Brief Summary of what happened in the first court session
- MBC Game requested that Blizzard post a collateral [1] - MBC also requested that the case be classified a bit more specific than Blizzard's case for simple IP rights violation, and the judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related - MBC and OGN will be defended together in this case - The judge asked "isn't this something that should end via negotiation". Blizzard Lawyer responded "Yes", and the MBC lawyer responded that they would prefer a decision -- because this is the first case regarding game IP rights, they would like to figure out the legal boundaries of how much of the game they an use. - Blizzard is suing MBC for 350,000,000 won.
Second session took place today on the 28th. Some notes.
- MBC Game responded to the prosecution's IP right violation argument with various arguments that claimed what they were doing was lawful. They also requested the original contract between Gretech and Blizzard [2] questioning Gretech's authority to form contracts. - The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages. - The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights. - The defendants also pointed out that the English contracts between Gretech and Blizzard included an article about a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2 [4], and requested that the prosecution explain themselves, as it strange for Blizzard to claim rights to a BW, as Blizzard had no intentions to hold Brood War tournaments. The judges also ordered that this happen, and Blizzard lawyers answered "They cannot address that in the middle of the lawsuit" - Third trial will take place on March 18th.
Translation Notes [1] apparently MBC is allowed to request this in the case where the opposing party is foreign -- basically, if MBC wins the case, Blizzard will have to compensate MBC for the law fees [2] Blizzard is implied, not 100% sure [3] I'm thinking there's an error here -- since it refers to prosecution, so it would relate to Gretech/Blizzard, but the article claims MBC/OGN. [4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
Thanks for translating, saw this over on thisisgame earlier. It seems like there's been delay after delay but the judge certainly is interested in getting all the facts, so regardless of people agreeing or disagreeing with the eventual decision, it will at least be a fully informed one.
I'm sure I'm not alone in just wishing it would all be over already ;_;
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
That's pretty hilarious.
Wait, I don't get it, so what if Blizzard wins MBC has to transition to SC2? Or that the terms offered by Blizzard included a transition to SC2?
Edit: Also, thanks Milkis for translating, seems that you have news every time I visit the local Korean mart lol.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
That's pretty hilarious.
Wait, I don't get it, so what if Blizzard wins MBC has to transition to SC2? Or that the terms offered by Blizzard included a transition to SC2?
Edit: Also, thanks Milkis for translating, seems that you have news every time I visit the local Korean mart lol.
I didn't get it either....Anyways thanks milkis I was looking forward to this and expected this to happen.
lol...what they are forcing them to go to SC2? You kidding me? I am neutral on this whole part but that part of the article made me laugh. Blizzard has no power, or the rights to force anyone to switch over to Starcraft 2. Don't over step the boundaries Blizzard, give me a f-ing break.
On January 28 2011 15:42 Waxangel wrote: ohhh they're actually suing them for damages, I just thought they were filing an injunction to prevent them from broadcasting
that changes a lot of things. i wasn't aware of this either.
On January 28 2011 15:46 Seraphic wrote: lol...what they are forcing them to go to SC2? You kidding me? I am neutral on this whole part but that part of the article made me laugh. Blizzard has no power, or the rights to force anyone to switch over to Starcraft 2. Don't over step the boundaries Blizzard, give me a f-ing break.
Don't you step over the boundaries of what is actually known about the contract. It only says that there was a passage mentioning it, not how it was mentioned and which contract they were talking about (i.e. the one between Blizzard and Gretech or future ones involving OGN and MBC). Please be reasonable.
Yeah the switching to sc2 thing is pretty ridiculous, I would be shocked if that is left intact in the judge's ruling. In my mind the most likely outcome is a fine for ogn/mbc and the requirement that they pay a seasonal fee to gretech/blizzard (neither as much money as blizzard would want), but are still allowed to cast sc1.
On January 28 2011 15:46 Seraphic wrote: lol...what they are forcing them to go to SC2? You kidding me? I am neutral on this whole part but that part of the article made me laugh. Blizzard has no power, or the rights to force anyone to switch over to Starcraft 2. Don't over step the boundaries Blizzard, give me a f-ing break.
HEY HEY!!!!!RELAX!!!!!
there seems to be some confusion even in the translation.(no i'm not rapping it just sounds that way :D)
The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
so there goes the argument that Blizzard just wants their IP rights recognized and isn't out to kill Brood War progaming
On January 28 2011 15:46 Seraphic wrote: lol...what they are forcing them to go to SC2? You kidding me? I am neutral on this whole part but that part of the article made me laugh. Blizzard has no power, or the rights to force anyone to switch over to Starcraft 2. Don't over step the boundaries Blizzard, give me a f-ing break.
HEY HEY!!!!!RELAX!!!!!
there seems to be some confusion even in the translation.(no i'm not rapping it just sounds that way :D)
On January 28 2011 15:42 Waxangel wrote: ohhh they're actually suing them for damages, I just thought they were filing an injunction to prevent them from broadcasting
Doesn't change the essential fact that someone will win and someone will lose, and what we know about the aftermath of either outcome is essentially the same as fans and consumers.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
that little excerpt will probably be the main focus for the entire topic -_-. I noticed they pointed out the english contract. Is there not a korean one?
On January 28 2011 16:06 TheHunksta wrote: Wow, I had no clue that Blizz was trying to force OGN/MBC to force switch to SC2....fucking hell no wonder they didn't budge o.o
This story is such a back n forth on who's side to be on, this is absolutely unreal.
Wow if that's true I'd like to see Blizz micro their way out of that one. MBC's early game scouting has revealed an attempt at cheesy play. ^_^
On January 28 2011 16:06 TheHunksta wrote: Wow, I had no clue that Blizz was trying to force OGN/MBC to force switch to SC2....fucking hell no wonder they didn't budge o.o
This story is such a back n forth on who's side to be on, this is absolutely unreal.
Wow if that's true I'd like to see Blizz micro their way out of that one. MBC's early game scouting has revealed an attempt at cheesy play. ^_^
I honestly doubt that the transition thing from BW to SC2 will even be remotely considered by the judge. Pretty funny that Blizzard thinks it can get away with that suggestion.
I reworded the SC/SC2 transition line and made it more conservative after rereading that line in korean a few times.
On January 28 2011 16:07 jaiBing wrote: i would like to know how the korean community are taking this news
nothing new, although only ThisisGame, which has a much smaller community contained actual details regarding the trial, so there isn't many comments. The Fomos article was just filled with people laughing about how long this is taking and how they can get like a few more seasons in while they stretch it out.
I noticed they pointed out the english contract. Is there not a korean one?
It's likely they only showed MBC/OGN the korean contract and not the english one until this.
edit: translation has gotten a lot better since commenting on this, no need for my explanation to be left in as I appear to have not fully understood what was happening with the "transition" part of the trial.
These articles just bring up the same old SC:BW vs SC2 arguments again and again and again.
Honestly, I'd love for MBCGame just to pony up some trivial amount (trivial in relation to their total budget, not trivial in relation to the average human being) and for BW and SC2 to go on as usual. It seems like both sides are trying way too hard to see how far the other will go.
On January 28 2011 16:24 DeckOneBell wrote: Honestly, I'd love for MBCGame just to pony up some trivial amount (trivial in relation to their total budget, not trivial in relation to the average human being) and for BW and SC2 to go on as usual. It seems like both sides are trying way too hard to see how far the other will go.
It's somewhat standard that you go to court and purposely over/under state things like damages in an effort to make sure you at least get the actual amount you want. Not that different from haggling really.
At the risk of sounding generic.... Blizzard is either just trolling us hard or being a stubborn lady that refuses to do anything other than asking for money.
Like I said before, this lawsuit is so unnecessary. What first was thought to be an injunction to stop broadcasting has become merely a suit for damages, and what is next? The longer this drags on, the more face Blizzard has to lose. Meanwhile, we get to enjoy several more seasons of BW (and SC2 - but quoted in my words, "if it gets better").
A transition to SC2... give me a break. I know that may not have been the exact wording on the contract, but even a fool could see their intention. So much effort has been put into the OSL & MSL, so OGN/MBC, hold your heads high and we will always support you! =3
On January 28 2011 16:06 TheHunksta wrote: Wow, I had no clue that Blizz was trying to force OGN/MBC to force switch to SC2....fucking hell no wonder they didn't budge o.o
This story is such a back n forth on who's side to be on, this is absolutely unreal.
Well the article did say that they want blizzard to elaborate on that point. The term transition can be interpreted in a few ways. Its possible they just want them to incorporate SC2 into their broadcasting (not necessarily remove BW).
I was acctually wondering if "The Transition" that was included in the english was just about how blizzard was going to transition into SC2 themselves and not focus on BW ... but then I thought that did not make any sense.
On January 28 2011 16:06 TheHunksta wrote: Wow, I had no clue that Blizz was trying to force OGN/MBC to force switch to SC2....fucking hell no wonder they didn't budge o.o
This story is such a back n forth on who's side to be on, this is absolutely unreal.
Well the article did say that they want blizzard to elaborate on that point. The term transition can be interpreted in a few ways. Its possible they just want them to incorporate SC2 into their broadcasting (not necessarily remove BW).
Reason is not allowed in Blizzard vs KeSPA type of threads.
On January 28 2011 16:06 TheHunksta wrote: Wow, I had no clue that Blizz was trying to force OGN/MBC to force switch to SC2....fucking hell no wonder they didn't budge o.o
This story is such a back n forth on who's side to be on, this is absolutely unreal.
Well the article did say that they want blizzard to elaborate on that point. The term transition can be interpreted in a few ways. Its possible they just want them to incorporate SC2 into their broadcasting (not necessarily remove BW).
The korean word i translated as "Transition" can also be conservatively translated as "Switch over"/change etc.
Well props for gretech for getting the rights properly. I don't blame Blizzard for being a little annoyed about SC2 being shown on TV for profit (to OGN and MBCgame), but dude, they need to get over that asap and strike a deal to promote that on tv. That or gretech's going to be getting a heck of a lot more ad revenue, like, fast.
Also, they're sueing for 350,000,000won?? Thats only $350,000, probably chump change to those big companies. Thats like 1/25,000th of one month of their WOW income revenue.
Either way i hope the outcome = more sc2 playing on the screen on the treadmill at my gym in korea lol
I wish both sides would gather all things & make all requests at once so it's not delayed another fucking 2 months every time. I swear, there's gonna be stuff brought up in the 3rd case that very well could have been brought up today just to delay it more. I realize it's the nature of court cases, but I just hope Blizz has the patience not to ask for an injunction to stop broadcasting until the lawsuit is over in response to constant delays. Then we'd all be boned the longer it takes.
On January 28 2011 17:47 aimaimaim wrote: srsly .. what damages?
terrible terrible damage!
lol I know it's just how this law stuff works, but I think its ridiculous that Blizzard can somehow claim they were damaged by Starcraft being broadcasted on TV.
Let's forget about the fact that every man woman and children has heard of Starcraft in Korea.
I wish both sides would gather all things & make all requests at once so it's not delayed another fucking 2 months every time. I swear, there's gonna be stuff brought up in the 3rd case that very well could have been brought up today just to delay it more. I realize it's the nature of court cases, but I just hope Blizz has the patience not to ask for an injunction to stop broadcasting until the lawsuit is over in response to constant delays. Then we'd all be boned the longer it takes.
No, this is good. The longer they drag it out, the longer we can watch BW without fucking Blizzard interference.
Looks like MBC/OGN are challenging *everything* from whether Gretech has rights to sue to whether they even infringed on any copyrights. GOGOGOGOGO
On January 28 2011 16:57 prodikl wrote: Well props for gretech for getting the rights properly. I don't blame Blizzard for being a little annoyed about SC2 being shown on TV for profit (to OGN and MBCgame), but dude, they need to get over that asap and strike a deal to promote that on tv. That or gretech's going to be getting a heck of a lot more ad revenue, like, fast.
Good to know that you have no idea what they talk about... Its about SC1 not SC2...
also
Milkis wrote: The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages.
Rather interesting part. I wonder how would they calculate damages? Will it be the lost broadcasting fees from the start of SC1? Or from the time of Gretech Blizzard deal? It would be rather interesting if MBC and OGN would ask for blizzard to give out information about its sales of SC1 in korea (not the highly manipulated number Blizzard said in one of the interviews) so they can compare it with their time of broadcasts and if it influenced it or not. and another also..
Milkis wrote: The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
and
Milkis wrote: ...judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related...
Kind of like it. Looks like the judge has a backbone compared to the US judges and we will finally have some non-controversial verdict regarding IP rights. The part i dont like it is the second part. Asking for a American IP precedence cases is rather bad. I think most people heard about some rather hilarious verdicts of American courts regarding IP rights... not to mention that some of those verdicts were announced by judges that were miss-informed by persecuting layers...
Milkis wrote: The defendants also pointed out that the English contracts included an article about a transition [4] from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
If it is true than this would be a nail to the coffin of this case (not talking about fan rage here). It would mean that there are differences between a contract in english and korean which should be exactly the same (since either english or korean version should be translation of the other one). If it was true judge could dismiss the whole case due to illegality of such a contract cause this wouldnt be a simple translation error in contract but omitting a part of contract in the translated version.
Oh im neither die hard SC2 or SC1 fanatic. I absolutely enjoy low number engagement in SC2 but hate 200/200 army fights (prefer them in BW)
Milkis wrote: The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages.
Rather interesting part. I wonder how would they calculate damages? Will it be the lost broadcasting fees from the start of SC1? Or from the time of Gretech Blizzard deal? It would be rather interesting if MBC and OGN would ask for blizzard to give out information about its sales of SC1 in korea (not the highly manipulated number Blizzard said in one of the interviews) so they can compare it with their time of broadcasts and if it influenced it or not. and another also..
Blizzard Gretech already requested 350,000,000 won, which honestly isn't THAT much. My guess from the original article is that MBC requested to see why Blizzard wants be involved when they sold the rights to Gretech.
Milkis wrote: ...judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related...
Kind of like it. Looks like the judge has a backbone compared to the US judges and we will finally have some non-controversial verdict regarding IP rights. The part i dont like it is the second part. Asking for a American IP precedence cases is rather bad. I think most people heard about some rather hilarious verdicts of American courts regarding IP rights... not to mention that some of those verdicts were announced by judges that were miss-informed by persecuting layers...
I'm pretty sure this is just for reference, Korea uses civil law, not common law. Precedents have little meanings on judge's decision.
Well, there already is precedent in the previous Blizzard vs KeSPA case where Blizzard lost. Now Blizzard is using a proxy to do their bidding but looks like it's not going well for them.
On a related note, an article posted after the litigation one on FOMOS:
Some BS about a video interview with Dustin "WHAT'S COOOOOOOOL" Browden on new mini-games for SC2... [SC2 articles not worth translating...]
The most interesting part of this article are the replies. To paraphrase most of them:
[LOLwut?] [FAIL] [FIX THE F*CKING GAME FIRST] [Desperation!!!!] [SC2 FAILED GAME. AHAHAHHAHAHA!!!...]
Funny how FOMOS started very enthusiastic about SC2 but now has turned extreme anti. The only place left pro-SC2 in Korea is playXP. Slowly but surely that place is turning too. Bad game is just bad.
Although Daily esports hates blizzard, apparently "transition" was the right word to use. According to this article, Blizzard and Gretech has been actively trying to shut down SC1 league in order to make SC2 leagues.
EDIT: It's probably really one-sided story, Daily esports has been known to support Kespa, but interesting development regardless.
Although Daily esports hates blizzard, apparently "transition" was the right word to use. According to this article, Blizzard and Gretech has been actively trying to shut down SC1 league in order to make SC2 leagues.
EDIT: It's probably really one-sided story, Daily esports has been known to support Kespa, but interesting development regardless.
If it's clearly biased you can better not post it, it will only end up in a flame war towards Blizzard anyway.
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Although Daily esports hates blizzard, apparently "transition" was the right word to use. According to this article, Blizzard and Gretech has been actively trying to shut down SC1 league in order to make SC2 leagues.
EDIT: It's probably really one-sided story, Daily esports has been known to support Kespa, but interesting development regardless.
If it's clearly biased you can better not post it, it will only end up in a flame war towards Blizzard anyway.
I read it. Not biased at all. The only thing that can be construed "biased" in the article is it links the previous unreasonable demands made by Gretech in their negotiations with OGN/MBC with the "transition" clause in the Gretech-Blizzard contract.
It also repeats the OGN/MBC position that, 1. Gretech has no right to sue for damages before they signed the Blizzard-Gretech contract last May. 2. Since Blizzard-Gretech never planned a SC/BW league or competition, they have no grounds for damages because SC/BW doesn't compete directly with GSL.
From the article on Daily e-Sports, the English wording in the contract: Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play.
