|
|
Russian Federation117 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:On March 08 2014 03:51 FatCat_13 wrote:
Big guy taking a sweety from a small guy. Happens from time to time, let's be real.
The thing is nobody gives a shit about Crimea outside of the Crimea itself. And those poor Crimean guys are smart enough to take an opportunity to get some oily-oily dollars - who's gonna blame them for it?
I am not sure I completely understand the russian interest in taking Crimea into Russia beyond satisfying Putin's ego though. But he's got a big one so I guess it might be true reason. Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger? There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy, especially if it's territory that was somehow lost. We're not in middle ages. Noone here wants to fucking war or other shit because of part of country who is collapsed anyway. Of course, almost everyone has friends, relatives or some links to Ukraine but thing is that if Crimea could be like Taiwan for China, that could be way better. And one more thing. We can't call it as annexy. It's reunion and there is little difference :p.
Oh, Reunion, what a trick! So you're okay with someone knocking your door and saying they want to take a part of your appartments cause it was theirs like 10 years ago? Cause you know, reunion and all the stuff.
|
A Reuters reporter on the scene says armed men “thought to be Russian” have entered a Ukrainian military post in Crimea “and take control, no shots fired.”
Updated at 8.08pm GMT
8.02pm GMT
ABC News cites an officer at Belbek military base, the site of a tense standoff between Ukrainian and Russian troops earlier this week, as confirming the base at Yukharina Balka has been entered by Russian troops:
The Ukrainian troops at the stormed Sevastopol base have gone into a bunker, the deputy commander of nearby Belbek base tells @ABC.
— Alexander Marquardt (@MarquardtA) March 7, 2014
7.59pm GMT
Time magazine correspondent Simon Shuster picks up on an Interfax-Ukraine report that Russian troops have entered a Ukrainian base in Crimea, at Yukharina Balka, just southwest of Sevastopol.
Shuster cites an unnamed Ukrainian air force officer as confirming the report:
Ukraine air force Colonel tells to TIME that Russian commander in charge of siege now demanding Ukraine forces lay down arms and surrender
— Simon Shuster (@shustry) March 7, 2014
CBS News cites a “Ukrainian press spokesperson” as confirming the report:
#Ukraine #Crimea Armed men break down gate of Ukrainian base. Per Uk press spox 40 Ukrainian military inside. Now negotiating.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 08 2014 03:43 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:43 oneofthem wrote:On March 08 2014 01:29 nunez wrote:On March 08 2014 01:14 oneofthem wrote:On March 08 2014 01:11 Lord Tolkien wrote:On March 08 2014 01:01 oneofthem wrote:
the only thing we don't doubt is that we gotta doubt. not sure if this is worse than simple brainwashing. lol There are plenty of avenues to learn about the issue for yourself, outside of standard news sources. There's a great deal of history involved with the Crimea (if you were starting there, start with the Crimean War) that ties it to Russia ethnically, historically, and culturally (Tolstoy). In conjunction with major Russian security interests in the region (Sevastopol), and the events leading up the crisis, there's a nexus of interests that make intervention in the Crimea, though a heavy risk for Russia, entirely understandable and consistent. On above tweet: It's pretty expected, and is not necessarily the result of Russian pressure (and I'd actually be surprised if it was). My guess it was a localized decision and pressuring. sure. but posters in doubt are mostly already operating with a belief of western conspiracy/manipulation. doubting western manipulation or are you talking about its extent? i don't know what some people's conception of 'the west' even is. is it a caricature of Imperialist Pig Americans or something out of the Jewish Illuminati playbook like you hear in ny bars? either way it's this shadowy figure that combats the russians or another opposing actor in a game of risk. sure, the cia is there in some capacity no doubt. but if you take sides based purely on a framework of west vs russia, you are not looking at the content of their respective influence. the west, for example, may wish for some positive reforms, while putin is engaged in teh old nationalism to combat internal weakness routine. Western media would be the example that I would point out. OF course they are not as manipulative as Russian ones, but their work with the sources they have is often rather creative and ow they pick their sources is also sometimes suspect. And by West I mean in general EU(depending on the context it might exclude some/all post-communist countries) + the countries like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,... + US, Canada, Australia,... the suspension of judgment required to take an ambivalent stance regarding the actions of putin russia is quite high. this is not relativism yea it is just a cognitive block. as for relativism i only use it becus u guys were using it and as far as i can tell it amounts to either "the west is equally bad" or " the west is equally untrustworthy " with the implicit assumption that the antirussian story is automatically tainted western
|
Oh please, do you really think that ordinary Russians will suffer after the West imposes those mythical sanctions? Maybe large Russians companies would lose some income but Russian citizens will be happy that Putin the hero defended their brethren in Crimea.
