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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
If you're basing your beliefs on Valve being the magic number here, think again. Look at CS:S, they had every intention to make it an esport, it was hyped to succeed CS1.6, but did it? that bubble burst and the scene was left in ruins Edit: like you said, you need to mix yourself with the right people to get noticed in DotA. In SC2 you dominate with your own skill and you will get noticed. See the difference? one you rely on others, the other you rely purely on your own merits. | ||
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BuLba
United States1585 Posts
what did brood war have? at the time of sc2's release, what did the starcraft community have? ive listened to enough SoTG's and watched enough brood war to realize that the broodwar scene was essentially null outside korea. u had the occasional TSL but that was it. now look at it. But im sure there was that judicator and levent who was like "HEY U HAVE SHOWN NO PROOF THAT STARCRAFT WILL BE BIG. NO PROOF THAT IT HAS A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS STRUCTURE" on the broodwar subsection." then you have those guys saying "hey korea had such a private scene, even if starcraft had a good infrastructure there, who says it can translate outside? who says that those players like nada/july/boxer would EVER come to america" thats such retarded logic. thats exactly what levent said in response to China's scene. but of course there was that guy who believed in starcraft but was scared of the obvious logic bullies on the forums similiar to me who stated that "look at the starcraft beta, its growing! it can be big outside" but then you have those judicators who say "no, still no proof yet" look back, who was right and who was wrong? ya its hard to compare both but im just using that as an example. Imagine a scene where chinese sponsors send their teams to dreamhack/eswc/MLG for dota 2. You can always play the devils advocate but that side of the argument will always be used. its the fact that Levent was being totally ignorant in his remarks (maybe his lack of english skills?? english not being his first language?) but said that dota has no future and that there is no potential. im arguing that regardless of what happens, its so ignorant to say that there will be no future and that the dota scene will continue to "fail' like it has done in the past Edit: to ^, what im trying to say is that even if it is based on merit, the ease of finding success in dota is easier than finding the success in sc2. being successful in sc2 at the top is a huge increase from being successful at the bottom. ya the top of sc2 enjoy more glory than dota but the bottom-of the-success-players barely enjoy anything because sponsors provide most of their money to the top. the bottom just enjoy more practice partners and the occasional lan stipend here (i know because my other dota friend was sponsored by x6 (x6.shinya)) and the occasional free gear such as a mouse or headset. on the other hand, you have teams like fnatic enjoying a salary (yes a salary), all the gear from steelseries and lan stipends that are in the thousands. Their feat? beating navi in the groupstages of ESWC. They are professionally sponsored players . "dominate with your skill" you make it sound easy to have the skill to dominate a tournament as a new player to the scene. clearly it isnt. every tournament with hundreds of players and entries to qualifiers/open bracket, you have only 1 or 2 players showing any wins let alone domination. At this point, sc2 teams qualify getting top 35 of a MLG as very successful for their lower end players. they realize that those players have such a small chance of even making it past the open bracket to the championship bracket. i DONT want to play a game where me being successful is getting top 35 of a tournament. that just shows the difficulty of the game. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
success is such a hard term to define. there are levels. in sc2 the gap between levels of success is huge. in dota not so much. in any tournament in any idea, a team can surprise us and do well. but usually the teams doing well are the ones who practice/who have good individual skill and who have good synergy. Most of the top players usually play with themselves anyways. everytime pgg remakes a team, you know whos going to be on it. those same russians. everytime m5 remakes a team, they contain those same players. ya the scene has to maintain stable teams but proving yourself in dota is a lot easier. even playing with the top is easier. I know my teammate Universe, who was a relatively unknown player. However, i used to be friends with him before and asked him to play with me demon and fear when we played in asian leagues on RGC. his skill was recognized and he got a chance to go all the way to the international. Powernet, a player that came out of the scene recently developed a huge fanbase after his performance in MYM prime nations. its easier to mix yourself with the top in dota than it is in sc2. easier to get yourself noticed. Dota casts like joindota and front page gosugamers casts of random dota tournaments maintain 500-1.5k viewers. these are for even small tournaments. compare that to some weekly stream viewer count for a weekly sc2 tournament. the numbers are significantly lower for the latter. what im trying to say is that its way harder to get to the top in sc2 than get noticed than in dota. I don't wanna get sucked into your whole argument with LevenT and Judicator, just wanna ask something regarding this ^ Factors like that are temporary. If you're optimistic about Dota's future (which is reasonably assumed if you want to make a career out of Dota 2), wouldn't it eventually get developed to that point as well? (where newer teams struggle to compete against the best of the best / most popular etc.) Factors such as judicator has pointed out, SC2 is more reliable since it's based on one person's effort while Dota is reliant on teammates which you probably won't have too much control over are persistent. So basically, are your reasons purely for the advantage of taking up Dota over SC2 right now? | ||
