 minutes to find a game pick and play? I'm guessing it's that high cus u'r so good. Perhaps if u get a nice following and they (dota players) understand that it's hard to find a game, you can warn them to turn down their volumes and so you can play continuous commercials until it's time to play (tho u'll keep needing to send commercials, but u could get a LOT of money).
Also I'm sure your $0.02 is wrong. 2 cents times 1000 viewers is $20. I remember it is either $0.002 or $0.001, which would be $2 or $1 respectively. If you can have 100 viewers and have them stay during 40 minutes of 80 commercials, you can get $16 in that time. If you keep on even 50 viewers (should be realistic) then you get $8 which is pretty good considering it's stable and streaming profit is a new thing anyways so it's like "extra" money.
thanks, that was just a typo, i did fix it.
45minutes is too long for a game really? Don't Pubs usually last like 40minutes with picks?
Oh, I thought you meant 45 minutes to match up to START TO play xD. I was assuming that if you were so high leveled it would probably be hard to find worthy opponents, and since DotA games take longer than SC2 it would be hard to match up at the right times, and that's why it took so long to start one.
But even so if you stream continuous commercials between Dota games, you won't need nearly as many viewers as you do SC2 streams, but then again if you're playing on a dota team your teammates might want a share of it. 5 minutes of waiting in queue * 2 commercials per minute * 100 viewers = $5. Not that bad especially if you play like 10 hours a day which is like a 70 hour work week, and if you get something from your team sponsors that's nice too, or if you win prizes. You'd get 186.66$ a week or $9333.33 a year. It's a bit low but if you live with others (share apartment or something) it might be doable.
Maybe if you start the norm and make it standard for dota players to play a commercial when you die and other times where you're not doing anything (like early game if you're just walking back home to the fountain and back to the lane) you can fit in 5-10 more commercials per game, so that's 15-20 commercials per 45 minutes or $14,000 to $18,666 a year. That should be good enough to live on.
But once again that's only if your team doesn't want any or you play with pubs. Idk if you can play any worthwhile high level games just through pubs.
I'm not sure how this suggestion will be taken but why not League of Legends? If MOBA is the genre that you want to be competitive in, LoL has the most established circuit with the largest prize pool. If you have professional experience in MOBA then the only adjustments would be to the faster play style and champions.
On December 11 2011 16:24 sWitcH.659 wrote: I'm not sure how this suggestion will be taken but why not League of Legends? If MOBA is the genre that you want to be competitive in, LoL has the most established circuit with the largest prize pool. If you have professional experience in MOBA then the only adjustments would be to the faster play style and champions.
There are very big gameplay differences. Also as a whole I think in terms of playerbase DotA beats out LoL. However this could just be my hate for the game. With the entire buying heroes and all that junk. If dota2 takes off, it'll be a larger and better esport
On December 11 2011 14:54 BuLba wrote: well there goes the fact that it is a team game. In NA i consider a very small amount of individuals even able to do well internationally besides fear and demon. with an actual team of american players including both fear's leadership and experience and demon's skill, i thought we could do fairly well. Even Demon admitted that the team we had for nations had some of the best teamwork hes played with before in his dota career. However, because of school/age/experience and other factors, it isnt possible. The level that those two want to play and strive to play at and the dedication they want to show towards the game is beyond what anyone else in NA can do. ive always played this game for fun and only recently (within the past half year or so after nations) thought about actually playing competitive dota seriously. realistically it was always hard for any team of na players to put aside their egos and sacrifice roles for the betterment of the team. i think in na's recent past, only EG with demon/fear/merlini actually managed a top success with farmf4fame some time ago and the recent Nations victory for our team. these have been the only successes of the NA scene in quite some time besides pokerstars(demons) play at SMM. fear did this on his current roster where he has become a pure support player which has been totally different than any of his past roles. i can see how you state that sc2 has a clear road to success without the politics of creating teams/dealing with each other. However, the fact is that being successful in the current pool of players in sc2 consistently to actually make something of yourself is quite difficult. you have the few breakout starts but they never consistently stay at the top. Sc2 markets players as names while dota markets the team as a whole. dota 1 didnt really even set up a system for NA. besides CEVO like 2 years ago, there hasnt ever been any motivation or system for North america in dota. the opportunities we all had were minimal and i think that is the problem you state according to success. However, now there will be more opportunities. compared to the successful tournaments that ran only twice a year, now tournaments are popping up weekly. This will allow more breakout stars in the dota 2 scene hopefully. This coincides with what you stated about various Open tournaments in starcraft 2. The competition in those open tournaments are a lot harder than what would be the current competition in dota tournaments. you have the few top teams but you dont have those top chinese teams participating. In the sc2 open tournaments such as nasl (other tournaments as well)qualifiers, the chances of a korean winning are quite huge. its harder to be noticed. but with dota 2's scene rising, these opportunities will hopefully present itself and more players will be known.
I dont think it was ever a problem of dota being unforgiving but the fact that dota 1 never had many opportunities. dota 2 will hopefully fix that. losing a tournament in dota 1 caused you to wait 3 months for the next one. Kind of like brood war where there were only a few important foreigner tourneys (WCG/TSL). So in other words, wait to see how the scene grows, See the different opportunities players have now that sponsors are being serious about dota and then evaluate from there no reason to predict this or that
Eh, Brood War is a poor example simply because you had Korea. Dota 1 had it's opportunities relative to it's popularity. I mean the tournament gaps is about the same in any competitive video/computer game, you have majors and if you wanted to play regularly you had in-house leagues or pugs. I have no doubt the scene will grow, but I don't expect it to continually grow, or rather it's going to apex and then decline much like CS did.
As for the NASL reasoning, my point is that you don't actually need to win the tournament to make a name for yourself. If you just knock out a well-established player, you have essentially achieved what you wanted, name recognition. On the other hand for DotA, when upsets happen, people get excited and MAYBE you as an individual player get some temporary recognition. In either case, your continued success on one hand depends on your own ability to develop as a player in SC2 or your team in DotA. The duality of the player-team in Dota makes it harder for you to establish yourself to the casual crowd (aka those who don't watch anything but major tournaments).
dude go for it man. if you don't, it seems to me that you'll always be stuck questioning yourself if you could be the next big thing. one things for sure... dont listen to brood star.
hey Maybe ur just unhappy about ur current course. Like have u considered that maybe u should do something else or maybe switch it up a bit academically?
LevenT: To those who knows you, you come across as very, very bitter. And probably with good reason, but you're projecting your anger in the wrong direction. You loath the game of DotA for reasons that ultimately has nothing to do with the game itself, but rather people and organizations you feel mistreated by. You're angry because you didn't make as much as you wanted to, due to organizations giving too little or taking too much, because of tournaments not paying out in time and ultimately because you didn't have a good monetary experience with the game. Furthermore, back when you and I were on top, it was much easier at the time. The competition was subpar to say the least, and the same teams always rose to the top, and China wasn't ever a factor at the time. I can understand why you think DotA isn't worthy of being called an e-sport, if you're butthurt about us being the only ones to put an effort into being on top, and easily reached our goal, yet was never rewarded for doing so. But these are different times. The competition has increased tenfolds, without even considering China, and the topteams are actually being appreciated (to some extent).
Ultimately you can't compare SC2 to Dota 2. Not because of genres, but because of the team-aspect. A fair comparison in terms of e-sports would be Counter-Strike. And in that aspect, I honestly don't think the stability of teams are any less erratic in Counter-Strike than it is, or has been, in DotA considering the vast monetary support and exposure of the media one had over another. Organizations like SK has changed around players a lot considering what level they're at, organizations such as MYM has had numerous teams under their brand without one ever really sticking around long enough to be considered 'their' team and the competitive scene of the game has had its fair share of roster-scandals much like DotA (GuX fnatic/SK/fnatic, TaZ kicked/rejoins/leaves, Friis joining mTw/leaving a week later for fnatic and so forth).
When touching the topic of which game is harder to 'get pro at', it's again up to the individual. A lot will find SC2 to be the easier game to develope their skill in and ultimately rise to the top (taking into the account that the player at hand has a gift for the game) simply because they don't have to rely on anyone but themselves and need not take into account training times, weak links, synergy, chemistry, mutual respect, understanding and so forth. Again, CS would be the better game to compare with. And as such, they're pretty much alike. At the end of the day, which game is harder to be a top-player at doesn't really have to do with the games genre, mechanics, learning curve or even your own motivation. It can be narrowed down to something as simple as competition. How much competition is there? If there's next to none, you don't need to hone your skills as often, you don't need to put all of your focus into the game and you probably don't even need to be talented. And using that logic, SC2 obviously has more competition than DotA has. For one, if assuming the competitive playerbases were equally big, which they are not, SC2's is a lot bigger, SC2 would still only need 1 player per every 5 DotA-players. The margin of error in talent, motivation, availability and so forth would then further help SC2 because there's always a player ready to replace another. In DotA, one persons flaws in this aspect cripples the entire team and would as such, for them to be replaced with an equally competitive team, cycle through 10 players where as SC2 would only need 2.
I'm guessing if you've read this far, you already know where I'm heading. I agree that the competition in SC2 is currently a lot harder. With that being said, I think it's a lot more difficult to reach a point where you're simply able to compete in DotA simply due to the difficulties it brings with it to rely on others. If someone came up to me and explained to me that they wanted to compete and try their luck among the best in e-sports, and wanted me to suggest a game for them to do so in, I would say SC2. To me, the important thing in e-sports it not about being in the top. It's about being able to compete over it. I've played DotA competitively for 7 years now and I'm yet to have a roster, and because of that, a competitive level I've been completely satisfied with. I hope competitive players considered some of the best at their game, be it WC/SC/SC2, can at some point in time say they felt they had reached their full potential. Then again, one of the reasons that motivates me to keep on playing is that same reason: I've never been completely satisfied.
Dota 2 is in a very early stage, obviously, but competitively also a very fragile state. It's at a place where I fear the organizations might very well be on their way to destroy its future. They sign teams that has shown any sign of remote popularity in the game and battle over who can sign the best established team in the beta. Problem is, there's only one well-established team. There's only one team that a sponsor would sign had this been in an established game. And obviously they're already signed under Na'Vi. The rest has been more or less taking chances or spraying their pants over getting a team who can supposedly battle Na'Vi, the untouchable million dollar winners, or at least come close in terms of placings in competitions. Because if Na'Vi is 1st, then there's apparently no shame in coming in second, third or even a close fourth. Not even if the level of competition was ridiculously low. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that there's already a vast amount of interest for the game, and I'm all about giving underdogs a shot at destiny. But what happens when these underdogs, these upcomers, are suddenly considered the teams that are expected to perform, yet on paper are still underdogs? That's where we're heading right now, if you're asking me at least. Some, if not all, of the pickups has been of teams with little to no experience with eachother, having been mostly put together since September, October or even November. Neither of them has players that has noteworthy results or performances in the past, bar Trixi of mousesports, who then again didn't have anything on the resumé in terms of actual DotA. Skillwise, they're definitely at the top, but is that because they're battling eachother? When mediocre meets mediocre, it's bound to be an even battle, no? Not saying these teams are mediocre, they might be the crème de la crème in terms of Dota 2, but what if they're not? What happens when EG comes back from China, what happens if and when China switches over, what happens when better teams prove themselves and makes their entrance into the scene? Will these teams be sustainable and stable? Will the organizations believe in them despite rough patches and downtimes that may seem like forever? Who knows how long these periods might last and what will happen? The organizations don't. The teams doesn't either. Because they have no experience, they have no history and they don't know eachother all that well to begin with. And what happened the last time around when sponsors had their fingers burned? That's right. They ran away. Now that the potential damage is done, let's all just pray that these teams can prove themselves worthy and deliver.
Alright, just came to realize this wasn't a blog or any of the sorts.
OT: Do whatever you damn well please and you have a gut-feeling about. If you deep down know that you're going to be screwing yourself over financially, in a stage where you're struggling to even get by, I don't think e-sports is worth it. If you think you can get by, nothing wrong with eating spaghettiketchup 7 times a week, and it's everything you want to do, then go for it. You're young, plenty of time to jump back on the bandwagon.
Stay in university and play dota + stream. If you are good enough and can attract a community of lets say 3k+viewers per normal day you can consider doing it fulltime. But in your current position making a decision is just stupid, you dont know if you are really any good with it, if you can attract enough viewers and if you can earn enough money to support yourself. Make it like day9, finish your school, play and work on building up a your fanbase, only then you should decide with path to choose.
only thing i would like to ask sofus is you state the sponsors made premmature decisions in picking up these mediocre teams who werent really successful in dota 1. but i would like to ask who you consider actually successful if you look at dota 1's history, its always been the same few groups of people who won tournaments. Puppey and kuroky's teams, your team and teams , fear's teams, and those russian teams like dts.
so even i was like, some of these pickups werent the best for the sponsors and when eg comes back/navi plays even more and chinese teams start transferring to dota 2, what would happen? but the problem is that atm there just arent any other teams for the sponsors to sponsor. these teams they are sponsoring are the active ones that are going to the dota 2 beta lans. i mean your team hasnt been playing much e and i dont exactly know what your guys plan/future is. but who else is there? the mediocre teams from dota 1 are the ones that are trying to show themselves in dota 2 but what exactly constitutes their "mediocreness". i'd actually say teams like WHB are easily better than teams like m5 atm so the russian team goes out the window. SK wasnt that bad in dota 1 actually before dota 2. i think they had a few victories in dota 1 vs even navi but still nothing to other standards. i just want to know who you think deserves these sponsorships atm because there are lans/money to be won and sponsors are attracted by this. if they keep waiting around and not doing anything because there arent any other teams showing activity. i mean if they dont take a chance and not sponsor any teams, there essentially wont be any sponsored teams in dota atm because besides EG and Navi, there havent been any other teams that are playing as much dota 2 that were as successful in dota 1.
also i totally agree about your point regarding all of ESports. if you want to maintain a steady lifestyle and have a reputable income, neither sc2 nor dota should be your main priority. the chances of being successful are slim to best in each game.
LevenT: To those who knows you, you come across as very, very bitter. And probably with good reason, but you're projecting your anger in the wrong direction. You loath the game of DotA for reasons that ultimately has nothing to do with the game itself, but rather people and organizations you feel mistreated by. You're angry because you didn't make as much as you wanted to, due to organizations giving too little or taking too much, because of tournaments not paying out in time and ultimately because you didn't have a good monetary experience with the game. Furthermore, back when you and I were on top, it was much easier at the time. The competition was subpar to say the least, and the same teams always rose to the top, and China wasn't ever a factor at the time. I can understand why you think DotA isn't worthy of being called an e-sport, if you're butthurt about us being the only ones to put an effort into being on top, and easily reached our goal, yet was never rewarded for doing so. But these are different times. The competition has increased tenfolds, without even considering China, and the topteams are actually being appreciated (to some extent).
Ultimately you can't compare SC2 to Dota 2. Not because of genres, but because of the team-aspect. A fair comparison in terms of e-sports would be Counter-Strike. And in that aspect, I honestly don't think the stability of teams are any less erratic in Counter-Strike than it is, or has been, in DotA considering the vast monetary support and exposure of the media one had over another. Organizations like SK has changed around players a lot considering what level they're at, organizations such as MYM has had numerous teams under their brand without one ever really sticking around long enough to be considered 'their' team and the competitive scene of the game has had its fair share of roster-scandals much like DotA (GuX fnatic/SK/fnatic, TaZ kicked/rejoins/leaves, Friis joining mTw/leaving a week later for fnatic and so forth).
When touching the topic of which game is harder to 'get pro at', it's again up to the individual. A lot will find SC2 to be the easier game to develope their skill in and ultimately rise to the top (taking into the account that the player at hand has a gift for the game) simply because they don't have to rely on anyone but themselves and need not take into account training times, weak links, synergy, chemistry, mutual respect, understanding and so forth. Again, CS would be the better game to compare with. And as such, they're pretty much alike. At the end of the day, which game is harder to be a top-player at doesn't really have to do with the games genre, mechanics, learning curve or even your own motivation. It can be narrowed down to something as simple as competition. How much competition is there? If there's next to none, you don't need to hone your skills as often, you don't need to put all of your focus into the game and you probably don't even need to be talented. And using that logic, SC2 obviously has more competition than DotA has. For one, if assuming the competitive playerbases were equally big, which they are not, SC2's is a lot bigger, SC2 would still only need 1 player per every 5 DotA-players. The margin of error in talent, motivation, availability and so forth would then further help SC2 because there's always a player ready to replace another. In DotA, one persons flaws in this aspect cripples the entire team and would as such, for them to be replaced with an equally competitive team, cycle through 10 players where as SC2 would only need 2.
I'm guessing if you've read this far, you already know where I'm heading. I agree that the competition in SC2 is currently a lot harder. With that being said, I think it's a lot more difficult to reach a point where you're simply able to compete in DotA simply due to the difficulties it brings with it to rely on others. If someone came up to me and explained to me that they wanted to compete and try their luck among the best in e-sports, and wanted me to suggest a game for them to do so in, I would say SC2. To me, the important thing in e-sports it not about being in the top. It's about being able to compete over it. I've played DotA competitively for 7 years now and I'm yet to have a roster, and because of that, a competitive level I've been completely satisfied with. I hope competitive players considered some of the best at their game, be it WC/SC/SC2, can at some point in time say they felt they had reached their full potential. Then again, one of the reasons that motivates me to keep on playing is that same reason: I've never been completely satisfied.
Dota 2 is in a very early stage, obviously, but competitively also a very fragile state. It's at a place where I fear the organizations might very well be on their way to destroy its future. They sign teams that has shown any sign of remote popularity in the game and battle over who can sign the best established team in the beta. Problem is, there's only one well-established team. There's only one team that a sponsor would sign had this been in an established game. And obviously they're already signed under Na'Vi. The rest has been more or less taking chances or spraying their pants over getting a team who can supposedly battle Na'Vi, the untouchable million dollar winners, or at least come close in terms of placings in competitions. Because if Na'Vi is 1st, then there's apparently no shame in coming in second, third or even a close fourth. Not even if the level of competition was ridiculously low. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that there's already a vast amount of interest for the game, and I'm all about giving underdogs a shot at destiny. But what happens when these underdogs, these upcomers, are suddenly considered the teams that are expected to perform, yet on paper are still underdogs? That's where we're heading right now, if you're asking me at least. Some, if not all, of the pickups has been of teams with little to no experience with eachother, having been mostly put together since September, October or even November. Neither of them has players that has noteworthy results or performances in the past, bar Trixi of mousesports, who then again didn't have anything on the resumé in terms of actual DotA. Skillwise, they're definitely at the top, but is that because they're battling eachother? When mediocre meets mediocre, it's bound to be an even battle, no? Not saying these teams are mediocre, they might be the crème de la crème in terms of Dota 2, but what if they're not? What happens when EG comes back from China, what happens if and when China switches over, what happens when better teams prove themselves and makes their entrance into the scene? Will these teams be sustainable and stable? Will the organizations believe in them despite rough patches and downtimes that may seem like forever? Who knows how long these periods might last and what will happen? The organizations don't. The teams doesn't either. Because they have no experience, they have no history and they don't know eachother all that well to begin with. And what happened the last time around when sponsors had their fingers burned? That's right. They ran away. Now that the potential damage is done, let's all just pray that these teams can prove themselves worthy and deliver.
Alright, just came to realize this wasn't a blog or any of the sorts.
OT: Do whatever you damn well please and you have a gut-feeling about. If you deep down know that you're going to be screwing yourself over financially, in a stage where you're struggling to even get by, I don't think e-sports is worth it. If you think you can get by, nothing wrong with eating spaghettiketchup 7 times a week, and it's everything you want to do, then go for it. You're young, plenty of time to jump back on the bandwagon.
Great post, I agree with every word, especially the part about sponsors blowing their load too early in anticipation of phantom results. No need to mention these organizations by name, but it's obvious a lot of them have jumped the gun to sign whoever is available and assume they can work together. Once these teams fail, we have to hope that talented players can get signed, instead of just players with names or connections, because DotA isn't like SC2 where you can just sit in your room and become extremely good, then go by yourself to some MLGs and place well to get noticed. You really need support to succeed in this game.
I really think the money will be there for DotA2. Valve isn't going to be outdone by Riot, you can bet your ass on that. Icefrog and Gabe Newell have too much pride for that. There will also be plenty of asian sponsors willing to put up prize pools for major tournaments. It's going to be a question of whether the community will allow competition to flourish in the west, get sponsors to set up team houses, etc. If everybody gives up faith, it'll always be a purely asian eSport.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
On December 11 2011 23:59 BuLba wrote: only thing i would like to ask sofus is you state the sponsors made premmature decisions in picking up these mediocre teams who werent really successful in dota 1. but i would like to ask who you consider actually successful if you look at dota 1's history, its always been the same few groups of people who won tournaments. Puppey and kuroky's teams, your team and teams , fear's teams, and those russian teams like dts.
so even i was like, some of these pickups werent the best for the sponsors and when eg comes back/navi plays even more and chinese teams start transferring to dota 2, what would happen? but the problem is that atm there just arent any other teams for the sponsors to sponsor. these teams they are sponsoring are the active ones that are going to the dota 2 beta lans. i mean your team hasnt been playing much e and i dont exactly know what your guys plan/future is. but who else is there? the mediocre teams from dota 1 are the ones that are trying to show themselves in dota 2 but what exactly constitutes their "mediocreness". i'd actually say teams like WHB are easily better than teams like m5 atm so the russian team goes out the window. SK wasnt that bad in dota 1 actually before dota 2. i think they had a few victories in dota 1 vs even navi but still nothing to other standards. i just want to know who you think deserves these sponsorships atm because there are lans/money to be won and sponsors are attracted by this. if they keep waiting around and not doing anything because there arent any other teams showing activity. i mean if they dont take a chance and not sponsor any teams, there essentially wont be any sponsored teams in dota atm because besides EG and Navi, there havent been any other teams that are playing as much dota 2 that were as successful in dota 1.
also i totally agree about your point regarding all of ESports. if you want to maintain a steady lifestyle and have a reputable income, neither sc2 nor dota should be your main priority. the chances of being successful are slim to best in each game.