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing.
|
On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing.
So if the Ukrainians had fired then its storming, but because they continue to exercise self control to Bhuddist levels its just 'muscle flexing'?
|
Oh please, do you really think that ordinary Russians will suffer after the West imposes those mythical sanctions? Maybe large Russians companies would lose some income but Russian citizens will be happy that Putin the hero defended their brethren in Crimea.
Gazprom lost 60 billions already on the 2nd day. Would not call that "some income".
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Oh please, do you really think that ordinary Russians will suffer after the West imposes those mythical sanctions? Maybe large Russians companies would lose some income but Russian citizens will be happy that Putin the hero defended their brethren in Crimea.
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing.
they would suffer depending on the sanction but they might not blame putin at all
|
On March 08 2014 05:10 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:43 mcc wrote:On March 08 2014 01:43 oneofthem wrote:On March 08 2014 01:29 nunez wrote:On March 08 2014 01:14 oneofthem wrote:On March 08 2014 01:11 Lord Tolkien wrote:On March 08 2014 01:01 oneofthem wrote:
the only thing we don't doubt is that we gotta doubt. not sure if this is worse than simple brainwashing. lol There are plenty of avenues to learn about the issue for yourself, outside of standard news sources. There's a great deal of history involved with the Crimea (if you were starting there, start with the Crimean War) that ties it to Russia ethnically, historically, and culturally (Tolstoy). In conjunction with major Russian security interests in the region (Sevastopol), and the events leading up the crisis, there's a nexus of interests that make intervention in the Crimea, though a heavy risk for Russia, entirely understandable and consistent. On above tweet: It's pretty expected, and is not necessarily the result of Russian pressure (and I'd actually be surprised if it was). My guess it was a localized decision and pressuring. sure. but posters in doubt are mostly already operating with a belief of western conspiracy/manipulation. doubting western manipulation or are you talking about its extent? i don't know what some people's conception of 'the west' even is. is it a caricature of Imperialist Pig Americans or something out of the Jewish Illuminati playbook like you hear in ny bars? either way it's this shadowy figure that combats the russians or another opposing actor in a game of risk. sure, the cia is there in some capacity no doubt. but if you take sides based purely on a framework of west vs russia, you are not looking at the content of their respective influence. the west, for example, may wish for some positive reforms, while putin is engaged in teh old nationalism to combat internal weakness routine. Western media would be the example that I would point out. OF course they are not as manipulative as Russian ones, but their work with the sources they have is often rather creative and ow they pick their sources is also sometimes suspect. And by West I mean in general EU(depending on the context it might exclude some/all post-communist countries) + the countries like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,... + US, Canada, Australia,... the suspension of judgment required to take an ambivalent stance regarding the actions of putin russia is quite high. this is not relativism yea it is just a cognitive block. as for relativism i only use it becus u guys were using it and as far as i can tell it amounts to either "the west is equally bad" or " the west is equally untrustworthy " with the implicit assumption that the antirussian story is automatically tainted western
Oh, I do not take ambivalent stance on their actions. I take ambivalent stance on different things as I explained in my recent posts. And if you read them you should know that I do not consider West equally as bad in general, purely in international arena I consider them possibly worse (which can change if actual deadly violence erupts in Ukraine) and definitely as big hypocrites as the Russians.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:07 FatCat_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:On March 08 2014 03:51 FatCat_13 wrote:
Big guy taking a sweety from a small guy. Happens from time to time, let's be real.
The thing is nobody gives a shit about Crimea outside of the Crimea itself. And those poor Crimean guys are smart enough to take an opportunity to get some oily-oily dollars - who's gonna blame them for it?
