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hey i remember this guy called milkies who made a post similiar to this on reddit where hes like "if you dont play brood war or sc2, you dont play an esport. the only esport is starcraft and other games are not."
i think he got ostracized by the entire sc2 community on forums, on the popular radio show (State of the game) and eventually he resigned from his spot as MLG's top translator because of this. I think idra flamed him, incontrol called him out, and even day9 said it was not a smart idea..
you my friend are a fucking dumbass you are calling me close minded and say this on the same forums that flamed him out of the community.
you have no idea what irony means
you have no idea how to construct an argument
you are an angry aggressive dumb stubborn German (HEY I USED A STEREOTYPE LIKE YOU DID HEHE IM AN AMERICAN IM A RETARD)
User was warned for this post
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On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students.
Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy.
I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at.
Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
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The game has lasted for like 8 years now and is extremely popular in the largest market in the world, much moreso than SC2. To suggest this new version would dry up in 5 years is a big short sighted, it's lifespan would be roughly that of SC2's (maybe 65-80% as long as SC2's), but it has developer support this time. But that is a pretty irrelevant point since nobody is a top player that long anyways.
In 8 years, Na'Vi will have a new lineup, so will MYM, and EG. Suggesting that SC2 is a better idea than Dota 2 because of the lifespan of the game is stupid because the lifespan of the game will outlast the lifespan of the player.
Also, why tell Bulba to clean up his post when Levent's have been as if not more inflammatory lol.
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On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously.
the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wiser
and the reason i replied like that compared to my first post where i didnt even target anyone was because he started calling me out and insulting me. im not going to sit by and let him make statements full of irony and ignorance.
ya he was a player that got carried by his team some 5 years ago
what gives him the right to talk down to anyone?
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This Levent is a really Reto.
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On December 11 2011 10:17 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:12 S_SienZ wrote:
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead. Which supports a max of like 72 viewers. And for tournament/custom games, a max of 4. So imagine a scenario where every starcraft 2 viewer lost up to 75 viewers, Uh oh.
I doubt tourneys would allow you to stream from FP view anyway.
Did not know that the viewer cap was intended to be permanent. My assumption was that valve would eventually expand it. My apologies then.
I never meant my comments to be offensive in any way.
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Do you still stream often Bulba? I never see your stream up anymore
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On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr.
He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic.
Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
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And the most ignorant thing is if you say that people dont regard top hon/dota 2/dota players as professional, why would EG (the richest sponsor in esports) pay EG flights all the way to china, to in essence TRAIN. pay them to malaysia including a standin, pay playmates ticket back to europe and pay for their hotel/food/travel each and every day.
why would all these sponsors suddenly flock to dota 2? to sponsor teams that did fairly well in dota 1 but not substantially well to lans like Kiev/dreamhack/ESWC.
they realize that this newly built game is here to stay. again 5 years?? who knows what games will exist 5 years in the future. do you think the current sc2 players will still be at the top in 5 years?? when jaedong/flash bisu and the other a/b teamers join sc2.
your basing your entire argument on factors you cant account for and have no proof about
but go ahead br0, use those european flame tactics.
. pizdec emerikansssss
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On December 11 2011 10:29 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:17 Zlasher wrote:On December 11 2011 10:12 S_SienZ wrote:
One thing to keep in mind though in lieu with the stuff you've mentioned:
Dota 2 has DotaTV. This makes it moreso for Dota than SC2, that you better have a personality like Destiny / fanbase like HuK / analysis like Artosis otherwise people might not see the reason to check out your stream instead. Which supports a max of like 72 viewers. And for tournament/custom games, a max of 4. So imagine a scenario where every starcraft 2 viewer lost up to 75 viewers, Uh oh. I doubt tourneys would allow you to stream from FP view anyway. Did not know that the viewer cap was intended to be permanent. My assumption was that valve would eventually expand it. My apologies then. I never meant my comments to be offensive in any way.
Look on the right side of your teamliquid screen lol. There is no reason to assume that it'll be much different than SC2, or HoN for that matter, you can stream the tournaments for some and not others, its usually the streamers choice since they don't want to get stream cheated, sometimes they throw up an overlay to cover the minimap, sometimes they don't stream at all. In the end though the viewers come for matchmaking play, the viewers will still be there.