It has nothing to do with Maelk's standards, his personal opinion isn't the focus of his argument, his point is that none of these teams are established or were established beforehand outside of Navi and to some limited extent EG. The money being invested into DotA means shit when it doesn't establish an infrastructure or some kind of business model to make it sustainable. Random weekly tournaments and shit are nice and all, but games like Supreme Commander and Command and Conquer had those too. Is the investment going into Dota 2 building some kind of foundation? Not really. Sponsors coming into DotA isn't anything new and the teams that have been sponsored haven't exhibited any longevity (and history isn't on their side).
Also, sponsoring these teams (by default, since like you said, there aren't a lot out there) at this point in the game's life cycle is a miserable way for sponsors to enter the scene. It's exactly like Maelk said, sponsors are jumping in without any real justification other than the fear that they might miss out. That in turn leads to potentially bad investments in very possibly "mediocre" teams. All this isn't even considering the high roster turnover rate in DotA.
China coming in means very little for the rest of the world. Just look at Korea and Brood War, and they had an established BW pro-gaming model. Now consider China, which doesn't have any of that as of now. It's way too early to be saying that China will somehow be the bedrock of Dota 2 beyond just another community and being just another community is not enough.
pretty awesome that ur in engineering science at univeristy of toronto, i have a friend in that program and hes getting owned. Im in life science at the same school and like the video said i havent been sober at all in my first or second year lolol.
for those of you who dont know engineering science is for the elite students who had 95%+ averages in high school.
@OP: As long as youre not living in korea or are fatality then there is no way to make any money worth mentioning with pro-gaming. In all honesty, forget that thought completly. If you really want to make some money with gaming, you need to do good and entertaining commentary, videos or tutorials. Anyone who makes money with gaming doesnt do so with skill, but with being an entertainer. TotalBiscuit for example...idk exactly if and how much he makes, but potentially just with his streams+sc2 casts, he can/could make a living. At the same time, if he was a pro s2 gamer, he could not. There is no market for it.
So think about it again. Anyone doing a steam while being a ridiculous troll for 2-3h a day will make more money than you, no matter how good you get. Trust me on this one.
I don't see how it matters, Dota 2 is about to go big and it's good if he starts now so he can break through faster.
Grubby did the same and many other pro gamers have decided to try gaming for a year instead of pursuing their degree.
It doesn't matter at all, you should just follow your dreams and see if you get somewhere.
Worst that could happen is he lost a year but gained a lot of experience.
I know the thread is about the stream questions but he shouldn't have had that title or the talk about leaving uni if he didn't want to get flak for it.
Glad I checked on this thread, even if it has gone way off topic. Some very good opinions here on the potential for dota2 from both sides of the argument.
The thing is, even IF he "makes it" in dota2, theres no gain to be made. By just being a progamer and streaming your matches, youll make NOTHING. Absolutly nothing. His dedication 12h/day isnt worth jack, that is my point. Outside of asia, making a living with competetive play isnt happening. The people who can do that can literally be counted on one hand.
On December 11 2011 23:48 Holy_AT wrote: If you are good enough and can attract a community of lets say 3k+viewers per normal day you can consider doing it fulltime.
not even dendi or tobi get 3k viewers, besides at tournements, but for some random guy to expect 3 viewers is crazy optimistic
On December 12 2011 04:41 windirein wrote: The thing is, even IF he "makes it" in dota2, theres no gain to be made. By just being a progamer and streaming your matches, youll make NOTHING. Absolutly nothing. His dedication 12h/day isnt worth jack, that is my point. Outside of asia, making a living with competetive play isnt happening. The people who can do that can literally be counted on one hand.
You can make a decent amount of money streaming; the issue is that are you willing to live under the poverty line? Because that's what most progamers live under. Only the very few elite actually make enough to sustain a decent living, even in SC2. Essentially, he should be doing it because he loves the game that much, not because it is an "easy" way to make money, because it really isn't.
Honestly all this talk about progaming should tell you already how hard it is to make money competitively. It's simply much easier to make money in social MMOs like WoW and be a part of the virtual economy. You'd probably make much more money just participating in things like selling items, accounts, gold, or other things like that.
^ Well thats essentially what Im saying. Chances of making good money by just being a good gamer are too slim. You could aswell just hope youll randomly become president of the states, thats how likely it is. On the other hand, its not nearly as hard making some money with entertaining streams/videos as a gamer. You know, good shoutcasters get paid more than good gamers.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
On December 12 2011 04:41 windirein wrote: The thing is, even IF he "makes it" in dota2, theres no gain to be made. By just being a progamer and streaming your matches, youll make NOTHING. Absolutly nothing. His dedication 12h/day isnt worth jack, that is my point. Outside of asia, making a living with competetive play isnt happening. The people who can do that can literally be counted on one hand.
You can make a decent amount of money streaming; the issue is that are you willing to live under the poverty line? Because that's what most progamers live under. Only the very few elite actually make enough to sustain a decent living, even in SC2. Essentially, he should be doing it because he loves the game that much, not because it is an "easy" way to make money, because it really isn't.
Honestly all this talk about progaming should tell you already how hard it is to make money competitively. It's simply much easier to make money in social MMOs like WoW and be a part of the virtual economy. You'd probably make much more money just participating in things like selling items, accounts, gold, or other things like that.
actually as long as i can survive without parental support im perfectly happy with giving up everything to try this.
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I don't really have much of a concern for money as other people though. Honestly staying home all day and playing games and doing other shit on the internet may not be what I tottaly want but it's good enough for me. If I'm gurateed that I can at least do that then I think this path isn't suicidal at all. OFC, I'm aimming for much more, but scrapping by is good enough honestly.
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I don't really have much of a concern for money as other people though. Honestly staying home all day and playing games and doing other shit on the internet may not be what I tottaly want but it's good enough for me. If I'm gurateed that I can at least do that then I think this path isn't suicidal at all. OFC, I'm aimming for much more, but scrapping by is good enough honestly.
Here's the best advice I can give you. Talk to people like a career councilor of you have access to one. Make sure that you have some sort of back-up plan if you don't make it. I like how you have the balls to do this, but remember, just like anything else in life, you have to remember that you are taking a risk. I once wanted to go pro at tennis until I started talking to some former pros and realized that the amount of work you put in versus the payoff was ridiculous (as in, you put in years of your life for a matter of minimum wage at best).
I do remember playing you in a few games of HoN, and you are indeed exceptionally talented, much more than some "pros" at HoN. Just remember that if you are going to go out there and try something like this, that you have completely thought about it. As other guys have been saying in this thread, the world of E-Sports is not stable. Even if you make it big, you can easily be swept aside and have no backup plan.
On December 12 2011 06:28 Wrath 2.1 wrote: levent and eternal envy really good players, both would make it easily to the top in dota2. If they consider it worth it, that is.
I do think its worth it and that's why I'm going for it no matter what people say. =o
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I don't really have much of a concern for money as other people though. Honestly staying home all day and playing games and doing other shit on the internet may not be what I tottaly want but it's good enough for me. If I'm gurateed that I can at least do that then I think this path isn't suicidal at all. OFC, I'm aimming for much more, but scrapping by is good enough honestly.
Here's the best advice I can give you. Talk to people like a career councilor of you have access to one. Make sure that you have some sort of back-up plan if you don't make it. I like how you have the balls to do this, but remember, just like anything else in life, you have to remember that you are taking a risk. I once wanted to go pro at tennis until I started talking to some former pros and realized that the amount of work you put in versus the payoff was ridiculous (as in, you put in years of your life for a matter of minimum wage at best).
I do remember playing you in a few games of HoN, and you are indeed exceptionally talented, much more than some "pros" at HoN. Just remember that if you are going to go out there and try something like this, that you have completely thought about it. As other guys have been saying in this thread, the world of E-Sports is not stable. Even if you make it big, you can easily be swept aside and have no backup plan.
Thanks for the concern but as I've stated time and time again, I do have a back up plan. Keep in mind that I am not "dropping out" I am merely taking leave. I can go back to school and start the same year anytime.
Do it! Opportunities like this are much better to do earlier in life, where the opportunity cost is not very high (one year of missed school is not a big deal) as opposed to later when you'll likely have more commitments (mortgage, kids, etc.). Very similar to starting your own company early on, I think it's a fantastic idea to take these unique opportunities and exercises early on to figure out what your true calling is.
While people are correct in saying there is more associated risk than a traditional root (obviously), you seem ready to accept that it might fail and have a backup plan, which is exactly what you need to be prepared to do.
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I don't really have much of a concern for money as other people though. Honestly staying home all day and playing games and doing other shit on the internet may not be what I tottaly want but it's good enough for me. If I'm gurateed that I can at least do that then I think this path isn't suicidal at all. OFC, I'm aimming for much more, but scrapping by is good enough honestly.
Here's the best advice I can give you. Talk to people like a career councilor of you have access to one. Make sure that you have some sort of back-up plan if you don't make it. I like how you have the balls to do this, but remember, just like anything else in life, you have to remember that you are taking a risk. I once wanted to go pro at tennis until I started talking to some former pros and realized that the amount of work you put in versus the payoff was ridiculous (as in, you put in years of your life for a matter of minimum wage at best).
I do remember playing you in a few games of HoN, and you are indeed exceptionally talented, much more than some "pros" at HoN. Just remember that if you are going to go out there and try something like this, that you have completely thought about it. As other guys have been saying in this thread, the world of E-Sports is not stable. Even if you make it big, you can easily be swept aside and have no backup plan.
Thanks for the concern but as I've stated time and time again, I do have a back up plan. Keep in mind that I am not "dropping out" I am merely taking leave. I can go back to school and start the same year anytime.
It's good to see that you have a backup plan unlike most people who attempt to go pro. Most guys believe that they can simply just will their way there to the top without any kind of planning and preparation. You actually have a headstart on most people in that you were actually in the elite level of HoN players, so you know what it takes to get there. I just don't like it when people just simply say "I'm dropping out of school and going pro" without some sort of plan for the future.
I am really getting into Dota and would definitely like to play at a higher level. Care to share any tips you have for practicing ect? I have found it really hard to practice without at least one other person to coordinate with. Solo queue seems more about picking a pubstomper. Would like to hear opinions and ideas for practice methods/styles ect.
It's hard when you're young, but try to think of this long term. Sure you can go back to school, but that just means you are starting to earn money at a later date (opportunity cost). Time off is essentially costing you your salary as an engineer. In addition, you're delaying your experiences = moving up the ladder later in your life. Which all goes into the fact that starting to save for retirement means you will end up with more money with less money put in (exponential growth). PLUS there's the fact that statistically you are more than likely not going to end up going back to school.
As long as you reallllyyy understand what you are sacrificing... good luck.
On December 12 2011 08:27 oxxo wrote: It's hard when you're young, but try to think of this long term. Sure you can go back to school, but that just means you are starting to earn money at a later date (opportunity cost). Time off is essentially costing you your salary as an engineer. In addition, you're delaying your experiences = moving up the ladder later in your life. Which all goes into the fact that starting to save for retirement means you will end up with more money with less money put in (exponential growth). PLUS there's the fact that statistically you are more than likely not going to end up going back to school.
As long as you reallllyyy understand what you are sacrificing... good luck.
I don't really care though. I don't need a lot of money to live, I don't really give a shit about having a house or a nice car. Thus, even if I start late in getting money, and my retirement money isn't good, I'm sure I'll still be able to live in a decent apartment.
On December 12 2011 08:03 Hoban wrote: I am really getting into Dota and would definitely like to play at a higher level. Care to share any tips you have for practicing ect? I have found it really hard to practice without at least one other person to coordinate with. Solo queue seems more about picking a pubstomper. Would like to hear opinions and ideas for practice methods/styles ect.
If you can stomp roughly 65-70% of semi-decent level public games then you can start thinking about looking for a team. You also want to be able to play multiple roles on a team. You need to ensure that your micro abilities are at least good enough to compete with other players in league play. Start off small and be willing to play the roles no one else wants to play. You will get much further along in competitive play if you are willing to sacrifice individual score for the overall goal of winning. The only reason why you should be taking mid/hard carry over other players is if you for a fact are simply better than everyone else on your team (which is usually the case in pubs, but not in high level play).
On December 12 2011 08:27 oxxo wrote: It's hard when you're young, but try to think of this long term. Sure you can go back to school, but that just means you are starting to earn money at a later date (opportunity cost). Time off is essentially costing you your salary as an engineer. In addition, you're delaying your experiences = moving up the ladder later in your life. Which all goes into the fact that starting to save for retirement means you will end up with more money with less money put in (exponential growth). PLUS there's the fact that statistically you are more than likely not going to end up going back to school.
As long as you reallllyyy understand what you are sacrificing... good luck.
I don't really care though. I don't need a lot of money to live, I don't really give a shit about having a house or a nice car. Thus, even if I start late in getting money, and my retirement money isn't good, I'm sure I'll still be able to live in a decent apartment.
Things become different if you ever want to start a family or even just live with your significant other. Just remember that your taking a huge risk for a potentially low payoff.
unfortunately being in Comp Sci 3rd year uni I have somewhat similar problems, School takes up a lot of my time, around 50-70 hours and then i work around 20 hours a week. I only get around 10 hours a week to play starcraft, and im top of masters(I play GM's constantly), I have considered taking a semester off school to try and play Sc2 constantly with my decent paying job of being a server at a restaurant where i can make 150-200$ a day... But in the end its not worth it I think, it sucks that we are in a time where Esports are taking off and most of us have priorities like school to keep us in the way of it, especially considering it is way more time consuming than a full time job in my opinion.
I strongly even believe since to us school takes such a long time to complete and so time consuming and we view it so negatively, this is why a lot of us try to take up our desires in Esports because it seems like a way out, similar is what happens to some of my friends who do not play video games but tried to pursue poker professionally. Most of the time it does not end well, sure there are those few exceptions (Like Stefano who delayed med school to play sc2). We want to fill the void in our lives with video games because as students we are definitely strapped for cash and playing video games as a living to just get by seems better than going to school while being a "starving student". I strongly feel that these desires will go away when we finish our degrees and get decent paying jobs in our fields, since we will have a strong income, and we will not want to give that up (along with the perks of a good income) to pay video games professionally although we are quite good at them, they will be more of a getaway to relax from stress instead of a getaway and dream to get away from our problems in life.
I just now realized that my second paragraph is doing what you dont want to read lol... I might actually make up my own blog about Esports and university students, because it seems like such a interesting topic.
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I would bet you a pretty penny that Yoda has made more from streaming in the past year than Demon. And that HuK makes closer to 200-300k after prize money and streaming.
On December 12 2011 05:36 x6.Chouji wrote: BULBAAAA~! lol noobs.
I read nothing in this thread except the original post.
I used to play DoTa quite alot many years ago. I played @ a few lans and a few major online tournaments when e-sports was still something of a dream for x6.
It definitely affected my RL as my grades and class attendance was quite low. After I graduated I decided I wasn't great enough to go to China and become the best player on earth and now I am an accountant. Without dota I may have been able to be a much more successful accountant, but I am quite successful as it is and I try not to have any regrets. I enjoyed it.
Of my old teammates only 3 still play. Demon - EG for DoTa/DoTa2, Yoda - EZ for HoN, Merc - EZ for HoN? 70+% of the "pros" that are not from Asia today in LoL, HoN and DoTa I have played with or against in some way or form.
The most successful I would think is obviously Demon. And he does not make a lot of money. He makes enough to live and probably make more than he would had he not done that (as he was working at a local movie theater before). What he makes compared to what HuK (from sc2) makes is probably laughable in comparison.
I probably make less than HuK as a 3rd year accountant (I assume hes making from 100-150k in 2011). But it's stable and has a much better future and I will make alot more than him soon. Whereas his time may be over at any point in time that a bunch of new players with better strategies and micro than him will emerge (the game is still very young). You have to remember, before 2010-2011 it was ridiculous to even consider making a true career of e-sports outside of Korea/China as a career. This is all new ground.
You want to stream and make money and practice? You will need a damn good stable team and a damn good sponsor (things are are almost nonexistent for MOB games). I'm sure you can scrape by and you are still young.
But.
Consider it a life experience. If you get good enough you can travel to many new places, meet cool people, and generally have a blast. But in no way is it a career. You SHOULD do this as you will experience something not many have or will have. Sometimes I envy demon for his option of going out to play his heart out all over the world. But the rest of me knows this is the best. Having a home, decent income, great girlfriend and playing games casually. And raging at noobs.
I would bet you a pretty penny that Yoda has made more from streaming in the past year than Demon. And that HuK makes closer to 200-300k after prize money and streaming.
No way, Less than 200k but above 100k forsure, its apart of his contract to stream, and he probably gets MAX 3-4grand a month from streaming
On December 12 2011 08:03 Hoban wrote: I am really getting into Dota and would definitely like to play at a higher level. Care to share any tips you have for practicing ect? I have found it really hard to practice without at least one other person to coordinate with. Solo queue seems more about picking a pubstomper. Would like to hear opinions and ideas for practice methods/styles ect.
SUPER TRY HARD RESPONSE (Ignore if you aren't that serious)
0. Play with people around your skill level! And play SERIOUS games. One way to do this is to play on dotalicious, google it. By playing on a ladder system such as dotalicious, you are better gurateed to play with people around your own level. Do not waste time playing pubs.
1. Don't memorize, but at least understand EVERYTHING about characters. Read every character skill, some skills are very unique and not many people including high lvl players know the specifics. One example would be Sand King Ultimate grows in radius as time elapses. Understand their range some heroes have 500,550,600,625, blah range and you should know these. Know their animation. Know their combos, and damage, and mana cost of those combos. To do this, go to single player and go through every hero in test mode .
2. Learn Juke Spots -go around find some juke spots and try to apply them in your game
3. Learn to Buy items You should be able to buy items retardedly quickly at secret shop, side shop, and town, and using crow. People always stand in fountain and have to find their items, but a good player needs to be able to buy ANY item within 2 seconds. Heros can also move while buying items, if you use shift click, you can buy items at side shops/secret shops while moving. Go to single player and practice buying items, and also know the cost of every item, including the full recipe. Aka butterfly is 6000 gold is important to know.
4. Stamp Collecting Make sure you do all the little things, hotkey your tower invulerable thing, hotkey chicken, hero, and summons. Make sure your setup is right, if not change it and get use to it. COUNT ROSHAN. Whenever roshan dies, you should know EXACTLY when it spawns the next time. I believe its 10minutes after, people NEVER keep actual count of roshan spawns. They just know approximately when its about to respawn which is NOT good enough. Runes spawn every 2 minutes, you should know about how much time it takes for you to get to a rune location from your position. A lot of noobs go to rune and then stand there for 30 seconds bcuz they don't know how long it takes to get there. If you know this shit, you can get there at exactly the time when it spawns.
5. Don't forget/write down tricks that you find. For example, if you turn on/off a basilius ring next to neutral creeps, it will agro them. Almost no one knows this. You can also eat a specific tree in middle scourge lane and have instant access to the secret shop. There are also many other interesting mechanics that people nede to know, such as URN cancels linkens etc. Don't be ignorant to these things if you ever find them!
6. Understand which heroes are good and which are bad! It's a waste of time to play -random and play w/e hero u get. It's better to play the better heroes first untill you start playing the more random ones. And to try to play the same hero repeatedly untill your good at it and then move on. Playing modes like -ar and shit is a waste of time. Also do not play EM.
In order to understand this, go through gosugamers replays and check which heroes are picked/banned. You may not need to watch the replays, but you need to go over the pick/ban analysis summary which you can access without watching the replay in order to figure out what heroes are worth your time.
7. Ward Spots.
This is more high lvl stuff, but if you are good enough to purchase wards (don't be a noob and buy wards, it will just get you killed), you should know where to place these wards. Go to www.dotacommentaries.com and watch some of Luminious48's special videos where he goes over interesting mechanics and also teaches you random stuff. He has interesting videos that teach of warding, how to farm, how to jungle, and other good stuff.
8. Focus! and "team work"
Try to drop flame wars as fast as possible. If you want to get good, it is more important to play to win, than play by your pride. If a teammate won't cooperate no matter what, just play and ignore him. Play to win. MINI MAP. BE SURE TO FUCKING CHECK IT, AND FUCKING CALL YOUR LANE AND LISTEN TO MIAS. Take them very seriously! It is better to play safe and then progressively get more ballsy as you learn the game than play ballsy and then go into safe mode eventually. The latter is what everyone does, and it's stupid.
9. Positioning and Greed Buy fucking TPs. People are greedy and don't buy them but you need to carry one later on almost at all times. There are only specifics instances where you wouldn't carry one like saving for radiance recipe at 10000 gold or something.
Don't dive towers unless you know what your doing, do not get greedy. Play safe. If you have any sense that things might not work out the way you think, get out. If you play SC2, it's kinda the same thing, straving your opponent is usualyl better than going in and attacking and failing. You are giving opponents a chance to come back! PLAY PATIENTLY. Most noobs won't but convince your team that if your winning you shold just strave them out instead of suicide push. Play smartly though, sometimes pushing to further your advantage is good. Analyze risks and benefits and decide, don't be suicidal though!
POSITION YOURSELF during fights. The WORSE thing about noobs is that they have no idea what positioning is. They merely just charge in and cast spells and then go "OH I DID MY PART I USED ALL MY SPELLS." This does not cut it all the time.
10. How to Learn a Hero Copy Skill Build from a pro player (through replays), copy their item build, etc. Be sure to watch a few replays or at least briefly scan it on 4x/8x and check how they farm, when they gank, when they run, when they go in, etc etc etc before you blindly play the hero. When you finally learn something properly, then you can be innovative, but first you must just copy shit and understand why pros do the things they do.
Now if any of this sounds kinda iffy to you, watch REPLAYS. The best way to get better is to have a mind set, a goal, a vision that you want to achieve. If you have no idea what aspects to improve on, and more importantly how to improve it, you should figure that out before you play. The best way to do that is through replays!