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
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BuLba
United States1585 Posts
his quote "But look what i achieved in my "dota career", i won 4 times dreamhack, around 8 lan events and countless online tours(esl majors). Every team i played in was a top team and regarded as the dominant team in their respective era. The same shit i did in hon, but it was much shorter like 1 and 1/2 year compared to 4/5 years of dota. And u know what i got????...... NOTHING....literally.They promised me alot of money and all this kind of shit, but after all nothing happened." so his argument was just that. because of his previous dealings with dota, he didnt want to pursue a game where he felt that there would be no reward which is retarded to make at a time especially like now with all these tourneys popping up and actually containing legitimate sponsors (own3d/benq/valve/twitch) then judicators point is about sc2's merit is brought up. i just responded saying that the idea of success in both games is different. sc2's success is already built on a infrastructure that has developed for the past 2 years since beta. its had time to grow and now it has a stable top level with the same players doing well. dota 2 at the moment is new. sponsors are realizing that a positive future is imminent. Case in point:EG, fnatic, mouz all sponsoring teams and providing gear/travel costs and accomodations. look at starcraft two years ago, who would have guessed it would have such a rise in terms of viewership and players getting salaries in 6 figs. getting to the top at the moment in sc2 is too difficult for the random player. viewing the future, who knows what will happen for dota 2. Who will be at the top in a few years, its hard do say. but i was mainly stating that the way LevenT suggested sc2 is a much better esport to get into now based on his past dealings with Dota is a purely wrong way of looking at things. then interests come in. to get good in sc2, you have to enjoy playing the game. Myself? i dont like playing the game as much as watching it. I get bored playing consistently. this is one of the reasons that i criticized him for telling the op to switch to sc2. playerwise, sc2 has a smaller playerbase than dota. dota is a more social game than sc2, you play with friends (which i enjoy the most). dota 2 is at its infancy. The heroes are not all transferred and even watching tournaments shows how volatile it is. Anyone can win. this is similiar to the early sc2 beta. U had players doing well in a game that was barely developed. Watch some of those beta games and see how awful those players play. Look at dota also, compare a game say now between two chinese teams=DK And IG(match is tomorrow btw!) and a match 4 years ago (levent's time). theres a huge difference in skill level/tactics and strategy. people need to let dota 2 grow, see the teams that stick around ( key factor in dota) and the teams that practice to get better. you have teams which i think are not the strongest getting sponsors but in the future if China melds its scene with ours, you have new domination. Those chinese teams along with the teams willing to train as hard as them and practice as hard as them. (EG for example now) this is like how players that have went to korea in sc2 have trained hard are showing the most results=naniwa/huk/idra/thorzain/ret. these players r the ones dominating the international scene along with the top of the korean scene. they are taking games off them and showing how training is the most important part of sc2. (naniwa at the mlg finals) We have to wait and see how dota 2 will fare but if you want to predict when the scene gets stable (like the sc2 scene. it took a while too and no one rushed it and now its developed players that consistently do well ) , you have to wait. | ||
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
We're talking more about control, not game design. relying on others means relying on external variables, and these are variables which a player has minimal control over. Starcraft 2, you are in control of the variables that can grant you merit. | ||
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BuLba
United States1585 Posts
Those external variables can be teamwork/individual play from each player on a team. thats what adds the excitement to dota. but like you are saying you have to rely on others too and being on teams before, i realize how that can add resentment to playing dota. case in point: select used to play dota. we used to be good friends and then sc2 came out. he had always had an RTS background and said that he didnt want to play competitive dota because u had to rely on a team. he didnt like having a weak link on the team (which always exists on teams regardless of how good everyone is) and switched to sc2. but looking at the other competitive dota players. they are willing to deal with these social factors and play the game. Why? they like playing with other people in a social environment and they will sacrifice those external factors from hurting them towards playing the game. but how does that say one game makes it a better esport or more professional like what Judicator was suggesting Levent was saying (which he clearly doesnt even mention in his arguments. instead he wants to use insults made of ignorance)? | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