Milkis wrote: The defendants also pointed out that the English contracts included an article about a transition [4] from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
If it is true than this would be a nail to the coffin of this case (not talking about fan rage here). It would mean that there are differences between a contract in english and korean which should be exactly the same (since either english or korean version should be translation of the other one). If it was true judge could dismiss the whole case due to illegality of such a contract cause this wouldnt be a simple translation error in contract but omitting a part of contract in the translated version. [/QUOTE]
I didn't study international private law that much, but i wouldn't be surprise if contracts usually give one language of reference if an issue appears which could be interpreted on different ways. You're never sure having a perfect translation, almost every treaties and decisions of the UN have this kind of problems (for exemple on UN security council resolutions on israeli colonies, it is written that they have to go back "from territories" in english, which can mean from all territories or just some of them, whereas in french the resolution says clearly from all territories -"des territoires"-, just an exemple, i'm not arguing any point there). I'm pretty sure businessmen try to avoid this kind of interpretation problem, and put the english contract as the one to be read in courts. I don't have time to look for it however, and i'm not sure.
Although Daily esports hates blizzard, apparently "transition" was the right word to use. According to this article, Blizzard and Gretech has been actively trying to shut down SC1 league in order to make SC2 leagues.
EDIT: It's probably really one-sided story, Daily esports has been known to support Kespa, but interesting development regardless.
If it's clearly biased you can better not post it, it will only end up in a flame war towards Blizzard anyway.
I read it. Not biased at all. The only thing that can be construed "biased" in the article is it links the previous unreasonable demands made by Gretech in their negotiations with OGN/MBC with the "transition" clause in the Gretech-Blizzard contract.
It also repeats the OGN/MBC position that, 1. Gretech has no right to sue for damages before they signed the Blizzard-Gretech contract last May. 2. Since Blizzard-Gretech never planned a SC/BW league or competition, they have no grounds for damages because SC/BW doesn't compete directly with GSL.
From the article on Daily e-Sports, the English wording in the contract: Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play.
Well what's bias about it is that like you said, the article blatantly assumes that Gretech is actively trying to hinder OGN/MBC's SC1 broadcast by making unreasonable demands, which was position reported by KeSPA but not confirmed by Blizzard.
Although Daily esports hates blizzard, apparently "transition" was the right word to use. According to this article, Blizzard and Gretech has been actively trying to shut down SC1 league in order to make SC2 leagues.
EDIT: It's probably really one-sided story, Daily esports has been known to support Kespa, but interesting development regardless.
If it's clearly biased you can better not post it, it will only end up in a flame war towards Blizzard anyway.
I read it. Not biased at all. The only thing that can be construed "biased" in the article is it links the previous unreasonable demands made by Gretech in their negotiations with OGN/MBC with the "transition" clause in the Gretech-Blizzard contract.
It also repeats the OGN/MBC position that, 1. Gretech has no right to sue for damages before they signed the Blizzard-Gretech contract last May. 2. Since Blizzard-Gretech never planned a SC/BW league or competition, they have no grounds for damages because SC/BW doesn't compete directly with GSL.
From the article on Daily e-Sports, the English wording in the contract: Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play.
Well what's bias about it is that like you said, the article blatantly assumes that Gretech is actively trying to hinder OGN/MBC's SC1 broadcast by making unreasonable demands, which was position reported by KeSPA but not confirmed by Blizzard.
Also the tone of the article is openly hostile.
from what i recall wasn't gom/mbc or ogn doing negotiations awhile back one of the main points of interest was what time proleague was aired? gom wanted that slot. pushing proleague to another timeslot?
Courtroom drama at it's best, but it pisses me off it's come to this. I'm just wondering why Blizzard is suddenly so interested in this IP rights violation stuff? Just trying to force SC2 on everyone and destroy BW while at it?
On January 28 2011 16:57 prodikl wrote: Well props for gretech for getting the rights properly. I don't blame Blizzard for being a little annoyed about SC2 being shown on TV for profit (to OGN and MBCgame), but dude, they need to get over that asap and strike a deal to promote that on tv. That or gretech's going to be getting a heck of a lot more ad revenue, like, fast.
Also, they're sueing for 350,000,000won?? Thats only $350,000, probably chump change to those big companies. Thats like 1/25,000th of one month of their WOW income revenue.
Either way i hope the outcome = more sc2 playing on the screen on the treadmill at my gym in korea lol
On January 28 2011 17:02 SmoKim wrote: can't they just smoke a joint or something and get along ?
No sir, you WILL play sc2 and you WILL enjoy it...or else.
this actually made me giggle
*****
in the end of the day, we now have until march for the next trial. as someone said, that will allow for atleast one 2011 OSL/MSL season, which is good.
in the grand scheme of e-sports, i personally feel that blizzard is making a terrible mistake at trying to hurt such a sensitive industry. however, this does not make kespa a saint either. please do not quote me, but i know for a fact that kespa tried their hardest to ban and tax sc2, and threaten progamers to stick/renew their contracts with bw gaming teams, otherwise there will be consequences (not quoted, once again). the typical kespa communist state.
neither party is a saint, nor a villain. both are being selfish. notice how the judge said in the first meeting if there was a way both parties could come to a negotiation? they refused because they are stubborn and want to prove a point. this case does nothing but hurt the fans in the end of the day.
blizzard's original suit against IP right violation made perfect sense to me; royalty fees can and should be distributed for content of such nature (in my opinion; please don't be offended from my thoughts). however, i agree with kespa's argument that went along the lines of "you don't pay a soccer ball company royalty fees to kick a soccer ball on a soccer field". the entire case is fucked. we have no clue what is truly going on, and to be blunt, i don't think blizzard does anymore either. i think the first trial was a definite boost for blizzard, and now the second trial is a definite boost for kespa.
we can just wait and see what happens. here is my final verdict and feeling on what blizzard should do if they are truly out just to push sc2, instead of kill bw (i am neutral and dont want to comment on if its true or not):
1) end this case immediately. they are wasting more time and money, and just making bw more notorious and infamous, which is hurting their principle argument. if it is IP right violation that they seek reparations for, they should have negotiated in the first case, or at least not transitioned into "damages", which are far harder to prove.
2) step up your funding and support for GOMtv. i know that you already are sinking tens of millions of dollars (probably) into Gretech, but it needs more. if you seriously are that adamant about wanting sc2 to become THE e-sport of the world, commit yourself 100%; make GOMtv an actual cable television channel similar to OnGameNet and MBCGame. give them more money to get an advertising and marketing campaign on social networking sites, instead of having nick and dan beg us to tweet and change our statuses (i love them, they are my best friends), create qualifyers internationally, and not just domestically in korea, encourage and fund foreign progame teams to make houses in korea (EG, ROOT, MYM, etc). if you want to make such a big deal out of this case, you better be willing to spend every dime you have to do it right.
best of luck to whichever party wants to preserve esports. because at this point, both of them are failing to respect the game in my opinion.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
This is just hilarious. It's even worse than I thought.
Blizz/greetech sue MBC/OGN for damages is insane, I belive MBC/OGN made alot profit for blizz making BW so popular. I will have to read the BW EULA, to check if there is clause which forbid broadcasting. If there is no such clause blizzard are pretty much screwed.And all this trial is only gettin more and more anger at blizzard/gretech/sc2 in korea.
This is like you are football fan then someone come and want everyone to stop playing football becouse they want everyone to play hockey and not football.Yes blizzard own IP rights of SC:BW. But they only restrict distribution of the IP. Broadcasting doesn't realy violate any IP law.
If we compare the IP rights of computer game to music industry: If you are musician who use software like Fruity Loops to produce music, you own the IP rights of the song you produced,you are violating the IP rights of FL if you didn't buy the software.
If you are gamer that play starcraft and you produce games, you own the IP rights of this games, and you are violating IP rights if the game copy was unlicensed.
This are how things stand. This is the reason why SC2 EULA has statements that claim all content,replay/games/maps are property of Blizzard. I hope after Blizzard lose the trial against MBC/OGN. MBC/OGN sue them for damages due to blizzard claims.Then I hope New blizzard EULA get attacked in EU/KR and US courts. Becouse Blizzard is violating human rights. They may create the tools but they can't claim all the content created by other people that used their tools. Imagine if Microsoft claim that every book written in MS World i Intelectual propery of Microsoft. Or every video edited with Adobe Premier is owned by Adobe.
So consider all this when you are wondering which side to pick. Becouse all that blizzard is doing is selfish and greedy. And it is against what we as community want. We want esports to grow, blizzard don't want esport to grow blizzard want to own esports.
I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Milkis wrote: The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages.
Rather interesting part. I wonder how would they calculate damages? Will it be the lost broadcasting fees from the start of SC1? Or from the time of Gretech Blizzard deal? It would be rather interesting if MBC and OGN would ask for blizzard to give out information about its sales of SC1 in korea (not the highly manipulated number Blizzard said in one of the interviews) so they can compare it with their time of broadcasts and if it influenced it or not. and another also..
Blizzard Gretech already requested 350,000,000 won, which honestly isn't THAT much. My guess from the original article is that MBC requested to see why Blizzard wants be involved when they sold the rights to Gretech.
Milkis wrote: The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
and
Milkis wrote: ...judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related...
Kind of like it. Looks like the judge has a backbone compared to the US judges and we will finally have some non-controversial verdict regarding IP rights. The part i dont like it is the second part. Asking for a American IP precedence cases is rather bad. I think most people heard about some rather hilarious verdicts of American courts regarding IP rights... not to mention that some of those verdicts were announced by judges that were miss-informed by persecuting layers...
I'm pretty sure this is just for reference, Korea uses civil law, not common law. Precedents have little meanings on judge's decision.
Even if they have a civil law system (had no idea) its not uncommon to ask for precedents when theres a case like this. Its non unheard at all in a civil law system for the parts to presents sentences (jurisprudence) from the higher courts. Its only used an argument though and its not bonding for the judge. What i find interesting is that in this case it was the judge the one who took the initiative and asked for it.
In my country for instance (civil law system) its quite common for lawyers to present foreign jurisprudence when the case is about laws that have been adapted/based from other countries which tends to happen in pretty much any case regarding "new technologies".
If there is a time to enter, there is a time to leave. If there is a time to stand up, there is a time to sit down. If there is a time to rise up, there is a time to fall down. If there is a time to begin, there is a time to end. Nobody can rule the world forever. Blizzard, I am disappointed in you. Your golden age that fascinated the entire gaming world surely seems to have passed.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making giant demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are.
KeSPA officials said that blizzard broke off the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed because they wanted everything to coincide with the release of the game (which implies they wanted OGN/MBC to switch to sc2) and they also publish the ridiculous list of blizzard's demands.
Blizzard then made a conference to deal with KeSPA's breaking the NDA (the above), and they declined neither of the claims made by KeSPA.
If KeSPA lied to us, then blizzard would've certainly said so.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are.
KeSPA officials said that blizzard broke off the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed because they wanted everything to coincide with the release of the game (which implies they wanted OGN/MBC to switch to sc2) and they also publish the ridiculous list of blizzard's demands.
Blizzard then made a conference to deal with KeSPA's breaking the NDA (the above), and they declined neither of the claims made by KeSPA.
If KeSPA lied to us, then blizzard would've certainly said so.
All of this is PR from both sides after the hostilities started. People make way too many inferences from incomplete information. I really have no comment to this, because I haven't seen a single non heavily anti-Bliz post from you in any of the threads on this topic. At this point however, I do agree that this lawsuit is pretty much worthless.
If Blizzard can't collect royalties for the use of their product by Korean companies to generate revenue, then why would they care about (Korean) e-sports?
Blizzard is in the buisness of making money, not producing free content. Seems to me that if this ruling goes against Blizzard, they'll likely start focusing more on subscribtion based games. This case would make it extremely difficult for them to make a good return on their investments into the SC scene.
I guess i just don't really understand the additude that Blizzard should get absolutly nothing for the use of SC. If Blizzard gets a cut of the profits then that provides an incentive for Blizzard to continue to make and improve their games. Plus it seems to me that there is an element of fairness in a ruling for Blizzard.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are.
KeSPA officials said that blizzard broke off the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed because they wanted everything to coincide with the release of the game (which implies they wanted OGN/MBC to switch to sc2) and they also publish the ridiculous list of blizzard's demands.
Blizzard then made a conference to deal with KeSPA's breaking the NDA (the above), and they declined neither of the claims made by KeSPA.
If KeSPA lied to us, then blizzard would've certainly said so.
All of this is PR from both sides after the hostilities started. People make way too many inferences from incomplete information. I really have no comment to this, because I haven't seen a single non heavily anti-Bliz post from you in any of the threads on this topic. At this point however, I do agree that this lawsuit is pretty much worthless.
How are my posts "anti-blizzard"? It's true that I hate blizzard for what they're doing and sc2 has been a large disappointment for me, but I have never made any baseless claims, so there's nothing "anti-blizzard" in my posts.
And like I said, blizzard made a media conference dedicated specifically to handle the NDA breaking. If anything KeSPA claimed regarding the negotiations was false, blizzard would've ripped it to shreds.
On January 28 2011 22:55 BobbyT wrote: If Blizzard can't collect royalties for the use of their product by Korean companies to generate revenue, then why would they care about (Korean) e-sports?
Blizzard is in the buisness of making money, not producing free content. Seems to me that if this ruling goes against Blizzard, they'll likely start focusing more on subscribtion based games. This case would make it extremely difficult for them to make a good return on their investments into the SC scene.
I guess i just don't really understand the additude that Blizzard should get absolutly nothing for the use of SC. If Blizzard gets a cut of the profits then that provides an incentive for Blizzard to continue to make and improve their games. Plus it seems to me that there is an element of fairness in a ruling for Blizzard.
Blizzard didn't just want some royalties (which OGN/MBC agreed to pay). They demanded the control over the whole scene (teams, players, broadcasts, etc.).
On January 28 2011 16:37 GG_NO_RE wrote: oh yeah, blizz sure loves sc1 and has no hopes of crushing it into oblivious.
give me a fuckin break
It's so sad to see so much people crying at a Blizzard conspiration to destroy BW. Common...
Blizzard doesnt want harm to any of their games, Im pretty sure they are very happy with BW succeeding. If there is an evil behind it, it should be Activision and Kotick.
Seriously there has to be something not right?Could you really think that Gretech and Blizzard's law departments and the chaebol lawyers are so bad to miss something that big that could cause a PR outrage?
On January 28 2011 23:42 BLinD-RawR wrote: Seriously there has to be something not right?Could you really think that Gretech and Blizzard's law departments and the chaebol lawyers are so bad to miss something that big that could cause a PR outrage?
Something's not right.....
The terms of the contract were technically under NDA. They weren't supposed to become public in the first place.
On January 28 2011 22:55 BobbyT wrote: If Blizzard can't collect royalties for the use of their product by Korean companies to generate revenue, then why would they care about (Korean) e-sports?
Blizzard is in the buisness of making money, not producing free content. Seems to me that if this ruling goes against Blizzard, they'll likely start focusing more on subscribtion based games. This case would make it extremely difficult for them to make a good return on their investments into the SC scene.
I guess i just don't really understand the additude that Blizzard should get absolutly nothing for the use of SC. If Blizzard gets a cut of the profits then that provides an incentive for Blizzard to continue to make and improve their games. Plus it seems to me that there is an element of fairness in a ruling for Blizzard.
Blizzard didn't want to collect any royalties back in 2001 nor they sponsor any tournament or anything in korea. Just find statistic how many SC:BW copies were sold in korea(StarCraft sold over 9.5 million copies across the globe, with 4.5 million of these being sold in South Korea quote from wikipedia). This isn't royalties?
Blizzard get money for selling the game. Blizzard didn't develop anything for BW for alot of years. Blizzard got paid for what they have done,and the price they asked for a copy of BW.
Why they should not get cut of the profits? Did they create the maps that are popular and being played and broadcasted? Do Blizzard pay wages to the players,teams,tournament organisation teams,comentators and other people involved? Do they advertise this tournaments ?
Blizzard never care about esport they start to care after KeSPA,MBC,OGN developed this from scratch and Blizzard just want to take it over. I would be happy to see Blizzard developing esport scene back in 2001 outside korea and then claim IP rights back then. Not now when SC2 is released and they want to takeover all the player base and all the fan base.
Blizzard developed great game. This game made blizzard what it is now but, I feel they forgot where they start from, and what made Blizzard sucessfull.
On January 28 2011 17:47 aimaimaim wrote: srsly .. what damages?
terrible terrible damage!
ROFLOL!
Thanks a lot for the translation, Milkis. <3
To me it kinda seems like OGN/MBC have Blizzard right by the balls. At the very least they certainly have their work cut out for them to win this court case.
I actually feel like the DES bit makes Blizzard look better than the ambiguous wording that was there before. It doesn't look malicious, but that may just be the idealist in me speaking.
The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I wonder what would happen if OGN/MBC simply decided to drop all BW tourneys... I understand that Blizzard have rights to all the showing StarCraft had without compensation to them, but what would StarCraft actually be without the organization of those specific people that made it so? I imagine it would still be popular, but not the same...
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
Well this pretty much means that the case from this point on is pretty much a slam dunk for KeSPA's side.
Do you guys know what's weird tomorrow is supposed to be a day when both BW fans and SC2 fans get together for a OSL and GSL grand finals party. It's just sad and I hope both communities get along with each other because of this
It's kind of strange to me if that argument works in Korean courts. It doesn't seem like "Well, you weren't using it..." would pass for an argument against someone claiming their IP in an American court.