I am not sure I completely understand the russian interest in taking Crimea into Russia beyond satisfying Putin's ego though. But he's got a big one so I guess it might be true reason. Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger? There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy, especially if it's territory that was somehow lost. We're not in middle ages. Noone here wants to fucking war or other shit because of part of country who is collapsed anyway. Of course, almost everyone has friends, relatives or some links to Ukraine but thing is that if Crimea could be like Taiwan for China, that could be way better. And one more thing. We can't call it as annexy. It's reunion and there is little difference :p. Oh, Reunion, what a trick! So you're okay with someone knocking your door and saying they want to take a part of your appartments cause it was theirs like 10 years ago? Cause you know, reunion and all the stuff.
Dude, all my friends and relatives in Ukraine and in Crimea totally don't care.
They live same life as before, but they don't mind in what country do they live - Soviet Union, Ukraine, independent Crimea or Russia. They give absolutely no fucks about it, because they know that it's basically same. If they can work, have home, food and stable stuff - that's all what they want. Not fucking war or other shit.
You're from Moscow or not? If yes, then you probably know how do people react about it here. We will support every decision which will Crimeans make. Support every decision which will Ukranian parlament make IF they will finally get their brains and announce impeachment for Yanukovich. After it i will agree that they're legitimate.
Thanks, dude. Have to wait a bit though, will ask my dudes there to make sure that it's real.
UPD:.
Asked some familiar faces, they're saying that it might be fake because Interfax Ukraine is absolutely unreliable source. And other sources use their news. So, need to wait, yes.
|
On March 08 2014 05:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:07 FatCat_13 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:On March 08 2014 03:51 FatCat_13 wrote:
Big guy taking a sweety from a small guy. Happens from time to time, let's be real.
The thing is nobody gives a shit about Crimea outside of the Crimea itself. And those poor Crimean guys are smart enough to take an opportunity to get some oily-oily dollars - who's gonna blame them for it?
I am not sure I completely understand the russian interest in taking Crimea into Russia beyond satisfying Putin's ego though. But he's got a big one so I guess it might be true reason. Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger? There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy, especially if it's territory that was somehow lost. We're not in middle ages. Noone here wants to fucking war or other shit because of part of country who is collapsed anyway. Of course, almost everyone has friends, relatives or some links to Ukraine but thing is that if Crimea could be like Taiwan for China, that could be way better. And one more thing. We can't call it as annexy. It's reunion and there is little difference :p. Oh, Reunion, what a trick! So you're okay with someone knocking your door and saying they want to take a part of your appartments cause it was theirs like 10 years ago? Cause you know, reunion and all the stuff. Dude, all my friends and relatives in Ukraine and in Crimea totally don't care. They live same life as before, but they don't mind in what country do they live - Soviet Union, Ukraine, independent Crimea or Russia. They give absolutely no fucks about it, because they know that it's basically same. If they can work, have home, food and stable stuff - that's all what they want. Not fucking war or other shit.
Seems like enough Russian soldiers in the Ukrainian army do care, otherwise they would have followed the example of the ex-Admiral and 'defected.'
. Support every decision which will Ukranian parlament make IF they will finally get their brains and announce impeachment for Yanukovich.
...what?
|
Asked some familiar faces, they're saying that it might be fake because Interfax Ukraine is absolutely unreliable source. And other sources use their news. So, need to wait, yes.
Okay, i'm all for being careful n stuff, but..
Reuters, which has a reporter at the scene, has filed a longer report on the incident at the Ukrainian military post southwest of Sevastopol:
“Armed men thought to be Russians drove a truck into a Ukrainian missile defence post in the Crimea region on Friday and took control without a shot being fired,” a Reuters reporter on the scene said.
I don't know where that "they're quoting" stuff comes from, but it's not true.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:25 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 05:07 FatCat_13 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:On March 08 2014 03:51 FatCat_13 wrote:
Big guy taking a sweety from a small guy. Happens from time to time, let's be real.
The thing is nobody gives a shit about Crimea outside of the Crimea itself. And those poor Crimean guys are smart enough to take an opportunity to get some oily-oily dollars - who's gonna blame them for it?