Also yeah, what's really difficult in DotA is not to be good ... it's a game with very easy mechanics, and you don't need to play all day to maitain them, once you have them you just don't really lose them ; just need to have those mechanics, the knowledge and be smart to be good. The problem is to find 4 other good players who you mash really well with and who have the same goals, and it can be really really difficult. So to the OP, do whatever you like but if you think you have to commit 100% to the game to be good etc, it's bullshit you're just fooling yourself, you may need to do this to be extremely good at SC2, you don't for DotA. I also think DotA 2 becoming big is not really a question, they said they want to run The International every year, with the same prize pool, so that alone makes it worth it to have teams commit to practising full time to win it. As bulba said it's just a matter of time. | ||
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BuLba
United States1585 Posts
i also have no idea why i replied in the first place considering most of his core argument was predicated on judicator's advocate stance and he just made himself look like a stereotyping ignorant individual. like i said, get over yourself. you think your experiences are somewhat relate-able after a 5 year gap and should be the standard for years to come. | ||
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LastDance
New Zealand510 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On December 11 2011 12:37 BuLba wrote: but let me ask what constitutes for you, success in sc2? having only a sponsorship/winning nothing/no salary? just a tag? winning occasionally vs a pro in some tournament/some income from gaming/ a semi-respectable tag having that prized sponsorship/ winning or placing in top of tournaments/considered a top player in NA and europe/ having a fanbase and thousands of players watching you being casted by tastosis/husky/day9 which is success in sc2? theres a huge different and gap between what the top receive and what players like my friend receive. they get a tag/ a team to practice with but no income. barely any prize winnings from those weekly tournaments which are actually getting quite hard with koreans like artist and hwangsin entering. then in dota. what is success? if you say that success is only what navi gets, compare that to what the top of success is in sc2. it was by far easier to get what navi has now compared to what a player like huk has with his 6 figure salary or idra with his huge fanbase. Edit: but its not just my friend, how often do you even see new players join the scene and surprise us? develop a fanbase. its always the same streamers with viewers. you have that occasional spanishiwa(his hype has lessened) or gatored (who is quite good) or coltrimaster who takes out idra. but who says they are at the success of huk. success is such a hard term to define. there are levels. in sc2 the gap between levels of success is huge. in dota not so much. in any tournament in any idea, a team can surprise us and do well. but usually the teams doing well are the ones who practice/who have good individual skill and who have good synergy. Most of the top players usually play with themselves anyways. everytime pgg remakes a team, you know whos going to be on it. those same russians. everytime m5 remakes a team, they contain those same players. ya the scene has to maintain stable teams but proving yourself in dota is a lot easier. even playing with the top is easier. I know my teammate Universe, who was a relatively unknown player. However, i used to be friends with him before and asked him to play with me demon and fear when we played in asian leagues on RGC. his skill was recognized and he got a chance to go all the way to the international. Powernet, a player that came out of the scene recently developed a huge fanbase after his performance in MYM prime nations. its easier to mix yourself with the top in dota than it is in sc2. easier to get yourself noticed. Dota casts like joindota and front page gosugamers casts of random dota tournaments maintain 500-1.5k viewers. these are for even small tournaments. compare that to some weekly stream viewer count for a weekly sc2 tournament. the numbers are significantly lower for the latter. what im trying to say is that its way harder to get to the top in sc2 than get noticed than in dota. I am not getting into that line of defining success, but merely making a point about someone like yourself who have been around for a while now with relatively little to show for it despite having the individual skill to do so. I am saying SC2 has a clear model for success as a player, you have the opportunity to play in various Open tournaments to get your name out there. Your name is what identifies you as a skilled player and gives you "brand" recognition. DotA does not give you that luxury unless you are extremely talented (I would argue more talented than SC2) as a player. DotA is extremely unforgiving in that regards. I find your line of thinking contradictory when your argument goes: Universe made it all the International after he played with Demon and Fear, his skill was recognized