It's also kind of strange to me that Blizzard said that they couldn't discuss it in the middle of a lawsuit when the language looks like it gives them plenty of leeway wrt what they mean by making a smooth transition, at least in the translation. The way I read it, it COULD mean that all they want is for the companies involved not to inhibit anyone from switching from SC1 to SC2, with an assumption that players would indeed switch over of their own accord. It could also mean "get your shit together for the SC2 league". I think Blizzard in the past has expressed specifically that they don't want to kill Brood War, and I'd rather not assume that they want to, but who knows?
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
That's pretty hilarious.
Pretty sad if you ask me, seems like Blizzard is actively trying to kill off SCBW.... This is sickening.
Man instead of arguing about it, we should really start a Dear Blizzard. If everyone just emailed blizzard, or if there was enough backlash in blog posting ect, you could get te hstory picked up on red it, digg, ect, maybe even cable news. The point being we should say something do something about it.
I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
That's pretty hilarious.
Pretty sad if you ask me, seems like Blizzard is actively trying to kill off SCBW.... This is sickening.
It's only sickening because you believe that it's true.
I don't believe it is true because they said that that they won't kill ofBW just like that.....unfortunately they have no choice but to stick to their word for the community even it they have no intention of doing so.....
Either way Blizzard is pretty much screwed......they should just drop the case and try fixing their own isssues so that we can start trusting them as we have come to trust in KeSPA
From what is seen from this article, the transition to SC2 is for the programs of the exclusive partner, Gretech, not the side-partners, if MBC/OGN become such.
No worries the whole things' goal is to prevent the strong BW infrastructure in korea to suppress SC2 developement, and no matter who the winner is, it has been achieved.
So this sounds like a 2nd preliminary hearing where they are sorting out the expectations of each party and to get a clear and definite definition of what is being argued. The real stuff will come in the next session or 2.
On January 28 2011 15:42 Waxangel wrote: ohhh they're actually suing them for damages, I just thought they were filing an injunction to prevent them from broadcasting
I may be mistaken, but I think by giving Blizzard as much money as they are suing for in a winning lawsuit, it would only open the doors for Blizzard to sue again if the league progresses.
Similar to how courts in America can win cases by referring to previous similar judgments, would they not be entitled to sue again and again and again and again so long as SC1 tournaments are held (effectively shutting them down, injunction or not.)
As I said, could be mistaken. Throwing this question out there for someone smarter to answer.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post.
First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think
Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
it would be ogn/mbc being greedy not kespa, kespa is non profit. But in reality what this is all ab is really blizzard trying to cash in on the esports cow. For years sc bw was built up by non blizzard entities, so much so that blizzard can not actually enter the market for there own game. If blizzard tried to be a competitor of ogn or mbc, in korea theyd fail as hard as Gom did. So realizing this they simply enetered the market the only way they could with out simply being a small player with mbc and ogn, they sued their way in. Under the mask of IP rights, they have basically stopped ogn and mbc from created sc2 leagues, or sc2 pro teams, now blizzard can step in an attempt to fill that void. IMO they dont understand what made sc bw big, or how to run an e-sport, as seen from theyre handling of sc2 so far, but thats not the point, what is the point is they have now put themselves in a position to be a major player, an option they didnt have before, Of course this law suite is worthless, they know that. They were at best hoping to get lucky.
But ask yourself this, if blizzard had never sued kespa, what sc2 league would we be watching? If kespa had gone unhindered, we would probably already see pro teams for sc2, or sc2 divisions for all major teams. But the attack on scbw forced ogn and mbcs hand, they had to ensure theyre cashf low remained uninterrupted, so they had to ensure that players and fans werent leaving broodwar, which is why we saw all the taxes, lack of pro gamer switching or even statements about sc2 by anyone (progamer, coach ect), besides sparse comments. You have to think that big names, the top players have all thought, man I bet i could destroy kids in sc2. Blizzard controls the creativity of it too. They host the maps, choose the map pool, and all but killed any ums settings they dont sponsor, because they want to be major players. No sc2 tournament will feature non blizz maps, no ums will become dota.
Its all a game, now no matter what happens, Gsl is the largest sc2 tourney out there, and blizzard is in. Whether or not they kill bw is inconsequential, because I think blizzard just wants to run sc2, because they want to be kespa and theyre forcing their way in. Because if they didn't the best they could hope for would be some third rate cut, or ad deals, from ogn and mbc and they dream bigger than that. Thats all this ip bs is about, they dont care if they lose at this point because they think theyve won. Who knows, I honestly beleive they dont understand the industry enough to keep the organization alive, but then again its blizzard, one of those talented kids will figure it out.
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote: - The defendants also pointed out that in the English contracts included an article saying that there be a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2, and requested that the prosecution explain themselves. The judges also ordered that this happen.
That's pretty hilarious.
Pretty sad if you ask me, seems like Blizzard is actively trying to kill off SCBW.... This is sickening.
It's only sickening because you believe that it's true.
I don't believe it is true because they said that that they won't kill ofBW just like that.....unfortunately they have no choice but to stick to their word for the community even it they have no intention of doing so.....
Either way Blizzard is pretty much screwed......they should just drop the case and try fixing their own isssues so that we can start trusting them as we have come to trust in KeSPA
It's true to a certain extent regardless. That's why they're not updating SCBW so it works well on Windows 7 and such.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
I agree that people are overreacting.
A clause requesting Gretech to make the "transition" smooth can refer to many different things. So far they've helped any pro-gamer who switched from SC1 to SC2 and accepted them with open arms, rather than ban them. There are some people here assuming it means the goal is to kill BW but the other possibilities are far too easily overlooked. I don't see anything about forcing the transition, only making it smooth.
I certainly don't think it's "100% proof Blizzard wants to kill BW" as many keep preaching. It's pretty lame that people are eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find. The entire thing has never been black & white but to most BW elitists- if it fucks with BW it can go to hell.
When it comes to Blizz vs BW stuff people jump on the BW side far too fast and promote explanations that may not even be true. Remember, Daily e-Sports was the journalist outlet that slandered and attempted to tarnish NaDa's name for switching. It's hard to take anything they say without a big chunk of salt.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post.
First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think
Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made.
The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts.
Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations.
Well , blizzard is a multinational ... Koreans almost play for themselves only , SC1 foreign players always said they were treated poorly in Korea .. Blizzard doesnt want a Korean e-sport in SC2 they want an international e-sport and i agree with them..
Blizzard doesnt want to kill BW scene , they just want to make it small compared to the SC2 scene. Again i agree with this.. BW isnt poker , outside of Korea almost nobody knows or sees BW.. Kids that join RTS games nowadays don´t want SC1 , they want SC2 ..
The people i see here complain about blizzard , must understand that SC2 has a very big future ahead and BW doesnt , the BW community will get smaller not bigger.. And other thing Blizzard made the best games i´ve played Diablo 1 was the bomb , SC1 also and SC2 is a nuclear one ... So thank them , don´t insult a company that has given you happy feelings after you bought their products..
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post.
First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think
Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made.
The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts.
Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations.
Did kespa also say why they didn't progress? And why don't you question kespa while you do question anything blizzard does. I don't know a whole lot about this but what I do know is that negotiations come from 2 sides and when they stagnate it comes from both sides and not one.
On January 28 2011 21:42 moopie wrote: I think Blizzard is digging itself deeper into the hole by pursuing this (and suing for damages??). Even if they win, they alienate a huge fanbase in the country that made their Starcraft franchise huge. They can also forget about ever getting their GSL on TV (at least without a 3rd channel from an independent company). Winning this still alienates them, and will (could) lead to the downfall of the SC2 community in Korea.
On January 28 2011 19:02 NHY wrote: Actual wording according to the article:
Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms [sic] available for play.
Wow... just wow.
It doesn't matter what they do at this point. When they did try to get GSL on TV, KeSPA pressured the broadcasting stations to pull out or suffer severe consequences.
Blizzard 'failed' in this regard only because of the way they went about it. Because the power they had (or thought they had) they went into the SC2 launch with both guns blazing, making demands of KeSPA and the broadcasting companies in a "my way or the highway" approach. Had they sought out to work with the existing korean scene on this instead of trying to capitalize on its succeess and try to smother it to get it out of the way there could have been a very civil co-existance and eventual transition.
As of now, staying in this fight is bad PR and hurts their playerbase. The best they could do is modify their unreasonable demands, stop trying to kill off the competition, and then get back to being a game developer which is what they are good at.
True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are.
Maybe i'm biased but i feel it's Blizzard are the ones who would be breaking negotiatations. It's not like KeSPA couldn't theoretically gain from a new game to run too. I have a feeling that all proteams would already have SC2 divisions and leagues would be set up if left to them.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
it would be ogn/mbc being greedy not kespa, kespa is non profit. But in reality what this is all ab is really blizzard trying to cash in on the esports cow. For years sc bw was built up by non blizzard entities, so much so that blizzard can not actually enter the market for there own game. If blizzard tried to be a competitor of ogn or mbc, in korea theyd fail as hard as Gom did. So realizing this they simply enetered the market the only way they could with out simply being a small player with mbc and ogn, they sued their way in. Under the mask of IP rights, they have basically stopped ogn and mbc from created sc2 leagues, or sc2 pro teams, now blizzard can step in an attempt to fill that void. IMO they dont understand what made sc bw big, or how to run an e-sport, as seen from theyre handling of sc2 so far, but thats not the point, what is the point is they have now put themselves in a position to be a major player, an option they didnt have before, Of course this law suite is worthless, they know that. They were at best hoping to get lucky.
But ask yourself this, if blizzard had never sued kespa, what sc2 league would we be watching? If kespa had gone unhindered, we would probably already see pro teams for sc2, or sc2 divisions for all major teams. But the attack on scbw forced ogn and mbcs hand, they had to ensure theyre cashf low remained uninterrupted, so they had to ensure that players and fans werent leaving broodwar, which is why we saw all the taxes, lack of pro gamer switching or even statements about sc2 by anyone (progamer, coach ect), besides sparse comments. You have to think that big names, the top players have all thought, man I bet i could destroy kids in sc2. Blizzard controls the creativity of it too. They host the maps, choose the map pool, and all but killed any ums settings they dont sponsor, because they want to be major players. No sc2 tournament will feature non blizz maps, no ums will become dota.
Its all a game, now no matter what happens, Gsl is the largest sc2 tourney out there, and blizzard is in. Whether or not they kill bw is inconsequential, because I think blizzard just wants to run sc2, because they want to be kespa and theyre forcing their way in. Because if they didn't the best they could hope for would be some third rate cut, or ad deals, from ogn and mbc and they dream bigger than that. Thats all this ip bs is about, they dont care if they lose at this point because they think theyve won. Who knows, I honestly beleive they dont understand the industry enough to keep the organization alive, but then again its blizzard, one of those talented kids will figure it out.
Well, I do recall that though KeSPA is "nonprofit," their leadership and representatives consist heavily of the corporate sponsors for the teams and leagues, so I don't think they are completely immune from corporate influences.
Blizzard has been in negotiations with KeSPA and OGN/MBC for years since 2007 about broadcasting rights, yet none of those negotiations have ever been successful. The IP rights issue is way too old for it to be considered as a "conspiracy" for Blizzard to stifle all other competition. They probably want OGN/MBC to create SC2 leagues, though until negotiations with KeSPA are successful, this won't be happening. Despite these years of negotiations, a few topics in regards to league fees and IP rights being extended to matches and replays have forced a complete standstill between Blizzard and KeSPA due to their wildly different opinions on them, especially in regards to IP rights. Though most of the negotiations have gone smoothly, its just a few topics that have caused disagreement up until now, and Blizzard/Gretech pretty much started suing when it became apparent to them that these disagreements are completely irreconcilable.
Also, KeSPA's embargo on SC2 is not recent and goes back a long way to before SC2 was even released. When negotiations went sour between Gretech and KeSPA a few years ago, KeSPA forced a majority of players and teams to pull out of the GOM Classic BW tournament, thus causing it to completely flop. Since then, KeSPA has kept a strict control over its players playing in anything that was non-KeSPA sanctioned, especially in regards to tournaments run by Gretech and Blizzard. This embargo was enforced long before the negotiations turned into a lawsuit, and it is probably one of the main reasons that Blizzard wants to have a voice in the BW scene.
If this lawsuit never happened, KeSPA still would never allow for its players and teams to transition over to SC2. KeSPA is an authority on BW, not SC2, and it wants to remain that way. If Blizzard kept its hands out of the Korean scene, then KeSPA would be perfectly fine with keeping its embargo and letting the SC2 flunk as long as the BW stays vibrant and profitable. Currently, it sees SC2 as a competitor, not an opportunity, so it has remained very hostile to the SC2 scene.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post.
First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think
Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made.
The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts.
Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations.
It said they should "use its best efforts to make [...] smooth transition of professional players". As I read it, it doesn't say anything about making players switch over. Rather, it says that Gretech should make the transition of those who do choose to switch over as smooth as possible, which is quite reasonable.
On January 29 2011 03:40 m3rciless wrote: wait blizzard is suing for 350k US? who gives a shit about that kind of money.
Actually, it's 350 million Korean won, which converts into $313k US dollars.
It may be a small fee compared to the majority of high-profile lawsuits in the US, though $313k is big money when dealing with the frugal e-sports scene.
On January 29 2011 03:40 m3rciless wrote: wait blizzard is suing for 350k US? who gives a shit about that kind of money.
Actually, it's 350 million Korean won, which converts into $313k US dollars.
It may be a small fee compared to the majority of high-profile lawsuits in the US, though $313k is big money when dealing with the frugal e-sports scene.
MBC Game barely make that kind of money......it's kinda the main reason I make fun of them.....They don't make enough an they don't get great sponsors because of it(Bigfile,PDPop,etc)
On January 29 2011 03:30 eviltomahawk wrote: Blizzard has been in negotiations with KeSPA and OGN/MBC for years since 2007 about broadcasting rights, yet none of those negotiations have ever been successful. The IP rights issue is way too old for it to be considered as a "conspiracy" for Blizzard to stifle all other competition.
[I don't like Kespa so I'm going to assume a bunch of things to put them in a negative light while telling people they shouldn't assume what Blizzard's position is.]
Starcraft 2 was announced in 2007. KeSPA claims any time there was a delay with Starcraft 2, Blizzard would delay negotiations. Two can spin anecdotal evidence!
Still not convinced this demonstrates some evil conspiratorial motive on Blizzard's part. Considering that Blizzard and Gretech were planning on starting the GSL, is it any wonder that their contract includes transitioning from BW to SC2? Naturally, the anti-Bliz crowd[1] interprets this phrase in the widest interpretation possible with the most devious motive. But if it turns out that it was a narrowly defined term of contract between only Blizzard and Gretech? These debates are based on far too much speculation on the diabolical nature of Blizzard based on far too few phrases highlighted by KESPA/OGN/MBC who have an agenda just as much as Blizzard does.
[1] anti-Bliz rather than just pro-BW, else it would include people such as myself that only plays BW these days.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
I agree that people are overreacting.
A clause requesting Gretech to make the "transition" smooth can refer to many different things. So far they've helped any pro-gamer who switched from SC1 to SC2 and accepted them with open arms, rather than ban them. There are some people here assuming it means the goal is to kill BW but the other possibilities are far too easily overlooked. I don't see anything about forcing the transition, only making it smooth.
I certainly don't think it's "100% proof Blizzard wants to kill BW" as many keep preaching. It's pretty lame that people are eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find. The entire thing has never been black & white but to most BW elitists- if it fucks with BW it can go to hell.
When it comes to Blizz vs BW stuff people jump on the BW side far too fast and promote explanations that may not even be true. Remember, Daily e-Sports was the journalist outlet that slandered and attempted to tarnish NaDa's name for switching. It's hard to take anything they say without a big chunk of salt.
There are very GOOD reasons why we, "the BW elitists" as you so like to call us even though most of us like me also watch the GSL, are "eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find". I can list them below:
1) The failure of B.net 2.0 2) The strong-arm tactics that Blizzard is flexing over OGN/MBC in this case 3) Failure of Blizzard to address fans' complaints to make SC2 better (please look at Fomos for an example - they were once so pro-SC2 but now they are very anti-Blizzard now; refer to a previous post by someone else for quotes - only playXP is like still pro-SC2 left) 4) Being too greedy and wanting too much control of a e-sports scene that was built up, from scratch, not by them but by the love of fans and broadcasters as well as Kespa in S.Korea 5) Overall, being too inept to bother with e-sports as a whole; look at GomTV's handling of GSL (just throwing money at GSL is not going to magically make it a big e-sports in future)
I could list several other reasons why we are losing faith and patience with Blizzard. Their actions have been more disgusting and a waste of time as of late. Sorry, but we can only tolerate so much until "enough is enough"! -_-
EDIT: Below is the quoted post to support Point 3 (hidden in a spoiler to make post shorter):
On January 28 2011 18:40 psycow wrote: Well, there already is precedent in the previous Blizzard vs KeSPA case where Blizzard lost. Now Blizzard is using a proxy to do their bidding but looks like it's not going well for them.
On a related note, an article posted after the litigation one on FOMOS:
Some BS about a video interview with Dustin "WHAT'S COOOOOOOOL" Browden on new mini-games for SC2... [SC2 articles not worth translating...]
