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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:42 ffreakk wrote:
@StimedPylon
I tried searching online but found no source on SC:BW sales coming mostly off pre-2001 period. If only you could kindly provide the source? And you are ignoring the point of the Starcraft franchise getting free 10-years worth of advertisement, on prime-time television slots, many hours a day, with celebrities and fans supporting it to boot.
But this argument doesnt belong to this thread, if you wish to, you should go to the general forums and make a thread for civilised discussion on this topic, and everyone can debate to their heart's content. This thread is mainly for the appreciation of the translator's work, and the information provided above.
I too want to see the source that says most of the sales were pre 2001. That sounds very iffy.
The only other information that seems to be readily available is that as of 2007 almost 10 million copies of sc and bw had been sold 4.5 million of which were in Korea.
On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote
The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3.
As for the pirating, I still fail to see how it is either MBC or Kespa's problem. Neither of those support or take part in pirating of sc, they are creating content from copies of sc/bw that they have purchased legally.
While it is the case that Kespa is using Blizzard's IP for their own purposes, to link this with pirating which DIRECTLY takes away from sales is both erroneous and irrelevant to the case at hand.
On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote
Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
I for one want this to drag on as long as possible, Kespa might not be the most competent group of organisers, but right now, they ARE the entire BW scene. Whether or not they are in the right, Blizzard have shown themselves to be entirely incapable or unwilling to create an esports infrastructure as far reaching as the one Kespa already has. If BW infrastructure were to degenerate into the laughable individual tournament only 'infrastructure' that sc2 has, it may as well be dead.
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I can't believe how selfish both parties are. This is really a weird decision for Blizzard to continue the case and push for transition from BW to SC2, despite how much I want to see more sc2 with better players.
They do have a legal position though, SC is a product for sale, not a form of entertainment for public domain.
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This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
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On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote:
This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights.
Your post is BS.
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On January 31 2011 19:32 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote:
This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs. Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights. Your post is BS.
Have you read any of the earlier posts, or anything regarding copyrights in general?
The "Live user streams" on the right column of this site is a violation of Blizzard's rights. Any public presentation of SC1 or SC2, beyond "fair use", without Blizzard's consent is a violation. If Blizzard really wanted to, for strategic reasons, they could force the takedown of any live streaming.
Why don't you contact your lawyer and demand a change in the DMCA? Otherwise stop making fallacious statements and calling other people's posts BS.
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On January 31 2011 16:20 hmsrenown wrote:
I can't believe how selfish both parties are. This is really a weird decision for Blizzard to continue the case and push for transition from BW to SC2, despite how much I want to see more sc2 with better players.
They do have a legal position though, SC is a product for sale, not a form of entertainment for public domain.
SC being a product for sale is not the legal position. The code, artwork, sounds, and music belong to Blizzard. If you do a stream the game, at a certain point it could be considered an infringement of Blizzard's rights, even if you bought the game and make no money off your stream. Now the distinction betwee fair use and infringement can be very unclear times, but in the case of OGN/MBCGame, it's pretty clear.
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On January 30 2011 08:37 frozt_ wrote:
thanks for the translating, hopefully this ordeal will be settled next time in counrt, third time is the charm!
Don't count on it.
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It's pretty big that MBC and OGN can be jointly defended. Gretech/Blizzard splitting them up would swing things more into their favor.
The transition part is interesting but we don't have nearly enough information on it to really understand the context of it yet, so I'll reserve my thoughts.
No injunction is nice. A suit for 350M won, isn't that supposed to be 1 years worth of contracting for each league? I seem to remember 100M won for broadcasting per league per season.
Overall I think this court session went very well for MBC/OGN.
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On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:17 Gold Fish wrote:On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote:
mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game.
bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now.
there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out.
this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard. While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much. I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look hereFrom the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear) The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm... Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company). An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too). Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided. I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA. The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3. Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
Please cite your source about SC: BW selling the majority of the copies before 2001, if you cant, please take back that assumption because it doesnt bring anything useful to the discussion.
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On February 01 2011 03:23 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote:On January 31 2011 10:17 Gold Fish wrote:On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote:
mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game.
bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now.
there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out.
this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard. While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much. I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look hereFrom the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear) The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm... Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company). An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too). Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided. I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA. The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3. Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become. Please cite your source about SC: BW selling the majority of the copies before 2001, if you cant, please take back that assumption because it doesnt bring anything useful to the discussion.
there isnt one 
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The counterpoint could be made as well, I would like to see the sources showing sales for the game when BW started to get really big on TV, I would bet you it would be a significant amount, and that it would be a tiny blip on the graph at most.
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On February 01 2011 11:38 graph1k wrote:
The counterpoint could be made as well, I would like to see the sources showing sales for the game when BW started to get really big on TV, I would bet you it would be a significant amount, and that it would be a tiny blip on the graph at most.
Nobody is making conclusions or arguments based in "imaginary" sellings in some stage of the game , only this guy (who by far is the most annoying one in this thread), so the counter is absolutely irrelevant to this topic. I have seen people who support Blizzard side with arguments but this one.....
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Saw a couple people in the thread mention how good the publicity has been for Blizz. Was just pointing out that I have not seen any numbers on that either.
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I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
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On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote:
I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x
You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
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On January 31 2011 21:15 dookudooku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 19:32 ShadeR wrote:On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote:
This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs. Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights. Your post is BS. Have you read any of the earlier posts, or anything regarding copyrights in general? The "Live user streams" on the right column of this site is a violation of Blizzard's rights. Any public presentation of SC1 or SC2, beyond "fair use", without Blizzard's consent is a violation. If Blizzard really wanted to, for strategic reasons, they could force the takedown of any live streaming. Why don't you contact your lawyer and demand a change in the DMCA? Otherwise stop making fallacious statements and calling other people's posts BS.
That is the big question. Are user streams a violation of "IP" or not?
To quote NFL:
"This telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience. Any other use of this telecast or of any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent, is prohibited."
So, we're not allowed to talk about what happened at the Probowl ...
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At the very least, user streams broadcast Blizzard's artwork (unless you're talking about people discussing a game without showing it?) so it's akin to going to the Superbowl with your handcam and streaming the game.
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On February 01 2011 22:02 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote:
I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
I need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check?
Blizzcon attendance this year was 27,000 (estimate). Granted it was spread across games but it shows US CAN draw the crowd. One of the GSL finals had only 1800 attendees. Maybe you should continue your attempts at "maturity" before commenting.
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and Blizzard lawyers answered "They cannot address that in the middle of the lawsuit"
wtf?
a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2
so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
EDIT: OK my post was very anti Blizzard, so let me say that I do believe that Kespa/MBC/OGN SHOULD come to a compensation point (however that may be) with Blizzard so that they are happy, since it is their IP. However, they (defending parties) have stated many times that it is non-profit, and have given visibility into the money they bring in and the costs. So is the problem that they can't find a way to pay Blizzard for some broadcasting rights? I call bullshit.
Seriously, just charge Qook n show, Rush n Cashy, and all those other people paying for commercial time just a little bit more and give Blizzard that money and feed the hungry monster so we can live happily ever after and keep enjoying our BW.
EDIT2: In response to the post below me- then if it's about power, they should be suing Kespa and trying to remove them from the picture so they have control over the whole thing, not MBC/OGN for broadcasting rights. I'm not claiming to know the ins-and-outs, but it just sounds to me like they're trying to shove sc2 down everyone's throats
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On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote:
so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
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EPT
