EPTOGN/MBCGame vs Blizzard, Second Session - Page 11
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights. Er, am I the only one looking at this and thinking 'no shit, Sherlock'? I mean, the whole case hinges on whether Blizzard can prove that their IP rights were violated. That's the single fundamental essence of the case. It seems completely unnecessary to specifically ask Blizzard to do that. Unless that's just the way they run these things in S. Korea. | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 30 2011 05:38 tapk69 wrote: Well if someone thinks a game made 10 years ago is the future , they should think again.. Starcraft is not poker... Poker is no chess and chess was made 1094854 years ago.... pfff why are you comparing them?? Even games made within the last 10 years is no starcraft (i.e starcraft 2...*flameshield on?*) | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 30 2011 05:23 graph1k wrote: Wow, calm down boyo. From everything all parties have said on this matter, it isn't Blizzard trying to shut down BW, they just want everyone broadcasting it to be paying them at least something to be showing it. They are making sure their product is theirs, and someone else doesn't profit form their hard work without giving them something. People may say it is greedy, but that is what a company is for, making money off of the products they make. If someone started showing House on a station that was not paying for the rights to show it, they would immediately be told to stop and if they didn't, would be sued. The NFL also controls who shows their games. NBC cannot just decide to show the games and sell the rights to other stations. For those asking why Blizz did not go after this sooner, it was simply because they really couldn't, they are not a Korean company, and before the US-Korean trade agreements they really had no legal ground to stand on. I am not saying Blizzard do not have some fault in this, or that they should get everything they are asking for. They have not handled this the best but too many people see them talking about BW and just foam at the mouth. As a note: in my opinion, SC2 will help E-sports much more than BW at this point. People who are just getting into E-sports will not want to watch the outdated graphics of BW. The nicer looking SC2 will appeal to them much more, and will be easier to get into. I don't want BW to go away, but if you think BW is the future of E-sports you are sadly mistaken. Then it brings into question why not let BW alone, if SC2 will appeal to more, then let it appeal to more, why even bother with suing about "outdated" game like BW. In terms of your comparison with NFL and NBC, it might be more appropriate to compare the NBA, NBC, and the creator of basketball to the issue, since we know who "created" basketball originally. The NFL and NBA would be like Kespa, NBC would be like MBC/OGN (of current), and Blizzard would be like the creator of basketball (what's his face/name). It's like the creator of basketball, he made the game, and let it be. Then the NBA (or it's predecessors) promoted it, used it, and expanded it into a national sport, then 30 years later, the creator comes by and says "whoops I own all the rights, I want control of players and and rights to all the games created by the players, all decisions have to be okayed by me". | ||
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frozt_
United States234 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On January 30 2011 05:57 henzi wrote: Then it brings into question why not let BW alone, if SC2 will appeal to more, then let it appeal to more, why even bother with suing about "outdated" game like BW. In terms of your comparison with NFL and NBC, it might be more appropriate to compare the NBA, NBC, and the creator of basketball to the issue, since we know who "created" basketball originally. The NFL and NBA would be like Kespa, NBC would be like MBC/OGN (of current), and Blizzard would be like the creator of basketball (what's his face/name). It's like the creator of basketball, he made the game, and let it be. Then the NBA (or it's predecessors) promoted it, used it, and expanded it into a national sport, then 30 years later, the creator comes by and says "whoops I own all the rights, I want control of players and and rights to all the games created by the players, all decisions have to be okayed by me". Even though BW can be considered an e-"sport", it is still a computer game. I think it is difficult to compare Starcraft with real sports since it pretty much boils down to comparing a video game to a sport. Sports can't be copyrighted and trademarked since they are played in a physical medium. As much as we want Starcraft to be a sport, it is still a product of Blizzard entertainment and hasn't reached the age where it can be considered to be "public domain." I don't think the basketball analogy is entirely appropriate to this situation. The creator of basketball didn't invest money into creating the game and wasn't seeking a profit from it. He wasn't creating a series of characters, stories, and code that was at risk of being copied and illegally distributed for a profit. Basketball became a sport because it was not created as a product, so it had nothing to gain or lose from being broadcasted without compensation to the "creator." Unfortunately, Starcraft was created as a product, and Blizzard is treating it as such. Distributing derivative content for a profit usually requires consent from the creator and copyright holder of that content. You can't start writing and selling Batman comics without permission from DC Comics, and you can't start broadcasting your own version of Jeopardy without consent from it's creators. Unfortunately, OGN/MBC didn't have this consent since they didn't even finish their negotiations with Blizzard/Gretech. Blizzard wanted a fee and other terms to accompany this permission, though OGN/MBC and KeSPA didn't agree to the fees and terms, so they never ended up getting that permission. The problem with Blizzard/Gretech suing OGN/MBC is that the lawsuit was never intended in the first place. Blizz/Gret mainly used the specter of a possible lawsuit as an incentive for OGN/MBC and KeSPA to get the negotiations over with. Unfortunately, Blizz/Gret severely underestimated how stubborn KeSPA's position was, so they were forced to go through with their bluff. Plus, the IP rights issue is not too old. Blizzard only started negotiating IP rights in 2007 because they couldn't negotiate it before due to the lack of a clear law allowing them to do so. However, Blizzard's terms encroached too much on KeSPA's authority over the BW scene, and neither side was willing to concede over certain hot issues, so the several negotiations over the years have stalled because of these irreconcilably differences. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On January 30 2011 05:42 The Touch wrote: Er, am I the only one looking at this and thinking 'no shit, Sherlock'? I mean, the whole case hinges on whether Blizzard can prove that their IP rights were violated. That's the single fundamental essence of the case. It seems completely unnecessary to specifically ask Blizzard to do that. Unless that's just the way they run these things in S. Korea. It needs mentioning because Blizzard (and Blizzard supporters) like to take for granted the argument that their IP rights have been violated even though they have done nothing to prove such violations have occured and most importantly they have not clearly described WHAT THEIR IP RIGHTS ACTUALLY ARE (which the defendants are allegedly breaking). | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
"Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article So, ignore me if this was already addressed or discussed to death but...doesn't this prove that Blizzard was indeed trying to kill off the Brood War scene? Fuck you Blizzard, I hope MBC/OGN wins this just based on that. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50600 Posts
On January 30 2011 15:19 overt wrote: So, ignore me if this was already addressed or discussed to death but...doesn't this prove that Blizzard was indeed trying to kill off the Brood War scene? Fuck you Blizzard, I hope MBC/OGN wins this just based on that. read a few pages behind....its suggest the contract between Blizzard and Gretech not Blizzard and OGN/MBC. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On January 30 2011 10:23 ShadeR wrote: It needs mentioning because Blizzard (and Blizzard supporters) like to take for granted the argument that their IP rights have been violated even though they have done nothing to prove such violations have occured and most importantly they have not clearly described WHAT THEIR IP RIGHTS ACTUALLY ARE (which the defendants are allegedly breaking). Here's a good article on a recent incident involving copyrights in video games on SRK: Short Legal Analysis of Capcom's Requested Take Downs... If this OGN/MBCGame vs Blizzard situation took place in the US, Blizzard would win without a fight at all. Broadcasting games without permission clearly falls outside the boundaries of "fair use". Most likely the laws in Korea are less strict than they are in the US, which is why there's even a fight at all. This is also why the basketball analogy does not make sense. The IP rights given to the rules of a game or sport are much less than what's given to the audio and visuals. The NBA cannot sue someone for playing basketball. But they can sue for the use NBA logos in a publicly broadcast performance w/o their consent. By a similar measure, OGN/MBCGame could just create their own game, using their original code, with original graphics and sound, that mimics the gameplay of BW. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
As for suing OGN/MBCGame, everyone can come up with their own theories on why they're doing this. But they wouldn't do this if they felt the backlash would hurt them in the long run. TBH, I don't think the backlash is that big at all. | ||
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
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misirlou
Portugal3241 Posts
On January 30 2011 23:26 dookudooku wrote: One thing to add: If Blizzard wanted to sue your ass for livestreaming, they could, and you'd get your ass kicked in a trial. Even if you don't make any money off ad revenue or whatever. But for strategic reasons they won't, as long as they think you're promoting the game. As for suing OGN/MBCGame, everyone can come up with their own theories on why they're doing this. But they wouldn't do this if they felt the backlash would hurt them in the long run. TBH, I don't think the backlash is that big at all. mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc. they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them. welcome to the kotick era | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
Anyhow, its been discussed to death, guys, this whole Kespa vs Blizz thing.. I think we all should just agree to disagree for now and leave it to the judges. Oh and of course, thanks Milkis for the translation. I cant read Korean (or Chinese) but i dont see any bias in the articles at all, great job as always  | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: nevertheless basketball was still someones idea. someones intelectual property. dont say its not appropriate. James Naismith openly insisted that he invented the rules of basketball for the purpose of recreation and nothing else. Naismith wanted nothing to do with the business of basketball but simultaneously showed little opposition to it (though like American football, the sport was most popular at the college (i.e. amateur) level for the first half of the twentieth century). For all intents and purposes, Naismith's perception of his game was that it was essentially public domain. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc. they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them. welcome to the kotick era I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard. While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much. I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear) The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm... Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company). An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too). Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads. tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided. | ||
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StimedPylon
United Kingdom29 Posts
On January 31 2011 10:17 Gold Fish wrote: I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard. While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much. I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear) Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company). An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too). Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads. tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided. I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA. The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3. Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
I tried searching online but found no source on SC:BW sales coming mostly off pre-2001 period. If only you could kindly provide the source? And you are ignoring the point of the Starcraft franchise getting free 10-years worth of advertisement, on prime-time television slots, many hours a day, with celebrities and fans supporting it to boot. But this argument doesnt belong to this thread, if you wish to, you should go to the general forums and make a thread for civilised discussion on this topic, and everyone can debate to their heart's content. This thread is mainly for the appreciation of the translator's work, and the information provided above. | ||
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