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Then we got lucky that turkey etc didn't invade germany in the last couple of years, because NPD n shit, right?
If a country (russia) makes up bullshitpropaganda to basically insecure their own people in another country, its nothing less than the US did. Forging bullshitreasons to invade another country for whatever gain. The borders are not closed, the crimeans are welcome to leave, and russia could invite them "back home".
Using fearmongering to justify invasions and crimes against humanity is not exactly a new concept. Recent past has plenty of examples, starting by the holocaust (or germans invasion in poland), and obviously not ending here.
Interesting to see what the EU/US/UN will do if the ukraine pleads for outside help.
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I can't imagine why Russia coming to the support of civilians being attacked would be controversial, really it should be the duty of any country, in collaboration with the UN, to step in and protect civilians from unprovoked attacks regardless of who they are.
Although it would be kind of insane for Ukrainians to do any of that. Its up to their tenuous government to keep things civilized.
edit: Good point above though.
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On February 27 2014 23:44 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:28 r.Evo wrote:
But hey, minorities living in a country have no right to self-determination. And if they had one, they could ask the UN to enforce it because that's what the UN is for and fights for on a regular basis. Also, what the hell, they could just pack up and leave if they don't like what's going on in their country! Who do these people think they are? People? Ha! I could be completely wrong here, but aren't those people represented by their own democratically voted politicians? The "russian" side of the Ukraine surely voted as well, you make it seem like they are some supressed minority without any rights, but that doesn't seem to be the case, you also seem to forget that despite of what Russia is using as an excuse here no organized attacks on the russians have occured. According to Russia they feel "threatened", well according to russia jews felt threatened as well, but the organization of jews themselves in the Ukraine gave out a statement which basically said that people should relax more and that the fascist are a small minority in the country that isn't even anywhere close to being a big political power.
Sorry, you probably missed how this discussion started.
People "feeling threatened" or the "possibility of an escalation" is why Russia is 'flexing' right now, you're right there. There was some talk about how horrible and unjustifiable it would be if Russia intervenes and I brought up that all that needs to happen is protests escalating and/or the Russian minorities being attacked to justify an intervention.
Also, yes, "Someone else has done worse!" isn't so much of an argument but more a bad form of replying to a high-horse "invading any country for any reason is never justified!"; - apologies.
edit: Wait a second. Isn't the whole reason the Russian side is annoyed with this whole deal that they see Yanukovych as their democratically elected president which basically means that from their perspective kicking him out is neither legal, nor "representing the will of the people"? So much for being represented. I'm not exactly sure if there is a protocol for these types of scenarios. =P
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On February 27 2014 23:55 radscorpion9 wrote:
I can't imagine why Russia coming to the support of civilians being attacked would be controversial, really it should be the duty of any country, in collaboration with the UN, to step in and protect civilians from unprovoked attacks regardless of who they are.
Although it would be kind of insane for Ukrainians to do any of that. Its up to their tenuous government to keep things civilized.
edit: Good point above though.
Because no such attack is taking place or has any real indication of being about to take place.
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We are all talking about hypothetical situation. There are no attacks and probably never be but what if they did?
You cant deny that there are fascists/ neo nazi groups in Ukraine that hate Russians and could be insane enough to harm civilians.
Propaganda works both ways. Russia is doing their own thing and same with USA/EU.
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On February 27 2014 23:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
Or not to act, as it may be. In no world is it justified for another country to invade another, no matter what's done to their citizens.
On August 30 2013 02:42 Ghanburighan wrote:
Because of this, there is no point in waiting for the UN. They will merely stall and eventually veto, as they promised to do.
lol. i hope noone takes ghanburger seriously, he is the devils advocate. ;>
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On February 28 2014 00:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:55 radscorpion9 wrote:
I can't imagine why Russia coming to the support of civilians being attacked would be controversial, really it should be the duty of any country, in collaboration with the UN, to step in and protect civilians from unprovoked attacks regardless of who they are.
Although it would be kind of insane for Ukrainians to do any of that. Its up to their tenuous government to keep things civilized.
edit: Good point above though. Because no such attack is taking place or has any real indication of being about to take place.