On December 12 2011 08:03 Hoban wrote: I am really getting into Dota and would definitely like to play at a higher level. Care to share any tips you have for practicing ect? I have found it really hard to practice without at least one other person to coordinate with. Solo queue seems more about picking a pubstomper. Would like to hear opinions and ideas for practice methods/styles ect.
I suppose this isn't really practicing but one important thing I think is really watching the pro games. You also get a better feel for what you can do in certain situations, though be careful of times where you have to rely on teammates. Pubbies don't make the best teammates . However a thing I learned alot from watching pro games is about items. You have the little recommended item tab in DotA 2. For the most part they're fine though there are some that I really have issues with like Weavers an all. Watching pro games is really good idea to get to know what are good item builds, items for certain situations. Situational builds etc.
On December 12 2011 08:27 oxxo wrote: It's hard when you're young, but try to think of this long term. Sure you can go back to school, but that just means you are starting to earn money at a later date (opportunity cost). Time off is essentially costing you your salary as an engineer. In addition, you're delaying your experiences = moving up the ladder later in your life. Which all goes into the fact that starting to save for retirement means you will end up with more money with less money put in (exponential growth). PLUS there's the fact that statistically you are more than likely not going to end up going back to school.
As long as you reallllyyy understand what you are sacrificing... good luck.
I don't really care though. I don't need a lot of money to live, I don't really give a shit about having a house or a nice car. Thus, even if I start late in getting money, and my retirement money isn't good, I'm sure I'll still be able to live in a decent apartment.
Of course you don't you're still a kid, I promise you your priorities will change later in life.
If you think you are really good at this game then it's OK but if you are going to turn out to be just a "decent" pro gamer then I wouldn't suggest you to drop out of college.
I really appreciate all the advice so far it is very helpful!
My ritual right now is either queue with at least one other person. This allows some coordination and generally makes me have a good time. If no one is on, play private bot games with champions who I want to figure out what they do. I actually spent a good 4 hours earlier just figuring out some neat ward locations to give vision and block camps. (N'aix and Prophet will trouble me no more!!)
Here is my priority list: -Play the game with at least 1 other person -Watch pro streams/replays and take notes -Fool around with heroes in bot games to figure out how they work -Play a pub game and focus on hero mechanics -Scour the internet for little tips/tricks/advice
I spend about 40 hrs a week doing this (depending on my workload) and it seems like I am improving quickly.
Now that you mention juke spots, I really need to spend time watching juke montages or something =P Juking and proper shift-queuing are the two worst parts about my game at this moment. I am currently focus on understanding proper team comps and laneing matchups. I never thought to just watch replays of picks/bans analysis, that is an awesome idea! As soon as I found out you can modify the recommended items tab, buying became much quicker for me.
Few more questions: What is a good source of replays? I don't have Dota I just have Dota2 so I will probably need VoDs.
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
On December 12 2011 13:02 Hoban wrote: I really appreciate all the advice so far it is very helpful!
My ritual right now is either queue with at least one other person. This allows some coordination and generally makes me have a good time. If no one is on, play private bot games with champions who I want to figure out what they do. I actually spent a good 4 hours earlier just figuring out some neat ward locations to give vision and block camps. (N'aix and Prophet will trouble me no more!!)
Here is my priority list: -Play the game with at least 1 other person -Watch pro streams/replays and take notes -Fool around with heroes in bot games to figure out how they work -Play a pub game and focus on hero mechanics -Scour the internet for little tips/tricks/advice
I spend about 40 hrs a week doing this (depending on my workload) and it seems like I am improving quickly.
Now that you mention juke spots, I really need to spend time watching juke montages or something =P Juking and proper shift-queuing are the two worst parts about my game at this moment. I am currently focus on understanding proper team comps and laneing matchups. I never thought to just watch replays of picks/bans analysis, that is an awesome idea! As soon as I found out you can modify the recommended items tab, buying became much quicker for me.
Few more questions: What is a good source of replays? I don't have Dota I just have Dota2 so I will probably need VoDs.
I recommend watching WoDota Top 10 Weekly on youtube for some epic juking/kills and etc. also for vods, check LuminouStudios on youtube or http://www.dotacommentaries.com/ they have some really great commentaries over there. Also, try not to use 'Champions'
To OP: I wish you the very best, hope you achieve something!
On December 12 2011 13:02 Hoban wrote: I really appreciate all the advice so far it is very helpful!
My ritual right now is either queue with at least one other person. This allows some coordination and generally makes me have a good time. If no one is on, play private bot games with champions who I want to figure out what they do. I actually spent a good 4 hours earlier just figuring out some neat ward locations to give vision and block camps. (N'aix and Prophet will trouble me no more!!)
Here is my priority list: -Play the game with at least 1 other person -Watch pro streams/replays and take notes -Fool around with heroes in bot games to figure out how they work -Play a pub game and focus on hero mechanics -Scour the internet for little tips/tricks/advice
I spend about 40 hrs a week doing this (depending on my workload) and it seems like I am improving quickly.
Now that you mention juke spots, I really need to spend time watching juke montages or something =P Juking and proper shift-queuing are the two worst parts about my game at this moment. I am currently focus on understanding proper team comps and laneing matchups. I never thought to just watch replays of picks/bans analysis, that is an awesome idea! As soon as I found out you can modify the recommended items tab, buying became much quicker for me.
Few more questions: What is a good source of replays? I don't have Dota I just have Dota2 so I will probably need VoDs.
Keep in mind that my advice will not make you that much better. Roshan timings and shift clicking are things that I believe ANY player can do once they put some time to figure it out and practice it. So why not do it? That's all I'm saying.
You seem to be trying hard to figure out the game yourself, I'm sure you won't be stuck for a while. There has never been a single time where I've ever ran out of ideas to get better :D.
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
I'm pretty sure OP meant it as self-deprecating humour, which is completely different from trolling. Also, people ridiculing themselves all the time and quite seriously—where do you see that other than in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings? I doubt people ridicule themselves seriously on Teamliquid unless they have serious self-confidence problems and reading the rest of OP's post, he comes off quite arrogant, which tends to be the opposite of lacking self-confidence.
Regarding judging someone is right or wrong, maybe what OP was looking for was an argument based on logic that judged whether his decision to leave school to pursue progaming was right or wrong. Instead, what he got from blabber was the standard mainstream view: shut-in kid + video games = bad; social life + frat party every weekend = good
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
I'm pretty sure OP meant it as self-deprecating humour, which is completely different from trolling. Also, people ridiculing themselves all the time and quite seriously—where do you see that other than in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings? I doubt people seriously ridicule themselves on Teamliquid.net unless they have serious self-confidence problems and reading the rest of OP's post, he comes off quite arrogant, which tends to be the opposite of lacking self-confidence.
You really think arrogance is the opposite of low self-confidence?
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
I'm pretty sure OP meant it as self-deprecating humour, which is completely different from trolling. Also, people ridiculing themselves all the time and quite seriously—where do you see that other than in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings? I doubt people seriously ridicule themselves on Teamliquid.net unless they have serious self-confidence problems and reading the rest of OP's post, he comes off quite arrogant, which tends to be the opposite of lacking self-confidence.
You really think arrogance is the opposite of low self-confidence?
Yes, arrogance can be defined as an excess of self-confidence, which is the opposite of lacking self-confidence. Note that I didn't say everyone who doesn't have low self-confidence is arrogant. I said arrogant people tend to not lack self-confidence.
I think if you really decide to dedicate your life to this, you need to think of a serious back up plan. There have been quite a lot of these kinds of threads on TL, not one of them followed through or became pro. Like it or not, your mindset will most definitely change with time.
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
I'm pretty sure OP meant it as self-deprecating humour, which is completely different from trolling. Also, people ridiculing themselves all the time and quite seriously—where do you see that other than in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings? I doubt people seriously ridicule themselves on Teamliquid.net unless they have serious self-confidence problems and reading the rest of OP's post, he comes off quite arrogant, which tends to be the opposite of lacking self-confidence.
You really think arrogance is the opposite of low self-confidence?
Yes, arrogance can be defined as an excess of self-confidence, which is the opposite of lacking self-confidence. Note that I didn't say everyone who doesn't have low self-confidence is arrogant. I said arrogant people tend to not lack self-confidence.
Putting myself aside. People are usually arrogant in order to hide away their own doubts. A lot of people who have strong character integrity do not come off arrogant.
Also, I find it rather amusing that the my post makes me come off arrogant. I merely listed some achievements and complained about my program and Canada. The things I've listed are facts, and nothing more. I've yet to explicitly mention anything about me being intelligent or talented at gaming.
On December 12 2011 14:43 BalancedBreakfast wrote: I think if you really decide to dedicate your life to this, you need to think of a serious back up plan. There have been quite a lot of these kinds of threads on TL, not one of them followed through or became pro. Like it or not, your mindset will most definitely change with time.
The back up plan has already been stated multiple times. And it's quite a solid one.
I think the only reason as to why people are considering my move self-destructive is because I'm pursuing something that is not acceptable within the social norm. I don't see any way of me dying from poverty just because I'm missing school for a year. How about the people who end up staying back a year, is their future already over?
On December 12 2011 12:58 blabber wrote: stop being a shut in kid and get a social life. a social life will be worth way more than any money you'll make playing video games
I think people took me too seriously. Why would anyone ridicule themselves like that unless it was meant to be some sort of joke.
I'm only responding to this because there have been quite a lot of people taking this the wrong way.
Though who am I kidding, the moment you judge someone from your own standards, based on what you want if I was yourself, is when you lose all credibility to give advice.
So someone took a literal psych problem that you said you had and responded to it honestly. Im sorry at what point is that you trolling and them not realizing it?
People ridicule themselves all the time, quite seriously. Mainly to get past their problems and reach out to others. A lot of people took it that way and your now saying you were just joking. Real classy!
Btw whether judging someone is right or wrong aside; how else should one judge another if but by their own standards? That is sort of the whole point of judging isnt it?
I'm pretty sure OP meant it as self-deprecating humour, which is completely different from trolling. Also, people ridiculing themselves all the time and quite seriously—where do you see that other than in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings? I doubt people seriously ridicule themselves on Teamliquid.net unless they have serious self-confidence problems and reading the rest of OP's post, he comes off quite arrogant, which tends to be the opposite of lacking self-confidence.
You really think arrogance is the opposite of low self-confidence?
Yes, arrogance can be defined as an excess of self-confidence, which is the opposite of lacking self-confidence. Note that I didn't say everyone who doesn't have low self-confidence is arrogant. I said arrogant people tend to not lack self-confidence.
Putting myself aside. People are usually arrogant in order to hide away their own doubts. A lot of people who have strong character integrity do not come off arrogant.
I agree with your 3rd sentence, but I don't agree with your 2nd.
When I think about arrogance IRL, it's usually one person over-estimating their abilities e.g. the person in your engineering group who thinks they're all that, but who everyone else in the group sees doesn't know jack. IMO, they're not actively trying to hide away any of their own doubts or if they are, it's 100% subconscious—maybe a protective mechanism of some sort. At least in their conscious self (which is usually what people talk about when they discuss self-confidence) they seem to have an excess of self-confidence.
You have to modify some scripts in the folder, Steam games are very customizable, as CS 1.6 was. Personally it's never been an issue for me since I'm going to be typing in the item I want anyways, and I keep it there the whole til I complete the item and then switch to the next item I'd build towards, it doesn't add but 2 seconds of time during a dead period in the game, so I haven't bothered modding the recommended items.
My friend is a relatively big streamer that recently switched from twitch to own3d and back to twitch. She told me that own3d pays the same rates as twitch unless you have a special contract, but Moba games on own3d tend to be way more popular than they are on twitch (which seems more focused on fighting games/starcraft). The most popular personal streams on twitch (not tournaments) usually top at around 1000 viewers for LoL, but the most popular LoL streams on own3d can go up to 30,000. She usually averaged 300 viewers on twitch but got over 2000 on own3d. Granted, the LoL and Dota/Hon scenes are pretty different, but both communities seem to trend the same.
Theres also an issue of getting the viewership in the first place. Unless you are a famous tournament player or a really really entertaining person IRL (or a girl) dont expect to have any stable viewership at all, and both jtv and own3d have requirements before they will contract anyone. I think its a minimum average of 100 viewers and a certain pageview count.
Most people dont just show 1 ad after each game. Moba players typically run 10+ ads in between games because queue times are pretty long at higher levels, as well as ads during loading. If you do that as a new streamer though I would imagine people would get pretty irritable.
If you're truly committed to playing a game professionally, understand it may actually takes years to break into the professional scene, if you do at all. There's nothing to stop you from playing MOBAs with all your free time in school (it sounds like this is what you're doing anyway) so if you're truly dedicated and the MOBA scene has any kind of long term viability it will still be around in two years (note: I'm not particularly confident in the long term viability of Western MOBA interest, but it will definitely be around in two years).
You're also trying to get into a professional scene for a game that's not even out yet. Comparing your existing abilities with those also in the beta is terrible way to judge how you'd do in a competitive scene for an actual game (people from the SC2 beta that are still noteworthy players, HuK, Idra, Tester... maybe a few other Koreans). So even if you do kick ass in the beta and get signed by someone, you run the risk of being blown out of the water once all the competition shows up.
I'm surprised it took the Dotallyrad folks this long:
I regale this tale of sorrow with you as I down this Campbell’s Select Chunky: Potatoes, Broccoli and Cream soup because I am morbidly obese and ate 13 peanut butter cookies earlier.
EternalEnvy, the super nerd from HoN, composed of lesser nerds’ failed dreams and disheveled body parts, has decided he will be leaving REAL LIFE and dedicate his time to play DotA. Read how serious this guy is. It’s a depressing series of events.
"I’ve decided that before starting the 2nd half of 2nd year, to go on “leave” and start playing DotA seriously."
Seems like he’s tossing his life away the same way Chaox of LoL did. Anyone that played with EternalEvny realizes how seriously he takes gaming. Sit around the camp fire (if your knees are capable of getting you down that far, fat pub) because it’s time for another story straight out of the DRD vault, which is choke full of classics. I once, to grief Daggius in a scrimmage, bought a hatchet on Accursed and went top to fight for farm, and instantly got called out for it and the first 10 minutes of the game was about why hatchet on melees like Accursed is bad. We lost the game, but the cry was so hard I had nothing to say. This is EternalEnvy
" Some people have further extrapolated this to 4 games/hour in SC2 and thus $8 every hour. This worries me because DotA games last much longer"
You, too, can toss your entire like aspirations away for 8$ an hour!
Read this CLASSIC rationalization:
It’s only a year or two of my life.
rofl.
And I swear those mother fuckers snuck a few mushrooms in this soup, too.
What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament. To my knowledge SC2 has never had that many viewers watching 1 stream. SC2 obviously has a more steady stream of tournaments and streams. But games like DotA, HoN, and LoL could easily be more popular than SC2. A major reason being that it is a team game, and a lot of people love team games (i.e. football, baseball, basketball, etc.)
I myself prefer to watch SC2, but it is shortsighted and naive to say that RTS will always beat MOBA's.
The best time is now to pursue a dream in eSports. It's on the upswing again and there is money to be made. As the OP said he can always go back to school, but will he always be in a position to pursue this dream? You only live once, take chances and make mistakes, that's what makes life worth living.
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament.
No they didn't.
Riot integrates their stream into the game client. Anyone and everyone who was logged in or inside of a game was "watching" the stream, even if they didn't give half of a crap. So if they have some tournament and they got 250,000 people -- I think it's safe to say at least 100-200k don't even know it's going on.
So that's a very inflated and inaccurate number there.
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament.
Riot integrates their stream into the game client.
No. They provide a link to the stream in the client. The numbers they got are the people who clicked on the link and were actually watching the stream. What you see in the client is basically a .jpg and an attached link.
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament.
Riot integrates their stream into the game client.
No. They provide a link to the stream in the client. The numbers they got are the people who clicked on the link and were actually watching the stream. What you see in the client is basically a .jpg and an attached link.
Yeah also, they've never had 1 million viewers at the same time, love when people make up bullshit about stream numbers.
Their best was gamescom when they had about 230k concurrents i believe was the max.
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament.
Riot integrates their stream into the game client.
No. They provide a link to the stream in the client. The numbers they got are the people who clicked on the link and were actually watching the stream. What you see in the client is basically a .jpg and an attached link.
Yeah also, they've never had 1 million viewers at the same time, love when people make up bullshit about stream numbers.
Their best was gamescom when they had about 230k concurrents i believe was the max.
Well it's the same as any MLG report. You can divide whatever number they give you by 100 because that's probably the amount of times each individual person has to refresh.
MOBA games are not sc2. You do not need 8-12 hours of practice. Stay in school and play with your team often, and you should have the same results. Focus on mechanics, just like any other game.
On December 13 2011 11:05 SkimGuy wrote: What defines success for an e-sport is the amount of eyes (spectators) that are willing to watch it since that's the only thing a sponsor cares about. RTS games like Starcraft will always beat Dota simply because it is a better game to watch/follow, which in the end leads to more viewers and more success
Um, actually LoL had over 1 million viewers(at the same time!) for one tournament.
Riot integrates their stream into the game client.
No. They provide a link to the stream in the client. The numbers they got are the people who clicked on the link and were actually watching the stream. What you see in the client is basically a .jpg and an attached link.
Yeah also, they've never had 1 million viewers at the same time, love when people make up bullshit about stream numbers.
Their best was gamescom when they had about 230k concurrents i believe was the max.
Well it's the same as any MLG report. You can divide whatever number they give you by 100 because that's probably the amount of times each individual person has to refresh.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I felt like it's pointless to convey how difficult this program is because people will just assume I'm being arrogant and leave it at that. But since a lot of people keep telling me its possible, I'll try to convey the idea of this program anyway.
University of Toronto is top 13 Engineering Schools in the world. University of Tokyo, known as one of the most retardedly hard schools, is only 1 rank above UofT usually. Now Electrical Engineering is considered one of the hardest most time consuming engineering courses there is. ECEs have 4 calculus courses in there first two years, their last one finishes up with the divergence theorem or vector calculus.
Engineering Science on the other hand completes vector calculus by early October of second year. Not only that, but they are required to know the proofs and take time learning random things such as Completeness of Axiom Theorem (CORA), and spend an entire week learning the proof for all continuous functions are integrable. We essentially are required to learn things at twice the rate of ECEs. Not only do our courses go at around twice the speed of ECE but we also have an extra course on them.
The biggest problem with this course for myself is that it requires quite a bit of diversity. Since this course is an accelerated program that tries to teach you ALL fields of engineering at once, you are required to learn Civil, Biology, ECE, Mech, and policy/social/english shit all at once. Even if you can learn math/physics fast, you will just end up dedicating your free time to the course you suck at.
A lot of geniuses are attracted to this program. They may be able to do this program and still have free time but for a retarded person like myself who was still called a "genius" in high school (had a 95 average, with 84 in English) needs to dedicate quite a lot of time to achieve a good mark.
It may be possible for me to scrape by with a high 60 or low 70 and still play the game but why do that? If I were to continue school why not just take the year off and come back and get a better grade instead?
I really hope people don't take this the wrong way, this is the truth, and that is all. If someone wants to say that mb I should just stick in school because clearly I'm not talented if I can't do both at once then you can go ahead and blindly say that.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I would also like to add that it's retarded logic to think that just because one person can do school and be a top player at once means that anyone who cannot do that should not be a pro gamer.
Yeah I honestly don't see how anybody thinks someone can do both school and an esport at a high level. Getting good grades and an esport at a high level MIGHT be possible, but certainly not the way I approach academics. I can never study enough for a class because to truly understand the material it takes insane hours for a difficult subject. I mean at a level beyond getting a good mark.
I really don't see the harm in trying it our for a year and most likely after one year if you are sensible you will return to school. You are a smart guy, statistically the esports route prolly aint gonna work lol, but it will be fun to say you gave it a shot!
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I felt like it's pointless to convey how difficult this program is because people will just assume I'm being arrogant and leave it at that. But since a lot of people keep telling me its possible, I'll try to convey the idea of this program anyway.
University of Toronto is top 13 Engineering Schools in the world. University of Tokyo, known as one of the most retardedly hard schools, is only 1 rank above UofT usually. Now Electrical Engineering is considered one of the hardest most time consuming engineering courses there is. ECEs have 4 calculus courses in there first two years, their last one finishes up with the divergence theorem or vector calculus.
Engineering Science on the other hand completes vector calculus by early October of second year. Not only that, but they are required to know the proofs and take time learning random things such as Completeness of Axiom Theorem (CORA), and spend an entire week learning the proof for all continuous functions are integrable. We essentially are required to learn things at twice the rate of ECEs. Not only do our courses go at around twice the speed of ECE but we also have an extra course on them.
The biggest problem with this course for myself is that it requires quite a bit of diversity. Since this course is an accelerated program that tries to teach you ALL fields of engineering at once, you are required to learn Civil, Biology, ECE, Mech, and policy/social/english shit all at once. Even if you can learn math/physics fast, you will just end up dedicating your free time to the course you suck at.
A lot of geniuses are attracted to this program. They may be able to do this program and still have free time but for a retarded person like myself who was still called a "genius" in high school (had a 95 average, with 84 in English) needs to dedicate quite a lot of time to achieve a good mark.
It may be possible for me to scrape by with a high 60 or low 70 and still play the game but why do that? If I were to continue school why not just take the year off and come back and get a better grade instead?
I really hope people don't take this the wrong way, this is the truth, and that is all. If someone wants to say that mb I should just stick in school because clearly I'm not talented if I can't do both at once then you can go ahead and blindly say that.
TOP 13 WOW! Everyone should shut the fuck up. I'm in princeton's physics department, #1 physics dept, we do vector calculus freshman year except that almost all physics majors already did it in high school and take multivariate analysis or number theory classes instead. I don't go around swinging a big dick because I know theres kids out there smarter than I am and harder-working than i am.