I am not sure I completely understand the russian interest in taking Crimea into Russia beyond satisfying Putin's ego though. But he's got a big one so I guess it might be true reason. Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger? There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy, especially if it's territory that was somehow lost. We're not in middle ages. Noone here wants to fucking war or other shit because of part of country who is collapsed anyway. Of course, almost everyone has friends, relatives or some links to Ukraine but thing is that if Crimea could be like Taiwan for China, that could be way better. And one more thing. We can't call it as annexy. It's reunion and there is little difference :p. Oh, Reunion, what a trick! So you're okay with someone knocking your door and saying they want to take a part of your appartments cause it was theirs like 10 years ago? Cause you know, reunion and all the stuff. Dude, all my friends and relatives in Ukraine and in Crimea totally don't care. They live same life as before, but they don't mind in what country do they live - Soviet Union, Ukraine, independent Crimea or Russia. They give absolutely no fucks about it, because they know that it's basically same. If they can work, have home, food and stable stuff - that's all what they want. Not fucking war or other shit. Seems like enough Russian soldiers in the Ukrainian army do care, otherwise they would have followed the example of the ex-Admiral and 'defected.' Show nested quote +
. Support every decision which will Ukranian parlament make IF they will finally get their brains and announce impeachment for Yanukovich.
...what?
You really think that their new government is legitimate?
Before previous one was dethroned? Like honestly?
It's not middle ages when you could kill previous king, make coup d'etat and be new king.
Rada has to announce impeachment for Yanukovich, then Turchinov will have at least some legitimate power.
Before it, he's just for lulz there and they can't even switch to 2004 Consitution because president has to sign it.
|
On March 08 2014 05:31 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:25 Sub40APM wrote:On March 08 2014 05:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 05:07 FatCat_13 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:On March 08 2014 03:51 FatCat_13 wrote:
Big guy taking a sweety from a small guy. Happens from time to time, let's be real.
The thing is nobody gives a shit about Crimea outside of the Crimea itself. And those poor Crimean guys are smart enough to take an opportunity to get some oily-oily dollars - who's gonna blame them for it?
I am not sure I completely understand the russian interest in taking Crimea into Russia beyond satisfying Putin's ego though. But he's got a big one so I guess it might be true reason. Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger? There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy, especially if it's territory that was somehow lost. We're not in middle ages. Noone here wants to fucking war or other shit because of part of country who is collapsed anyway. Of course, almost everyone has friends, relatives or some links to Ukraine but thing is that if Crimea could be like Taiwan for China, that could be way better. And one more thing. We can't call it as annexy. It's reunion and there is little difference :p. Oh, Reunion, what a trick! So you're okay with someone knocking your door and saying they want to take a part of your appartments cause it was theirs like 10 years ago? Cause you know, reunion and all the stuff. Dude, all my friends and relatives in Ukraine and in Crimea totally don't care. They live same life as before, but they don't mind in what country do they live - Soviet Union, Ukraine, independent Crimea or Russia. They give absolutely no fucks about it, because they know that it's basically same. If they can work, have home, food and stable stuff - that's all what they want. Not fucking war or other shit. Seems like enough Russian soldiers in the Ukrainian army do care, otherwise they would have followed the example of the ex-Admiral and 'defected.'
. Support every decision which will Ukranian parlament make IF they will finally get their brains and announce impeachment for Yanukovich.
...what? You really think that their new government is legitimate? Before previous one was dethroned? Like honestly? It's not middle ages when you could kill previous king, make coup d'etat and be new king. Rada has to announce impeachment for Yanukovich, then Turchinov will have at least some legitimate power. Before it, he's just for lulz there and they can't even switch to 2004 Consitution because president has to sign it.
Who is the new King, the guy who sets up elections for May 25th?
|
On March 08 2014 05:12 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing. So if the Ukrainians had fired then its storming, but because they continue to exercise self control to Bhuddist levels its just 'muscle flexing'?
Russians didn't fire either. I'm not saying it's a peaceful discussion between both sides but in my opinion "storm" is an exaggeration. If this is a storm then how would you call a real combat?
|
On March 08 2014 02:53 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:47 Lord Tolkien wrote:On March 08 2014 02:38 oneofthem wrote:On March 08 2014 02:19 Lord Tolkien wrote:On March 08 2014 01:27 oneofthem wrote:
sure you can doubt the details of events, and it's not like ukraine is some well run model state with entirely politically virtuous people, but the basic situation is undoubtedly russian operated intrusion. the 'west', whatever that may mean, is certainly involved but that does not then mean their project is bad.