The most interesting part of this article are the replies. To paraphrase most of them:
[LOLwut?] [FAIL] [FIX THE F*CKING GAME FIRST] [Desperation!!!!] [SC2 FAILED GAME. AHAHAHHAHAHA!!!...]
Funny how FOMOS started very enthusiastic about SC2 but now has turned extreme anti. The only place left pro-SC2 in Korea is playXP. Slowly but surely that place is turning too. Bad game is just bad.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
I agree that people are overreacting.
A clause requesting Gretech to make the "transition" smooth can refer to many different things. So far they've helped any pro-gamer who switched from SC1 to SC2 and accepted them with open arms, rather than ban them. There are some people here assuming it means the goal is to kill BW but the other possibilities are far too easily overlooked. I don't see anything about forcing the transition, only making it smooth.
I certainly don't think it's "100% proof Blizzard wants to kill BW" as many keep preaching. It's pretty lame that people are eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find. The entire thing has never been black & white but to most BW elitists- if it fucks with BW it can go to hell.
When it comes to Blizz vs BW stuff people jump on the BW side far too fast and promote explanations that may not even be true. Remember, Daily e-Sports was the journalist outlet that slandered and attempted to tarnish NaDa's name for switching. It's hard to take anything they say without a big chunk of salt.
There are very GOOD reasons why we, "the BW elitists" as you so like to call us even though most of us like me also watch the GSL, are "eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find". I can list them below:
1) The failure of B.net 2.0 2) The strong-arm tactics that Blizzard is flexing over OGN/MBC in this case 3) Failure of Blizzard to address fans' complaints to make SC2 better (please look at Fomos for an example - they were once so pro-SC2 but now they are very anti-Blizzard now; refer to a previous post by someone else for quotes - only playXP is like still pro-SC2 left) 4) Being too greedy and wanting too much control of a e-sports scene that was built up, from scratch, not by them but by the love of fans and broadcasters as well as Kespa in S.Korea 5) Overall, being too inept to bother with e-sports as a whole; look at GomTV's handling of GSL (just throwing money at GSL is not going to magically make it a big e-sports in future)
I could list several other reasons why we are losing faith and patience with Blizzard. Their actions have been more disgusting and a waste of time as of late. Sorry, but we can only tolerate so much until "enough is enough"! -_-
EDIT: Below is the quoted post to support Point 3:
On January 28 2011 18:40 psycow wrote: Well, there already is precedent in the previous Blizzard vs KeSPA case where Blizzard lost. Now Blizzard is using a proxy to do their bidding but looks like it's not going well for them.
On a related note, an article posted after the litigation one on FOMOS:
Some BS about a video interview with Dustin "WHAT'S COOOOOOOOL" Browden on new mini-games for SC2... [SC2 articles not worth translating...]
The most interesting part of this article are the replies. To paraphrase most of them:
[LOLwut?] [FAIL] [FIX THE F*CKING GAME FIRST] [Desperation!!!!] [SC2 FAILED GAME. AHAHAHHAHAHA!!!...]
Funny how FOMOS started very enthusiastic about SC2 but now has turned extreme anti. The only place left pro-SC2 in Korea is playXP. Slowly but surely that place is turning too. Bad game is just bad.
1. This is completely arbitrary, there are a great number of successes in bnet2.0. No system is perfect, and they're working to improve it every day. 2. I'd hardly call them strong-arm tactics when ogn/mbc simply ignored them 3. Failure to address complaints? They continue to patch the game to improve balance, hotfix to fix glaring issues, etc. As to the supposed changing sentiment of fomos, it's always been a bw-centric website. And there's not only playxp, there's also thisisgame. Finally, as to the person you quoted, he's hardly an impartial source. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=184044#4 for an example of how he feels. 4. This is unproven and probably not true, the stated terms involved very little control and requested only an acknowledgement of IP rights and payment of usage fees. 5. What exactly is wrong with GSL? It's been very well run so far.
Actually not very surprising news, thanks to Milkis anyway for the translation, this just confirms that Blizzard is trying to get control over BW in Korea, I will do the same, in which other sequel game your main rival is your own game that you dont control anymore?, in fact SC2 is decreasing in PC Bangs since the middle of the second season of GSL, so Blizzard will push harder in court, because they need to regain the control over SC:BW (they already have it in SC2), in order to dictate the next step in RTS games in Korea (the biggest natural market), this of course is not good for BW fans but it is the way that business are made, maybe Blizzard should invest some big money developing e-sports in NA and EU instead of disturbing the SC:BW enviroment but that is just a wish.
On January 29 2011 05:22 Antoine wrote: 4. This is unproven and probably not true, the stated terms involved very little control and requested only an acknowledgement of IP rights and payment of usage fees.
What have you been smoking?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year. 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan. 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement. 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos. 5. Right to audit KeSPA."
and
"6. Contracts between KeSPA players and Blizzard that override any contracts between KeSPA and their players."
Are you sure it was full ownership of programs and videos? I don't remember it being like that. I didn't know about 6. though, that is definitely too controlling.
The design of bnet 2.0 in it self allows them 100% control ( need to log on to play/ everyone is given an account instead of freely registering new accounts on battle.net ( SC1/Wc3 ) )
from a business point a view it kind of makes sense that blizzblizz is trying to kill sc1, i feel sorry for the fans but i would really want to see jaedong flash and co duke it out with the sc2 gosus
it would be like all the gosus of war3 + bw + the new players of sc2 united in one madness
On January 29 2011 05:55 Manimal_pro wrote: from a business point a view it kind of makes sense that blizzblizz is trying to kill sc1, i feel sorry for the fans but i would really want to see jaedong flash and co duke it out with the sc2 gosus
it would be like all the gosus of war3 + bw + the new players of sc2 united in one madness
No, it doesn't make any sense. SC:BW is still selling well(for a game that old), hell Blizzard is still selling it on their store. Overall the whole notion of Blizzard wanting to kill BW is ridiculous. They just want a share of that cake that is e -sports. The only thing to question is if the are doing right or wrong with that.
But seriously guys, Blizzard is not a temper tantrum throwing kid, neither is Kespa lets stop trying to assume that they are acting on emotion. BW is still profitable to Blizzard, they want to promote SC2(hence the painless transition to SC2. A comment that many have pointed out can be taken many ways)
We are just overreacting, I do think this whole lawsuit is moronic but both parties want to protect their product as much as they can. This overall is a PR mess for Blizzard(well, not that much, look up in any big gaming website and this is not really that huge for the mainstream) and the longer this drags out the more Blizzard will look like the bad guy here.
As for the quality of SC2 vs BW, come one guys, opinions? I enjoy both of them.
Well, the whole point of my whole rant is:
Lets not overreact and assume stuff that may or may not be there.This is not a black and white issue.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I've already said it before in the thread, do not take DES article 100% seriously. They are known pro-KeSPA media and most of the story is extremely biased. It's as if the lawyer representing MBC/OGN wrote the article. Not to mention DES only posts negative articles about SC2 and the GSL.
Blizzard must have some kind of argument otherwise they wouldn't have pursued a lawsuit. The clause mentioned was NOT the main focus of session yet DES focuses on it and amplifies it. They also outright assumes about Gretech's so called "unreasonable" claims being due to this clause.
Until we have some story from Blizzard/Gretech's sides, we should not get swayed by KeSPA's propaganda.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I've already said it before in the thread, do not take DES article 100% seriously. They are known pro-KeSPA media and most of the story is extremely biased. It's as if the lawyer representing MBC/OGN wrote the article. Not to mention DES only posts negative articles about SC2 and the GSL.
Blizzard must have some kind of argument otherwise they wouldn't have pursued a lawsuit. The clause mentioned was NOT the main focus of session yet DES focuses on it and amplifies it. They also outright assumes about Gretech's so called "unreasonable" claims being due to this clause.
Until we have some story from Blizzard/Gretech's sides, we should not get swayed by KeSPA's propaganda.
You do not need to tell me what is biased or what is not. Secondly, if you pay attention to DES -- they are pretty good at reporting facts (in fact they will report things that other media outlets do not) -- you just have to dodge their interpretation.
You can call it propaganda if you wish, and you can simply put it down as "propaganda" -- but what positive signal has Blizzard sent about their actions that makes you believe them? In the meanwhile we know how KeSPA operates pretty damn well from all the years they've had and honestly this is one case where I actually find them more trustworthy than Blizzard -- Blizzard has definitely had their share of propaganda too (in fact, they ripped it DIRECTLY from the rumors that perpetuated pgr21 when they blasted KeSPA -- you have to admit when Blizzard just rehashes community arguments that were pretty well shut down they probably don't have anything.
I don't know where this blind Blizzard faith is coming from. Assuming Blizzard is a capable company that actually has a case, what stops them from actually talking about it other than empty words like "oh we really like brood war, it takes a special place in my heart" when there are a pile of evidence that Blizzard abandoned Brood War ages ago.
KeSPA is filled with propaganda, you're right. But they at least have something to base it on. Blizzard has absolutely nothing in this but empty worthless words. If Blizzard truly cares for Brood War they have more than ample ways of proving that they care. They haven't done shit about it.
On January 29 2011 05:55 Manimal_pro wrote: from a business point a view it kind of makes sense that blizzblizz is trying to kill sc1, i feel sorry for the fans but i would really want to see jaedong flash and co duke it out with the sc2 gosus
it would be like all the gosus of war3 + bw + the new players of sc2 united in one madness
Yeah, lets force them to play that game instead. Lets see what happens with the passion for the game, the leagues, the fans etc.
There is a reason why Brood War is a natural hit that doesn't need a huge PR campain and a lawsuit against competing e-sports to be played/watched/loved.
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause.
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech.
It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone.
I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen.
Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible.
I agree that people are overreacting.
A clause requesting Gretech to make the "transition" smooth can refer to many different things. So far they've helped any pro-gamer who switched from SC1 to SC2 and accepted them with open arms, rather than ban them. There are some people here assuming it means the goal is to kill BW but the other possibilities are far too easily overlooked. I don't see anything about forcing the transition, only making it smooth.
I certainly don't think it's "100% proof Blizzard wants to kill BW" as many keep preaching. It's pretty lame that people are eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find. The entire thing has never been black & white but to most BW elitists- if it fucks with BW it can go to hell.
When it comes to Blizz vs BW stuff people jump on the BW side far too fast and promote explanations that may not even be true. Remember, Daily e-Sports was the journalist outlet that slandered and attempted to tarnish NaDa's name for switching. It's hard to take anything they say without a big chunk of salt.
There are very GOOD reasons why we, "the BW elitists" as you so like to call us even though most of us like me also watch the GSL, are "eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find". I can list them below:
1) The failure of B.net 2.0 2) The strong-arm tactics that Blizzard is flexing over OGN/MBC in this case 3) Failure of Blizzard to address fans' complaints to make SC2 better (please look at Fomos for an example - they were once so pro-SC2 but now they are very anti-Blizzard now; refer to a previous post by someone else for quotes - only playXP is like still pro-SC2 left) 4) Being too greedy and wanting too much control of a e-sports scene that was built up, from scratch, not by them but by the love of fans and broadcasters as well as Kespa in S.Korea 5) Overall, being too inept to bother with e-sports as a whole; look at GomTV's handling of GSL (just throwing money at GSL is not going to magically make it a big e-sports in future)
I could list several other reasons why we are losing faith and patience with Blizzard. Their actions have been more disgusting and a waste of time as of late. Sorry, but we can only tolerate so much until "enough is enough"! -_-
EDIT: Below is the quoted post to support Point 3:
On January 28 2011 18:40 psycow wrote: Well, there already is precedent in the previous Blizzard vs KeSPA case where Blizzard lost. Now Blizzard is using a proxy to do their bidding but looks like it's not going well for them.
On a related note, an article posted after the litigation one on FOMOS:
Some BS about a video interview with Dustin "WHAT'S COOOOOOOOL" Browden on new mini-games for SC2... [SC2 articles not worth translating...]
The most interesting part of this article are the replies. To paraphrase most of them:
[LOLwut?] [FAIL] [FIX THE F*CKING GAME FIRST] [Desperation!!!!] [SC2 FAILED GAME. AHAHAHHAHAHA!!!...]
Funny how FOMOS started very enthusiastic about SC2 but now has turned extreme anti. The only place left pro-SC2 in Korea is playXP. Slowly but surely that place is turning too. Bad game is just bad.
1. This is completely arbitrary, there are a great number of successes in bnet2.0. No system is perfect, and they're working to improve it every day. 2. I'd hardly call them strong-arm tactics when ogn/mbc simply ignored them 3. Failure to address complaints? They continue to patch the game to improve balance, hotfix to fix glaring issues, etc. As to the supposed changing sentiment of fomos, it's always been a bw-centric website. And there's not only playxp, there's also thisisgame. Finally, as to the person you quoted, he's hardly an impartial source. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=184044#4 for an example of how he feels. 4. This is unproven and probably not true, the stated terms involved very little control and requested only an acknowledgement of IP rights and payment of usage fees. 5. What exactly is wrong with GSL? It's been very well run so far.
1.No system is perfect, but seeing as you had a search engine and a perfect Warcraft III example(one with fully functional chat channels, and a simple search engine), while Bnet 2.0 lacked both these(still lacking the search engine). The technology is here yet it is not utilized?Instead we get Facebook, a nice addition but a search engine for custom games is still nowhere to be seen, however I must say that Bnet 2.0 is not all bad and it has awesome features. (such as the MM system)
2.Blizzard ignored BW for years, now they suddenly want a piece(IMO has to do with the rise of sc2, but thats another discussion).
3.They do not adress the complaints thoroughly or fast, but I can't disagree with them that much on this, however new maps should have been added way faster(or should be) to the map pools. The community has asked this since day 1 and still no larger maps have been put into the map pool. GSL might test new ones but these days, with technology allowing it, It should be done much faster.
4.Perhaps you are right, and they are not greedy. However given recent revelations about the SC2 pushing out BW scheme that seems unlikely. Now I for 1 will always still be a Blizzard fan and I hope that it is Activisions decision in here and not Blizzard doing that.
5.The GSL has NOT been doing fine in S-Korea,. There have been reports of the GSL hiring a stadium for 5000 people and only 500 people attended. The Koreans vastly complain about GSL's(Their opinion, leaving my own out of here) inferiority to BW(Evidenced by Fomos). Yes the GSL does well outside of Korea, but not in Korea itself. So far its not going bad for GSL but its not good in particular either. However given that the SC2>>BW(I hope not) is true then I don't see the GSL doing much better for Blizzard anytime sooner.
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made
The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
I've already said it before in the thread, do not take DES article 100% seriously. They are known pro-KeSPA media and most of the story is extremely biased. It's as if the lawyer representing MBC/OGN wrote the article. Not to mention DES only posts negative articles about SC2 and the GSL.
Blizzard must have some kind of argument otherwise they wouldn't have pursued a lawsuit. The clause mentioned was NOT the main focus of session yet DES focuses on it and amplifies it. They also outright assumes about Gretech's so called "unreasonable" claims being due to this clause.
Until we have some story from Blizzard/Gretech's sides, we should not get swayed by KeSPA's propaganda.
You do not need to tell me what is biased or what is not. Secondly, if you pay attention to DES -- they are pretty good at reporting facts (in fact they will report things that other media outlets do not) -- you just have to dodge their interpretation.
You can call it propaganda if you wish, and you can simply put it down as "propaganda" -- but what positive signal has Blizzard sent about their actions that makes you believe them? In the meanwhile we know how KeSPA operates pretty damn well from all the years they've had and honestly this is one case where I actually find them more trustworthy than Blizzard -- Blizzard has definitely had their share of propaganda too (in fact, they ripped it DIRECTLY from the rumors that perpetuated pgr21 when they blasted KeSPA -- you have to admit when Blizzard just rehashes community arguments that were pretty well shut down they probably don't have anything.
I don't know where this blind Blizzard faith is coming from. Assuming Blizzard is a capable company that actually has a case, what stops them from actually talking about it other than empty words like "oh we really like brood war, it takes a special place in my heart" when there are a pile of evidence that Blizzard abandoned Brood War ages ago.
KeSPA is filled with propaganda, you're right. But they at least have something to base it on. Blizzard has absolutely nothing in this but empty worthless words. If Blizzard truly cares for Brood War they have more than ample ways of proving that they care. They haven't done shit about it.
Its not a blind faith, I'm calling to wait on actual facts.
As a translator, you shouldn't cherry pick the information just because you are with KeSPA. You've neglected to mention a LOT of Korean netizens doesn't take DES article seriously just because how biased they write their article. What positive things have they wrote about GSL? I remember only thing they really wrote was how much failure the final was and about Choya's scandal.
we do NOT know it as a fact that Gretech is making "unreasonable demand" because Blizzard told them to kill SC1, yet DES blatantly talks like this as if its a fact. This article is just there to stir up anti-blizzard sentiment as it is clear in the tone.
I've linked you article from Naver News which is much more neutral source, and I don't see how you can possibly disagree with that.
Its not a blind faith, I'm calling to wait on actual facts.
As a translator, you shouldn't cherry pick the information just because you are with KeSPA. You've neglected to mention a LOT of Korean netizens doesn't take DES article seriously just because how biased they write their article. What positive things have they wrote about GSL? I remember only thing they really wrote was how much failure the final was and about Choya's scandal.