Random lynchings of people by newly formed "militias" on the streets of Kiev:
+ Show Spoiler +
Proclaiming Stepan Bandera a hero of Ukraine:
+ Show Spoiler +www.youtube.com/watch?v=48D-7ZZieeE
The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńska, literally: Volhynian slaughter; Ukrainian: Волинська трагедія, Volyn tragedy) were part of an ethnic cleansing operation carried out in Nazi German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)'s North Command in the regions of Volhynia (Reichskommissariat Ukraine) and their South Command in Eastern Galicia (General Government) beginning in March 1943 and lasting until the end of 1944.[4][5][6] The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age.[7][8][9] Despite this, most of the victims were women and children.[4] According to Grzegorz Motyka, the actions of the UPA resulted in 40,000-60,000 Polish civilian deaths in Volhynia,[3] and from 30,000 to 40,000 in Eastern Galicia.[3][10] Other estimates place the upper bound at much higher levels (see table).
The killings were directly linked with the policies of the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its military arm - Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal specified at the Second Conference of the Stepan Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) during 17–23 February 1943, or at least in March 1943 was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state. Not limiting their activities to the purging of Polish civilians, the UPA also wanted to erase all traces of sustained Polish presence in the area.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On February 27 2014 22:04 Saryph wrote:
Sign of true heroes: Using sniper rifles to shoot the heads/necks of unarmed young women in white, with red crosses painted on their bodies, who are doing nothing other than trying to help the wounded.
pretty standard move for US/EU - set their snipers to attack protesters and then accuse local police
they did it in Lybia, Syria etc.
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^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
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I'm all for being critical about western foreign policy but to think that russia offers a viable alternative has to be a joke. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, led by a guy who actively prosecuted his opposition and tries to centralize power (and money) to a small group of confidantes, and somehow, he's the beacon of hope for the world?
Russia is currently supporting Assad, who's busy starving out women and childern, supported milosevic back in the day and is currently still occupying parts of another sovereign nation. US foreign policy can be and has been a disaster, but if any country in the world is playing pure geopolitics without any regards for morals, its Russia.
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I feel for the Ukrainian people and hope this ends somewhat well 
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On February 27 2014 23:49 Tula wrote:
As long as Crimea remains autonomous and their rights are not threatened (note a law forbidding Russian as a national language is not a step in the right direction)
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Russian was never forbidden in Ukraine and there are no intentions to forbid it now. I feel this is another piece of propaganda that is used to destabilize situation in the country.
Ukrainian is the only official language in Ukraine. This is written in our constitution and was present there since we adopted it in 1996. And everything was fine, people still used Russian in all parts of Ukraine without a problem. They just had to use Ukrainian in some formal situations.
In 2012, previous government decided to pass a law that would give Russian language a status of regional. Basically it would allow some regions to use Russian as official even though this contradicts our constitution. Practically, that law had very little impact because Russian was already used everywhere in those regions.
Less than a week ago, parliament had a vote and that law was properly canceled as unconstitutional. Now, many forces are exaggerating this fact and making various scary stories even though we were living fine without that law for more than 16 years.
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On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote:
^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
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On February 28 2014 00:30 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 22:04 Saryph wrote:
Sign of true heroes: Using sniper rifles to shoot the heads/necks of unarmed young women in white, with red crosses painted on their bodies, who are doing nothing other than trying to help the wounded. pretty standard move for US/EU - set their snipers to attack protesters and then accuse local police they did it in Lybia, Syria etc.
I've just noticed your country, so I can say nothing but you're one of the brainwashed people of Russia. I am so sorry you are a victim of the Russian propaganda. There is a thing called democracy, and if people's political views are different from your friend's, Putin, then such people are put into jail (Pussy Riot anyone? Mikhail Khodorkovsky? Ukrainian protesters?). And just to keep people's mouth shut, pro-Russian politicians just tell you they were in prison because of <insert random reason here> (e.g. fascists, vandals, US/West servants, etc).
I think there is a really bad interpretation of democracy in ex-communist countries, including mine, because if you have a different view, then you're often labelled as one of the above things.
Edit: Also, let me remind you one of the reasons why "Mother Russia" has lost the war. It's because it didn't know how to work with and for people, Soviet Russia only knows how to blackmail people, while US, as bad as it can be sometimes, leads much more balanced and mutually convenient policy towards other countries. Why am I telling you this? Because it's relevant for the current Ukrainian political crisis. Again, think why Russia is losing at the moment.
So to sum up what I'm trying to say, I don't think US/EU shot civil people in order to take down Yanukovych. I just think pro-Russian politicians are trying to lie people to make up for their own failure at the moment.
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On February 28 2014 00:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote:
^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia. Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid 
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On February 28 2014 01:04 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 00:51 m4ini wrote:On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote:
^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia. Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side. Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid
Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me.