If you don't think you can do both then don't, but don't make this about how hard your program is, because bitches aint shit.
On December 14 2011 10:18 spacefarm wrote: Yeah I honestly don't see how anybody thinks someone can do both school and an esport at a high level. Getting good grades and an esport at a high level MIGHT be possible, but certainly not the way I approach academics. I can never study enough for a class because to truly understand the material it takes insane hours for a difficult subject. I mean at a level beyond getting a good mark.
I really don't see the harm in trying it our for a year and most likely after one year if you are sensible you will return to school. You are a smart guy, statistically the esports route prolly aint gonna work lol, but it will be fun to say you gave it a shot!
For DotA at least, it's really not that difficult. Top tier DotA players outside of China practice so little compared to their RTS counterparts that's there's almost no time commitment outside of playing tournament matches. The mechanics of DotA simply don't require you to practice that much and the emphasis is much more on experience and teamplay.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
Pretty sure JianFei was UT engineering (don't remember if it was Eng sci or some other), and he was at some point top 3 BW player in North America. So.. it's obviously possible.
TOP 13 WOW! Everyone should shut the fuck up. I'm in princeton's physics department, #1 physics dept, we do vector calculus freshman year except that almost all physics majors already did it in high school and take multivariate analysis or number theory classes instead. I don't go around swinging a big dick because I know theres kids out there smarter than I am and harder-working than i am.
If you don't think you can do both then don't, but don't make this about how hard your program is, because bitches aint shit..
lol , well its not actually top 13, but higher, and every year it fluctuates. When i entered, it was ranked 7th. No doubt you are in a very prestigious department, but you must realize there is a difference. Where you are at is really hard to get in, and from what I am guessing, a lot will survive as curriculum 'makes sense' and you guys are generally geniuses from the get go (as in frosh year).
UofT engineering is a bit different. They take in a lot of students and intentionally weed out half the people from the start... which I don't understand. Hence, the curriculum is a nonsensibly difficult, where only incredible geniuses are fit to survive and all the 'smart' people who were getting 90's in 'good' highschools are struggling to even keep up. As for me, when i entered, there were over 620 people in my program. After 3rd year, there were 280 left, and that is adding a bunch of people who have transfered from another program called Track 1. Therefore, UofT engineering is considered by many (and I have read discussions and spoke with fellow engineers from the states) one of the hardest stupitedly ridiculous first 2-3 years. 4th year is quiet a breeze in comparison.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
Pretty sure JianFei was UT engineering (don't remember if it was Eng sci or some other), and he was at some point top 3 BW player in North America. So.. it's obviously possible.
No,
JF is in Chem Engineering, which is mutha****ng hella easier than Ensci and ECE, although quiet heavy course load, and he pretty much doesnt play games from what I know... He's not very good at SC2 it seems. So, in UofT engi, its one or the other.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I felt like it's pointless to convey how difficult this program is because people will just assume I'm being arrogant and leave it at that. But since a lot of people keep telling me its possible, I'll try to convey the idea of this program anyway.
University of Toronto is top 13 Engineering Schools in the world. University of Tokyo, known as one of the most retardedly hard schools, is only 1 rank above UofT usually. Now Electrical Engineering is considered one of the hardest most time consuming engineering courses there is. ECEs have 4 calculus courses in there first two years, their last one finishes up with the divergence theorem or vector calculus.
Engineering Science on the other hand completes vector calculus by early October of second year. Not only that, but they are required to know the proofs and take time learning random things such as Completeness of Axiom Theorem (CORA), and spend an entire week learning the proof for all continuous functions are integrable. We essentially are required to learn things at twice the rate of ECEs. Not only do our courses go at around twice the speed of ECE but we also have an extra course on them.
The biggest problem with this course for myself is that it requires quite a bit of diversity. Since this course is an accelerated program that tries to teach you ALL fields of engineering at once, you are required to learn Civil, Biology, ECE, Mech, and policy/social/english shit all at once. Even if you can learn math/physics fast, you will just end up dedicating your free time to the course you suck at.
A lot of geniuses are attracted to this program. They may be able to do this program and still have free time but for a retarded person like myself who was still called a "genius" in high school (had a 95 average, with 84 in English) needs to dedicate quite a lot of time to achieve a good mark.
It may be possible for me to scrape by with a high 60 or low 70 and still play the game but why do that? If I were to continue school why not just take the year off and come back and get a better grade instead?
I really hope people don't take this the wrong way, this is the truth, and that is all. If someone wants to say that mb I should just stick in school because clearly I'm not talented if I can't do both at once then you can go ahead and blindly say that.
I think you're vastly overrating the difficulty of your courseload. I'm in a top 12 biomedical engineering program and I'd be perfectly comfortable with trying to make it big in DotA and succeed in school at the same time. In fact I'm planning on trying it. You really don't need to drop out to do it, especially since you're actually talented at DotA. Learn to balance your time.
Having seen what EngSci does to people at UofT, I agree that in most cases you probably do need to take time off in order to take anything other than Skule seriously. However, if you don't get an offer from a team or sponsor to at least help to support you in some way I don't think it is a good idea to jump ship immediately. It is too easy to fall through the cracks despite being amazing at what you do. Given what I've read, you won't give a damn one way or another, so long as you still get to play at your best level against equally skilled opponents.
Set a very specific goal and adhere to it. How long are you going let this pan out? How much do you value this opportunity, in both time and money. Are you going to finish this particular degree regardless or would you consider taking an easier degree to allow you to continue playing while finishing school?
Also as an fyi, you have 9 years to complete your degree from time of first enrolment before UofT quashes it (specifically the EngSci one).
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I felt like it's pointless to convey how difficult this program is because people will just assume I'm being arrogant and leave it at that. But since a lot of people keep telling me its possible, I'll try to convey the idea of this program anyway.
University of Toronto is top 13 Engineering Schools in the world. University of Tokyo, known as one of the most retardedly hard schools, is only 1 rank above UofT usually. Now Electrical Engineering is considered one of the hardest most time consuming engineering courses there is. ECEs have 4 calculus courses in there first two years, their last one finishes up with the divergence theorem or vector calculus.
Engineering Science on the other hand completes vector calculus by early October of second year. Not only that, but they are required to know the proofs and take time learning random things such as Completeness of Axiom Theorem (CORA), and spend an entire week learning the proof for all continuous functions are integrable. We essentially are required to learn things at twice the rate of ECEs. Not only do our courses go at around twice the speed of ECE but we also have an extra course on them.
The biggest problem with this course for myself is that it requires quite a bit of diversity. Since this course is an accelerated program that tries to teach you ALL fields of engineering at once, you are required to learn Civil, Biology, ECE, Mech, and policy/social/english shit all at once. Even if you can learn math/physics fast, you will just end up dedicating your free time to the course you suck at.
A lot of geniuses are attracted to this program. They may be able to do this program and still have free time but for a retarded person like myself who was still called a "genius" in high school (had a 95 average, with 84 in English) needs to dedicate quite a lot of time to achieve a good mark.
It may be possible for me to scrape by with a high 60 or low 70 and still play the game but why do that? If I were to continue school why not just take the year off and come back and get a better grade instead?
I really hope people don't take this the wrong way, this is the truth, and that is all. If someone wants to say that mb I should just stick in school because clearly I'm not talented if I can't do both at once then you can go ahead and blindly say that.
I think you're vastly overrating the difficulty of your courseload. I'm in a top 12 biomedical engineering program and I'd be perfectly comfortable with trying to make it big in DotA and succeed in school at the same time. In fact I'm planning on trying it. You really don't need to drop out to do it, especially since you're actually talented at DotA. Learn to balance your time.
4
I guess everyone is the same innately and should be able to do whatever you can do.
Your determined attitude to being professional Dota 2 player is very contradictory to your defeatist attitude in justification that you can't handle school. In most professional games the best players share that determined attitude with all things they do. Ret didn't get jacked just because he wanted to get in shape, just like how he didn't get great at SC because he wanted to. Most pro players also balance their studies well, especially players that are smart enough to realize they aren't going to be in the S class finals anytime soon.
Despite any of that, I don't know what your life is like outside of Dota 2, but whatever it seems like right now, you'll eventually not be happy with living in a lonely apartment on your own. It's a lot sooner than you would think too.
On December 10 2011 11:26 FinestHour wrote: Its possible to balance both serious gaming and school. Many people have done it
not @ UT ENGSCI.
There are people with equally difficult courseloads who studied while playing high level DotA. It's possible.
I felt like it's pointless to convey how difficult this program is because people will just assume I'm being arrogant and leave it at that. But since a lot of people keep telling me its possible, I'll try to convey the idea of this program anyway.
University of Toronto is top 13 Engineering Schools in the world. University of Tokyo, known as one of the most retardedly hard schools, is only 1 rank above UofT usually. Now Electrical Engineering is considered one of the hardest most time consuming engineering courses there is. ECEs have 4 calculus courses in there first two years, their last one finishes up with the divergence theorem or vector calculus.
Engineering Science on the other hand completes vector calculus by early October of second year. Not only that, but they are required to know the proofs and take time learning random things such as Completeness of Axiom Theorem (CORA), and spend an entire week learning the proof for all continuous functions are integrable. We essentially are required to learn things at twice the rate of ECEs. Not only do our courses go at around twice the speed of ECE but we also have an extra course on them.
The biggest problem with this course for myself is that it requires quite a bit of diversity. Since this course is an accelerated program that tries to teach you ALL fields of engineering at once, you are required to learn Civil, Biology, ECE, Mech, and policy/social/english shit all at once. Even if you can learn math/physics fast, you will just end up dedicating your free time to the course you suck at.
A lot of geniuses are attracted to this program. They may be able to do this program and still have free time but for a retarded person like myself who was still called a "genius" in high school (had a 95 average, with 84 in English) needs to dedicate quite a lot of time to achieve a good mark.
It may be possible for me to scrape by with a high 60 or low 70 and still play the game but why do that? If I were to continue school why not just take the year off and come back and get a better grade instead?
I really hope people don't take this the wrong way, this is the truth, and that is all. If someone wants to say that mb I should just stick in school because clearly I'm not talented if I can't do both at once then you can go ahead and blindly say that.
I think you're vastly overrating the difficulty of your courseload. I'm in a top 12 biomedical engineering program and I'd be perfectly comfortable with trying to make it big in DotA and succeed in school at the same time. In fact I'm planning on trying it. You really don't need to drop out to do it, especially since you're actually talented at DotA. Learn to balance your time.
4
I guess everyone is the same innately and should be able to do whatever you can do.
w/e, I can't argue with anyone who believes that.
You said you're doing fairly well in the program, so I don't see why you keep insisting you're not smart/talented enough to balance both. DotA really isn't that big of a time commitment. You're better than me in DotA and doing roughly the same school-wise so you're even better off than I am for trying this.
TOP 13 WOW! Everyone should shut the fuck up. I'm in princeton's physics department, #1 physics dept, we do vector calculus freshman year except that almost all physics majors already did it in high school and take multivariate analysis or number theory classes instead. I don't go around swinging a big dick because I know theres kids out there smarter than I am and harder-working than i am.
If you don't think you can do both then don't, but don't make this about how hard your program is, because bitches aint shit..
What's your main goal in life? Is it just to be happy and satisfied? Or you're aiming something else, like reaching some knowledge to advance society? If you're goal is being happy, and you think that it's subjective, then you should play dota all day if it makes you happy. But if you want something else than just be emotionally satisfied, you should reconsider the objective of playing games. So in fact, it's just about analysing your perspective of life and existance. Just use your reason and read objectively what people say . (I won't give my personal thought because it would be pointless).
It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
You should definitely keep yourself safe from Afghan terrorists. Results would be even more unthinkable than Tony Stark getting kidnapped, because they would force you to entertain them by playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi on top of having you build advanced weaponry.
Honestly the main problem with full time DotA 2 is a team. Yes, individual skill matters, but teamwork is as important if not more, than individual skills. Will you be able to find 4 other person who is online with you every single time to train together?
Let me tell you I have friends who are really high up there in DotA and they go to school too. By high I mean the top few teams in the world. But they still aren't able to win the China team. Why? Because of their teamwork. China team has impeccable teamwork. That is the main difference between China team and other teams. In China I believe they have teamhouses where team mates stay and train together like Starcraft in Korea.
So my advice to you would be, stay in Uni man. You can still play DotA and be good at it. If you want to be the best though, you are going to need 4 more person as dedicated as you are. Even with that it is going to be hard.
On December 10 2011 11:22 Darkren wrote: U sound like u need a psychologue and not quitting school and being stuck infront of a computer alone all day.
Reconsider what makes u happy in life and seek some help.
On December 15 2011 00:03 Scruff wrote: Honestly the main problem with full time DotA 2 is a team. Yes, individual skill matters, but teamwork is as important if not more, than individual skills. Will you be able to find 4 other person who is online with you every single time to train together?
Let me tell you I have friends who are really high up there in DotA and they go to school too. By high I mean the top few teams in the world. But they still aren't able to win the China team. Why? Because of their teamwork. China team has impeccable teamwork. That is the main difference between China team and other teams. In China I believe they have teamhouses where team mates stay and train together like Starcraft in Korea.
So my advice to you would be, stay in Uni man. You can still play DotA and be good at it. If you want to be the best though, you are going to need 4 more person as dedicated as you are. Even with that it is going to be hard.
EternalEnvy was a top tier HoN player. No doubt he can find a team. So you probably shouldn't make these type of comments if you don't know his background.
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
Such bullshit it's incredible, So ur gonna finish a PHD a M.D and J.D while being a top Dota player learning guitar and making sushi. Ur gonna do that all before 18..... can we know ur secret identity cause this is the most bullshit i ever read no one can do that
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
Such bullshit it's incredible, So ur gonna finish a PHD a M.D and J.D while being a top Dota player learning guitar and making sushi. Ur gonna do that all before 18..... can we know ur secret identity cause this is the most bullshit i ever read no one can do that
Holy shit I heard there were people on the internet as stupid as you, but I didn't know it was true.
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
Such bullshit it's incredible, So ur gonna finish a PHD a M.D and J.D while being a top Dota player learning guitar and making sushi. Ur gonna do that all before 18..... can we know ur secret identity cause this is the most bullshit i ever read no one can do that
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
You should definitely keep yourself safe from Afghan terrorists. Results would be even more unthinkable than Tony Stark getting kidnapped, because they would force you to entertain them by playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi on top of having you build advanced weaponry.
On December 14 2011 15:33 s_side wrote: It seems like a lot of people in this thread are blowing things out of proportion. Anyone who is not capable of achieving academic goals while being a premiere Dota player is simply an inferior person.
I am currently enrolled as an undergraduate at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT (concurrently). I take a moderate course load of 48 credit hours per semester.
I am planning on having completed my PhDs in Nuclear Engineering and Physics, as well as my M.D. and J.D. by the time I am 18.
When I'm not turning down offers from sponsored DoTA teams, I enjoy oil painting, playing classical guitar and making dessert sushi.
Such bullshit it's incredible, So ur gonna finish a PHD a M.D and J.D while being a top Dota player learning guitar and making sushi. Ur gonna do that all before 18..... can we know ur secret identity cause this is the most bullshit i ever read no one can do that
On December 15 2011 00:03 Scruff wrote: Honestly the main problem with full time DotA 2 is a team. Yes, individual skill matters, but teamwork is as important if not more, than individual skills. Will you be able to find 4 other person who is online with you every single time to train together?
Let me tell you I have friends who are really high up there in DotA and they go to school too. By high I mean the top few teams in the world. But they still aren't able to win the China team. Why? Because of their teamwork. China team has impeccable teamwork. That is the main difference between China team and other teams. In China I believe they have teamhouses where team mates stay and train together like Starcraft in Korea.
So my advice to you would be, stay in Uni man. You can still play DotA and be good at it. If you want to be the best though, you are going to need 4 more person as dedicated as you are. Even with that it is going to be hard.
EternalEnvy was a top tier HoN player. No doubt he can find a team. So you probably shouldn't make these type of comments if you don't know his background.
Your are going solo on a team game. Scruff made an argument that DOTA games are TEAM games. you can be the chuck noris of HoN but if you have 4 bad teamates you can't win.
also you can't "win tournaments" alone when it's teams that register. If it was starcraft 2, I would say GO DO IT. but this is a team game, you can't hope to win alone not matter how good you are.
as much as i love twitch/justin as a viewer, it would make more sense for you to stream over own3d. not just do they pay a little better (thus is why destiny recently moved over to own3d), they also allow you to run up to 3 commercials in a row, which is way better for a dota player due to the longer games
On December 15 2011 13:16 rohanim41 wrote: Your are going solo on a team game. Scruff made an argument that DOTA games are TEAM games. you can be the chuck noris of HoN but if you have 4 bad teamates you can't win.
also you can't "win tournaments" alone when it's teams that register. If it was starcraft 2, I would say GO DO IT. but this is a team game, you can't hope to win alone not matter how good you are.
Unlike most people who post these 'progamer' threads, you have already proven you are a good player, and have shown you have the general work ethic/intelligence, to get into one of the best universities in the world. So taking time off to play DOTA seriously isn't some escapist cop-out, but rather the choice of someone who, so far, has shown they know what they're doing.
Why not take a year out and try and follow your dreams? Now seems a good time to try, and if it fails you can just go back, perhaps refreshed and more excited about your course.
Finish the degree, then do this. If the money drops out of dota, or your skill lessens as you age, or you don't find the right team, of valve end up being cunts, or etc etc...
My mother always said to me while growing up, "Son, do what you love and you won't be sad. But get a good qualification just in case. If you get your degree and then tell me you want to be a rubbish collector for the rest of your days, then I'm fine with that, just have a backup plan."
When I was 18 I didn't want to attend university, I'd had enough education. But I took a backup plan, I applied for a deferred entry (1 year gap) and then got a solid job earning way more than anyone I knew. Was 18 years old on 26k pounds a year, with car and phone supplied. Rolling in the money. Before I started the job I had some pretty badly conceived notions about what it was like and after 7 months I was sick of it. But I realized something, "Shit I don't have any qualifications I can't get another job even though I don't like this line of work." That job was in sales, and I was sick of sales. Trouble is with no qualification you can only work as what you have experience in... oh shit thats sales! In your case when your gaming skill fades you won't have anything else on the table that you can do. There'll be no relevant experience either... The degree gives flexibility, it shows you can apply yourself to something for 4-5 years through all the bad/good of it and come out with a finished product. In my case I had made a backup plan and when the original plan fell through I had nothing to fear and attended university like any other student.
You say you can go back to college, but what if dota is good for the first year? And you choose not to. What about 5 years down the line when you're not as good as you are now? Its well known age negatively effects play past about 22. What about if the tournaments don't put out as much money as is really neccessary to have a good life? After all you have to split the winnings between 5 compared with no one in starcraft. Meaning the investiture needs to either be 5 times the amount (never going to happen, ever) or you need to win, every match all the time regardless of if your team mates have a bad day. If you have a degree you still have an option if your skill fades. If it doesn't no worries, but you don't know that for sure.
TL;DR - Follow your dreams, but always have a backup plan. Money can't buy you happiness, but poverty will definitely make you sad. Your placing your own income not just in your own hands, but in the hands of the other 4 people in your team. Unless you find others who are willing to give the same level of determination and skill as yourself, and come with the same "this is my income/life/job" attitude, then you should be looking at SC2/SC not DotA2. Dota2 cant go on a CV in 10 years, a degree still can. So get the degree, and then play and see how it goes. If it doesn't work out at least you have the degree to whack on a CV later.
GL with whatever choice you make, always enjoyed watching you play even if it was like 90% soulstealer and defiler (lololol)
On December 15 2011 00:03 Scruff wrote: Honestly the main problem with full time DotA 2 is a team. Yes, individual skill matters, but teamwork is as important if not more, than individual skills. Will you be able to find 4 other person who is online with you every single time to train together?
Let me tell you I have friends who are really high up there in DotA and they go to school too. By high I mean the top few teams in the world. But they still aren't able to win the China team. Why? Because of their teamwork. China team has impeccable teamwork. That is the main difference between China team and other teams. In China I believe they have teamhouses where team mates stay and train together like Starcraft in Korea.
So my advice to you would be, stay in Uni man. You can still play DotA and be good at it. If you want to be the best though, you are going to need 4 more person as dedicated as you are. Even with that it is going to be hard.
EternalEnvy was a top tier HoN player. No doubt he can find a team. So you probably shouldn't make these type of comments if you don't know his background.
So what if he was a top tier HoN player? Firstly, its goddamn HoN which, at the top level is vastly different from DotA 2. Mind you, even DotA 1 is very different from 2. Secondly, good if he can find a team. But will it be a good team? Is everyone in the team going to quit school to play full time too? You don't get my point do you? They need to practice together to really break into the top top level which of course he needs to achieve so as to make his "sacrifice for uni" worth it.
It isn't just a number or a score, that's a thousand people who's interest you need to get and maintain for 8 hours a day if you want to make a living off of this. Assuming you play 4 ads in between each game.
On December 16 2011 02:11 droit wrote: Where do you plan on getting 1000 viewers?
It isn't just a number or a score, that's a thousand people who's interest you need to get and maintain for 8 hours a day if you want to make a living off of this. Assuming you play 4 ads in between each game.
I think you are delusional.
How can you say he's delusional? He's said that he's trying it out to see what happens and if worst comes to worst, then he'll go back to school. His HoN/DotA background could easily net him 1000 viewers, though he'd obviously have to work his way up to that mark with an entertaining stream (music/commentary and whatnot) and constant and consistent stream hours. It's definitely unlikely that he'd be able to make enough money initially to "make a living" but who knows, if he gets an opportunity to play on a competitive DotA 2 team then it's certainly not out of the question.
Hope to see you online, I'll probably be playing under the name "aif" but who knows.