And do you see me use those sources? Or their interpretation?
Before you accuse me of cherry picking, what part of my source is cherry picked? People like you and even netizens in Korea are absolutely hilarious -- you don't even know where I used DES and you're immediately jumping up and down calling me biased. Do you know how ridiculously hilarious that is? You have no fucking idea, and maybe if you read the two main sources (ThisisGame article, which is written by Shim Hyun, who has a Pro SC2 slant, who is also part of the SC2 esports association in Korea) then you will realize that the DES was only a source for three minor things that are pretty much fact 1) That the clause in question was referring to one between Blizzard and Gretech 2) The actual text of the clause in question 3) The response Blizzard lawyers gave
And yet you have the absolute galls to call me cherry picking without even knowing this? What part of the DES sources I wrote is biased? Care to tell me, since you all so know everything?
I'm absolutely and utterly tired of having to defend myself every time I frigging translate or write something. It's absolutely hilarious. Do you see me using the DES interpretation as a fact? Go read any of my translations and look.
Do your fucking research before trying to call me out, holy fucking shit.
Its not a blind faith, I'm calling to wait on actual facts.
As a translator, you shouldn't cherry pick the information just because you are with KeSPA. You've neglected to mention a LOT of Korean netizens doesn't take DES article seriously just because how biased they write their article. What positive things have they wrote about GSL? I remember only thing they really wrote was how much failure the final was and about Choya's scandal.
And do you see me use those sources? Or their interpretation?
Before you accuse me of cherry picking, what part of my source is cherry picked? People like you and even netizens in Korea are absolutely hilarious -- you don't even know where I used DES and you're immediately jumping up and down calling me biased. Do you know how ridiculously hilarious that is? You have no fucking idea, and maybe if you read the two main sources (ThisisGame article, which is written by Shim Hyun, who has a Pro SC2 slant, who is also part of the SC2 esports association in Korea) then you will realize that the DES was only a source for three minor things that are pretty much fact 1) That the clause in question was referring to one between Blizzard and Gretech 2) The actual text of the clause in question 3) The response Blizzard lawyers gave
And yet you have the absolute galls to call me cherry picking without even knowing this? What part of the DES sources I wrote is biased? Care to tell me, since you all so know everything?
I'm absolutely and utterly tired of having to defend myself every time I frigging translate or write something. It's absolutely hilarious. Do you see me using the DES thing as a fact? Go read any of my translations and look.
Do your fucking research before trying to call me out, holy fucking shit.
I'm not jumping up and down, why are you getting upset over this?
I'm simply mentioning the fact that you linked the DES article in your OP, and you flaming blizzard.
Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded.
^ that is direct quote from you, but of course, you are entitled to your opinion and this is not in the OP as news so I'm fine with that.
But to link DES article in the OP as "source" is rather misleading.
I have absolutely no problem with the Thisisgames article. I never claimed I knew everything, I said we should wait on Blizzard/Gretech's side of the story.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
You definitely implied my article wasn't neutral simply because i used things from DES. I don't know how that implies you read the damn thing (especially when you claim to have read the naver one you linked to). THE SOLE REASON you took an issue with this entire thing was because I used a source that Koreans disapprove of, even though you haven't read the article or know what part of the article i even used as a source. You are trying to baby me like I don't understand this or something and it's absolutely ridiculous why you think that i'm incapable or something.
Of course I have opinions, and I keep them separate from the actual evidence. It's also hilarious how you're claiming that my opinion is wrong or something because "Blizzard or Gretech hasn't spoken yet" even though I gave you an the exact reason why their words aren't worth crap to anyone with half a brain. And yet you're claiming that I'm not allowed to make a hypothesis before they speak? give me a break.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
You are not trying to reason, sorry to go into this argument but what you have done is accusing the translator of cherry picking, even when He is telling you that the main source is not DES (but a site that favors SC2), lets wait for Blizzard answer to this maybe in 100 years so you have your "reliable" source.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
You are not trying to reason, sorry to go into this argument but what you have done is accusing the translator of cherry picking, even when He is telling you that the main source is not DES (but a site that favors SC2), lets wait for Blizzard answer to this maybe in 100 years so you have your "reliable" source.
I really can't see what Blizzard have to say about this.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
You definitely implied my article wasn't neutral simply because i used things from DES. I don't know how that implies you read the damn thing (especially when you claim to have read the naver one you linked to). THE SOLE REASON you took an issue with this entire thing was because I used a source that Koreans disapprove of, even though you haven't read the article or know what part of the article i even used as a source. You are trying to baby me like I don't understand this or something and it's absolutely ridiculous why you think that i'm incapable or something.
Of course I have opinions, and I keep them separate from the actual evidence. It's also hilarious how you're claiming that my opinion is wrong or something because "Blizzard or Gretech hasn't spoken yet" even though I gave you an the exact reason why their words aren't worth crap to anyone with half a brain. And yet you're claiming that I'm not allowed to make a hypothesis before they speak? give me a break.
Nevermind, it's no use trying to have a discussion with you when you simply assume the meaning of my texts, take potshots at me and shoot me down with comments like I'm hilarious. I even PM'd instead of posting because I wanted avoid coming off like this out of respect for you. First thing you told me was I shouldn't talk because you know more about how media works. I don't see how we're gonna have any productive discussion here.
I didn't claim your opinion was wrong, you are not allowed to make hypothesis nor did I imply your article itself was not neutral. All I pointed out was how you linked misleading article from DES in the OP, and all other things I've said is that we shouldn't assume what Blizzard/Gretech is thinking just because they refuse to speak.
On January 29 2011 07:57 Milkis wrote: Yup because putting DES as source invalidates your entire article
it's misleading if you don't read it and jump to assumptions, that's for sure.
It of course doesn't invalidate the article, but doesn't change the fact that it's misleading. If you post on a Korean SC forum and link to DES article, majority of people would call you out on it because they know its heavily KeSPA favoured.
If we're gona have any productive discussion on the subject, we have to know the side from Blizzard as well, but they are reluctant to make their stance public for whatever reason. For all I know, DES could be on to something here, but it still means we MUST wait for facts before we can draw any conclusion from it.
By the way, I've read that article before you posted it- As a proof, go to page 3 of the thread. I read it and I understand it. The one jumping to conclusion is the DES article.
I'm just trying to reason with you, I don't know why you are taking this so personally =(.
You are not trying to reason, sorry to go into this argument but what you have done is accusing the translator of cherry picking, even when He is telling you that the main source is not DES (but a site that favors SC2), lets wait for Blizzard answer to this maybe in 100 years so you have your "reliable" source.
I have no problem with main source, I've said it before. I said linking DES in main is misleading.
As long as the facts presented in the article are not in dispute, I can't figure out what the problem is here. If the facts that came out in collected media reports of the trial do not favor blizzard, that we can't wait around for an appropriate amount of "pro-blizzard" facts to be found. Besides that, there is precious little interpretation or editorializing in the translation as I read it.
Beyond a specious objection to one of two sources cited, I can't see what the substance of scion's objection is. When Blizzard gives an interview or releases a press statement, we translate it and report it. I don't see how there can be an accusation of bias against our translating team.
On January 29 2011 08:39 tree.hugger wrote: As long as the facts presented in the article are not in dispute, I can't figure out what the problem is here. If the facts that came out here do not favor blizzard, that we can't wait around for an appropriate amount of "pro-blizzard" facts to be found. Beyond that, there is precious little interpretation or editorializing in the translation as I read it.
Beyond a specious objection to one of two sources cited, I can't see what the substance of scion's objection is. When Blizzard gives an interview or releases a press statement, we translate it and report it. I don't see how there can be an accusation of bias against our translating team.
If you read when it all started, first my objection was against Milkis's opinion, not the original article.
My ONLY objection to OP is link to DES article as you said.
On January 29 2011 03:31 Antoine wrote: It said they should "use its best efforts to make [...] smooth transition of professional players". As I read it, it doesn't say anything about making players switch over. Rather, it says that Gretech should make the transition of those who do choose to switch over as smooth as possible, which is quite reasonable.
Contracts are usually carefully cross checked by lawyers(not by fake law students/trolls on TL) to avoid ambiguity (sometimes people try to find loopholes in them, but the intention should be clear anyway). If this is indeed what the contract states then it is pretty clear blizzard wants Gretech to drop BW. If intended meaning was as you describe then I think "blah blah make transition of players as smooth as possible" would have been there instead.
On January 29 2011 08:39 tree.hugger wrote: As long as the facts presented in the article are not in dispute, I can't figure out what the problem is here. If the facts that came out here do not favor blizzard, that we can't wait around for an appropriate amount of "pro-blizzard" facts to be found. Beyond that, there is precious little interpretation or editorializing in the translation as I read it.
Beyond a specious objection to one of two sources cited, I can't see what the substance of scion's objection is. When Blizzard gives an interview or releases a press statement, we translate it and report it. I don't see how there can be an accusation of bias against our translating team.
If you read when it all started, first my objection was against Milkis's opinion, not the original article.
My ONLY objection to OP is link to DES article as you said.
Then your objection is with the private opinion of a poster on this website and not with the content or work of the OP. That's fine, and I'm sure Milkis would love to disagree further.
But I think he took this as somewhat of an attack on his translator/journalist ethics, which I don't believe you intended, but might have not been as precise as you intended.
when is blizzard going to realize that pro BW is HUGE MARKETING for ALL things Blizzard? That a stable professional league -- were players draw SALARY and make a living -- is based on a near-perfect game is a HUGE TESTAMENT TO THE AWESOMENESS OF BLIZZARD. Your brand gets tremendous points for developing such a game and to have it withstand the test of time in such a way. Get it through your heads blizzard: ANY PUBLICITY IS GOOD PUBLICITY, AND AN AWESOME PRO LEAGUE IS THE GOLD STANDARD THAT ALL GAMING COMPANIES WISH FOR
On January 28 2011 19:10 psycow wrote: From the article on Daily e-Sports, the English wording in the contract: Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play.
This is the smoking gun. It's clear evidence of Blizzard's two-faced approach, saying one thing to the public while aiming for something else in private. On one hand Blizzard tells the public that they have no intention of stopping broadcasted brood war, but wanted to "have their intellectual property rights recognized". On the other hand, their EXCLUSIVE licensee for BOTH brood war and Starcraft 2 has been specifically directed to "use its best efforts" to move the scene, and the players, to Starcraft 2. Gretech isn't merely Blizzard's Starcraft 2 licensee, with someone else given the rights to maintain Brood War. Gretech was given BOTH the Starcraft 2 and Brood War licenses, and told to transition away from Brood War.
Paul Sams added, "We've always believed firmly that StarCraft leagues can co-exist with GSL, and we hope that MBCGame can continue broadcasting StarCraft tournaments and events. But, for this to happen, it is important to finish licensing negotiations in order to protect our IP rights first.
The non-disclosure agreements certainly helped keep Blizzard's contradicting actions under warps - it's only now in the public venue of the courtroom that these things are coming to light.
haha, it surely would be interesting to have all the Pros switch to sc2, since I prefer to watch SC2 because I can play it a lot better than BW and thus I understand the games much better and see every difference in every BO and timing etc., but I highly doubt that Blizzard may force them into that...
And yet, no one cares to mention how KESPA did worse to Gretech. Is no one else still bitter about the whole 'scheduling conflict' thing a few years ago?
EDIT: That's to say, Gretech/Blizzard are doing damage. KeSPA basically killed Gretech until sc2 started.
KeSPA: Switch to SC2 and we ban you. Blizz: Wins and forces KeSPA to bring SC2 into the spotlight.
GG
Kinda funny to see KeSPA soo desperate after all their fuck-ups. They've actually hurting e-sports a ton with the SC2 ban. The butthurt is obvious now that they can't milk those poor pros for all they're worth till BW burns out in 2-3 years. They are eventually gonna have to accept most of those terms or just cease to exist, either way freedom and e-sports win.
Obviously he never played SC2 professionally on a team, note the "had to intention to switch to SC2". Did you even read the whole article?
He was in the GSL qualifiers... you know the big one for sc2?
On January 29 2011 11:44 nalgene wrote: that's cuz stimedpylon heard some lies from other ppl that seemed too horrible to be true...but went with them anyways...
A lot of people will believe anything... even going as far as to believe the claims made by TL's brigade of self proclaimed law students.
Lol it's clear that the judge only cares about IP right but Blizz put a ton of "weird" stuffs into the matter that are not IP right related at all.
At this rate I can see the result already, Blizz will get the money for IP right but they will have no control over tournaments, players and cannot apply any "weird" condition to MBC/OGN/Kespa.
this just shows how shitty of a company Blizz/Acti are. Valve never demanded anything for 10 years of pro CS 1.6. When source came out, despite the big 1.6vs source talk, the tourneys went parallel. for years. and valve didnt act on anything.
btw: cs has lan. and it prob made more sales money than sc2.
On January 29 2011 12:10 kamikami wrote: Lol it's clear that the judge only cares about IP right but Blizz put a ton of "weird" stuffs into the matter that are not IP right related at all.
At this rate I can see the result already, Blizz will get the money for IP right but they will have no control over tournaments, players and cannot apply any "weird" condition to MBC/OGN/Kespa.
i kinda disagree here. blizz ip quest goes over transmission of bw over the last years. if they get away with it its because they have rights over the transmissions. if they have rights over the transmission u either a) give them control of the tours (or wtv weird conditions they come with). b) livestream and make 0 profit out of it
On January 29 2011 12:10 kamikami wrote: Lol it's clear that the judge only cares about IP right but Blizz put a ton of "weird" stuffs into the matter that are not IP right related at all.
At this rate I can see the result already, Blizz will get the money for IP right but they will have no control over tournaments, players and cannot apply any "weird" condition to MBC/OGN/Kespa.
i kinda disagree here. blizz ip quest goes over transmission of bw over the last years. if they get away with it its because they have rights over the transmissions. if they have rights over the transmission u either a) give them control of the tours (or wtv weird conditions they come with). b) livestream and make 0 profit out of it
No they won't get away with it, that's why they will "only" have the money and nothing more.
wow pretty interesting and intense. i wonder what the judge is thinking about these guys squabbling over who has the right to play a video game. then again it is in korea.
Poor Milkis getting critiqued about his abilties as translator, I'd go as far as to say scion was insulting his intelligence - Milkis even wrote a guide to translating citing the differences between sources and what to look out for.
Zona put it very well too, after 9 pages of discussion there is no doubt in my mind that there was foul play intended here.
On January 29 2011 12:49 waxypants wrote: Damages my ass....without these TV stations broadcasting the game "illegally", the StarCraft name would be nothing today. No GSL either.
Blizz only started getting involved after KeSPA started selling the broadcasting rights to these stations. That's when it became illegal. Also, seeing as 80% of the SC1 and BW sales were made before 2001, OGN/MBCGame have little to do with it's popularity outside Korea since e-sports is a very small and niche market. You also forgot the countless illegal servers for BW that are still up and running in and outside Korea.
Blizz should have this in the bag as far as law is concerned.
On January 29 2011 12:49 waxypants wrote: Damages my ass....without these TV stations broadcasting the game "illegally", the StarCraft name would be nothing today. No GSL either.
Blizz only started getting involved after KeSPA started selling the broadcasting rights to these stations. That's when it became illegal. Also, seeing as 80% of the SC1 and BW sales were made before 2001, OGN/MBCGame have little to do with it's popularity outside Korea since e-sports is a very small and niche market. You also forgot the countless illegal servers for BW that are still up and running in and outside Korea.
Blizz should have this in the bag as far as law is concerned.
On January 29 2011 12:49 waxypants wrote: Damages my ass....without these TV stations broadcasting the game "illegally", the StarCraft name would be nothing today. No GSL either.
Blizz only started getting involved after KeSPA started selling the broadcasting rights to these stations. That's when it became illegal. Also, seeing as 80% of the SC1 and BW sales were made before 2001, OGN/MBCGame have little to do with it's popularity outside Korea since e-sports is a very small and niche market. You also forgot the countless illegal servers for BW that are still up and running in and outside Korea.
Blizz should have this in the bag as far as law is concerned.
lol ok since you complained that people are not talking about your ridiculous arguments i'll bite.
Not one of your arguments even makes sense
Blizz only started getting involved after KeSPA started selling the broadcasting rights to these stations. That's when it became illegal.
Right, so this justifies blizzard sueing MBC because? Unless i am grossly misinformed MBC wasn't selling the broadcast rights to itself. If this is Blizzards reasoning, they would be sueing Kespa, and has no bearing on the current court case.
Also, seeing as 80% of the SC1 and BW sales were made before 2001, OGN/MBCGame have little to do with it's popularity outside Korea since e-sports is a very small and niche market.
Yes given almost half the copies of bw sold ever were in korea, clearly the foreigner market is the only one that matters right?
You also forgot the countless illegal servers for BW that are still up and running in and outside Korea.
Yes, and this is, again, relevant to the case against MBC how? MBC isn't running these servers, let alone profiting off them.
You also forgot about the Somali Pirates who hijack ships, who are equally irrelevant to the current case. Or any number of people in the world involved in illegal activity who are likewise not relevant to the case at hand.
Excellent counter argument there. Counting post counts instead of facts? Is this the 5rd grade?
