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On October 10 2013 14:58 koreasilver wrote:
Yeah, after rereading it a few times I think it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Oov condemning just for playing with Savior, which is far more reasonable than condemning the entirety of the streaming ex-pro community. I still think it's nonsense though, even if we were to interpret Oov more favourably, no matter how understandable his sentiments may be.
I don't think it's nonsense to say that certain people shouldn't associate themselves with certain people if they care about the integrity of the scene, what savior did in respect to the match making in the past is long past yes, but his behavior while he's been streaming on Afreeca has been pretty consistently bad, not showing any remorse or apologizing for what he did. If Bisu is going to stream playing with Savior with the sole goal of making money for himself / cashing in on the old rivalry then there is some ground to say that he shouldn't do that, if Savior uses the platform to stop being such an asshole then maybe it could be something good.
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I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
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wonder if he'd be happier if Bisu had chosen the option of playing a game he doesn't enjoy in front of 5 people at the OGN studio
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On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote:
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.
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On October 10 2013 15:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote:
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me. I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.
Well Bisu has always been quiet, so none of us really know what he thinks about what happened during that scandal. I do hope Bisu rethinks his relationship with Savior if it turns out they are on friendly terms.
My point is oov's way of saying things in this situation isn't right unless he knows exactly what is going on between Savior and all the former pros he has played with in Afreeca. I don't hate oov, I'm a SKT person and I adore him, but Bisu was SKT and a long time member, and someone instrumental to SKT's success. I know oov always has his way of saying things, but this isn't just another Pro that retired, this is Bisu.
Savior has more then gotten what he has deserved and he shouldn't ever be given anymore attention. I'm just hoping oov is more angry with Savior then he is with former pros that happen to run into him in Afreeca.
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I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.
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On October 10 2013 15:59 figq wrote:
I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.
I think he tried to join but the sonicTV viewers still hates savior Sonic didn't allow him to play on his events
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
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On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
I think it's alot more like "Savior gtfo of Afreeca" would be the attitutde imo, instead of this other thing.
Thinking it through, I can understand a bit better why OOV wouldnt want bisu to stream while playing matches with savior
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On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
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On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
would u still think that, if oov only meant that playing vs savior is a bad idea(which is completely understandable), remember the translation said they havnt played yet so its kinda more of a heavy suggestion, also its unclear what he meant on the afreeca thing.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol
but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact...
bisu playing savior on stream would be a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he wouldn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...
and just because gangs being there enabled savior to do what he did it's not like they put a gun to his head lol
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I find it funny how people are screaming "oov is a jerk for saying this stuff when he doesn't know what's really going on"
when we don't even really know what he meant.
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On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
Are you downs? Match-fixing/betting usually means mafia involvement. I'm sorry if you think corporate misdoings is the real evil of society, #soedgy #saviorisscarface #fkskt.
User was warned for this post
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On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
and Oov is the retarded one?
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On October 10 2013 16:57 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition). yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact... bisu playing savior on stream is a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he doesn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...
In the other thread, (bisu is streaming!) someone said that some fans suggested it and bisu said he didnt really want to. If thats the case i think hes already knows its a bad idea, and it might have just leaked around and turned into bisu is playing savior through misguided whispers
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Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.
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On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.
lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.
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Ma Bonjovi aside, this attack on BW streaming reveals that oov or KeSPA by extension can see that SC2 is a dead end for them.
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On October 10 2013 17:10 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA. lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.
thank you putting it a cool head manner, i refrained from replying
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EPT