I think most of the people in this thread didn't even read the fucking OP. As far as I'm concerned I'd watch YanagiNagi stream again that guy was so good in HoN then just disappeared. I fully support your decision and it's not like you can't finish your degree afterwards. As far as streaming goes I'd try to get a hold of Korok or Zaku they seem to bring in quite a few numbers and if I'm not mistaken Zaku is on DWi/Jokes on You/Complexity(even though breaky and phil got their sponsorship pulled)
Just finishing up grad school myself and the job market really sucks right now, if you can make some money for the time being and go back to school to finish your degree in a few years when things improve, that would be a good way to go.
I'm not gonna judge whatever you end up doing... i probably would do the gaming thing too BUT I don't think you're considering the making money thing enough. You need atleast a few thousand viewers to make a decent amount of money from streaming 10+ hours a day. I would advise you to think of ways to gain more veiwers before you do this or theres just no point in streaming.
I get that engineering science is hard (I went to UofT and have about a dozen friends that were in engsci)... but you really should just finish your degree first. It gets exponentially harder to get back into school every year you're out of it. Your grades will suffer dramatically if you even take a single year off. As an engsci graduate (especially if you do PEY), you'll start off making $50k+. And with grades in the 80s, you're a bit more than decent.
Anyways, that's my elderly advice. So let's go to talking about some of your concerns themselves.
2 commercials between games isn't a big deal. Hell 3 isn't either. Especially considering the fact that by April there will probably be some in-house leagues that'll take 5 minutes or more to set up a game anyways.
You should also be aware that you will need thousands of viewers to get any remotely reasonable income from streaming. You have to realize there are many people that use adblock, not everyone gets an ad everytime you hit that commercial button and the rates in general aren't great. Streaming to 1000 viewers with only 4-5 commercials an hour isn't exactly huge money. You're looking at probably $5 an hour in that system. You'd want to break at least 1k viewers consistently to have enough money to sort of live off of (but ideally 2k). Suggestion would be to include as much commentary as possible when you're playing. Explain why you're buying certain items, what you're afraid of from the enemy, why you chose a hero... absolutely anything and everything you can to boost the marketability of your stream.
But just think about how hard this is going to be. Many popular DotA pros streaming on TL can barely break 1k (while featured). You won't be featured. It'll be hard to advertise your stream. You better provide something they don't.
About coaching, not going to happen yet. This game isn't that widespread yet. Maybe when the game releases, you'll be able to find people that want coaching. But it won't be easy. It is much harder to coach someone in DotA than it is SC2. More importantly, anyone that's serious about DotA probably knows some people that are better than them that can help them improve.
Anyways, streaming 10-13 hours a day and being entertaining while you do it... I think it's possible to make enough money to get by (albeit unlikely). But I'd plan on living with your parents and save money wherever possible. I'd also start streaming ASAP and maybe only doing a few hours a week for the rest of the school year. Hopefully you can build a bit of a following in that time frame.
I get that engineering science is hard (I went to UofT and have about a dozen friends that were in engsci)... but you really should just finish your degree first. It gets exponentially harder to get back into school every year you're out of it. Your grades will suffer dramatically if you even take a single year off. As an engsci graduate (especially if you do PEY), you'll start off making $50k+. And with grades in the 80s, you're a bit more than decent.
This + if you're playing semi-competitive at the moment with free time why not keep going with that and build up your name + hype. Would be a lot more prudent and you have the option of playing over the summer hardcore and deciding then.
Yup. Use the summer as a gauge. If you realize you can get viewer numbers and earn a reasonable income, only then should you even remotely consider taking time off school.
Take a look at someone like qxc. He's not going SC2 full-time until he's done his degree. There's no reason you should stop halfway through something that is a pretty big investment.
If you want to try this, do it now while you still have options like living with your parents and getting cheaper health insurance through their plan. After graduating this sort of thing becomes significantly more difficult. Also, if you're not really focused on being an engineer, it's better to take some time off and do what you want to do so that if/when you do come back to your studies it's because you want to do it and can be excited about learning.
Taking time off school isn't dropping out. Plenty of universities will suspend your enrollment for a year (sometimes more) while you do other things. Not everyone is a kid coming out of high school with nothing better to do than go to college. Sometimes people can't afford school, sometimes they have more pressing concerns, etc. Take a shot. If you were that good at HoN and you know a good group of people to play DotA 2 with, you'll never regret traveling around the world playing video games and putting off college for a year or two.
If you was somewhat famous in hon you could probably get a decent amount of viewers to start off with. And i take by what you wrote that you would gain a quite high mmr fast and get matched with some of the better players out there and if you show that you can deliver once there it should be no problem GL
I think I saw him streaming on occasion. Feels like he plays but not too often, so I wager he probably stayed in school. Good decision I think, not sure how streaming can pay for anything in toronto.. hell I don't even think it'd cover rent.
i dropped out of school back when i was 18 (im 24 now) it was the worst decision of my life. sure i played in online dota tourny like htgnpro, was in cal-m for source, and got gladiator 3x in wow and sold my account for 600dollars but that was by far the stupidest shit ive done in my life.
now im back in 2nd year university and it is not nearly as fun as the first time. you'd think sleeping with hot 19 year olds will make you feel better but it doesnt. and my best friend who now earns 200k per year and drives a bmw had to make me feel weird by reminding me of the fact that when i was 18 those girls were 14
to conclude: unless you are stupidly good and join a professional team and win big tournys (which 99.99% of gamers are not capable of) dropping out of school will also be the dumbest decision you will make in your life.
He was stuck in the same old na inhouses grind like everyone else for a while and just recently teamed up for nTh. Wore some other tags but didn't go far with that.
His plan you can see is still laughable. Streaming 10-13 hours a day, coaching, and winning money from tournaments to have money. Or continue at UofT. This was in December 2011 loooooool. Nowhere near the teammates until recently and skill is arguable.
I don't hate the guy or anything just wanted to say the OP post was ridiculous as it is now and its been a year.
The question i'm really wondering is. Is he happy now? If he is, then no problem. If pursuing DOTA was just a means of fleeing while not actually solving the issues that make him unhappy... I'm really curious about this, eventhough i doubt i'll even know.
On December 10 2011 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
Destiny isn't the only player who can make a living by streaming. He is just most likely the only player who does, there are plenty of people who get tons more viewers than him like Stephano, IdrA(I'm zerg so I don't really watch other streams.) The point is Destiny makes a living through streaming because he streams like 12 hours a day or used to. If Stephano streamed as much as Destiny he would get twice as much money. Likewise if people with half the viewers of Destiny streamed twice as much as him they could make just as much money. It's all relative, but if you can't pull in at least 1000 viewers on average it's not very economical to stream for a living.
On December 10 2011 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You're going to quit becoming an engineer just because someone dubbed you into the Hitler meme? My friend is an engineer and he makes 60K a year, and you're excited to make $8/ hour? McDonald's pays better.
My main problem is that you clearly don't have the passion for it. It looks like you just consider pro-gaming a regular job and nothing else. You're going to get bored and stop. You even said in your post that you played only 12 hours in one month. Now you're going to do that every day?
I don't see you prioritizing this right. Destiny is pretty much the only player who can make a living off streaming, and that's because of his personality. What makes you think you'd get more than 100 viewers? Being good =/= many viewers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh; I just want you to be realistic. You have a good thing going for you right now.
Destiny isn't the only player who can make a living by streaming. He is just most likely the only player who does, there are plenty of people who get tons more viewers than him like Stephano, IdrA(I'm zerg so I don't really watch other streams.) The point is Destiny makes a living through streaming because he streams like 12 hours a day or used to. If Stephano streamed as much as Destiny he would get twice as much money. Likewise if people with half the viewers of Destiny streamed twice as much as him they could make just as much money. It's all relative, but if you can't pull in at least 1000 viewers on average it's not very economical to stream for a living.
This is all from a year ago, when maybe not as many people streamed. Think about it.
On October 25 2012 13:29 Itsmedudeman wrote: You guys do know you can go back to school at any time, right?
Ya, but not everyone wants to be the 40 yr old who still lives at home and working on his degree.
also starting a career at 40 is a lot less financially beneficial than starting it at 25.
Pretty sure you can leave school, go pro and then come back and graduate school before 30, unless you opt for a law or medical degree, in which case, age doesn't really matter.
In a moment of Spike Traffic, when the streaming eats about 99% of your bandwith you will most likely lag. Now lagging sucks.
cfosspeed is the program called with which you will prioritize the dota2.exe over the streaming program exe. The thing here is even if you stream at 99% upload, you will not encounter lag at all. This thing just is insane. Same goes for a download or a torrent. Everything can be done without your ping going up by one.
I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
On December 10 2011 11:17 EternaLEnVy wrote: NEW EDIT:
Due to parents, I've decided to delay this till mid April. Thanks a lot everyone, but now I'll have more time to do more indepth research. However, I would like to have more input. The neat thing about this thread is that I'm getting a lot of suggestions that an computer noob like me has yet to consider.
END EDIT
Hello, I am a shut in kid from Canada who doesn't know anything but Math, Science, random shit, anime, and video games. I made this thread in order to get some help but first let me explain the situation:
My IGN is EternaLEnVy in HoN and DotA and my SC2 name is YanagiNagi. I have not played SC2 since July, and HoN since August of 2010. I played DotA for a few weeks in August of this year but haven't really played seriously since probably mid 2008. I played mid solo for DWi (Deal With It) and was rank 2 on the ladder for a few months in HoN. I won one major tournament under this team and placed fairly high in every other. I believe this team is called Complexity now. I was rank 2 in DotA Cash Tier 2 (under Aisaka_Taiga) while I was messing around for a few weeks in august but I doubt that actually matters.
OK SO ENOUGH OF THAT HERE IS THE SITUATION:
I'm a 2nd year Engineering Science Student at the University of Toronto. It's basically this extremely fucking retarded course that destroys your soul:
Although I'm doing decently in this program (low 80 average ish), I've decided that before starting the 2nd half of 2nd year, to go on "leave" and start playing DotA seriously. Basically I can come back to school if I fail miserably. To make money I plan on streaming (10-13 hours a day every day), coaching (not sure how this works), and winning tournaments. If I end up failing miserably in gaming I can go back to school.
HERE ARE MY CONCERNS: 1. Streaming. Where do I stream? I was originally thinking of Justin.TV but then I heard of a site called Own3d from my friend that apparently pays better. I would appreciate it if anyone could compare these two sites for me.
My second concern in streaming is in money. On Justin.TV you get $0.002 for every ad you show a viewer, so basically $2 for every ad given 1000 viewers. Some people have further extrapolated this to 4 games/hour in SC2 and thus $8 every hour. This worries me because DotA games last much longer, probably would take 45minutes on average to find a game, pick, and play. I'm also not too sure about the math being used here, do people really only show one ad after every game? Say I show an ad after I finish a game and another b4 my 2nd game starts, would this be frowned upon? I don't watch DotA 2 streams so if anyone could tell me how it works that would be great.
2. Canada Sucks Streaming in Canada fucking sucks. Our internet is overpriced and we don't get enough bandwidth or options. But honestly I know nothing about any of this stuff so I'm here to get input. I'm willing to pay more for better internet service but I'm stuck with Rogers for another 2 years I believe due to a contract. What internet speed do I need to play while streaming and not lag. How much bandwidth would I need to stream 12 hours per day every day for a month. And if possible, help me choose a plan that would be able to solve this issue. I also hear that you could call up rogers and make a deal with them, if anyone knows anything about this please comment.
Those two are my main concerns other than personal ones. If anyone knows anything else I should look into, please comment on that as well. I could probably do some more research of my own but its exam period and I need to make this choice before the end of the semester, so I apologize if it feels like I'm leeching too much.
Thanks for your help.
EDIT:
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS NOT TO CONVINCE ME OF STAYING IN SCHOOL. You have no right to judge me because you know nothing about what I've considered. It is unfair to criticize someone's judgement that they took many hours considering on whim. Please don't derail the thread.
If you intend to continue anyway, please understand that I CAN GO BACK TO SCHOOL if I fail. It's only a year or two of my life. My financial issues aren't so bad that these two years would cost my life.
To make this even close to worth it, you better be THE hands down BEST player in Dota2, no question or hesitation whatsoever. I don't know the scene at all, so you might be, I'm just saying, if you aren't an outstandingly good well-known player, this is a terribly stupid decision.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Just so you know, unless you make it your income is very likely to decrease by a lot more than 10%. Honestly, I didnt even know about this one year ago, but right now all i can say is im actually glad for this guy, he's not made it yet, but you definitely cant put a value on dreams and and happiness. I wonder what his motivation for this was though.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Just so you know, unless you make it your income is very likely to decrease by a lot more than 10%.
He means after he stops progaming and starts doing whatever he was going to do in the first place.
You also seem to assume success ... which is admirable in someone who realises all the opposition to his success yet still feels it anyway
other wise dunning-kruger
You concern really shouldnt be with viewers it shuld be getting sponsored enough so that you can live off it and have a plan to maintain it and grow it into an organisation whereby you then can pay others who want to be you a salary.
If that isnt your plan then you are a kid whos seriously about to piss off parents that have invested probably someone where into the region of £100 grand into you over the course of your life to try and get you into a position where you can support yourself.
By all means play games as a profession but if you are thinking about $8 an hour you are sadly deluded about how much income you really need in the western world to have a life by which when you retire you arnt fucked.
You say you do maths ... do you know that you will foget it all if you stop using it for a few years. You cannot really teach yourself maths from a book ... They just dont show you everything you need.
Im all for doing what you want ... but do it big. Dont wonder about how to get $8 an hour ... thats just sad.
If you hate your course ... the correct answer is to look at what you can do and know and find a new course - that you like. Preferably a niche.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
I'll tell you one thing I get matched up against this guy pretty often and he tries very hard every game. Mad props because not relaxing in pubs is important if you want to become a professional and it's tough to get rid of those habits.
Hands down one of the worst ideas i've ever seen. Sorry man, I know what it's like to have a dream of playing Dota/SC2/Halo professionally, but just taking the time off isn't really worth it. It's time wasted when you can be building connections, internship, studying abroad, etc.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
To be fair, taking time off of the "safe road" to try for something like this (progaming, music, acting, these kinds of careers) is always a bad idea until you succeed. But you won't know if you don't try.
I hope people in this thread aren't telling him otherwise because they're just too pussy to do it themselves.
It's really about how badly you want it and if you would sacrifice a huge part of your life to attempt it. Most don't want it badly enough. Some will try and fail. A few will make it.
Envy is a good player.. Ive matched with / against him before. I think he should get an official team before making the jump. But either way, Good luck man. do work.
Halloween is a good time for thread necromancy I guess?
Anyway, I think Envy was supposed to be part of that Fnatic`RC team being made by PowerNet, but that fell through, which is part of why he is teamless.
Played vs him once in MM... agree with Chouji about him tryharding XD. Was pretty glad when that server crashed halfway thru the game.
On October 30 2012 02:31 Sn0_Man wrote: Halloween is a good time for thread necromancy I guess?
Anyway, I think Envy was supposed to be part of that Fnatic`RC team being made by PowerNet, but that fell through, which is part of why he is teamless.
Played vs him once in MM... agree with Chouji about him tryharding XD. Was pretty glad when that server crashed halfway thru the game.
On October 30 2012 02:31 Sn0_Man wrote: Halloween is a good time for thread necromancy I guess?
Anyway, I think Envy was supposed to be part of that Fnatic`RC team being made by PowerNet, but that fell through, which is part of why he is teamless.
Played vs him once in MM... agree with Chouji about him tryharding XD. Was pretty glad when that server crashed halfway thru the game.
Oh, NTH found a 5th? nice. I was more responding to some guy who said "don't do this without a team" (6 months after envy already did it XD)
Looking forward to more AdmiralBulldog on heroes that aren't lone druid XD (his Furion was really impressive the one time I saw it)
EDIT: Oh, more than just "found a fifth". Kinda funny seeing 4 swede's and a Canadian on a team though. Drafting might end up much like Zenith w/Loda, except its NTH w/EternalEnvy lol.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
I remember reading this thread one year ago, and seeing all the flack you got. I think it is really awesome that one year later you are playing with Loda and Akke, respect man and good luck.
I remember watching you a bit in HoN! As a former Toronto resident with friends in Toronto, I believe TekSavvy has comparatively reasonably priced unlimited bandwidth options. Distributel is even cheaper, but I don't have any trusted reports on their service.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
I don't know any engineers who make millions of dollars in the span of 2-5 years.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
I also recall reading this back then but didn't really have anything to contribute and didn't want to join the naysayers. Nice to see that you made it fairly big and showed them, keep it up.
I'm sure theres a few billion people working in their boring jobs they hate, earning their precious money. So having a few dreamers around isn't all that bad. I'l stick to my boring work for now since I lack the drive you have.
Hoping that the community didn't scare you away a year ago.
UofT is probably one of the best Canadian schools out there, but I agree Engineering is stupidly difficult, and if you have a passion that you can seriously chase and do well in, then go for it! I support you man.
There is an abnormally large amount of people in this topic who care more about making lots of money than doing what actually makes them happy...I actually thought I was reading a bunch of troll messages for a moment. The only compelling argument against the OP's plan was that in terms of Engineering, this was career suicide. But what if he was studying in another field? Would the response have been the same?
On October 30 2012 20:30 TylerThaCreator wrote: There is an abnormally large amount of people in this topic who care more about making lots of money than doing what actually makes them happy...I actually thought I was reading a bunch of troll messages for a moment. The only compelling argument against the OP's plan was that in terms of Engineering, this was career suicide. But what if he was studying in another field? Would the response have been the same?
+1 I find it sad that even here, where we all come for the simple reason that we like professional gaming, it is stigmatized. Is it really so hard to imagine that some people do not choose their future based on the size of the paycheck, but rather based on their desires?
well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
So let me get this straight...if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? So I guess professional athletes are sociopaths?
And eSports is on the rise. StarCraft players and many LoL players are already making livable salaries, and Dota 2 isn't far behind.
Basically, MotherOfRunes might as well have said "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to get up on this soap box and tell you how to live your life, even though I know nothing about you, nothing about your situation, nothing about the job market in north American, nothing about engineering or how it works...really I don't know a lot, but let me preach to you"...and it would have read exactly the same way.
And how dare you tell someone to rethink what they want out of life, implying that this isn't it, and somehow you would know better? You have to be a special kind of fool to think it's your place to tell others what they want out of life.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
Just for the people that were like, dont do this guy, you are probably terrible and wont get into a competetive team ever, or to the ones saying the he was on NTH but he droped with the team...
NTH Roster Jonathan "Loda" Berg Joakim "Akke" Akterhall Jacky "EternaLEnVy" Mao Henrik "AdmiralBulldog" Ahnberg Gustav "s4" Magnusson
Sounds like the guy was actually good. Judging if joining a pro team and living the dream worth or not the years of your life, is a different point. Hope the guy enjoys his time and make some actual money if possible
I was thinking of taking a break from school also to try and pursue streaming and see if I could get a foothold within the community. But then I realized that doing that is really difficult. I mean I can't even pull off more than 10 viewers right now and I stream pretty much every day for around 4-6 hours. I really have no idea how to get a good sized audience for streaming right now. I really wish that I had a decent computer back when streaming games was really new. Good luck in your endeavor though
On October 31 2012 07:41 QQKachoo wrote: I was thinking of taking a break from school also to try and pursue streaming and see if I could get a foothold within the community. But then I realized that doing that is really difficult. I mean I can't even pull off more than 10 viewers right now and I stream pretty much every day for around 4-6 hours. I really have no idea how to get a good sized audience for streaming right now. I really wish that I had a decent computer back when streaming games was really new. Good luck in your endeavor though
well I dont know you so maybe you are already there =) but the first thing you need to do is make yourself a good enough dota player (elite) for people to watch
On October 30 2012 23:38 Brainling wrote: So let me get this straight...if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? So I guess professional athletes are sociopaths?
And eSports is on the rise. StarCraft players and many LoL players are already making livable salaries, and Dota 2 isn't far behind.
Basically, MotherOfRunes might as well have said "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to get up on this soap box and tell you how to live your life, even though I know nothing about you, nothing about your situation, nothing about the job market in north American, nothing about engineering or how it works...really I don't know a lot, but let me preach to you"...and it would have read exactly the same way.
And how dare you tell someone to rethink what they want out of life, implying that this isn't it, and somehow you would know better? You have to be a special kind of fool to think it's your place to tell others what they want out of life.
roflmao its cool how aggressive people react when you speak out the unspeakable. and it seems u didnt make the effort reading my post accurate, so i wont bother reading yours accuratly either. oh but if i understand you right you would think its ok if a person commits suicide, if its the thing that would make the person REALLY happy. some people really think suicide would make them happy, like there are people outthere who think sitting 24/7 infront of the pc is what makes em happy (which btw is a kind of long term suicide for your health if you dont do anything to balance it out)
and its also very amusing how naiv you are in terms of esports and salaries. who cares if you earn enough money to live from it when it only lasts 4 years and after that you stand in life with nothing.
also your sentence "..if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? " makes me really laugh since its the best proof you didnt bother readin my post well....i never said that, try to read my post again....speaking of talking about something you have no idea about (of which you accused me), you have no idea about how much i hate our monetary society and how people become more and more stupid by that. but gamers like you and many others are not mature enough to realize the social danger you put yourself into by doing that. and i still dont understand why people would "abandon" the real world, with all its beauty in it for this virtual imposter. having "friends" you talk with everyday over skype while gaming with them allday is not the same as having real friends with who you really meet FACE TO FACE, making a real connection. but like i said (yes i repeat it for you because it seems you didnt read) " normally it indicates sociopaths" so lets break this down: "normally" its your native language do i really have to explain to you how this word works? same goes for "indicates" to indicate is something far from proving. so why do you twist the words in my mouth? angry gamer is angry
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
Social danger is relative. While there are things that are absolute and objective, happiness and satisfaction is mostly relative and subjective.
It all depends on the person, Pursuing a gaming career is not better than Pursuing a normal career and vice-versa. I don't even see why we need to go into long discussions about this =\
But anyway, 'grats to eternal envy. Loved watching NTH play
Wow, to play on the same team as Akke and Loda! Envy looked a bit crazy when he first made his post, but now I realize that he is quite damn good at what he's doing, and he likes it too. Mad props to you man
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
Like I said, come up with more convincing arguments please, and use proper examples.