I thought the fact that you've ignored the counterevidence for your conspiracy theories was funny as well.
Almost as funny as the fact that there seems to be more foreigners supporting KeSPA than there are Koreans. After all the retarded shit KeSPA pulled all these years, they get no second guess chances from me. Kind of sad to see the last years of BW full of soo much pointless conflict and cock waving on both sides.
part of the money they gained from SC1 goes towards funding for WoW ( Level 60 Cap version ) before it was released ( it's only 5% of their total income post WoW release though... ) and that movie for funding the creation of another game certainly helps...
money back then is worth more than money now ( inflation/usury/"quantitative easing" aka printing more money will make it worth less )
On January 29 2011 12:49 waxypants wrote: Damages my ass....without these TV stations broadcasting the game "illegally", the StarCraft name would be nothing today. No GSL either.
Blizz only started getting involved after KeSPA started selling the broadcasting rights to these stations. That's when it became illegal. Also, seeing as 80% of the SC1 and BW sales were made before 2001, OGN/MBCGame have little to do with it's popularity outside Korea since e-sports is a very small and niche market. You also forgot the countless illegal servers for BW that are still up and running in and outside Korea.
Blizz should have this in the bag as far as law is concerned.
Lol MBC/OGN had hold and broadcast tournaments long before the "Kespa sells right" incident, so by your logic it's legal lol. If so there's no reason to sue OGN/MBC, Blizz must have sued Kespa instead. There are not "countless" illegal servers, and most of them are legal in their host country. Also, sales of the game has little to do with esport, a game can be "popular" like WoW, but being popular has nothing to do with esport. In the other hand, MBC/OGN made esport. Without them there would be no competive SC1, and consequently, no competitive SC2.
On January 29 2011 13:37 StimedPylon wrote: After all the retarded shit KeSPA pulled all these years, they get no second guess chances from me. Kind of sad to see the last years of BW full of soo much pointless conflict and cock waving on both sides.
So Blizz didn't pull their own "retarded shit" by your logic ? Their "stuffs" are even more retarded to me : no LAN, claims ownership of all contents made by fans, forced transition to SC2, reserves the right to ban people whenever they like (or can I say steal 60 bucks from people whenever they like)... They just treat customers like trash there's no way they're better than Kespa. It's good to have SC2 grow and replace BW (when SC2 becomes good enough), but definitely not under Blizzard's rule.
BW is now more popular than SC2 in the whole East Asia region (which consist of Korea, China, South East Asia), the region that has the most gamers in the world (and also has the biggest population in the world). Do you honestly think USA and Europe are all that matters ? (Westerners are the guys who change games the most seriously).
All EULAs do this for games that have map editors.
forced transition to SC2
Jumping to conclusions again.
reserves the right to ban people whenever they like (or can I say steal 60 bucks from people whenever they like)
You like having maphackers in your games?
They just treat customers like trash there's no way they're better than Kespa. It's good to have SC2 grow and replace BW (when SC2 becomes good enough), but definitely not under Blizzard's rule.
BW became great under Blizzard's rule and guidance, otherwise BW would have been just another generic Warcraft clone.
On January 29 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote: BW became great under Blizzard's rule and guidance, otherwise BW would have been just another generic Warcraft clone.
Lol the guy before me was right, your posts are really gold. Blizz has no "rule" over BW, and you even mentioned "guidance" lol. Blizz just sucks in every level.
PS : I will quit this thread from now on since I will get banned sooner or later if the arguing goes on, but at least I'm happy because I have done my duty for Beesuit BW lol.
On January 29 2011 14:15 kamikami wrote: PS : I will quit this thread from now on since I will get banned sooner or later if the arguing goes on, but at least I'm happy because I have done my duty for Beesuit BW lol.
you would probably do your duty for BW a lot better if you went back to the LR thread dude
not sure what a bunch of people who are not connected to the situation arguing here achieves
I think Blizzard may have gone a bit too far, but I can understand why Blizzard is doing this. From a business point of view, E-Sports is a relatively new industry/market that has the potential to grow. However, they do need to protect their products and any form of commercialization of their products so that their current and future products are not misused or used for anything without their approval.
When Blizzard gave Gretech rights to broadcast their games, they gave them rights to multiple games, including SC: BW. So I don't really know if the forced transition part will actually be applied. Also, the exact wording also sounds a bit too vague for me. It can mean many things and not what you guys are actually thinking.
Also, it didn't have to go to court if KeSPA didn't start the leagues again. I think they should of negotiated way more before announcing new seasons for the leagues. It was like a slap to the face to Blizzard. Both sides made stupid moves in my opinion, but this part about starting the leagues again sort of made me knew that Blizzard and Gretech wasn't going to just keep negotiating anymore.
Should be required reading for everyone trying to chime in on this thread.
This case doesn't just pertain to BW/SC2. It will set a precedent on how IP rights will be handled for e-sports, especially in Korea, which is important for the long-term well-being of e-sports in general. Though it is unfortunate that Starcraft is the object of this lawsuit, it was inevitable that there would be a legal battle concerning and clarifying the general concept of IP rights in regards to e-sports. The Korean BW scene has always had very fuzzy legality, so it's no surprise that Blizzard has stepped in to clarify the rights being held between the e-sports scene and the developers themselves.
2007 wasn't just the year that SC2 was announced. It wasn't just the year the KeSPA began selling broadcasting rights. 2007 was also the year that the US and South Korea signed the US-South Korean Free Trade Agreement that allowed for US companies to start enforcing IP rights in South Korea [1][2]. Blizzard probably didn't start negotiating before 2007 due to the lack of such a law clarifying the enforcement of IP rights from foreign companies. The agreement finally provided a legal basis for them to start negotiating with the broadcasting companies, though it is also reasonable that the negotiations may have also been heavily influenced by SC2's coinciding announcement.
In most threads about this IP rights issue involving Blizzard/Gretech and KeSPA/MBC/OGN about BW, I've seen my fair share of fanboys of either side.
I don't care if you like either game and think the other is crap. I don't care if you think one side or the other is right about handling E-Sports. That is all opinion and you're entitled to it. What I want to know is, did KeSPA and the broadcasting stations possibly have violated the law or infringed on Blizzard's IP rights? Not saying that they did, but can you actually say that without a doubt KeSPA absolutely did not violate any law or IP rights.
I'm sure that most of us want constructive criticism and interpreted opinions on the arguments on both sides, not just blind fanboy opinion.
I'm Wondering this and I read this in the first few pages of this post, is that. What will happen if Blizzard Wins and What will happen if OGN/MBCGame Wins?
how come when i read about this lawsuit, all i hear is day9 talking about penises being compared. and people who are complaining about the length of the lawsuit should get used to it T.T lawsuits usually take this long. you dont want to rush something as delicate as this.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
I'm a bit ill and with high temperature and can't understand it to its fullest X______x could anyone say if that means that Starcraft (the First one) will continue to be shown or not?...
Please please let it be that it will be casted yet another and another seasons. This OSL/MSL/SPL are already extremely cool.
On January 29 2011 20:18 Brewed Tea wrote: how come when i read about this lawsuit, all i hear is day9 talking about penises being compared. and people who are complaining about the length of the lawsuit should get used to it T.T lawsuits usually take this long. you dont want to rush something as delicate as this.
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
Why are you talking about money for? Nobody believes that the broadcast fees are why Blizzard wants to take over.
What is this continued drivel about IP rights? As the Judge said "- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights." What fkn rights were violated lol?
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
Why are you talking about money for? Nobody believes that the broadcast fees are why Blizzard wants to take over.
What is this continued drivel about IP rights? As the Judge said "- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights." What fkn rights were violated lol?
Obviously advertising their brand 24/7 damaged their company beyond imagination.
I am still adamantly opposed to Blizzard winning any sort of IP battle over the broadcast of BW. Not when they knew about it for so long and did absolutely nothing to stop them when it was in their interest to allow others to keep their game alive and relevant for years and years. Only now it becomes important for them to wrest control of the rights to broadcast the game because it competes with their new one.
I hope there is some resolution that allows the makers of a game to be fairly compensated if they pursue it but not be capable of stopping outright the broadcast of their games for the sake of stifling an industry (or for any reason to be honest)
I don't know how it's going to turn out but I feel like it's just bad news all around if Blizzard wins
On January 28 2011 15:42 Waxangel wrote: ohhh they're actually suing them for damages, I just thought they were filing an injunction to prevent them from broadcasting
I may be mistaken, but I think by giving Blizzard as much money as they are suing for in a winning lawsuit, it would only open the doors for Blizzard to sue again if the league progresses.
Similar to how courts in America can win cases by referring to previous similar judgments, would they not be entitled to sue again and again and again and again so long as SC1 tournaments are held (effectively shutting them down, injunction or not.)
As I said, could be mistaken. Throwing this question out there for someone smarter to answer.
I'm not a lawyer but I believe Double Jeopardy declares that to be illegal; you cannot try someone (or something) for the same crime more than once. It has to be altered in some fashion.
Maybe if they attacked with a different approach from IP violation / damages, they might be able to, but I doubt they can sue them again. Legally speaking, of course.
P.S. Korean court laws might be different, take this with a grain of salt.
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
I think you should shoot yourself and save everyone your childish notions of what this case is about.
I barely know the basics of this trial, and if anything if Blizzard wins, say bye bye to the SC:BW scene. Per what demands I have seen, they want more fees than OGN/MBC/Kespa can/will afford, they want control of the players, which means the scene, and the transition of the game from SC:BW to SC2, so Blizzard won't be holding any SC:BW tournaments of matter.
No case this important is only about money.
If I were MBC/OGN/Kespa, I would want this case to go to completion and have it decided one way or another. I don't want to be treading the line of what you can do and what you can't and who has what right. I think that's why they want to have this case rather than negotiate in private any further
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
I think you should shoot yourself and save everyone your childish notions of what this case is about.
I barely know the basics of this trial, and if anything if Blizzard wins, say bye bye to the SC:BW scene. Per what demands I have seen, they want more fees than OGN/MBC/Kespa can/will afford, they want control of the players, which means the scene, and the transition of the game from SC:BW to SC2, so Blizzard won't be holding any SC:BW tournaments of matter.
No case this important is only about money.
If I were MBC/OGN/Kespa, I would want this case to go to completion and have it decided one way or another. I don't want to be treading the line of what you can do and what you can't and who has what right. I think that's why they want to have this case rather than negotiate in private any further
Wow, calm down boyo. From everything all parties have said on this matter, it isn't Blizzard trying to shut down BW, they just want everyone broadcasting it to be paying them at least something to be showing it. They are making sure their product is theirs, and someone else doesn't profit form their hard work without giving them something. People may say it is greedy, but that is what a company is for, making money off of the products they make.
If someone started showing House on a station that was not paying for the rights to show it, they would immediately be told to stop and if they didn't, would be sued. The NFL also controls who shows their games. NBC cannot just decide to show the games and sell the rights to other stations.
For those asking why Blizz did not go after this sooner, it was simply because they really couldn't, they are not a Korean company, and before the US-Korean trade agreements they really had no legal ground to stand on.
I am not saying Blizzard do not have some fault in this, or that they should get everything they are asking for. They have not handled this the best but too many people see them talking about BW and just foam at the mouth.
As a note: in my opinion, SC2 will help E-sports much more than BW at this point. People who are just getting into E-sports will not want to watch the outdated graphics of BW. The nicer looking SC2 will appeal to them much more, and will be easier to get into. I don't want BW to go away, but if you think BW is the future of E-sports you are sadly mistaken.
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
Er, am I the only one looking at this and thinking 'no shit, Sherlock'? I mean, the whole case hinges on whether Blizzard can prove that their IP rights were violated. That's the single fundamental essence of the case. It seems completely unnecessary to specifically ask Blizzard to do that. Unless that's just the way they run these things in S. Korea.
On January 30 2011 05:38 tapk69 wrote: Well if someone thinks a game made 10 years ago is the future , they should think again.. Starcraft is not poker...
Poker is no chess and chess was made 1094854 years ago.... pfff why are you comparing them?? Even games made within the last 10 years is no starcraft (i.e starcraft 2...*flameshield on?*)
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
I think you should shoot yourself and save everyone your childish notions of what this case is about.
I barely know the basics of this trial, and if anything if Blizzard wins, say bye bye to the SC:BW scene. Per what demands I have seen, they want more fees than OGN/MBC/Kespa can/will afford, they want control of the players, which means the scene, and the transition of the game from SC:BW to SC2, so Blizzard won't be holding any SC:BW tournaments of matter.
No case this important is only about money.
If I were MBC/OGN/Kespa, I would want this case to go to completion and have it decided one way or another. I don't want to be treading the line of what you can do and what you can't and who has what right. I think that's why they want to have this case rather than negotiate in private any further
Wow, calm down boyo. From everything all parties have said on this matter, it isn't Blizzard trying to shut down BW, they just want everyone broadcasting it to be paying them at least something to be showing it. They are making sure their product is theirs, and someone else doesn't profit form their hard work without giving them something. People may say it is greedy, but that is what a company is for, making money off of the products they make.
If someone started showing House on a station that was not paying for the rights to show it, they would immediately be told to stop and if they didn't, would be sued. The NFL also controls who shows their games. NBC cannot just decide to show the games and sell the rights to other stations.
For those asking why Blizz did not go after this sooner, it was simply because they really couldn't, they are not a Korean company, and before the US-Korean trade agreements they really had no legal ground to stand on.
I am not saying Blizzard do not have some fault in this, or that they should get everything they are asking for. They have not handled this the best but too many people see them talking about BW and just foam at the mouth.
As a note: in my opinion, SC2 will help E-sports much more than BW at this point. People who are just getting into E-sports will not want to watch the outdated graphics of BW. The nicer looking SC2 will appeal to them much more, and will be easier to get into. I don't want BW to go away, but if you think BW is the future of E-sports you are sadly mistaken.
Then it brings into question why not let BW alone, if SC2 will appeal to more, then let it appeal to more, why even bother with suing about "outdated" game like BW.
In terms of your comparison with NFL and NBC, it might be more appropriate to compare the NBA, NBC, and the creator of basketball to the issue, since we know who "created" basketball originally. The NFL and NBA would be like Kespa, NBC would be like MBC/OGN (of current), and Blizzard would be like the creator of basketball (what's his face/name).
It's like the creator of basketball, he made the game, and let it be. Then the NBA (or it's predecessors) promoted it, used it, and expanded it into a national sport, then 30 years later, the creator comes by and says "whoops I own all the rights, I want control of players and and rights to all the games created by the players, all decisions have to be okayed by me".
On January 29 2011 22:05 Vista wrote: This thread makes me want to shoot myself lol.
I don't understand all this talk of Blizzard being greedy and wanting to take over the BW scene; have you guys even seen what Blizzard's demands were? Looking at the amount Blizzard asked for broadcasting rights, ot's obvious Blizzard isn't trying to make a profit from the BW scene, rather, they just want their IP rights to be recognized. I don't see that as being greedy at all -__-;;
I think you should shoot yourself and save everyone your childish notions of what this case is about.
I barely know the basics of this trial, and if anything if Blizzard wins, say bye bye to the SC:BW scene. Per what demands I have seen, they want more fees than OGN/MBC/Kespa can/will afford, they want control of the players, which means the scene, and the transition of the game from SC:BW to SC2, so Blizzard won't be holding any SC:BW tournaments of matter.
No case this important is only about money.
If I were MBC/OGN/Kespa, I would want this case to go to completion and have it decided one way or another. I don't want to be treading the line of what you can do and what you can't and who has what right. I think that's why they want to have this case rather than negotiate in private any further
Wow, calm down boyo. From everything all parties have said on this matter, it isn't Blizzard trying to shut down BW, they just want everyone broadcasting it to be paying them at least something to be showing it. They are making sure their product is theirs, and someone else doesn't profit form their hard work without giving them something. People may say it is greedy, but that is what a company is for, making money off of the products they make.
If someone started showing House on a station that was not paying for the rights to show it, they would immediately be told to stop and if they didn't, would be sued. The NFL also controls who shows their games. NBC cannot just decide to show the games and sell the rights to other stations.
For those asking why Blizz did not go after this sooner, it was simply because they really couldn't, they are not a Korean company, and before the US-Korean trade agreements they really had no legal ground to stand on.
I am not saying Blizzard do not have some fault in this, or that they should get everything they are asking for. They have not handled this the best but too many people see them talking about BW and just foam at the mouth.
As a note: in my opinion, SC2 will help E-sports much more than BW at this point. People who are just getting into E-sports will not want to watch the outdated graphics of BW. The nicer looking SC2 will appeal to them much more, and will be easier to get into. I don't want BW to go away, but if you think BW is the future of E-sports you are sadly mistaken.
Then it brings into question why not let BW alone, if SC2 will appeal to more, then let it appeal to more, why even bother with suing about "outdated" game like BW.
In terms of your comparison with NFL and NBC, it might be more appropriate to compare the NBA, NBC, and the creator of basketball to the issue, since we know who "created" basketball originally. The NFL and NBA would be like Kespa, NBC would be like MBC/OGN (of current), and Blizzard would be like the creator of basketball (what's his face/name).