and rewarded as such over a span of time. This is an extreme example, no? Then you turn around and make the argument against SC2 by calling examples of Gatored and the others as being extremely rare. Edit: I would also argue that the perceived skill level of the top SC2 players works in advantage of the up and coming players, if they are capable of taking sets/matches off of them in a tournament setting. It's almost instant name recognition and at the very least puts the relatively unknown player on the map. You do not get that luxury unless you are already an established player in DotA. Fanboyism aside, when a team succeeds, how much can you attribute to a single player? Better yet, how will that player respond if he's in a different team/situation? Notice we all say team beats team, very rarely do we consistently say player beats player. That distinction becomes very important when teams break up and re-form. This is also part of the reason why I am more inclined to say that Dota 2 won't be as big as some of you think it will be. Personalities and casters make the game successful at e-sports, we really don't have prominent ones for either. | ||
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BuLba
United States1585 Posts
realistically it was always hard for any team of na players to put aside their egos and sacrifice roles for the betterment of the team. i think in na's recent past, only EG with demon/fear/merlini actually managed a top success with farmf4fame some time ago and the recent Nations victory for our team. these have been the only successes of the NA scene in quite some time besides pokerstars(demons) play at SMM. fear did this on his current roster where he has become a pure support player which has been totally different than any of his past roles. i can see how you state that sc2 has a clear road to success without the politics of creating teams/dealing with each other. However, the fact is that being successful in the current pool of players in sc2 consistently to actually make something of yourself is quite difficult. you have the few breakout starts but they never consistently stay at the top. Sc2 markets players as names while dota markets the team as a whole. dota 1 didnt really even set up a system for NA. besides CEVO like 2 years ago, there hasnt ever been any motivation or system for North america in dota. the opportunities we all had were minimal and i think that is the problem you state according to success. However, now there will be more opportunities. compared to the successful tournaments that ran only twice a year, now tournaments are popping up weekly. This will allow more breakout stars in the dota 2 scene hopefully. This coincides with what you stated about various Open tournaments in starcraft 2. The competition in those open tournaments are a lot harder than what would be the current competition in dota tournaments. you have the few top teams but you dont have those top chinese teams participating. In the sc2 open tournaments such as nasl (other tournaments as well)qualifiers, the chances of a korean winning are quite huge. its harder to be noticed. but with dota 2's scene rising, these opportunities will hopefully present itself and more players will be known. I dont think it was ever a problem of dota being unforgiving but the fact that dota 1 never had many opportunities. dota 2 will hopefully fix that. losing a tournament in dota 1 caused you to wait 3 months for the next one. Kind of like brood war where there were only a few important foreigner tourneys (WCG/TSL). So in other words, wait to see how the scene grows, See the different opportunities players have now that sponsors are being serious about dota and then evaluate from there no reason to predict this or that | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10364 Posts
On December 10 2011 15:51 EternaLEnVy wrote: thanks, that was just a typo, i did fix it. 45minutes is too long for a game really? Don't Pubs usually last like 40minutes with picks? Oh, I thought you meant 45 minutes to match up to START TO play xD. I was assuming that if you were so high leveled it would probably be hard to find worthy opponents, and since DotA games take longer than SC2 it would be hard to match up at the right times, and that's why it took so long to start one. But even so if you stream continuous commercials between Dota games, you won't need nearly as many viewers as you do SC2 streams, but then again if you're playing on a dota team your teammates might want a share of it. 5 minutes of waiting in queue * 2 commercials per minute * 100 viewers = $5. Not that bad especially if you play like 10 hours a day which is like a 70 hour work week, and if you get something from your team sponsors that's nice too, or if you win prizes. You'd get 186.66$ a week or $9333.33 a year. It's a bit low but if you live with others (share apartment or something) it might be doable. Maybe if you start the norm and make it standard for dota players to play a commercial when you die and other times where you're not doing anything (like early game if you're just walking back home to the fountain and back to the lane) you can fit in 5-10 more commercials per game, so that's 15-20 commercials per 45 minutes or $14,000 to $18,666 a year. That should be good enough to live on. But once again that's only if your team doesn't want any or you play with pubs. Idk if you can play any worthwhile high level games just through pubs. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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sWitcH.659
Canada96 Posts