Pursuing gaming while one is young isn't all bad. It would be particularly hard if someone is taking out a loan for school, is already working a job to support himself through engineering program, etc. etc. But from all the inference, I have to think that my fellow Torontonian is in a much much better position than what I just said. One more factor to consider is the skill level of the person. In this case, I happen to think there is a bright future for him with NTH. Sponsorship and tournament success may be more probable than not in this case.
Thus, on a case-by-case basis on both personal background and ability to succeed, I have to think in this case it is not too bad of an idea. In addition, going through the regime for a summer as a trial run could be good. If this "summer job" doesn't work, he can still go back to school and finish his degree without any delay at all.
My conclusion is there is certainly risk, but it is VERY manageable in OP's case. Therefore, I think some comments are overly harsh in this scenario.
On October 30 2012 23:38 Brainling wrote: So let me get this straight...if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? So I guess professional athletes are sociopaths?
And eSports is on the rise. StarCraft players and many LoL players are already making livable salaries, and Dota 2 isn't far behind.
Basically, MotherOfRunes might as well have said "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to get up on this soap box and tell you how to live your life, even though I know nothing about you, nothing about your situation, nothing about the job market in north American, nothing about engineering or how it works...really I don't know a lot, but let me preach to you"...and it would have read exactly the same way.
And how dare you tell someone to rethink what they want out of life, implying that this isn't it, and somehow you would know better? You have to be a special kind of fool to think it's your place to tell others what they want out of life.
roflmao its cool how aggressive people react when you speak out the unspeakable. and it seems u didnt make the effort reading my post accurate, so i wont bother reading yours accuratly either. oh but if i understand you right you would think its ok if a person commits suicide, if its the thing that would make the person REALLY happy. some people really think suicide would make them happy, like there are people outthere who think sitting 24/7 infront of the pc is what makes em happy (which btw is a kind of long term suicide for your health if you dont do anything to balance it out)
and its also very amusing how naiv you are in terms of esports and salaries. who cares if you earn enough money to live from it when it only lasts 4 years and after that you stand in life with nothing.
also your sentence "..if you dedicate your whole life to "real work" and big dollars...you're a normal, well adjusted person....but if you dedicate your life to a video game, where you can also make money, you're a sociopath? " makes me really laugh since its the best proof you didnt bother readin my post well....i never said that, try to read my post again....speaking of talking about something you have no idea about (of which you accused me), you have no idea about how much i hate our monetary society and how people become more and more stupid by that. but gamers like you and many others are not mature enough to realize the social danger you put yourself into by doing that. and i still dont understand why people would "abandon" the real world, with all its beauty in it for this virtual imposter. having "friends" you talk with everyday over skype while gaming with them allday is not the same as having real friends with who you really meet FACE TO FACE, making a real connection. but like i said (yes i repeat it for you because it seems you didnt read) " normally it indicates sociopaths" so lets break this down: "normally" its your native language do i really have to explain to you how this word works? same goes for "indicates" to indicate is something far from proving. so why do you twist the words in my mouth? angry gamer is angry
I think the person you're trying to have an argument with is winning simply because he has a clue about how to format a text.
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
You do know that Nazgul playing poker for money and went to Korea to play BW right?...... Yes he created something else as his living but he too quote un-quote threw away part of his "life". Go get in your M3 and leave this forum sir. Doesn't matter if he made it not sitting infront of a computer all day but it comprised a majority of it especially during his broodwar stinct you don't get good at broodwar(or starcraft 2 or dota for that matter) going to partys.
Going pro is not that easy or magical, if we all could do it and be great we would do it. The thing is if you get really good at dota 2 you need a team to compete with.
Long run earnings with college degree> long run earnings without a college degree.
Dota 2 looks cool if you win it but that is hard to do and you need a team to take care of you, better to be semi pro and go to school take a lighter load of classes and play your heart out and if you get on a team you can decide what u want to do. QXC sc 2 pro got his degree then went full time pro, if sc 2 career dies he has his degree to get a real job.
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
Like I said, come up with more convincing arguments please, and use proper examples.
Pursuing gaming while one is young isn't all bad. It would be particularly hard if someone is taking out a loan for school, is already working a job to support himself through engineering program, etc. etc. But from all the inference, I have to think that my fellow Torontonian is in a much much better position than what I just said. One more factor to consider is the skill level of the person. In this case, I happen to think there is a bright future for him with NTH. Sponsorship and tournament success may be more probable than not in this case.
Thus, on a case-by-case basis on both personal background and ability to succeed, I have to think in this case it is not too bad of an idea. In addition, going through the regime for a summer as a trial run could be good. If this "summer job" doesn't work, he can still go back to school and finish his degree without any delay at all.
My conclusion is there is certainly risk, but it is VERY manageable in OP's case. Therefore, I think some comments are overly harsh in this scenario.
i was speaking general while the op already accomplished the first steps, which makes me happy for him. nothing was really directed towards him alone
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
If a person just enjoys playing and creating music alone, what's wrong with that? It's possible to be successful purely online, at least in certain genres. Also there are many professions where people 'sit alone in their room all the time all year'. Take a writer for example.
I understand what's at the root of these kind of criticisms. When you are young it can feel that games are the only world that matters - but when you go out into the world of work, relationships, finances and responsibilities, you get a much healthier perspective. So yes, it's important to learn about the rest of life
But once you know that world, can't you still decide you'd prefer to take the route of your passions？ I've been in the working world for a few years out of university, and I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that doing what I love would make me happier than doing what is safe and financially secure - and I don't think that's immature. A tonne of studies show that happiness doesn't rise with income once you hit a certain (fairly low) threshold; you just get caught on a hedonic treadmill, buying more and more expensive things that you don't truly need.
If your dream is to have a family, that's a different story - you need to provide for them.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
i think he means with inflation, but i still disagree with his views and premise.
the world is random, you can make a plan for your entire life, or be opportunistic and strive for success in what you love.
him being a pro dota player will inadvertently shape and present different opportunities than beginning his cubicle life earlier. not to say this will affect his opportunities positively, but i just love iechoic's mindset.
that mindset lets me profit off of millions of sheep who think the only way to live in this world is to get a 9-5 job they dont give a shit about and live their life outside it.
On October 30 2012 21:47 MotherOfRunes wrote: well i also prefer to do what makes me happy instead of rich. but you need to accept the consequences. people need to realize that esports is far from being accepted in our society. people are blinded by hypes, some public articles and cool events, like in the 2 years of sc2. and you can see where sc2 is heading, nowhere, it already reached its peak long ago. same will go probably go for dota (expect china maybe). and the consquences i mentioned can be really devastating. since the financial and economical situation of the world will only go further down to hell, you maybe wanna realize that the number of poor people will grow and it will be harder to get jobs....and lets say ur 21 now and stop your real life for 3 years of dota, lets even say you become really good and succesful for 4-5 years. then this guy would be 25-26 when he realizes he cant make a living with it anymore. and believe me there is nothing worse when a human resources manager reviews your application and sees a hole for 4-5 years in your timeline. and then you ahve to explain it with computer games? even if its on professional level the most guys reading your application will think your a lazy slacker who just spend his time playing computer games all his life . being in a situation like that, when the job market will be a hard battlefield in the near future, can be really horrible. and something must be wrong with you if the thing that makes you REALLY happy or happy the most, is playing computer games allday, even if its on professional level. normally it indicats sociopaths who have problems in real life (no girlfiends or rarely having girlfriends, being to lazy for school/work or people who just dont liek "real" people around him)
stay in school kids and try to rethink what u really want from life
because the real thing is outthere, and not in this small box
What if strumming a slab of wood affixed with 6 strings is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if dumping coloured chemicals on a canvas is what really makes you happy in this world?
What if running a professional E-sports team is what really makes you happy in this world?
Please tell me you think something is wrong with Nazgul and that he has indications of sociopathy.
At any point in your life you can "settle down". Not many both get the opportunity to do what they've dreamed of doing and then subsequently succeed.
the next one who feels offended as a gamer and also the next one who didnt read my post carefully.
its funny how you compare 3 examples who are more or less totally different form what we are talking here about. for example how the hell can you compare a ololol "pro gamer" (its still funny how you call them "pros" in the dota scene since in terms of practise and discipline none expect the chinses is really "pro") with nazgul who made a REAL business he is running a company bro thats 2 different worlds, his company maybe is doing esports stuff but im sure if you ask nazgul, he will tell you that he didnt do it by sitting 24/7 infront of a pc.
and yeah some just want to do music in life, because it makes em happy. nothing against that aslong as the guy doesnt do it while sitting in his room alone 24/7 365 days a year....the two replies to my post really mady my day. it showed how immature and naiv gamers can be if you write something against hardcore gaming and wasting precious life in your time. totally ignoring all the social risks and dangers....and its easy to say "this is what makes me REALLY happy" because there are many people who are REALLY happy no matter what they do aslong as it isnt work/school. and dont call non-chinese "pros" hard working people in dota
Where did Nazgul start his business career? Pro-gaming and poker, things from your post that would be dismissed as "sitting 24/7 in front[sic] of a pc".
Your argument may have merit because the attrition rate in EU/NA dota scene is high and current salary, recognition, etc. just isn't there yet for a break from school. But your way of making argument had been unconvincing to say the least.
easy to say that when u only pick up the nazgul argument while leaving all the other hard arguments uncommented. and nazgul went from pure gaming to something serious about gaming A REAL COMPANY and thats great still you cant compare it to his life before where the only thing he had worry about was the his play.
and you think about what you said. the arguments of salary, recognition etc goes hand in hand with my other hard arguments about social risks and dangers in world that will become something other then many of us used to know. in a world where economies will continue to fall apart. where depts cant be payed back. whrere the gap between rich and poor grows. in a world that makes getting a solid job/education harder and harder. where a smal mistep in your timeline can mean the world for your life. like forced to work at a job that barely allows you to live from it until you'rr old and grey. you just need to realize what is REALLY going on outthere. only by that you can really meassure the risks that can come with the gaming thing. and i never said here that people should stop chasing their dreams. i just want people to think harder if thats what they really want. think harder about the all the risks. and to not being blinded by their current life so far. blinded by their iPods, fancy computers, all the other gadgets, the warm water coming out of their showers every day and last but not least the food in the fridge. many people here are young and probably only know the live they had living with their parents going to school. or living with room mates near the univerity they go to, paid by their parents or their country. where putting time in the thing you love seems so easy and right
Like I said, come up with more convincing arguments please, and use proper examples.
Pursuing gaming while one is young isn't all bad. It would be particularly hard if someone is taking out a loan for school, is already working a job to support himself through engineering program, etc. etc. But from all the inference, I have to think that my fellow Torontonian is in a much much better position than what I just said. One more factor to consider is the skill level of the person. In this case, I happen to think there is a bright future for him with NTH. Sponsorship and tournament success may be more probable than not in this case.
Thus, on a case-by-case basis on both personal background and ability to succeed, I have to think in this case it is not too bad of an idea. In addition, going through the regime for a summer as a trial run could be good. If this "summer job" doesn't work, he can still go back to school and finish his degree without any delay at all.
My conclusion is there is certainly risk, but it is VERY manageable in OP's case. Therefore, I think some comments are overly harsh in this scenario.
i was speaking general while the op already accomplished the first steps, which makes me happy for him. nothing was really directed towards him alone
Well, the case-by-case nature of such decisions are such that a "in general" statement is not helpful to anyone involved. I hope you can see beyond the financial impact only and think about the entire picture, for example, is the person in question well off without a job, would he/she have a backup option if the pro-gaming route does not work, etc.
Also to consider, would you miss out on a million dollars if there is a magical moment to be had in pursuing the career you're interested in? That is open for all, and I'm sure each have their own response to the question.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
that mindset lets me profit off of millions of sheep who think the only way to live in this world is to get a 9-5 job they dont give a shit about and live their life outside it.
First of all, a lot of engineers love their jobs. Second of all, after you're done with your gaming stint, you'd still end up working a 9-5, but now it'd be a shittier 9-5 and you'll make less money.
I'm jumping on ban wagon. You quit school and you NEVER go back. DON'T QUIT. Trust me, I did the same thing. Thousands have.
You can STILL Do both. Do DOTA2 100%.
Do Uni.
Easy.
You choose no social life and not enough sleep. But you got this easy. Think about that, you can easily do it. Most people cant sac the latter two though. You can get by EASY on 5 hours of sleep a night.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong.
This isn't true.
Sorry to break your dreams, but this is absolutely true. I didn't say "ALL" engineers will, but the majority will.
Glad you went through with it and didn't listen to all the terrible posts.
I know some CAD engineers, and while they occasional make $100 an hour on some projects, they mostly make $30k-$80k a year. The owner of the small company makes close to a million, though, and could pay his workers double and still make more than them.
On November 23 2012 06:31 Firebolt145 wrote: Yo I'm watching you winning against EG at Dreamhack right now.
Nicely done.
Such sick VS play and support play overall, stacking creeps 15 minutes straight where he basically got no XP and was level 4 at that stage of the game.
On November 23 2012 06:31 Firebolt145 wrote: Yo I'm watching you winning against EG at Dreamhack right now.
Nicely done.
Such sick VS play and support play overall, stacking creeps 15 minutes straight where he basically got no XP and was level 4 at that stage of the game.
yeah I had EE on player perspective for most of the game, so many pointers for me to pick up on, the stacking, item choices, ward spots and of course those clutch swaps (and teamfight positioning!)
On November 02 2012 11:59 CursOr wrote: I'm jumping on ban wagon. You quit school and you NEVER go back. DON'T QUIT. Trust me, I did the same thing. Thousands have.
You can STILL Do both. Do DOTA2 100%.
Do Uni.
Easy.
You choose no social life and not enough sleep. But you got this easy. Think about that, you can easily do it. Most people cant sac the latter two though. You can get by EASY on 5 hours of sleep a night.
Do this.
I quit university for one year to live in Holland and went back.
I quit university for two years after I got married, worked, and went back.
If your degree matters enough to you, you'll finish it.
In life there's things like ambiguity, grey-areas, and case-by-case basis'. You don't just tell someone "Yes, you will go to Uni OR YOU WILL FAIL MWUAHAHA" just because that might be the case for YOU in YOUR specific life situation.
Yes, sometimes college is the best option...but for some people (OMG!) it's not.
Crazy, I know.
Life isn't black and white. I wish more people would internalize this.
As someone who's done what you intend to do, I can really say "been there, done that" and give you my 2 cents (by the way, I'm also from Toronto, and I know exactly how U of T sucks the soul out of you, esp. St. George).
When I was making this decision, all the professional sc2 players I asked told me the same thing: you can balance both until very high level of play.
If your aim is to make money off coaching and streaming, I suggest you research and bring your plans into action while you're in University. That way, once you take a break from your education you'll already have a fan base, a handle on coaching, and a much better grasp on what you want to do with your time off. You need to create your flow now.
On October 27 2012 21:31 [Silverflame] wrote: I love all those guys who do understand that living your dream has nothing to do with big income. Give me the chance to play 5 years on proffesional level while my income will decrease by 10% afterwards... I will take it without even hesitating.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong.
Getting an engineering degree at 22 and landing a good job is the start to a very bright career. Getting an engineering degree at 27 disqualifies you from a lot of opportunities. You'll have missed out on 5 years of professional-level income, and you'll be 5 years behind (at best - a 27 year old fresh out of college is a lot less desirable to companies than a 22 year old - and yes, age discrimination exists, and you'll need to explain what the hell you've been doing for the last 10 years).
There are life-changing ramifications to making a decision to drop out of school to play a videogame. A desire to try to go pro at a videogame, in this situation, will most likely cost over a million dollars and an immeasurable amount of happiness over your lifetime. This community's career advice when it comes to this topic is very, very bad (and has been many other times, not just on this thread).
But the problem is you can't quantify happiness and it isn't based on amounts of money beyond basic necessities.
You can't quantify happiness, but after wasting several years of your life on "progaming", it's gonna hit like a truck when you finally realize how much opportunities you've lost while playing video games.
Really, really good post by iEchoic. There's fantasy, and then there's reality.
well when you put it that way, it makes more sense. It's just that what iEchoic described (millions of dollars in opportunity cost and happiness over lifetime) is out of reach to most people who take the standard route of highschool to university and age discrimination is almost non-existent, well at least where i come from.
But isn't it subjective? Maybe for some people, it will hit them like a truck (regret) and maybe some people might feel satisfied about their past being spent in progaming. And when you think about it, alot of people here (the average TL) 'waste' time playing video games so does that mean they have a life full of regret? I feel like these issues are personal, in the sense that these questions are something we ask ourselves and only we know it individually.
If you're putting off an engineering career (what he's doing) then millions of dollars of lost opportunity is correct. Good luck finding a job when there's a 5 year gap on your resume, and are 5 years older than thousands of fresh graduates.
As an actual professional in an engineering field, this is BS. It takes me nearly 10 years to make anywhere near a million dollars, let alone millions, and that's if I never consider taxes.
Second, I have a three year gap in my resume when I went on a world trip and sabbatical. Guess how hard it was to get a new job? It wasn't. I took a pay cut of course (which I've recouped and surpassed now), but I had a job within a month of starting to look, because I'm talented and driven and my explanation of taking time off in my mid-20's to go on a world tour was perfectly acceptable.
Good luck to you Envy, follow your dreams. The real world isn't going anywhere.
You're interpreting "over a lifetime" to mean "five years". Given that 5 years of industry experience is worth at least $25,000 a year in yearly salary (that's a very conservative number), you'll have lost $750,000 over only thirty years. You'll easily lose $250,000 over the five years not playing, so there's your million. If you're a competent engineer, losing 5 years will cost you a million dollars, at least, over your lifetime.
This post isn't intended to make an argument that it's always a bad choice, just to properly scale the ramifications of making a decision like this. If you're okay with being five years behind your peers and losing $1,000,000 and all the opportunities that comes with that, then do it.
(I am a professional engineer as well, for what it's worth - not that you need to be an engineer to do the simple math here)
Most engineers' salaries cap out eventually in the 100-150K range, so your math is wrong. It won't be anywhere near $1 million over a lifetime.
that mindset lets me profit off of millions of sheep who think the only way to live in this world is to get a 9-5 job they dont give a shit about and live their life outside it.
First of all, a lot of engineers love their jobs. Second of all, after you're done with your gaming stint, you'd still end up working a 9-5, but now it'd be a shittier 9-5 and you'll make less money.
That salary cap for engineers is true. If you want to make more, you need to go into the business side of things ( management ) as you move up. The good thing about engineering is that it is well respected pay and is steady with no advanced degree needed, not that you make a massive massive salary.
Hopefully your performance at this event will be the thing that tips your viewer numbers over the edge, your stream is always great. Even your rage is informative.
Why waste time on engineering when you can get a degree in finance and earn way more money? You're wasting your life earning barely 6 figures. Think of all the amount that would accrue over a lifetime.
Screw being happy by knowing that you've actually built something that services the world and makes it better. You could be making MORE MONEY doing something ELSE.
And you don't want fellow TLers to look down on you for your life choices do you?
Why waste time on engineering when you can get a degree in finance and earn way more money? You're wasting your life earning barely 6 figures. Think of all the amount that would accrue over a lifetime.
Screw being happy by knowing that you've actually built something that services the world and makes it better. You could be making MORE MONEY doing something ELSE.
And you don't want fellow TLers to look down on you for your life choices do you?
even though i understand there is some level of sarcasm in this post, i still feel its worth pointing out that on average engineering degrees have more earning power than any other kind of degree.
Huh? I think it's pretty obvious that almost everyone who wants to become a pro player (that is, everyone who is at a very, very high level already and just needs to find a team) wants to compete to win, not just to be on a moderately known team. The chumps are the ones who want to become pro just so they can be in the pro circle and talk to dendi or chuan.
Eternalenvy has been playing at pretty high level for a long time. I don't think he was really fretting about joining a mid tier team. That was only the first step.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
Was immediately impressed with NTH with their win over EG in the ESWC qualifiers, and I'm an even bigger fan now that I know Envy's story/path to where he is now. NTH now my fav team, without a doubt. The Loda+Akke additions give me even more confidence this team's gonna be BIG.
On November 23 2012 19:13 Destro wrote: dude dont do it.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
Yeah, this is very true.
Also, when you say UofT engineering & science is a 'retarded course that destroys your soul'.. You don't realize it yet, but it's actually building your soul..flavour of the week video games are not
If you ask people on a site like teamliquid about whether you should quit life to play video games, the responses are bound to be heavily biased as well. You should think very seriously about how much of this idea is rooted in you being pissed off about school..don't make a knee-jerk decision you're bound to regret
..and if you truly want to be a pro gamer but not sacrifice your education entirely, become a part time student. When I did that, it made me appreciate school a lot more and actually enjoy it (where before I was just as pissed off and disinterested as you are)
On November 23 2012 19:13 Destro wrote: dude dont do it.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
yeah, this is very true.
also, when you say UofT engineering & science is a 'retarded course that destroys your soul'.. you don't realize it yet, but it's actually building your soul..flavour of the week video games are not
if you ask people on a site like teamliquid about whether you should quit life to play video games, the responses are bound to be heavily biased as well. you should think very seriously about how much of this idea is rooted in you being pissed off about school..don't make a knee-jerk decision you're bound to regret
You.. do realize he is already playing on No Tidehunter and doing great at Dreamhack? I understand laziness but it is not very difficult to at least skim the thread before you repeat "go for the safe, moneyed position over dota" for the 100th time when Eternal Envy has already decided to take the plunge into competitive gaming.