It's like the creator of basketball, he made the game, and let it be. Then the NBA (or it's predecessors) promoted it, used it, and expanded it into a national sport, then 30 years later, the creator comes by and says "whoops I own all the rights, I want control of players and and rights to all the games created by the players, all decisions have to be okayed by me".
Even though BW can be considered an e-"sport", it is still a computer game. I think it is difficult to compare Starcraft with real sports since it pretty much boils down to comparing a video game to a sport. Sports can't be copyrighted and trademarked since they are played in a physical medium. As much as we want Starcraft to be a sport, it is still a product of Blizzard entertainment and hasn't reached the age where it can be considered to be "public domain."
I don't think the basketball analogy is entirely appropriate to this situation. The creator of basketball didn't invest money into creating the game and wasn't seeking a profit from it. He wasn't creating a series of characters, stories, and code that was at risk of being copied and illegally distributed for a profit. Basketball became a sport because it was not created as a product, so it had nothing to gain or lose from being broadcasted without compensation to the "creator."
Unfortunately, Starcraft was created as a product, and Blizzard is treating it as such. Distributing derivative content for a profit usually requires consent from the creator and copyright holder of that content. You can't start writing and selling Batman comics without permission from DC Comics, and you can't start broadcasting your own version of Jeopardy without consent from it's creators. Unfortunately, OGN/MBC didn't have this consent since they didn't even finish their negotiations with Blizzard/Gretech. Blizzard wanted a fee and other terms to accompany this permission, though OGN/MBC and KeSPA didn't agree to the fees and terms, so they never ended up getting that permission.
The problem with Blizzard/Gretech suing OGN/MBC is that the lawsuit was never intended in the first place. Blizz/Gret mainly used the specter of a possible lawsuit as an incentive for OGN/MBC and KeSPA to get the negotiations over with. Unfortunately, Blizz/Gret severely underestimated how stubborn KeSPA's position was, so they were forced to go through with their bluff.
Plus, the IP rights issue is not too old. Blizzard only started negotiating IP rights in 2007 because they couldn't negotiate it before due to the lack of a clear law allowing them to do so. However, Blizzard's terms encroached too much on KeSPA's authority over the BW scene, and neither side was willing to concede over certain hot issues, so the several negotiations over the years have stalled because of these irreconcilably differences.
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
Er, am I the only one looking at this and thinking 'no shit, Sherlock'? I mean, the whole case hinges on whether Blizzard can prove that their IP rights were violated. That's the single fundamental essence of the case. It seems completely unnecessary to specifically ask Blizzard to do that. Unless that's just the way they run these things in S. Korea.
It needs mentioning because Blizzard (and Blizzard supporters) like to take for granted the argument that their IP rights have been violated even though they have done nothing to prove such violations have occured and most importantly they have not clearly described WHAT THEIR IP RIGHTS ACTUALLY ARE (which the defendants are allegedly breaking).
"Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
So, ignore me if this was already addressed or discussed to death but...doesn't this prove that Blizzard was indeed trying to kill off the Brood War scene? Fuck you Blizzard, I hope MBC/OGN wins this just based on that.
It isn't just about BW anymore. MBC provides some excellent content with many other esports related shows/live broadcasts. As it is the station is already poorly funded. If they lose this trial, it would a huge blow to esports in Korea.
"Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
So, ignore me if this was already addressed or discussed to death but...doesn't this prove that Blizzard was indeed trying to kill off the Brood War scene? Fuck you Blizzard, I hope MBC/OGN wins this just based on that.
read a few pages behind....its suggest the contract between Blizzard and Gretech not Blizzard and OGN/MBC.
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
Er, am I the only one looking at this and thinking 'no shit, Sherlock'? I mean, the whole case hinges on whether Blizzard can prove that their IP rights were violated. That's the single fundamental essence of the case. It seems completely unnecessary to specifically ask Blizzard to do that. Unless that's just the way they run these things in S. Korea.
It needs mentioning because Blizzard (and Blizzard supporters) like to take for granted the argument that their IP rights have been violated even though they have done nothing to prove such violations have occured and most importantly they have not clearly described WHAT THEIR IP RIGHTS ACTUALLY ARE (which the defendants are allegedly breaking).
Here's a good article on a recent incident involving copyrights in video games on SRK:
If this OGN/MBCGame vs Blizzard situation took place in the US, Blizzard would win without a fight at all. Broadcasting games without permission clearly falls outside the boundaries of "fair use". Most likely the laws in Korea are less strict than they are in the US, which is why there's even a fight at all.
This is also why the basketball analogy does not make sense. The IP rights given to the rules of a game or sport are much less than what's given to the audio and visuals. The NBA cannot sue someone for playing basketball. But they can sue for the use NBA logos in a publicly broadcast performance w/o their consent.
By a similar measure, OGN/MBCGame could just create their own game, using their original code, with original graphics and sound, that mimics the gameplay of BW.
One thing to add: If Blizzard wanted to sue your ass for livestreaming, they could, and you'd get your ass kicked in a trial. Even if you don't make any money off ad revenue or whatever. But for strategic reasons they won't, as long as they think you're promoting the game.
As for suing OGN/MBCGame, everyone can come up with their own theories on why they're doing this. But they wouldn't do this if they felt the backlash would hurt them in the long run. TBH, I don't think the backlash is that big at all.
dookudooku i completely agree with you.. basketball analogies cant be applied.. thats right make them create their own game since its so easy like hanging a box in the wall and throwing a peach inside like Dr. James Naismith said..
nevertheless basketball was still someones idea. someones intelectual property. dont say its not appropriate.
On January 30 2011 23:26 dookudooku wrote: One thing to add: If Blizzard wanted to sue your ass for livestreaming, they could, and you'd get your ass kicked in a trial. Even if you don't make any money off ad revenue or whatever. But for strategic reasons they won't, as long as they think you're promoting the game.
As for suing OGN/MBCGame, everyone can come up with their own theories on why they're doing this. But they wouldn't do this if they felt the backlash would hurt them in the long run. TBH, I don't think the backlash is that big at all.
mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
And here i was thinking that this thread was pretty good and didnt get derailed as much as the other threads (mind, i was one of the more major derailers, i think :p)
Anyhow, its been discussed to death, guys, this whole Kespa vs Blizz thing.. I think we all should just agree to disagree for now and leave it to the judges.
Oh and of course, thanks Milkis for the translation. I cant read Korean (or Chinese) but i dont see any bias in the articles at all, great job as always
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: nevertheless basketball was still someones idea. someones intelectual property. dont say its not appropriate.
James Naismith openly insisted that he invented the rules of basketball for the purpose of recreation and nothing else. Naismith wanted nothing to do with the business of basketball but simultaneously showed little opposition to it (though like American football, the sport was most popular at the college (i.e. amateur) level for the first half of the twentieth century). For all intents and purposes, Naismith's perception of his game was that it was essentially public domain.
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard.
While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much.
I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here
From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear)
The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm...
Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company).
An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too).
Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.
tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided.
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard.
While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much.
I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here
From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear)
The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm...
Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company).
An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too).
Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.
tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided.
I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA.
The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3.
Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
I tried searching online but found no source on SC:BW sales coming mostly off pre-2001 period. If only you could kindly provide the source? And you are ignoring the point of the Starcraft franchise getting free 10-years worth of advertisement, on prime-time television slots, many hours a day, with celebrities and fans supporting it to boot.
But this argument doesnt belong to this thread, if you wish to, you should go to the general forums and make a thread for civilised discussion on this topic, and everyone can debate to their heart's content. This thread is mainly for the appreciation of the translator's work, and the information provided above.
On January 31 2011 15:42 ffreakk wrote: @StimedPylon
I tried searching online but found no source on SC:BW sales coming mostly off pre-2001 period. If only you could kindly provide the source? And you are ignoring the point of the Starcraft franchise getting free 10-years worth of advertisement, on prime-time television slots, many hours a day, with celebrities and fans supporting it to boot.
But this argument doesnt belong to this thread, if you wish to, you should go to the general forums and make a thread for civilised discussion on this topic, and everyone can debate to their heart's content. This thread is mainly for the appreciation of the translator's work, and the information provided above.
I too want to see the source that says most of the sales were pre 2001. That sounds very iffy.
The only other information that seems to be readily available is that as of 2007 almost 10 million copies of sc and bw had been sold 4.5 million of which were in Korea.
On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3.
As for the pirating, I still fail to see how it is either MBC or Kespa's problem. Neither of those support or take part in pirating of sc, they are creating content from copies of sc/bw that they have purchased legally.
While it is the case that Kespa is using Blizzard's IP for their own purposes, to link this with pirating which DIRECTLY takes away from sales is both erroneous and irrelevant to the case at hand.
On January 31 2011 14:04 StimedPylon wrote Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
I for one want this to drag on as long as possible, Kespa might not be the most competent group of organisers, but right now, they ARE the entire BW scene. Whether or not they are in the right, Blizzard have shown themselves to be entirely incapable or unwilling to create an esports infrastructure as far reaching as the one Kespa already has. If BW infrastructure were to degenerate into the laughable individual tournament only 'infrastructure' that sc2 has, it may as well be dead.
I can't believe how selfish both parties are. This is really a weird decision for Blizzard to continue the case and push for transition from BW to SC2, despite how much I want to see more sc2 with better players.
They do have a legal position though, SC is a product for sale, not a form of entertainment for public domain.
This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote: This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights. Your post is BS.
On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote: This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights. Your post is BS.
Have you read any of the earlier posts, or anything regarding copyrights in general?
The "Live user streams" on the right column of this site is a violation of Blizzard's rights. Any public presentation of SC1 or SC2, beyond "fair use", without Blizzard's consent is a violation. If Blizzard really wanted to, for strategic reasons, they could force the takedown of any live streaming.
Why don't you contact your lawyer and demand a change in the DMCA? Otherwise stop making fallacious statements and calling other people's posts BS.
On January 31 2011 16:20 hmsrenown wrote: I can't believe how selfish both parties are. This is really a weird decision for Blizzard to continue the case and push for transition from BW to SC2, despite how much I want to see more sc2 with better players.
They do have a legal position though, SC is a product for sale, not a form of entertainment for public domain.
SC being a product for sale is not the legal position. The code, artwork, sounds, and music belong to Blizzard. If you do a stream the game, at a certain point it could be considered an infringement of Blizzard's rights, even if you bought the game and make no money off your stream. Now the distinction betwee fair use and infringement can be very unclear times, but in the case of OGN/MBCGame, it's pretty clear.
It's pretty big that MBC and OGN can be jointly defended. Gretech/Blizzard splitting them up would swing things more into their favor.
The transition part is interesting but we don't have nearly enough information on it to really understand the context of it yet, so I'll reserve my thoughts.
No injunction is nice. A suit for 350M won, isn't that supposed to be 1 years worth of contracting for each league? I seem to remember 100M won for broadcasting per league per season.
Overall I think this court session went very well for MBC/OGN.
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard.
While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much.
I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here
From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear)
The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm...
Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company).
An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too).
Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.
tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided.
I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA.
The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3.
Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
Please cite your source about SC: BW selling the majority of the copies before 2001, if you cant, please take back that assumption because it doesnt bring anything useful to the discussion.
On January 31 2011 03:07 misirlou wrote: mbc/ogn publicited bw for years. its not like sales money from bw goes to them. it still goes to blizzard. if it werent for ogn/mbc there wouldnt be any livestream. at all. broodwar would just be another game. bw television spawned the whole sc2 scene that we have now. there would be any livestreamers to advertise the game. there wouldnt be millions of koreans to buy sc2 the day it came out. this is the "thank you" you get for making money for someone. ogn and mbc won money with the streams. however they never asked a dollar for advertising sc.
they want to kill bw so the sc2 fanbase gets bigger=more sales. they have to open up the way for the expansions. they have money to win and nothing is gonna stop them.
welcome to the kotick era
I agree. I've read a lot of threads and here comments about KeSPA "stealing" from Blizzard and making money off of Blizzard.
While that's true, it's not like Blizzard did not get anything out of it. Half of Starcraft sales were from Korea (4.5 mil+, that almost rivals the "worldwide" copies of Diablo 2 sold which is only around 5 million). If it weren't for SC1 as an e-sport, SC1 would probably not had sold as much.
I've seen people say Blizzard received nothing but take Recettear and it's early "leak" (the entire game was put on a torrent) as a similarity. While Recettear was leaked and "illegally" downloaded through a torrent, what happened was that it ended up providing a lot of advertising for the game. Look here
From the main guy of Carpe Fulgur (Carpe Fulgur localized Recettear)
The past five hours have been Recettear's strong sales period EVER. This is during Steam's "weak period" for people online, no less.
In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if the leak was acting as yet another form of advertising. Hmmmmmmm...
Anyway while Carpe Fulgur didn't want people pirating the game, they didn't deny (but acknowledged as seen above) that it was basically free advertising for the game and they're happy for it (take note that this means that some of the "pirates" actually ended up buying the game to support the independent company).
An important thing to note is this isn't an exact analogy either. KesPA did not steal or pirate Starcraft 1 copies from Blizzard, they merely organized and broadcasted "legally bought Starcraft 1" games (and of course they made money off of it too but Blizzard benefited too).
Now don't get me wrong, Blizzard has the right to sue and has the IP rights, etc. I'm not against Blizzard but I am simply against this pure KeSPA hate or pure "pro Blizzard"ness I see sometimes in these threads.
tl;dr - Look here - Carpe Fulgur had its localized version of Recettear leaked and pirated but they acknowledged that the torrent actually helped advertise Recettear. This is similar with KeSPA and Blizzard. While Blizzard has the right, everyone should at least acknowledged Blizzard benefited greatly from the "free advertising" KeSPA provided.
I didn't know 4.5 mil is 'half' of 12.5 million, that's amazing. Also, you forget most of these copies were sold before 2001, e-sports having little to do with sales. The game mostly sold because it was good for it's time, and it developed into a real e-sport because it was balanced, fun to watch and unique. And Blizzard made it so, not KeSPA.
The "piracy = advertising" argument only applies to obscure indie games, simply because noone knows about them, while a popular developer like Blizzard with the Warcraft title under it's belt and adverts on every major gaming website/magazine and needs none of that. Actually it hurts them because cheapskates and casuals who only play the singleplayer just get it for free and in BW's case both SP and MP because lol illegal servers. Even so, BW was heavily pirated even in Korea, I remember reading a while ago that the legit/pirated ratio was almost around 1:3.
Anyway, I really hope they start moving this along, but knowing KeSPA, they'll try to stall this as long as they can just to go out with a bang and hurt the future of e-sports. Damn shame what they've become.
Please cite your source about SC: BW selling the majority of the copies before 2001, if you cant, please take back that assumption because it doesnt bring anything useful to the discussion.
The counterpoint could be made as well, I would like to see the sources showing sales for the game when BW started to get really big on TV, I would bet you it would be a significant amount, and that it would be a tiny blip on the graph at most.
On February 01 2011 11:38 graph1k wrote: The counterpoint could be made as well, I would like to see the sources showing sales for the game when BW started to get really big on TV, I would bet you it would be a significant amount, and that it would be a tiny blip on the graph at most.
Nobody is making conclusions or arguments based in "imaginary" sellings in some stage of the game , only this guy (who by far is the most annoying one in this thread), so the counter is absolutely irrelevant to this topic. I have seen people who support Blizzard side with arguments but this one.....
Saw a couple people in the thread mention how good the publicity has been for Blizz. Was just pointing out that I have not seen any numbers on that either.
On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote: I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x
You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
On January 31 2011 17:55 dogabutila wrote: This is bullshit in it's entirety. If SK doesn't want to enforce what global IP rights laws would rule a clear violation of IP rights, then nobody should respect any IP's that SK has.
It's that simple, you cant rely on other countries to protect your product if you refuse to provide the same protections. There is no reason for other countries to protect your product if you do not protect theirs.
Nobody has violated Blizzard's IP rights. Your post is BS.
Have you read any of the earlier posts, or anything regarding copyrights in general?
The "Live user streams" on the right column of this site is a violation of Blizzard's rights. Any public presentation of SC1 or SC2, beyond "fair use", without Blizzard's consent is a violation. If Blizzard really wanted to, for strategic reasons, they could force the takedown of any live streaming.
Why don't you contact your lawyer and demand a change in the DMCA? Otherwise stop making fallacious statements and calling other people's posts BS.
That is the big question. Are user streams a violation of "IP" or not?
To quote NFL: "This telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience. Any other use of this telecast or of any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent, is prohibited."
So, we're not allowed to talk about what happened at the Probowl ...
At the very least, user streams broadcast Blizzard's artwork (unless you're talking about people discussing a game without showing it?) so it's akin to going to the Superbowl with your handcam and streaming the game.
On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote: I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x
You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
I need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check?
Blizzcon attendance this year was 27,000 (estimate). Granted it was spread across games but it shows US CAN draw the crowd. One of the GSL finals had only 1800 attendees. Maybe you should continue your attempts at "maturity" before commenting.
and Blizzard lawyers answered "They cannot address that in the middle of the lawsuit"
wtf?
a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2
so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
EDIT: OK my post was very anti Blizzard, so let me say that I do believe that Kespa/MBC/OGN SHOULD come to a compensation point (however that may be) with Blizzard so that they are happy, since it is their IP. However, they (defending parties) have stated many times that it is non-profit, and have given visibility into the money they bring in and the costs. So is the problem that they can't find a way to pay Blizzard for some broadcasting rights? I call bullshit.