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:24 sWitcH.659 wrote: I'm not sure how this suggestion will be taken but why not League of Legends? If MOBA is the genre that you want to be competitive in, LoL has the most established circuit with the largest prize pool. If you have professional experience in MOBA then the only adjustments would be to the faster play style and champions. There are very big gameplay differences. Also as a whole I think in terms of playerbase DotA beats out LoL. However this could just be my hate for the game. With the entire buying heroes and all that junk. If dota2 takes off, it'll be a larger and better esport  | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On December 11 2011 14:54 BuLba wrote: well there goes the fact that it is a team game. In NA i consider a very small amount of individuals even able to do well internationally besides fear and demon. with an actual team of american players including both fear's leadership and experience and demon's skill, i thought we could do fairly well. Even Demon admitted that the team we had for nations had some of the best teamwork hes played with before in his dota career. However, because of school/age/experience and other factors, it isnt possible. The level that those two want to play and strive to play at and the dedication they want to show towards the game is beyond what anyone else in NA can do. ive always played this game for fun and only recently (within the past half year or so after nations) thought about actually playing competitive dota seriously. realistically it was always hard for any team of na players to put aside their egos and sacrifice roles for the betterment of the team. i think in na's recent past, only EG with demon/fear/merlini actually managed a top success with farmf4fame some time ago and the recent Nations victory for our team. these have been the only successes of the NA scene in quite some time besides pokerstars(demons) play at SMM. fear did this on his current roster where he has become a pure support player which has been totally different than any of his past roles. i can see how you state that sc2 has a clear road to success without the politics of creating teams/dealing with each other. However, the fact is that being successful in the current pool of players in sc2 consistently to actually make something of yourself is quite difficult. you have the few breakout starts but they never consistently stay at the top. Sc2 markets players as names while dota markets the team as a whole. dota 1 didnt really even set up a system for NA. besides CEVO like 2 years ago, there hasnt ever been any motivation or system for North america in dota. the opportunities we all had were minimal and i think that is the problem you state according to success. However, now there will be more opportunities. compared to the successful tournaments that ran only twice a year, now tournaments are popping up weekly. This will allow more breakout stars in the dota 2 scene hopefully. This coincides with what you stated about various Open tournaments in starcraft 2. The competition in those open tournaments are a lot harder than what would be the current competition in dota tournaments. you have the few top teams but you dont have those top chinese teams participating. In the sc2 open tournaments such as nasl (other tournaments as well)qualifiers, the chances of a korean winning are quite huge. its harder to be noticed. but with dota 2's scene rising, these opportunities will hopefully present itself and more players will be known. I dont think it was ever a problem of dota being unforgiving but the fact that dota 1 never had many opportunities. dota 2 will hopefully fix that. losing a tournament in dota 1 caused you to wait 3 months for the next one. Kind of like brood war where there were only a few important foreigner tourneys (WCG/TSL). So in other words, wait to see how the scene grows, See the different opportunities players have now that sponsors are being serious about dota and then evaluate from there no reason to predict this or that Eh, Brood War is a poor example simply because you had Korea. Dota 1 had it's opportunities relative to it's popularity. I mean the tournament gaps is about the same in any competitive video/computer game, you have majors and if you wanted to play regularly you had in-house leagues or pugs. I have no doubt the scene will grow, but I don't expect it to continually grow, or rather it's going to apex and then decline much like CS did. As for the NASL reasoning, my point is that you don't actually need to win the tournament to make a name for yourself. If you just knock out a well-established player, you have essentially achieved what you wanted, name recognition. On the other hand for DotA, when upsets happen, people get excited and MAYBE you as an individual player get some temporary recognition. In either case, your continued success on one hand depends on your own ability to develop as a player in SC2 or your team in DotA. The duality of the player-team in Dota makes it harder for you to establish yourself to the casual crowd (aka those who don't watch anything but major tournaments). | ||
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
obviously bulba is talking about foreigners... | ||
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Proposal
United States1310 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
 Maybe ur just unhappy about ur current course. Like have u considered that maybe u should do something else or maybe switch it up a bit academically? | ||
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