On November 23 2012 19:13 Destro wrote: dude dont do it.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
yeah, this is very true.
also, when you say UofT engineering & science is a 'retarded course that destroys your soul'.. you don't realize it yet, but it's actually building your soul..flavour of the week video games are not
if you ask people on a site like teamliquid about whether you should quit life to play video games, the responses are bound to be heavily biased as well. you should think very seriously about how much of this idea is rooted in you being pissed off about school..don't make a knee-jerk decision you're bound to regret
You.. do realize he is already playing on No Tidehunter and doing great at Dreamhack? I understand laziness but it is not very difficult to at least skim the thread before you repeat "go for the safe, moneyed position over dota" for the 100th time when Eternal Envy has already decided to take the plunge into competitive gaming.
To be honest, I mostly wrote my post to organize my own thoughts after reading the OP. I don't follow DOTA or this person, but it was interesting to me that someone who is obviously struggling with a very difficult academic program early in their life was pushed so strongly in the wrong direction by bad advice from video game people on a video game forum.
On November 23 2012 19:13 Destro wrote: dude dont do it.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
yeah, this is very true.
also, when you say UofT engineering & science is a 'retarded course that destroys your soul'.. you don't realize it yet, but it's actually building your soul..flavour of the week video games are not
if you ask people on a site like teamliquid about whether you should quit life to play video games, the responses are bound to be heavily biased as well. you should think very seriously about how much of this idea is rooted in you being pissed off about school..don't make a knee-jerk decision you're bound to regret
You.. do realize he is already playing on No Tidehunter and doing great at Dreamhack? I understand laziness but it is not very difficult to at least skim the thread before you repeat "go for the safe, moneyed position over dota" for the 100th time when Eternal Envy has already decided to take the plunge into competitive gaming.
To be honest, I mostly wrote my post to organize my own thoughts after reading the OP. I don't follow DOTA or this person, but it was interesting to me that someone who is obviously struggling with a very difficult academic program early in their life was pushed so strongly in the wrong direction by bad advice from video game people on a video game forum.
Oh well.
The ironic part about your post is that 1) Most of the people in this thread told him the exact same thing you did, so I'm not sure what bias you are talking about, most of us have real jobs and real careers and play video games on the side, and 2) He followed his dreams and is now on a successful DotA team. Could he be making more money as an engineer? Probably. But if this is what he wants to do, that's fine, and he's making it work.
And for the record I am an engineer, and that was the right choice for me. I wouldn't presume to say that it was the right choice for someone else, knowing nothing about them. I suggest you do the same.
On November 23 2012 19:13 Destro wrote: dude dont do it.
finish your education. pursuit of knowledge > the pursuit of video games.
it might seem like you are putting your education on hold, but you are actually risking it. life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back... you could really fuck over your life over this. anyone that is telling you otherwise is jaded. You can do what you love and do what you need to do at the same time. dont be a fool.
yeah, this is very true.
also, when you say UofT engineering & science is a 'retarded course that destroys your soul'.. you don't realize it yet, but it's actually building your soul..flavour of the week video games are not
if you ask people on a site like teamliquid about whether you should quit life to play video games, the responses are bound to be heavily biased as well. you should think very seriously about how much of this idea is rooted in you being pissed off about school..don't make a knee-jerk decision you're bound to regret
You.. do realize he is already playing on No Tidehunter and doing great at Dreamhack? I understand laziness but it is not very difficult to at least skim the thread before you repeat "go for the safe, moneyed position over dota" for the 100th time when Eternal Envy has already decided to take the plunge into competitive gaming.
To be honest, I mostly wrote my post to organize my own thoughts after reading the OP. I don't follow DOTA or this person, but it was interesting to me that someone who is obviously struggling with a very difficult academic program early in their life was pushed so strongly in the wrong direction by bad advice from video game people on a video game forum.
Oh well.
Where did you get the 'obviously struggling' part?
I still don't get how he's apparently never going to be able to go back to school now. Everything points to this guy being fairly smart. Yeah, he whines about university workload, but who doesn't? To succeed in academics all you need is either 1) be intelligent or 2) be diligent. Once you move past a high school mindset it's honestly not that hard, and from what I've seen the older students are some of the best performers since they've grown and learned to take shit seriously. Did I miss the part where Dota is like heroin and destroys your mind or something?
life is fragile and changes quickly. things could happen and you might not be able to go back...
I mean, are we afraid of this guy becoming a quadriplegic in a tragic teamfighting accident or what?
On November 24 2012 11:13 Redmark wrote: I still don't get how he's apparently never going to be able to go back to school now. Everything points to this guy being fairly smart. Yeah, he whines about university workload, but who doesn't? To succeed in academics all you need is either 1) be intelligent or 2) be diligent. Once you move past a high school mindset it's honestly not that hard, and from what I've seen the older students are some of the best performers since they've grown and learned to take shit seriously. Did I miss the part where Dota is like heroin and destroys your mind or something?
It would be really cool if TL interviewed admiral bulldog after dreamhack, I'm sure it would interess a lot of people to know how "going pro" in dota went.
guy in university >>> ditches uni for progaming >>> shit talk from ultra-conservative TLers >>> 1 shot to make his dreams come true >>> ends up in the grand finals of a major tourney >>> shuts up all the nay-sayers
This would make a great movie or mini drama series.
On November 25 2012 00:30 sharky246 wrote: To sum up Envy's life the over the year:
guy in university >>> ditches uni for progaming >>> shit talk from ultra-conservative TLers >>> 1 shot to make his dreams come true >>> ends up in the grand finals of a major tourney >>> shuts up all the nay-sayers
This would make a great movie or mini drama series.
Yes it would be.
Honestly, this guy played realy nice. Even if he will be only 2nd with his team, they will get a sponsor and they will attend maybe even at TI3.
surreal thread. envy decides to try something new-age and awesome that few people have the opportunity to do, at arguably the best time for him to do so, he's already got himself established on a career and e-sports is a fairly new concept in the west, assuming it continues to thrive you could assume more people/money will get into it and the barrier of entry will gradually increase. say he tries and fails, welp, that was a fun year, back to uni (assuming he's coherent enough to return to the pyramid that's half built instead of starting one from scratch). envy decides to tell a group of people his plans, the group he tells are essentially representatives of the field he's trying to break into. a sizable portion of the group respond negatively to his plan, citing personal reasons and assumptions as to how any more harm could be done than simply losing a potential years worth of schooling.
it's insulting to him to assume he wouldn't under any controllable circumstance continue on the path he was prior, which is the only feasible directly correlated negative outcome to simply taking a year off school. if your life experience/perspective leads you to realllly think it's a bad idea, simply state you wouldn't do that in his situation, or remain indifferent. reflecting oneself onto others is generally detrimental when discussing unmeasurable matters, such as what the future might bring for someone and how they may react to spending a year out of school. as the first party offering the advice "pressures" the second party to take a certain course of action or actions based on what the first party would do or, perhaps worse, what the first party thinks the second party should do. this could put doubt or unrest into the second party's thoughts, and allows the first party to be content with their actions because it was an attempt to "help".
be supportive, there's no reason to dump on an idea or plan within rational reason simply because you disagree with it, pretty backwards/sheltered
envy says "omg dudes im gunna try to be a progamer i think i can do it :d". rightTL says "pro gamers haha wat a dumb idea go back to school omg this one time at bandcamp"
then i reach page 20~ and discover not only he has succeeded, but done so with flying colors. justice
I'm so happy to see the success that Envy is having at this tournament. He's a pretty nice guy and I remember he answered a good deal of my questions on his stream when I was brand new to Dota 2.
Nice one buddie it requires alot of courage to do something like this. I remember in one of the fnatic documentary movies the first manager sold his car and banked everything so VoO can attend at some tournament and look where fnatic is now.
On November 24 2012 11:13 Redmark wrote: I still don't get how he's apparently never going to be able to go back to school now. Everything points to this guy being fairly smart.
I mean, are we afraid of this guy becoming a quadriplegic in a tragic teamfighting accident or what?
1. I think a lot of people in this thread aren't old enough to have seen the surge in adult enrollment the past four years (in the USA). They're parroting what their parents or other older figure in their life have told them.
On November 24 2012 11:13 Redmark wrote: I still don't get how he's apparently never going to be able to go back to school now. Everything points to this guy being fairly smart.
I mean, are we afraid of this guy becoming a quadriplegic in a tragic teamfighting accident or what?
1. I think a lot of people in this thread aren't old enough to have seen the surge in adult enrollment the past four years (in the USA). They're parroting what their parents or other older figure in their life have told them.
2. Hilarious.
Point 1 is exactly what i think of almost everyone these days.
Dear Dreamhack-Winner: Congrats on achieving your first major tournament victory. Your team showed inspiring performances the last few days. Good luck for the future.
Well done man, you obviously deserved it with the hard work you guys put in. Now people can't say dreams never come true ahahah. Congratz on the win at DH
Good Stuff I remember watching envy and a lot of other current dota pros like sneyking, bdiz, waytoo, akke, black and etc play well in HoN, now its nice to seem them do so well in Dota 2.
I honestly didn't think you were going to get anywhere reading this thread a year ago. All I can say is congrats, I think you've earned the respect of a lot of people
December 2011 - some guy says he's gonna take time off uni to play dota 2. Almost a year later - hes on the team that wins dreamhack winter. Personally, I could never see myself leaving uni but shit like this really makes you think what life's all about. For all the people that will inevitably quote this to QQ that it's NBD, it is still a huge accomplishment. This guy is still somewhat of a success story in my eyes.
On November 25 2012 10:52 GreYMisT wrote: Some Gems:
I think people forget that there are 10,000 other people with this exact same idea, what makes you think you are any different?
Good luck though man but you will fail : /
Good luck with it, but I don't plan on watching.
Sure dota2 will be bigger but doesnt change the fact that this game is designed for casual players and valve will not change that
And now?
Hahahaha looking at all the shit he got is amazing
he has his foot in his mouth, honestly I didnt know the guy or how good he was and even if I was skeptical I couldnt find it in me to really say anything at the time, couldnt encourage cuz maybe hes not that good. But he didnt seem like a big enough moron to not know what he was doing.
Even if they didnt win dreamhack I still think he would've been fine with NTH. And his decision vindicated.
He's just one of the highest(the highest?) MMR pub players. A lot of pro's trash pub players and somehow act like you can't start that way and you're just "born pro" or you're not. He had a lot of doubters, but he played great except when he died to Funn1k bat with 5 oil stacks on him. Need to watch that buff counter.
yesssssssss, played such AMAZING support @ DH! Been following you on the NA scene for a while, was supporting you through this "quit school pgg etc", and youre on top already!
On November 25 2012 11:29 SyntechiTV wrote: We have a 14 year old starcraft player that is getting home schooled so he can practice daily and more routinely.
Hopefully that 14 year old gets turned away from any and every team with the reasoning of "Go back to school". Barring the kid being rich, there are a whole lot of downsides to homeschooling that just aren't worth trying to get better at Starcraft. Even Flash wasn't homeschooled.
On November 25 2012 11:29 SyntechiTV wrote: We have a 14 year old starcraft player that is getting home schooled so he can practice daily and more routinely.
Hopefully that 14 year old gets turned away from any and every team with the reasoning of "Go back to school". Barring the kid being rich, there are a whole lot of downsides to homeschooling that just aren't worth trying to get better at Starcraft. Even Flash wasn't homeschooled.
I thought that was a joke or something? Kind of a weird comment anyway, I doubt it's actually true.
Whats the big deal about it, as long as education stays up? All of his friends will be in the community, people at school will look down on him or be maybe be obsessed by him being a pro gamer, wouldn't he be better homeschooling?
Congrats EternalEnvy, you fucking deserve it. NTH hwaiting! Loda has been my favorite player since the blink+BoT+bkb shadow fiend renaissance. Please continue schooling Demon
EternalEnvy - a Cinderella story. I wish him and his team all the best in their Dota career. S4 - MVP of the tournament, Bulldog - always smart item choices, EternalEnvy - brilliant mastermind, and of course our awesome superstars - Loda and Akke.
glad that the teamliquid community is supportive. look at the nadota community, a bunch of circlejerks who are doing nothing but hating. they probably cant believe an unknown player came out of nowhere to lead a team to win dreamhack LOL
Rock on brotha. Let the haters keep on hating, whilst they're all conducting their boring, mundane day to day life (guilty :p). You're out there destroying entities, yolo moding, and living the start of your dream.
On November 25 2012 17:11 BlackGosu wrote: glad that the teamliquid community is supportive. look at the nadota community, a bunch of circlejerks who are doing nothing but hating. they probably cant believe an unknown player came out of nowhere to lead a team to win dreamhack LOL
Ok EE did really well but it'd be pretty dumb to say he led his team to victory when he's working together with a bunch of other veterans, or to say he's unknown when he was pro in hon also. Not sure what your post is trying to accomplish.
he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
On November 25 2012 17:11 BlackGosu wrote: glad that the teamliquid community is supportive. look at the nadota community, a bunch of circlejerks who are doing nothing but hating. they probably cant believe an unknown player came out of nowhere to lead a team to win dreamhack LOL
Ok EE did really well but it'd be pretty dumb to say he led his team to victory when he's working together with a bunch of other veterans, or to say he's unknown when he was pro in hon also. Not sure what your post is trying to accomplish.
He was the leader, and the entire post on that community says he is underrated. And he kinda did come out of nowhere in comparison to EG and empire.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
I think EE carried his team with his drafts and strategies really
Loda played like shit most of the tournament and gets all the credit
Congrats Eternal Envy! Great strategies and great play! The best thing is his mindset- that this is only the beginning! I really hope that the secret sponsor of NTH is Team Liquid...
On November 25 2012 18:00 Grend wrote: I think alot of people missed the fact that he was pretty accomplished at the time he was writing the OP. Cool story though!
Yeah, agreed. For some reason people were playing it off as though he were some bronze scrub trying to reach GM and going pro. I think we'll see a lot more unknown players come to light in dota 2 since it has a better structure to promote some of the small-time players the same way we saw coL get really good. Dota 1 was ran off of experience and how well-known your name was so it was hard for people (especially NA) who weren't well-known to get into the scene.
Congrats, but there's been a history of teams making big splashes right after they form. If you keep it up at this level for a long time then I'll be truly impressed.
On November 25 2012 17:11 BlackGosu wrote: glad that the teamliquid community is supportive. look at the nadota community, a bunch of circlejerks who are doing nothing but hating. they probably cant believe an unknown player came out of nowhere to lead a team to win dreamhack LOL
Ok EE did really well but it'd be pretty dumb to say he led his team to victory when he's working together with a bunch of other veterans, or to say he's unknown when he was pro in hon also. Not sure what your post is trying to accomplish.
IMO Loda was the guy who make most of NTH game so close(To lost)
I remember reading this thread and thinking I wish I had the balls to do something like this when I was younger... EE going on to win dreamhack just makes it even crazier!
Think about all the nerds who will be inspired by this story and quit school/univ for a year to become a progamer. Envy, you have just created a rupture in the time-space continuum.
I've never followed Dota 2 and didn't knew your story before this DH, but man, I have huge respect for your balls and feel really happy for you. This thread shows that it is worthy to follow his dreams. Congratz!
You're never "stuck" with Rogers. If you really have enough money to afford better U/L you can afford the cancellation fee of $80 if it means first 3 months free with a new ISP.
On December 10th 2011, Jacky "EternalEnvy" Mao, a university student in an accelerated Engineering Science class at the Univeristy of Toronto asked fellow TL-ers if dropping out of college to indulge himself in professional DotA2 would be a good idea. He cited his successful past experiences in HoN and DotA, and he expressed his distaste for his studies.
Of course, there were the supporter-nice guys who are firm believers of "following one's dream" and "pursuing happiness".
Then there were the reasonable people who advised Jacky to contemplate his decisions and that college would likely be the more sound idea.
And then, of course, there were the naysayers who absolutely ridiculed his decision for choosing to throw away a good education in exchange for a minuscule chance of success.
And on the Internet, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that conflicting raging forces on the internet will inevitably collide, leading to lengthy arguments. Therefore, false facts and "yolo"-erisms were thrown at each other, but what stood out the most was an intense argument between old DotA pro LevenT and former DotA EG player Bulba. The argument for the most part was ugly and informal, with both sides clearly angry and infuriated at each other. It wasn't until DotA EG player Maelk had to intervene and remedy both sides, that the argument finally ended.
Afterward, the thread pretty much died off and remained dormant until a sudden revival in October of 2012. These posts questioned whether EternalEnvy became successful or not. Then, by coincidence, it was revealed that EternalEnvy formed a team called, "No Tidehunter". People became even more ecstatic when No Tidehunter acquired DotA legend Loda and went on to post extraordinary results in the ESWC qualifiers.
The story then began to take a turn towards the fulfillment of a "Dreams Do Come True" movie when No Tidehunter went on to win Dreamhack Winter against EG (which is kinda coincidental since EG Maelk defended Envy's choice).
What's next for EternalEnvy and No Tidehunter? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, they wouldn't be here if a Canadian college drop out was not supported by a community.
EternalEnvy I don't even follow DotA2 and only stumbled upon this thread by accident, but after reading about your story I am truly inspired by your success.
Didn't watch the games, but I like to think my "GL, HF" counted on page 3.
I'd also like to make this next little bit of advice. You are a pro-gamer. This is not an easy situation, but you clearly knew that, because winning is all that matters, and you aren't the only one who wants to win. Everyone wants to win.
So with that truth out there, the next bit of advice: It isn't just what you earn. It's also what you save. If you're winning 40k a year and saving 30k of it, you come out more ahead after 3 years than someone who wins 600k annually but blows it on anything and everything. Hell, go pro 5 years, have all that money saved leads to a lot of other opportunities in the future too.
Congrats, nTh is definitely my new favorite team (has been since you announced the new line-up). So glad you won, cant wait to see what you can accomplish in the future!
Firstly grats on the win, well deserved and well played.
I look at the pro gaming vs profession thing this way. When you hit your 30s many other things start to take priority. life just happens that way, whether it's cause you notice your eyes can't put up with long hours of gaming anymore or your reflexes aren't the reflexes of a younger player anymore. you are at your peak gaming performance days in your teens to all of your 20's.
So while you still can, do the competitive gaming thing. Cause even if you want to when you are older, it will be difficult.
So I figure you can go back into schooling when you hit your late 20's and finish by 30. Just promise your parents you'll get a degree no matter what and make your goals clear so they don't worry.
For now, answer the call of your competitive spirit and fight fight fight! see just how far you go, who knows , anything is possible, your team showed us by standing at the end of Dreamhack Winter 2012 victorious.
On December 10th 2011, Jacky "EternalEnvy" Mao, a university student in an accelerated Engineering Science class at the Univeristy of Toronto asked fellow TL-ers if dropping out of college to indulge himself in professional DotA2 would be a good idea. He cited his successful past experiences in HoN and DotA, and he expressed his distaste for his studies.
Of course, there were the supporter-nice guys who are firm believers of "following one's dream" and "pursuing happiness".
Then there were the reasonable people who advised Jacky to contemplate his decisions and that college would likely be the more sound idea.
And then, of course, there were the naysayers who absolutely ridiculed his decision for choosing to throw away a good education in exchange for a minuscule chance of success.
And on the Internet, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that conflicting raging forces on the internet will inevitably collide, leading to lengthy arguments. Therefore, false facts and "yolo"-erisms were thrown at each other, but what stood out the most was an intense argument between old DotA pro LevenT and former DotA EG player Bulba. The argument for the most part was ugly and informal, with both sides clearly angry and infuriated at each other. It wasn't until DotA EG player Maelk had to intervene and remedy both sides, that the argument finally ended.
Afterward, the thread pretty much died off and remained dormant until a sudden revival in October of 2012. These posts questioned whether EternalEnvy became successful or not. Then, by coincidence, it was revealed that EternalEnvy formed a team called, "No Tidehunter". People became even more ecstatic when No Tidehunter acquired DotA legend Loda and went on to post extraordinary results in the ESWC qualifiers.
The story then began to take a turn towards the fulfillment of a "Dreams Do Come True" movie when No Tidehunter went on to win Dreamhack Winter against EG (which is kinda coincidental since EG Maelk defended Envy's choice).
What's next for EternalEnvy and No Tidehunter? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, they wouldn't be here if a Canadian college drop out was not supported by a community.
not that if really matters that much, but im quite sure that nth qualified for ESWC with black and kizzles, before akke and loda joined.
WHAT. I remember reading this thread a long time ago, but I never realized this was EternalEnvy. Wow, great job, man! Congrats and keep it up! You guys did amazing
On November 25 2012 20:11 TheRealFluid wrote: Summary of this thread:
On December 10th 2011, Jacky "EternalEnvy" Mao, a university student in an accelerated Engineering Science class at the Univeristy of Toronto asked fellow TL-ers if dropping out of college to indulge himself in professional DotA2 would be a good idea. He cited his successful past experiences in HoN and DotA, and he expressed his distaste for his studies.
Of course, there were the supporter-nice guys who are firm believers of "following one's dream" and "pursuing happiness".
Then there were the reasonable people who advised Jacky to contemplate his decisions and that college would likely be the more sound idea.
And then, of course, there were the naysayers who absolutely ridiculed his decision for choosing to throw away a good education in exchange for a minuscule chance of success.
And on the Internet, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that conflicting raging forces on the internet will inevitably collide, leading to lengthy arguments. Therefore, false facts and "yolo"-erisms were thrown at each other, but what stood out the most was an intense argument between old DotA pro LevenT and former DotA EG player Bulba. The argument for the most part was ugly and informal, with both sides clearly angry and infuriated at each other. It wasn't until DotA EG player Maelk had to intervene and remedy both sides, that the argument finally ended.
Afterward, the thread pretty much died off and remained dormant until a sudden revival in October of 2012. These posts questioned whether EternalEnvy became successful or not. Then, by coincidence, it was revealed that EternalEnvy formed a team called, "No Tidehunter". People became even more ecstatic when No Tidehunter acquired DotA legend Loda and went on to post extraordinary results in the ESWC qualifiers.
The story then began to take a turn towards the fulfillment of a "Dreams Do Come True" movie when No Tidehunter went on to win Dreamhack Winter against EG (which is kinda coincidental since EG Maelk defended Envy's choice).