Seriously, just charge Qook n show, Rush n Cashy, and all those other people paying for commercial time just a little bit more and give Blizzard that money and feed the hungry monster so we can live happily ever after and keep enjoying our BW.
EDIT2: In response to the post below me- then if it's about power, they should be suing Kespa and trying to remove them from the picture so they have control over the whole thing, not MBC/OGN for broadcasting rights. I'm not claiming to know the ins-and-outs, but it just sounds to me like they're trying to shove sc2 down everyone's throats
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
Notice every sentence in my post were questions besides the last sarcastic one... Of course Blizzard knows what is going on way better than I do, and surely they have clear goals - I would just love to know exactly what they were because they seem to not want to discuss them.
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
Notice every sentence in my post were questions besides the last sarcastic one... Of course Blizzard knows what is going on way better than I do, and surely they have clear goals - I would just love to know exactly what they were because they seem to not want to discuss them.
Why would they discuss them if they do not see fit? They do not owe any explanation. Surely your questions are valid but there is nobody who can answer them aside from Blizzard (who won't at least for the time being).
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
From and esports perspective, I personally don't mind Blizzard pushing for SC2 and trying to have BW flushed down the toilet so to speak. As much as I appreciate BW in terms of the greatness it has offered for over a decade, there is no way BW could further Esports anymore, especially outside Korea - and Korea is where things will get BIG first if they ever do. I witnessed a lot of discussion over this topic here on TL and, while I understand why BW aficionados (did I get that right?) are rooting for its survival on the current scale, the truth is that it is time to move on if the goal is to make things bigger. Therefore I am really hoping for Blizzard to succeed.
I also side with Blizzard when it comes to which company has the right to benefit from SC and SC2. It seems clear to me that, while KESPA did a lot of good in making BW bigger, Starcraft is indeed property of Blizzard and no entity should be entitled to benefit from it if Blizzard does not agree with it. I am no lawyer (although I have studied a bit of copyright/trademark/yaddayadda law) but to see the broadcasters call the shots just seems deeply wrong from a stakeholder's perspective.
On February 01 2011 23:34 Lotar wrote: At the very least, user streams broadcast Blizzard's artwork (unless you're talking about people discussing a game without showing it?) so it's akin to going to the Superbowl with your handcam and streaming the game.
Well, the problem isn't just about redistributing the IP but instead mostly about redistributing it FOR A PROFIT. It's usually acceptable to stream tournaments and use Blizzard artwork for non-profit purposes, and usually selling any derivative of Blizzard's IP will require their permission. Broadcasting tournaments on TV draws in revenue from advertisements and sponsors, and since OGN/MBC never completed their negotiations with Blizzard/Gretech, they never got their permission in the first place.
I think the IP case is equivalent to someone writing a fanfiction based on Starcraft. It's acceptable for them to just write with no profit in mind. However, once they start to sell the fanfiction, then they MUST ask for Blizzard's permission or else it's considered a violation of IP rights. Blizzard is thus free to attach any strings they want in exchange for this permission, such as requesting a share of any profits generated from the sale or a mandatory preview of the fanfiction.
The main problem with this case is that though OGN/MBC recognize that it is acceptable for them to request Blizzard's permission for broadcasting, they along with KeSPA disagree with many of the strings attached to this permission, such as how far "IP" is defined in regards to games and replays or the broadcasting fees that the stations must pay.
IMO, the debate shouldn't focus on whether or not Blizzard was correct in requiring OGN/MBC and KeSPA in acknowledging that they violated IP rights, since they never had permission in the first place. Instead, the debate should focus on the many conditions that Blizzard attached in exchange for granting IP permission. The requesting broadcasting fees are deceptively expensive, and it is perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to be against Blizzard/Gretech have full auditing powers over them. IMO, Blizzard/Gretech is trying to do too much at once for KeSPA to accept any of their conditions.
Also, I would like to restate that the BW to SC2 clause was from ONE contract to ONE company. Gretech hardly controlled a portion of the BW scene, especially after KeSPA pulled most of their players and teams out of the GOM Classic BW Tournament, which caused subsequent GOM BW tournaments to completely flop.
GOM was Blizzard's ONLY choice to broadcast SC2 in Korea, so OF COURSE they would want them to transition from BW to SC2. Heck, if I was Blizzard, there would be no reason for me not to make GOM switch to SC2. GOM is such a small company compared to OGN/MBC that their resources can't be devoted to both SC2 and BW, and their influence in the BW scene was pretty much negligible, especially since almost no players were associated with GOM tournaments after the GOM Classic incident. As a result, switching GOM from BW to SC2 can hardly be considered "killing BW" since they pretty much no longer had anything to do with the BW scene after being ostracized by KeSPA.
If the same clause was found in the contracts offered to OGN/MBC, then I think it would be justifiable to rage against Blizzard/Gretech. Also, the dates of Gretech's contracts might change my opinion on the matter. However, right now I see the BW to SC2 transition clause as a perfectly reasonable way for Blizzard to broadcast SC2 through their only partner in Korea, especially since the stall in the negotiations with OGN/MBC pretty much shut out any other viable alternative for broadcasting SC2.
And that's pretty much all my remaining thoughts on this issue.
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
From and esports perspective, I personally don't mind Blizzard pushing for SC2 and trying to have BW flushed down the toilet so to speak. As much as I appreciate BW in terms of the greatness it has offered for over a decade, there is no way BW could further Esports anymore, especially outside Korea - and Korea is where things will get BIG first if they ever do. I witnessed a lot of discussion over this topic here on TL and, while I understand why BW aficionados (did I get that right?) are rooting for its survival on the current scale, the truth is that it is time to move on if the goal is to make things bigger. Therefore I am really hoping for Blizzard to succeed.
I also side with Blizzard when it comes to which company has the right to benefit from SC and SC2. It seems clear to me that, while KESPA did a lot of good in making BW bigger, Starcraft is indeed property of Blizzard and no entity should be entitled to benefit from it if Blizzard does not agree with it. I am no lawyer (although I have studied a bit of copyright/trademark/yaddayadda law) but to see the broadcasters call the shots just seems deeply wrong from a stakeholder's perspective.
Do you really think that Blizzard is interested in building an e-sports scene?, their goal is selling more and more games ($$$$), that is why Korea is so special, they dont need to put so much effort and they can get in return so much money.
On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote: I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x
You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
I need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check?
Blizzcon attendance this year was 27,000 (estimate). Granted it was spread across games but it shows US CAN draw the crowd. One of the GSL finals had only 1800 attendees. Maybe you should continue your attempts at "maturity" before commenting.
On February 01 2011 19:38 KissBlade wrote: I don't really understand. Blizzard doesn't NEED Korea. Hell they can form a community in the US fine. If the money is here, players will come
Haha i thought i would be mature enough to not bite the "troll baits" but i give up :x
You need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check before you say these things again. GSL succeeding in the US? Now thats one that i didnt see coming
I need to gather all the facts and do a long hard reality check?
Blizzcon attendance this year was 27,000 (estimate). Granted it was spread across games but it shows US CAN draw the crowd. One of the GSL finals had only 1800 attendees. Maybe you should continue your attempts at "maturity" before commenting.
Blizzcon is a flawed example, it is a once upon a year happening, as you stated before is spread over multiple games and it is different. Why?Because it is not an E-sport thing, sure games are played there for the sake of being Blizzcon but people do not go there to watch E-sport. They go there to enjoy the community that is Blizzard, to find out about new upcoming Blizzard stuff, to meet other people who have common interests in Blizzard games. Using Blizzcon as a E-sport argument is unfound in that sense. Yes the GSL finals only had 1800 people, but that is because it is not hugely popular in Korea. Not to mention everything is centered around Seoul, youl have to find a location in America first where people would go to live GSL finals.
I agree that US can draw a crowd yes, but noone is going to risk an investment in this. Why?Because E-sports is not acceptable in America as of yet, in America(and virtually any other Western, or well non-Chinese/Southkorean country. There is huge stigma to the people who watch E-sports, they are ''geeks'' with no life, no girlfriend who live in their moms basement or something. This is not the case in South-Korea, hence its more attractive for investers to invest in South-Korea, as there is already a base amount of people who watch E-sports there relative to many other western countries. It is to risky(and frankly stupid) to attempt to invest into E-sports in a western country such as America, youl need huge resources for it and the benefits for it are lackluster. No sponsor will do this for as it is to risky. South-Korea is a different culture and has a different stance to E-sports then as country as America. Sure It can draw a crowd but if noone wants to invest in it then it won't happen.
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
From and esports perspective, I personally don't mind Blizzard pushing for SC2 and trying to have BW flushed down the toilet so to speak. As much as I appreciate BW in terms of the greatness it has offered for over a decade, there is no way BW could further Esports anymore, especially outside Korea - and Korea is where things will get BIG first if they ever do. I witnessed a lot of discussion over this topic here on TL and, while I understand why BW aficionados (did I get that right?) are rooting for its survival on the current scale, the truth is that it is time to move on if the goal is to make things bigger. Therefore I am really hoping for Blizzard to succeed.
I also side with Blizzard when it comes to which company has the right to benefit from SC and SC2. It seems clear to me that, while KESPA did a lot of good in making BW bigger, Starcraft is indeed property of Blizzard and no entity should be entitled to benefit from it if Blizzard does not agree with it. I am no lawyer (although I have studied a bit of copyright/trademark/yaddayadda law) but to see the broadcasters call the shots just seems deeply wrong from a stakeholder's perspective.
Do you really think that Blizzard is interested in building an e-sports scene?, their goal is selling more and more games ($$$$), that is why Korea is so special, they dont need to put so much effort and they can get in return so much money.
No, you are getting it wrong. Blizzard is very very very much interested into building an esports scene as big as possible because that would bring big, big money. You can see that clearly in the actions they have been taking since the SC2 launch and, to a lesser extent, in the WoW department too. They know all too well that popularity of a Blizzard game as an esport translates into significant revenues. Also note how they are trying to focus not just on Korea but on the foreign scene as well. I think that, at this point, when you say GomTV you might as well say "Blizzard".
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
From and esports perspective, I personally don't mind Blizzard pushing for SC2 and trying to have BW flushed down the toilet so to speak. As much as I appreciate BW in terms of the greatness it has offered for over a decade, there is no way BW could further Esports anymore, especially outside Korea - and Korea is where things will get BIG first if they ever do. I witnessed a lot of discussion over this topic here on TL and, while I understand why BW aficionados (did I get that right?) are rooting for its survival on the current scale, the truth is that it is time to move on if the goal is to make things bigger. Therefore I am really hoping for Blizzard to succeed.
I also side with Blizzard when it comes to which company has the right to benefit from SC and SC2. It seems clear to me that, while KESPA did a lot of good in making BW bigger, Starcraft is indeed property of Blizzard and no entity should be entitled to benefit from it if Blizzard does not agree with it. I am no lawyer (although I have studied a bit of copyright/trademark/yaddayadda law) but to see the broadcasters call the shots just seems deeply wrong from a stakeholder's perspective.
Do you really think that Blizzard is interested in building an e-sports scene?, their goal is selling more and more games ($$$$), that is why Korea is so special, they dont need to put so much effort and they can get in return so much money.
No, you are getting it wrong. Blizzard is very very very much interested into building an esports scene as big as possible because that would bring big, big money. You can see that clearly in the actions they have been taking since the SC2 launch and, to a lesser extent, in the WoW department too. They know all too well that popularity of a Blizzard game as an esport translates into significant revenues. Also note how they are trying to focus not just on Korea but on the foreign scene as well. I think that, at this point, when you say GomTV you might as well say "Blizzard".
the e-sports model in Korea is already built, so what is Blizzard going to build over there?? and they are just failing with SC2, because all that investment ($$$) in the GSL should bring incredible sellings of the game and that is not happening. They just want to control the stablished scene (I am not blaming them for that, it is business after all). I really didnt know that Blizzard was focusing in foreign e-sports, could you refer some link about it?
On February 02 2011 04:09 slappy wrote: so all the teams (Samsung, Airforce, etc), after Blizzard basically shuts down the whole set up they pay for (televised professional matches), are supposed to just bend over and get fucked in the ass (transition to sc2)?
I know it's more complicated than that, but seriously what does Blizzard expect to happen once they stop OGN/MBC from broadcasting? I wonder if they've really thought about it, or if they even care? Do they expect all the teams to just happily disband and all the players to play sc2, to lead to a sc2 scene that will dwarf the BW epoch?
Hi Blizzard, this is Starcraft, not Lemmings...
I think Blizzard has a clearer picture than you when it comes to this, I am pretty sure they have a clear plan and clear goals. This lawsuit is not about the 300,000,000 Won compensation and it is not even about BW vs SC2, it is about power and therefore money in the long run. There is no villain and no good guy here, it's just a clash between companies as other thousands that happen every single day across the globe. I found the OP and some posts informative but the discussing and speculating without having a way bigger knowledge of what is going on is a waste of time.
You are a 100% right, this is a fight about control and power, for Blizzard, I am sure they have a long time goal in order to define ( control the RTS community) which game should be the game with the Hype and of course the Big selling in the future, and every step they have made is following this goal, the problem for Blizzard is that because BW being controlled right now for external parties in Korea, that goal has been delayed (at least over there, a potential 40% of its market), if Blizz can force in anyway the transition between BW and SC2 they will do it, I suppose the stockholders are not very happy about SC2 in Korea so Blizzard is going to push harder everyday, right now they are trying to maintain a thin balance between PR and legal issues. For Kespa and the broadcasters is about its most important game in e-sports, if they lose this in a bad way, they are going to be submitted at whatever conditions Blizzard want, and Kespa could dissapear as it is now. Lets see what happens, as a gamer I dont like a company with the kind of control that Blizzard wants so I am with the broadcasters in this issue.
From and esports perspective, I personally don't mind Blizzard pushing for SC2 and trying to have BW flushed down the toilet so to speak. As much as I appreciate BW in terms of the greatness it has offered for over a decade, there is no way BW could further Esports anymore, especially outside Korea - and Korea is where things will get BIG first if they ever do. I witnessed a lot of discussion over this topic here on TL and, while I understand why BW aficionados (did I get that right?) are rooting for its survival on the current scale, the truth is that it is time to move on if the goal is to make things bigger. Therefore I am really hoping for Blizzard to succeed.
I also side with Blizzard when it comes to which company has the right to benefit from SC and SC2. It seems clear to me that, while KESPA did a lot of good in making BW bigger, Starcraft is indeed property of Blizzard and no entity should be entitled to benefit from it if Blizzard does not agree with it. I am no lawyer (although I have studied a bit of copyright/trademark/yaddayadda law) but to see the broadcasters call the shots just seems deeply wrong from a stakeholder's perspective.
Do you really think that Blizzard is interested in building an e-sports scene?, their goal is selling more and more games ($$$$), that is why Korea is so special, they dont need to put so much effort and they can get in return so much money.
No, you are getting it wrong. Blizzard is very very very much interested into building an esports scene as big as possible because that would bring big, big money. You can see that clearly in the actions they have been taking since the SC2 launch and, to a lesser extent, in the WoW department too. They know all too well that popularity of a Blizzard game as an esport translates into significant revenues. Also note how they are trying to focus not just on Korea but on the foreign scene as well. I think that, at this point, when you say GomTV you might as well say "Blizzard".
the e-sports model in Korea is already built, so what is Blizzard going to build over there?? and they are just failing with SC2, because all that investment ($$$) in the GSL should bring incredible sellings of the game and that is not happening. They just want to control the stablished scene (I am not blaming them for that, it is business after all). I really didnt know that Blizzard was focusing in foreign e-sports, could you refer some link about it?
The Esports model in Korea is indeed already established but that does not mean that it cannot grow further nor that it can act as a pioneer market for esports. Think of how much we, on TL, refer to Korea as the standard. Regarding the GSL, there was a topic some time ago in the SC2 General section that was dozens of pages long and was based on thin air. We have no idea how much money Blizzard has made or is planning to make out of the GSL. For all we know, they might be making a loss and be happy with it because their business plan provides for it. But if I were to speculate from the plans they released and their recent moves (foreigner house, hint of GSL stuff happening outside of Korea, the name of the GSL itself) I would say that to them this is just the beginning, that they have a years long plan involving the next expansions and that for the time being all they want is to make the GSL more popular in and outside Korea through the GSL. They do not care about the BW scene, but they know that having some big names switching to SC2 would make a huge difference, and so they are fighting for it. This is what I mean when I say that Blizzard is trying to focus on the foreign scene as well: it is clearly encouraging and pushing for more and more tournaments. Do you think that a game that came out half a year ago would be this represented in professional gaming events if there wasnt any pressure from Blizzard? Dont you see the increasingly high prize pools and sponsors? Korea is just the spearhead in my view.
Although I think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say they don't care about BW, which I think you doing so intentionally. Ideally it would be best if both BW and SC2 survived together, especially if Blizzard gets control of BW over Kespa, I mean they are different games and they would profit anyway no? Unless if they think that losing some fans due to dropping BW will be more profitable since they can focus on SC2 and get people to buy/play/watch SC2.
EPT