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On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
Talking more about the international. Since valve paid for flights/trips/food/hotel, players felt entitled to their money. I know universe and 1437 didnt give any money to ok nirvana.
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My personality is different so its up to people to decide, though my analysis is pretty strong.
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On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2.
"Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
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Umm, kind of c-c-c-combo breaker here, but is this the old mymlevent?
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Also, not every team takes a % of the prize money, usually its never more than 10% of prize money and it'll never exceed the price of what the team is paying in terms of travel (flight hotel).
Navi didn't take any
EG has said before that they don't take any, etc.
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On December 11 2011 10:36 Ognam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2. "Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
my "optimism" is based on proof of sponsors picking up teams for dota 2, tournaments popping up in beta on a weekly basis and popularity of the game. anyways regardless of what we say, dota is here to stay. if you want to compare #'s, China's views of dota tournaments are so much more significant than sc2 in korea nd outside korea. If by sole numbers, dota is the most popular esport in terms of viewership because of China. Sgamer site visits everyday easily eclipse other forums.
ya ucan compare populations but i know for a fact that teams will start switching to dota 2 as well. this will be upcoming but Ehome will feature a roster solely dedicated to Dota 2 soon. Same with other teams switching. Perfect_cat (ehome player) told me that a lot of Chinese pros even enjoy dota 2 now compared to their original reaction. Their original reaction is kind of like euro teams to dota 2 as well. Most of them hated it at first but now everyone loves it except for one guy here and there. same can be said for starcraft 2 as well but people were forced to switch anyways.
if more teams go to China, to live in houses similiar to ones in sc2 ( what foreign team even has a house in korea yet for a long time tho in sc2? FXO had one for a bit but wasnt that just the gom house?), think of the possibilites. eg has improved drastically just off a month in china. giving close series to DK/panda/nirvana.cn
its clearly not just optimism but just common sense
but anyways levent, time to stop living in the past.
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On December 11 2011 10:36 Ognam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2. "Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game.
You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
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On December 11 2011 10:48 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:36 Ognam wrote:On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2. "Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game. You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view.
Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
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As a fellow UofT student (lifesci) I wish you the best of luck with your Dota2 career. EngSci is extremely tough and I hope you made the right choice in deciding that it is not for you. Good luck friend!
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On December 11 2011 10:53 Ognam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 10:48 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 10:36 Ognam wrote:On December 11 2011 10:32 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 10:24 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 10:19 Judicator wrote:On December 11 2011 09:55 BuLba wrote:On December 11 2011 09:40 LevenT wrote:
Bulba dont make me laugh here.
i know this is the TL forums and i should stay classy here, but i rly would like to harm u physically for all the lies u spread here with your comments.
First of all u base all your beliefs from this ONE Tourney, dont u see it? Thats exactly what valve wanted, the whole tournament was for marketing pupose ONLY.This an event that will happen ONCE a year( we are not even 100 % sure about that).
And like i said only teams like navi will really benefit from it.I can garantee u that top counterstrike teams like fnatic,SK,mouz or Navi CS made much more than navis Dota team.So stop spilling false statements becoz of your closeminded fanboyism, i just feel so offended by your post, u show no repsect at all.