posters who claim relativism basically want to see the situation as two strong and shadowy figures dueling it out, while having no sense of the real lives affected by this fiasco that will certainly not benefit from putin's behavior.
not that choosing teh west will save ukraine automatically, but it certainly stands a better chance at reform if it is brought within actual civilization. The first bit: the West is a colloquial IR term that generally refers to the United States and NATO (specifically Western & Central Europe), and was used to backdrop against the Communist "East". East vs. West is a pretty classic Cold War dichotomy. There has been some general expansion of the term recently to include Japan and South Korea, which means it'll go the way of other Cold War relics like First/Second/Third world differentiation and lose it's relevant meaning. The highlighted bit amuses the fk out of me, and reminds me of, oh, something something over a century ago. There is so much...arrogance in that one sentence, I'm impressed. surely arrogance would not obscure the fact that the russian govt is not exactly good for its people. i don't have an anti-russian as culture bias so much as i have one against their failed state that holds the people back. And I have no love for Russia or it's government, but you just conflated the Europe as civilization and Russia as...a lack of civilization? There are enough negative connotations here. Fact of the matter is, Russia isn't very civil.
But the dashcam footage is hilarious.
This may sound stupid but why not just sell crimea plus a little section to connect crimea to russia to russia at an ultra premium.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they are 'traveling' to the bases
|
On March 08 2014 05:33 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:12 Sub40APM wrote:On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing. So if the Ukrainians had fired then its storming, but because they continue to exercise self control to Bhuddist levels its just 'muscle flexing'? Russians didn't fire either. I'm not saying it's a peaceful discussion between both sides but in my opinion "storm" is an exaggeration. If this is a storm then how would you call a real combat?
The fricking same?
What the hell would you call it then? "Inviting themselves for a cup of tea"? Mate we're talking taking control of a foreign military basis here. On absolutely no legal basis, not to mention that there WOULD have been shots if the ukrainians would've chosen to shoot. Which they had every right in the world to.
|
On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Oh please, do you really think that ordinary Russians will suffer after the West imposes those mythical sanctions? Maybe large Russians companies would lose some income but Russian citizens will be happy that Putin the hero defended their brethren in Crimea.
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing.
Russia would probably collapse economically after a few weeks.
|
On March 08 2014 05:33 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:12 Sub40APM wrote:On March 08 2014 05:10 Sent. wrote:
Polish media report about "storming the Ukrainian base" too but it sounds like an exaggeration since the article doesn't mention any regular combat, just usual muscle flexing. So if the Ukrainians had fired then its storming, but because they continue to exercise self control to Bhuddist levels its just 'muscle flexing'? Russians didn't fire either. I'm not saying it's a peaceful discussion between both sides but in my opinion "storm" is an exaggeration. If this is a storm then how would you call a real combat?
Russians fired almost no shots when they muscle flexed their way into Czechoslovakia in 1968, but if someone described it as "Russians storm Prague" then I would find it a reasonable description.
Real combat is real combat.
|
On March 08 2014 04:40 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:57 Maenander wrote:
Don't you think the Russian populace would be very thankful if their country gets bigger?
There are countless examples in history where that worked, somehow annexing stuff makes people happy Yes, in the history of the 18th century. But in today's age it doesn't help the people of Russia very much that they now have a new awesome peninsula if they're suffering economic sanctions and diplomatic damage that cripples their (barely existent) economy even further. To be honest I think Putin's Russia is bound to collapse over the next few decades. And I'm a little scared about that scenario because under Gorbachev the USSR imploded, but under Putin it will probably end in a little more explosive fashion.
In the 18th century Russia did not even possess any semblance of national consciousness apart from the religious identification with which they self-consciously distinguished themselves from the Tartars. The rise of the Petrograd Intelligentsia at the end of the 19th century gave impetus to the rise of Pan-Slavic ideology promoted by the bourgeois press, but these notions operated in increasingly influential but demographically narrow circles even by 1914.
However, I think most people have missed the big but obvious point about the tendencies of Russian history: Russian autocracy and Russian "aggressiveness" in the foreign sphere have traditionally incarnated opposing strains in Russian history. Autocratic Russian Tsars have traditionally tended towards peace and stability in Europe, whereas Tsars more susceptible to modernising influences have tranditionally been inclined towards more aggressive foreign policies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