There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
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It's pretty funny that these Russians and zeo still don't understand Westerners, they just don't get that they aren't going to convince us by ham-handedly trying to appropriate the Western rhetoric of human rights and rule of law. Man those Westerners, they love them some self-determination and protecting minorities - not like us, understand - so maybe we can confuse them if we keep bleating about fantasy fascist takeovers and self-determination. All this concern about roving bands of fascist thugs and worry about that poor Russian-speaking minority that has not been oppressed at all - it's no surprise that all the Russian stooges here have had nothing to say in the past, other than in defense, of the Putin government using roving bands of fascist thugs to beat up gay people and journalists / dissidents in Russia. You see, there's a difference between the not-real Ukrainian oppression of Russian-speakers and the actually real Russian oppression of gays and dissidents. They're not sure what it is, but they'll give you some mangled rhetoric that sounds like it could have come from someone actually concerned about human rights, but you can tell, nah, they don't.
And now we have simply false claims being thrown out because if you can't win, throw enough mud around and maybe no terrorize the crowd by randomly killing people from above. Justified by the Russian keyboard warriors because bullshit. one will win.
Sorry, Berkut snipers were not sent out to counter snipers in the ranks of the protesters. Berkut snipers were sent out to
Russia is well within its rights to invade another sovereign country because reasons that were among those the US enumerated when it invaded Iraq. So, guys, guess George Bush was right then? Right, r.Evo? Self-determination of the Kurds and the Shiites and all that. Saddam had laws against minority languages and all the rest of things being thrown out here as justification for Russia to wage a war of aggression against the Ukraine. If it's good for Russia, it's good for the US... right? In fact the US invasion of Iraq would be even more justified then, the US invaded not to "help" people of its own ethnic majority identity, it invaded Iraq to "help" bronzeish-skinned people like the Kurds, according to the US government. Russia is just "protecting" people of its own ethnic majority identity. If the eastern Ukrainians were speakers of a Turkic language and had darker skin would Russia still be so eager to "protect" them and would you guys with your garbage about how Russia is justified because fake oppression still be so eager to defend Russia?
r.Evo you should be ashamed of yourself for specious stuff you've put up here.
At the very least I find it really, really hard to argue against the Russians being the "good guys" here.
And that's why it is really, really hard for anyone to take you seriously when you say stuff that is so patently ridiculous.
Your standard of self-determination is quite frankly fucking ridiculous, the Russian-speakers of the Ukraine are not worried that they're going to be oppressed by the Ukrainian-speakers, they're pissed that they can't oppress the Ukrainian-speakers anymore. We can't dominate the politics of the country any more for our own selfish, corrupt, and immoral gain so we're going to leave. They're oppressing us by not letting us do that anymore! We're scared that we're going to get the shitty end of the stick we've been giving everyone else so we're taking our ball and going home, it's an expression of our inalienable rights!
Pretty much the same argument used by the Confederates in the American Civil War, just as crap now as it was then.
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On February 28 2014 01:12 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 01:04 zeo wrote:On February 28 2014 00:51 m4ini wrote:On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote:
^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia. Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side. Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me. There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then.
I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground.
Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did:
"Whatever these people want, I want the opposite"
Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
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On February 27 2014 19:17 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 18:22 mahrgell wrote:
Sounds like what usually happens with North Korea doing some weird shit and spontaneous US-South Korean trainings.
So boring stuff, but everyone likes to show off a bit and pretends to be supermegaawesome.
Btw:
as it wasnt mentioned: Berkut was dissolved yesterday by the new minister of internal affairs. Well.. they ould have been useful now! If I understand things correctly Russia is making these moves to defend the Russian speaking population of Ukraine, so comparing it to NK/SK might not be a smart move. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the majority of a certain area is Russian speaking (aka eastern Ukraine) they have all the rights in the world to be protected of the Ukrainian speaking population of the west, assuming they feel threatened and/or not represented in their parliament. At the very least I find it really, really hard to argue against the Russians being the "good guys" here.
When your local minority in another country can't get their representative to be the head of the state you don't just send your troops in so they can help break away. By your logic Turkey should send their troops over as well to protect Crimean Tatars.
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On February 28 2014 02:16 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2014 01:12 m4ini wrote:On February 28 2014 01:04 zeo wrote:On February 28 2014 00:51 m4ini wrote:On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote:
^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia. Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side. Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me. There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing. Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then. I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground. Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did: "Whatever these people want, I want the opposite" Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals. The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
And where, pray tell, did you look?
(Realize that again referencing youtube videos will only further validate the notion that you are arguing on behalf of a bullshit agenda.)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D1N8TUX.png)