And u were the one bringing up the money topic, not me.I was talking about the proffesional aspect and how the game is treated. AND dont even think to associate "e-sports" with dota 2, it doesnt deserve it yet.Only starcraft 2 does. ..damn aggressive y0 but you are talking about the professional aspect of not the game.. but sponsors. i am sure brood war had the same problem at least outside of Korea where sponsors did not pay up and tournaments did shady things. i dont know why you are correlating the professional aspect to a game that was a mod and not even supported by the company that built its engine. The game has had barely NO time to be treated professionally. goddamnit the game hasnt even been released yet. and the OP is asking how to direct his life and without any proof whatsoever of dota's future nor any idea of what will happen, you straight up say "hey dont play this game. cause ive played this game for so long and im a big pro whoopdedoo and i know from experience that this game wont grow, that players wont be treated professionally and its a huge waste of time (INSERT AD HOMINEM COMMENT HERE)" and then you bring up weak minds with this attitude. What about if this eternalenvy guy has a passion for these type of games? that he loves playing them and that he dislikes playing games like sc2 because he finds it repetitive and boring. i know plenty of people (myself included) who love watching sc2 but dont find a lot of fun playing it for long hours. why? because the game isnt as social as dota where you can play with other friends. so you straight up crushed his dreams and said that "yo, this game you love wont go anywhere, advice you to ditch and join this other game that is a dream come true but is realistically VERY DIFFICULT to get good at/go professional at and against all odds to place even close to the top in any tournament" also you accuse me of closeminded fanboyism and also articulate that you want to beat the shit out of me because of my opinion which is probably shared with tons of other people here in the wait wait wait... is this the DOTA 2 SUBFORUMS FOR DOTA FANS TALKING ABOUT DOTA 2's FUTURE. someone needs some anger management. you're the fucking Grinch bud. also im basing this off tournaments in BETA. the defense -14k prize pool soon another tournament (not supposed to say it yet) but -20k prize pool and another tournament that im not supposed to say yet for 5k but ya this game aint going anywhere. and only teams like navi will benefit from it? i know iceiceice from singapore through some asian league. he got his 60k USD cash prize last month. he told me he could pay rent finally and that it changed his life. his team got second place. i just dont understand what ur tryin to say. your saying it is a once a year tournament. but FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS? with the other fucking tournaments popping up here and there, thats going to be even more and more. and its only once a year and it will only affect navi and not the 40other players who got close to half a million bucks in prize money who probably have no income/live with their parents/work for low wages or are students. Simply put...show me some proof that this won't dry up in 5 years...read the OP's circumstances and then consider the fact that he's suspending his college degree for X years to MAYBE succeed at DotA. Basing your conclusions off of this past year and the upcoming year is...optimistic, but foolhardy. I am not going to shit on your opinion like Levent did, but keep in mind, you are extremely optimistic that this will sustain itself for a significant time frame at the levels it currently is at. Also clean up your posts, this isn't GG.net or PD.com, no reason to type like that, especially if you want people to take you seriously. the problem i have is that he is straight up telling him that dota 2 wont succeed and to switch to sc2 without any basis of argument. he has no idea what the OP wants. ya i agree with others that say he shouldnt completely shut off his life for dota but to have an attitude like LevenT did. i am being optimistic in the regards that if the OP had to choose one path, it would be a lot better for him to chose dota 2 to go professional. Why? Because getting to the top and calling yourself a professional player in sc2 is ridiculously impossible. i meant to the top as in the level players like Select or naniwa. Getting to the level to financially support yourself is way too hard in any esport but if the OP had to choose one, Dota would be wisesr. He's just literally presenting the other side of the coin. He's pessimistic and you're optimistic. Also, I would be more alarmed at the sponsors taking little money from the winnings of their players for the future of Dota 2. "Pessimistic" is quite the understatement. He's basically saying that DotA has zero future, despite the fact that as a custom map it has gained more popularity than the game on which it was built. Evidence is clearly pointing to DotA2 getting big, so I don't see how Levent's attitude is justified. Literally EVERY big name sponsor recently picked up teams, so they obviously see a future in the game. You realize that big names have been in DotA before right? Like what we are seeing isn't anything different from what we've seen before (in a relative sense). I am not defending Levent's stance, but rather justifying his approach to the situation. Just look at the developmental path of CS which is a much more accessible game from a casual spectator's point of view. Yes, big sponsors have been in DotA before, but we've never seen a game push sponsors to pick up teams before its even released. It's not the fact that they have teams, but the fact that they all recently moved to is that is such strong evidence. And I understand his approach to the situation. He was shafted by terrible tournaments/sponsors that never followed through on their promises and doesn't see any reason why that would change, but the fact is that sponsors/tournaments have come a long way since he was relevant in DotA.
What proof do you have that it's different than before? Hype is hype, I have yet to see anything substantial. The EG example is promising, but I have yet to see any kind of self-sustaining model in DotA in contrast to say SC2.
Edit:
Sponsors picking up teams is just an example of hype, more so picking it up before a title is released. Just because said sponsors are here now doesn't mean they'll be there down the line. Could it get better? Sure. Could it get worse? Sure.
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EPT