What's next for EternalEnvy and No Tidehunter? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, they wouldn't be here if a Canadian college drop out was not supported by a community.
Yo dude thanks for this, Ii had seen this thread while it was dormant but didnt understand why it was back because i dont follow dota, just watch occasionslly. I love th youtube vid in the OP though
On November 25 2012 20:11 TheRealFluid wrote: Summary of this thread:
On December 10th 2011, Jacky "EternalEnvy" Mao, a university student in an accelerated Engineering Science class at the Univeristy of Toronto asked fellow TL-ers if dropping out of college to indulge himself in professional DotA2 would be a good idea. He cited his successful past experiences in HoN and DotA, and he expressed his distaste for his studies.
Of course, there were the supporter-nice guys who are firm believers of "following one's dream" and "pursuing happiness".
Then there were the reasonable people who advised Jacky to contemplate his decisions and that college would likely be the more sound idea.
And then, of course, there were the naysayers who absolutely ridiculed his decision for choosing to throw away a good education in exchange for a minuscule chance of success.
And on the Internet, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that conflicting raging forces on the internet will inevitably collide, leading to lengthy arguments. Therefore, false facts and "yolo"-erisms were thrown at each other, but what stood out the most was an intense argument between old DotA pro LevenT and former DotA EG player Bulba. The argument for the most part was ugly and informal, with both sides clearly angry and infuriated at each other. It wasn't until DotA EG player Maelk had to intervene and remedy both sides, that the argument finally ended.
Afterward, the thread pretty much died off and remained dormant until a sudden revival in October of 2012. These posts questioned whether EternalEnvy became successful or not. Then, by coincidence, it was revealed that EternalEnvy formed a team called, "No Tidehunter". People became even more ecstatic when No Tidehunter acquired DotA legend Loda and went on to post extraordinary results in the ESWC qualifiers.
The story then began to take a turn towards the fulfillment of a "Dreams Do Come True" movie when No Tidehunter went on to win Dreamhack Winter against EG (which is kinda coincidental since EG Maelk defended Envy's choice).
What's next for EternalEnvy and No Tidehunter? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, they wouldn't be here if a Canadian college drop out was not supported by a community.
Yo dude thanks for this, Ii had seen this thread while it was dormant but didnt understand why it was back because i dont follow dota, just watch occasionslly. I love th youtube vid in the OP though
Just to toot my own horn, i posted in the first instance of the thread, AND necroed it in october as mentioned.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda. + Show Spoiler +
Zenith won 35k USD, Na´vi took home 250k USD
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda.
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
I think 5-s meant in the literal sense of results, as in Loda took home more money.
On October 24 2012 12:34 Ack1027 wrote: Oh god this thread.
He was stuck in the same old na inhouses grind like everyone else for a while and just recently teamed up for nTh. Wore some other tags but didn't go far with that.
His plan you can see is still laughable. Streaming 10-13 hours a day, coaching, and winning money from tournaments to have money. Or continue at UofT. This was in December 2011 loooooool. Nowhere near the teammates until recently and skill is arguable.
I don't hate the guy or anything just wanted to say the OP post was ridiculous as it is now and its been a year.
OP just won dreamhack with his new team that includes some very good players, just about a year on from this post
The amount of flak people get for trying to enjoy themselves is absolutely ridiculous.
Really happy for EternalEnvy as there are a lot of other people who don't have the guts to take an opportunity like this (me) and other that fail at the attempt. The future would indeed suck if one simply gave up on what they wanted to do because he was not conforming to society or making the big money $_$.
All I want to say is that people should at least try and fail instead of never trying at all.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda.
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
I think 5-s meant in the literal sense of results, as in Loda took home more money.
Na'vi got second in TI2 so i guess Loda did worse, even in Money.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda.
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
I think 5-s meant in the literal sense of results, as in Loda took home more money.
Na'vi got second in TI2 so i guess Loda did worse, even in Money.
Yeah, I thought 5-s was referring to DHW not TI2.
Anyways, EE was well-known in HoN but he has changed roles dramatically between the games and taken more of a leadership role than he had in HoN. The speed at which he adapted was rather impressive.
Admiral Bulldog and S4's play were also highly commendable for how rapidly they adapted. Unless S4 was well known?
WOW, so the OP quit school to play some Dota2, got a good team and now he won Dreamhack with them? (Sorry didn't follow the thread and I've only read the OP +some pages) I'm really happy for you OP!! Great job man! Hope this won't stop at Dreamhack for you and your team. Go go you can do this!!
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda. + Show Spoiler +
Zenith won 35k USD, Na´vi took home 250k USD
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
I think 5-s means that CIS is often seen as a seperate region, thus Europeans and Americans are not Na'vi.
Not sure about this but I think this is what he means.
On November 25 2012 17:22 BlackGosu wrote: he is the captain, drafts for the team, and calls the shots. about those veterans, as great as they are, when was the last time they won a big LAN tournament? of course credit to loda, akke, s4, and admiralbulldog. the whole nth team functioned as a single unit.
ok he was known in hon, what relevance does that have to do with being known in dota? aside from na, he wasn't well known internationally until dreamhack. his stream isn't even featured, although it should be, he has earned it.
Loda faired the the best out of all Europeans and Americans in TI2: he didn't go home empty handed like everyone else. Anyhow, he's been around for a while, everyone from NA knew him from before, which was my point.
Are we going to ignore the fact that estonia and ukraine are parts of europe? Because i'd like to think that puppey, dendi and XBOCT did better than loda. + Show Spoiler +
Zenith won 35k USD, Na´vi took home 250k USD
Also, was very happy to see you win dreamhack, i hope to see you guys do well at TI3.
I think 5-s means that CIS is often seen as a seperate region, thus Europeans and Americans are not Na'vi.
Not sure about this but I think this is what he means.
Doesn't matter really, Ukraine and Estonia are parts of europe and Estonia is even a part of the EU. They are factually europeans. Not to mention that neither Ukraine nor Estonia are a part of CIS. And Ukraine generally doesn't classify itself as a CIS country, seeing that it disagrees with Russia being the only legal successor of the Soviet Union.
Edit: This is the wrong thread for that though, but yea, they are europeans.
On November 25 2012 20:11 TheRealFluid wrote: Summary of this thread:
On December 10th 2011, Jacky "EternalEnvy" Mao, a university student in an accelerated Engineering Science class at the Univeristy of Toronto asked fellow TL-ers if dropping out of college to indulge himself in professional DotA2 would be a good idea. He cited his successful past experiences in HoN and DotA, and he expressed his distaste for his studies.
Of course, there were the supporter-nice guys who are firm believers of "following one's dream" and "pursuing happiness".
Then there were the reasonable people who advised Jacky to contemplate his decisions and that college would likely be the more sound idea.
And then, of course, there were the naysayers who absolutely ridiculed his decision for choosing to throw away a good education in exchange for a minuscule chance of success.
And on the Internet, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that conflicting raging forces on the internet will inevitably collide, leading to lengthy arguments. Therefore, false facts and "yolo"-erisms were thrown at each other, but what stood out the most was an intense argument between old DotA pro LevenT and former DotA EG player Bulba. The argument for the most part was ugly and informal, with both sides clearly angry and infuriated at each other. It wasn't until DotA EG player Maelk had to intervene and remedy both sides, that the argument finally ended.
Afterward, the thread pretty much died off and remained dormant until a sudden revival in October of 2012. These posts questioned whether EternalEnvy became successful or not. Then, by coincidence, it was revealed that EternalEnvy formed a team called, "No Tidehunter". People became even more ecstatic when No Tidehunter acquired DotA legend Loda and went on to post extraordinary results in the ESWC qualifiers.
The story then began to take a turn towards the fulfillment of a "Dreams Do Come True" movie when No Tidehunter went on to win Dreamhack Winter against EG (which is kinda coincidental since EG Maelk defended Envy's choice).
What's next for EternalEnvy and No Tidehunter? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, they wouldn't be here if a Canadian college drop out was not supported by a community.
That is so cool. Thanks for summing this up. Will definitely follow this guy any chance I can get.
I was in fact keeping CIS separate, we're not arguing geography, but dota conventions here, which is used by most of the major dota coverage sites and casters. Obviously Russia and Ukraine are European, but from a Dota community stand-point they stand separate from Europe.
On November 27 2012 00:35 TheWarbler wrote: EE improved a lot and played great and lead his team well. Butttt winning 1 tounrment does not mean his going leave has been worth it.
Who are you to judge that? You don't know what his experience this past year has been like. Bottom line is, if he enjoyed all of this a 100%, it's worth it.
To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
On November 27 2012 01:53 starchosengirl wrote: To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
On November 27 2012 01:53 starchosengirl wrote: To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
Read the last few pages.
rofl don't think he has any idea that EE is the captain of notidehunter
On October 24 2012 12:34 Ack1027 wrote: Oh god this thread.
He was stuck in the same old na inhouses grind like everyone else for a while and just recently teamed up for nTh. Wore some other tags but didn't go far with that.
His plan you can see is still laughable. Streaming 10-13 hours a day, coaching, and winning money from tournaments to have money. Or continue at UofT. This was in December 2011 loooooool. Nowhere near the teammates until recently and skill is arguable.
I don't hate the guy or anything just wanted to say the OP post was ridiculous as it is now and its been a year.
Reading some of the posts on this thread after nTh won Dreamhack is absolutely delicious.
I'll quote Mr. Ack here because he seems to really know his professional doto...
On November 27 2012 00:35 TheWarbler wrote: EE improved a lot and played great and lead his team well. Butttt winning 1 tounrment does not mean his going leave has been worth it.
He dropped college to purseu a progaming career, in less than a year he founded NTH, managed to recruit two dota stars and won their first lan (dreamhack) in convincing fashion against empire and EG.
Worth it so far (money wise)? Probably not, but he is doing exceptionally well and far, far beyond most TL'ers initial expectations.
Vindication, baby. Glad that I was right in believing that you could do it based on your HoN prowess. This is one big fuck you to the nay-sayers. NTH for the win. Also great to see S4 doing so well, kinda missed him after he was dropped from Lions in HoN, his pebbles (tiny) was a total boss.
I don't understand when people are reaaaally shitting their own pants and act like the fucking world is about to go under when someone else wants to put their studies on hold for a X amount of time to pursue something else for the time being. Let it be acting, music, fashion and design, a sport, competitive gaming, just taking a break from school in general and don't do anything or whatever. Just relax man wtf, nothing bad happens if you don't get out of school in the quickest possible way ok?
You can always fall back to study again later when you feel ready, school won't go anywhere.
EDIT: it's also hilarious reading people in this thread that doesn't have a clue about recent events regarding EE and NTH. ^^
I saw this thread and didn't think much of it--most threads about "going pro" in the history of TL have been pretty dumb and fruitless. I'm really happy to see this one didn't go the same way. Congrats EE! Best of luck as time goes on.
On November 27 2012 01:53 starchosengirl wrote: To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
On November 27 2012 01:53 starchosengirl wrote: To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
On November 27 2012 00:35 TheWarbler wrote: EE improved a lot and played great and lead his team well. Butttt winning 1 tounrment does not mean his going leave has been worth it.
He dropped college to purseu a progaming career, in less than a year he founded NTH, managed to recruit two dota stars and won their first lan (dreamhack) in convincing fashion against empire and EG.
Worth it so far (money wise)? Probably not, but he is doing exceptionally well and far, far beyond most TL'ers initial expectations.
This is right - financially he'll never make up for the missed year of wages / schooling (assuming he could do well enough to land a job after his engineering degree), unless he does very well at the next TI, but at least he's doing something he enjoys and able to support himself somewhat.
People do realize that plenty take a year off before / early college? It's really not the end of the world especially when your plan has some potential of giving you something back.
And now that he's won DH he could stream again and with the gained notoriety probably make enough to get by. (not to mention sponsors)
I stopped following this thread soon after its creation. It's amazing how it ended up turning out. It made me really happy reading all the comments from bad to good after the DH win. Thank you to the believers who gave me support :D, and those that gave good input.
I will post my current thoughts on the path I am pursuing with a look into the numbers and the feelings involved, the experience I've had, what really happened, etc.
On November 29 2012 16:44 EternaLEnVy wrote: I stopped following this thread soon after its creation. It's amazing how it ended up turning out. It made me really happy reading all the comments from bad to good after the DH win. Thank you to the believers who gave me support :D, and those that gave good input.
I will post my current thoughts on the path I am pursuing with a look into the numbers and the feelings involved, the experience I've had, what really happened, etc.
I should probably make it a thread huh.
Grats on the win! Nice to see you have found initial success! Here's to more in the future!
On November 29 2012 16:44 EternaLEnVy wrote: I stopped following this thread soon after its creation. It's amazing how it ended up turning out. It made me really happy reading all the comments from bad to good after the DH win. Thank you to the believers who gave me support :D, and those that gave good input.
I will post my current thoughts on the path I am pursuing with a look into the numbers and the feelings involved, the experience I've had, what really happened, etc.
I should probably make it a thread huh.
Hey, where are those 10-11 hours of daily streaming you promised us? =P
I read this thread about a week ago, before DH and was not surprised by the initial responses. The story was very similar to a situation i found myself in.
When at uni, a friend of mine decided with only 1 year to go, to take a break and try to play darts professionally (in the UK its pretty big here!). He was always a good player, but i thought at the time he was stupid to do so! I tried profusely to continue with uni, finish it off and try and do the darts things after he had graduated. However, he wouldnt listen, i told him he was stupid not to finish his education. He proved me wrong when in 2008 he won the world championship and i was forced to admit how wrong i was. Which i did so with a smile on my face over a pint.
It shows that with enough dedication and hard work, you can achieve your dreams! And at the end of the day, its what matters in life, that you are doing what makes you happy and makes you get out of bed!
ps, I enjoyed watching your stream for a bit last night, made me want to play a quick game!
I'll be honest; after initially reading this thread, I really thought you sounded like quite the arrogant dickhead. However, after seeing your success as far as team-joining and your recent performances, I can only say congrats.
You definitely turned my view of you around; you have been playing beautifully and I completely respect anyone willing to postpone a safe, successful career for the potential to achieve a dream like yours.
Seriously man, I think you should just focus on school, finish it and then go pro in DOTA 2. If you start playing DOTA 2 now and put your studies on hold, you won't have the same focus and drive when you come back to finish school. You will probably fail horrendously when you come back. Don't make that mistake. I know school fucking sucks, just suck it up and finish it. It is not worth the trouble and time to do what you plan to do.
Regardless of the outcome though, I truly believe that this was a stupid move on your part. I also was studying Engineering, and had to drop out due to financial problems a year and a half ago. I have been trying to go back, and have been unable to, which has been incredibly frustrating, and I am actually no closer to going back than I was a year ago. The economy is absolute shit right now.
Yes, I'm sure you worked really hard to pull a team together and get the win, but you also had to have a lot of luck along the way. You were definitely walking a fine line where any number of small things could have screwed you over (many of which would have not been in your control). And you definitely had a lot of help from other people along the way. Remember to thank them. Because, in the real world, hard work is not enough. A lot of people work hard, yet very few become successful.
On November 30 2012 13:08 Franthier wrote: Seriously man, I think you should just focus on school, finish it and then go pro in DOTA 2. If you start playing DOTA 2 now and put your studies on hold, you won't have the same focus and drive when you come back to finish school. You will probably fail horrendously when you come back. Don't make that mistake. I know school fucking sucks, just suck it up and finish it. It is not worth the trouble and time to do what you plan to do.
On November 30 2012 13:08 Franthier wrote: Seriously man, I think you should just focus on school, finish it and then go pro in DOTA 2. If you start playing DOTA 2 now and put your studies on hold, you won't have the same focus and drive when you come back to finish school. You will probably fail horrendously when you come back. Don't make that mistake. I know school fucking sucks, just suck it up and finish it. It is not worth the trouble and time to do what you plan to do.
Thread is from a year ago, he just won Dreamhack,which is what was with the bump. I don't think he is too worried about his studies at the moment after that success. You should read the thread : D
On November 27 2012 01:53 starchosengirl wrote: To be completely frank this is a terrible idea. It almost sounds like you're brainwashed into thinking that playing professional level dota 2 will make you rich or as successful as the recent no tidehunters .... (yea, don't you need a team ?)
If you REALLY want to do this, I recommend learning an instrument, taking up writing or spending a few weeks alone camping.. to .. you know, think about things. this is a really, really bad idea.
Not sure if people read where he said that he is able to go back to school if his plan to become a pro gamer fails.. and 1-2 years isn't much, i have no idea where people are bringing up the "5 years of lost income" from... =/
Great job, EternalEnVy! You've done well and you've definitely proved many people wrong with your recent success! All the best for future tournaments and hope to find out who your new sponsor is soon. Can't wait to hear the news!
PS. Have fun in the new team house that I heard you're moving into in the near future!
If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I agree with this. In exchange for those two or three years of "lost income" (how do you lose something you never had in the first place?) he receives a feeling of satisfaction and fulfillment at having put forth an honest effort to play professional DotA. He's gonna have 40-50 years of work in the field of engineering and will make more than enough money to live comfortably and support a family.
Hindsight is 20/20, but EE had high chances to make it as a pro due to his DotA1/HoN background. It seems that people mistook him for an average "bronze league" pubber when in fact he was already playing and scrimming with good players for years. Still, guaranteed success is never 100% in any endeavor, so hats off to you EE!
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
Might be dangerous even replying to this, but I'm hardly jealous of Envy. I've played at a competitive level, have won some money before (no, not as much as EE, but there weren't many big tournaments when I played). Streaming probably could've made me more if I kept up with it. But at this point, I'm good friends with a good number of the pro players including players on Liquid and LGD.int, and I often give them general advice about random things. If one of my friends like bulba said he wanted to drop out to play fulltime, I'd give him the same exact advice: finish up your degree since Dota isn't forever. I don't know EE well, but I do know the dota scene and I was also in an engineering program, so I know that it's far more profitable to finish up your engineering degree in 99% of circumstances. That said, I want the scene to prosper more than anything, so hopefully NTH does find further success.
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
Might be dangerous even replying to this, but I'm hardly jealous of Envy. I've played at a competitive level, have won some money before (no, not as much as EE, but there weren't many big tournaments when I played). Streaming probably could've made me more if I kept up with it. But at this point, I'm good friends with a good number of the pro players including players on Liquid and LGD.int, and I often give them general advice about random things. If one of my friends like bulba said he wanted to drop out to play fulltime, I'd give him the same exact advice: finish up your degree since Dota isn't forever. I don't know EE well, but I do know the dota scene and I was also in an engineering program, so I know that it's far more profitable to finish up your engineering degree in 99% of circumstances. That said, I want the scene to prosper more than anything, so hopefully NTH does find further success.
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
Might be dangerous even replying to this, but I'm hardly jealous of Envy. I've played at a competitive level, have won some money before (no, not as much as EE, but there weren't many big tournaments when I played). Streaming probably could've made me more if I kept up with it. But at this point, I'm good friends with a good number of the pro players including players on Liquid and LGD.int, and I often give them general advice about random things. If one of my friends like bulba said he wanted to drop out to play fulltime, I'd give him the same exact advice: finish up your degree since Dota isn't forever. I don't know EE well, but I do know the dota scene and I was also in an engineering program, so I know that it's far more profitable to finish up your engineering degree in 99% of circumstances. That said, I want the scene to prosper more than anything, so hopefully NTH does find further success.
5 "Real DotA Nigga" -s
Also parents are usually decent people, don't hate on them.
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
Might be dangerous even replying to this, but I'm hardly jealous of Envy. I've played at a competitive level, have won some money before (no, not as much as EE, but there weren't many big tournaments when I played). Streaming probably could've made me more if I kept up with it. But at this point, I'm good friends with a good number of the pro players including players on Liquid and LGD.int, and I often give them general advice about random things. If one of my friends like bulba said he wanted to drop out to play fulltime, I'd give him the same exact advice: finish up your degree since Dota isn't forever. I don't know EE well, but I do know the dota scene and I was also in an engineering program, so I know that it's far more profitable to finish up your engineering degree in 99% of circumstances. That said, I want the scene to prosper more than anything, so hopefully NTH does find further success.
5 "Real DotA Nigga" -s
Also parents are usually decent people, don't hate on them.
On January 04 2013 05:00 Avs wrote: People are saying NTH lost today because you didn't call the shots.
NTH vs Turtle I assume? If so, I guess yeah, the draft was too cookie cutter and not really good against turtle's aggressive line up. S4 played really really well but it felt like the team was heavily depending on batrider. The Rubik was pretty transparent through out the game.
I always go back to read this thread, when I want a good chuckle and a poetic tear in the corner of my eye.
People meant well, but it is still kind of ironic on a huge gaming site with so many wonderful dreamers with exceptional autodidact skill sets, nonetheless.
On December 10 2012 14:04 INTENZ-_- wrote: If you have a dream; you should pursue it, right? This argument about lost income and education is something I don't get unless you are very elitist and think only about your professional career as something die hard where there is no room for any failure at all. It is not like he is throwing away his entire professional life doing this albeit he might lose two-three years of his career.
I think the people who argue this is either gonna be envy's parents or some mad jelly nerds (like 5-s) or the entire NADotA forum.
Might be dangerous even replying to this, but I'm hardly jealous of Envy. I've played at a competitive level, have won some money before (no, not as much as EE, but there weren't many big tournaments when I played). Streaming probably could've made me more if I kept up with it. But at this point, I'm good friends with a good number of the pro players including players on Liquid and LGD.int, and I often give them general advice about random things. If one of my friends like bulba said he wanted to drop out to play fulltime, I'd give him the same exact advice: finish up your degree since Dota isn't forever. I don't know EE well, but I do know the dota scene and I was also in an engineering program, so I know that it's far more profitable to finish up your engineering degree in 99% of circumstances. That said, I want the scene to prosper more than anything, so hopefully NTH does find further success.
EPT
. 
I'll be looking out for your stream once you get it going 
I'm decent at least understand the game though still getting used to how DotAs so much more push oriented than HoN. 
