It's from one question in iloveoov's new interview. The interview is too long so I only pick this question to translate. iloveoov basically says that he likes SKT Parting's way of doing things. Players should be more dramatic in the interview to attract popularity and make storylines. Well, as an example, iloveoov starts to condemn Bisu's potential relationship with sAviOr in the same interview.
Q: Let's talk about Bisu's retirement.
iloveoov: It's regretful. Since he didn't retire in a good time, it's even more regretful. Recently, I heard that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr in his stream, if it is true, then they are the same kind of person now. After the match fixing scandal, three b-teamers in our team went to me, cried, and asked me if it's still possible to play the game anymore. It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now. I know that many retired players do streaming on Afreeca, but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this. I am still angry about that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr. I really hope this won't happen.
i thought it was pretty well known that the two were good friends back then despite their rivalry? i guess this implies they still are and some people dont like the association, though either way if i get to see good games i dont really care
Hmm....this is kinda sad, I don't think Bisu should be treated wrongly for wanting to play vs sAviOr, I mean hell, who wouldn't want to play vs sAviOr ? It's like the final evil boss to beat in BW. :O
Considering the amount of well known "hyung" in the scene who have condemned savior in the past (former CJ head coach, KT head coach, Kim carrier, OGN castors, etc...) I think associating with savior would be PR suicide.
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote: Guilty by association?
but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?
That's the part I am not sure. I think it's the former. Hope someone with good Korean to clarify this.
EDIT: After re-reading carefully, I think this interpretation is not entirely accurate, see here.
From what I can interpret from the original Korean source, he seems to focus on Savior specifically.
He says he would be angry if Bisu played with Savior. This is where the "then they are the same person" quote applies. I get the impression that he is most upset about Bisu possibly being friendly with Savior, rather than the actual playing of the game.
The other quote regarding "caring about e-sports": 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. It seems a little weird in context. The way he leads into it, I think he has the impression that all of the retired pros playing on Afreeca are being chummy with Savior, and so that makes all of it bad for e-sports, etcetera.
So basically, iloveoov really doesn't like Savior, and doesn't like people being friendly with him.
Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports
Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote: Guilty by association?
but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?
That's the part I am not sure. I think it's the former. Hope someone with good Korean to clarify this.
From what I can interpret from the original Korean source, he seems to focus on Savior specifically.
He says he would be angry if Bisu played with Savior. This is where the "then they are the same person" quote applies. I get the impression that he is most upset about Bisu possibly being friendly with Savior, rather than the actual playing of the game.
The other quote regarding "caring about e-sports": 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. It seems a little weird in context. The way he leads into it, I think he has the impression that all of the retired pros playing on Afreeca are being chummy with Savior, and so that makes all of it bad for e-sports, etcetera.
So basically, iloveoov really doesn't like Savior, and doesn't like people being friendly with him.
Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports
Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports
If this is true, I think Oov is simply undermining BW players. Whether or not it is his scheme to uplift SC2 status in Korea because of his recent re-affiliation with SKT and that maybe the upper management coerce him to state those words, this is just plainly wrong on so many levels to speak such vile terms regarding the retired Afreeca BJs like that.
But then again I understand his feelings, sAviOr pretty much ripped Bonjwa-hood right from his hands. Maybe he still have a few antipathy toward MJY.
oh ffs... hating savior for the things that savior was involved in is one thing... hating on another famous player for merely having a positive relationship with savior is a complete other thing.
iloveoov, if you love victory so much, why not love your ex-teammate?
EDIT: I guarantee you he wouldn't have said these things about Bisu if Bisu hadn't retired yet.
What stupid stupid comments. Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote: What stupid stupid comments. Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.
It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote: What stupid stupid comments. Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.
It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.
But I mean like Falling said...according to the translation he is saying that retired players shouldn't be streaming on Afreeca. Though the way it's worded doesn't really make sense. Hopefully someone can double check the translation.
I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but... It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote: What stupid stupid comments. Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.
It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.
But I mean like Falling said...according to the translation he is saying that retired players shouldn't be streaming on Afreeca. Though the way it's worded doesn't really make sense. Hopefully someone can double check the translation.
Yeah I dunno :/
On October 10 2013 09:10 PassiveAce wrote: I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but... It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.
Eh, I understand the "hate" for sAviOr, but there's nothing wrong with Bisu playing with him. =\ Making too big of a deal out of it, IMHO. Sure, it will turn off some viewers and whatnot, but it really is an overreaction.
Anyway, SC2's lack of success has little to do with player dramatic storylines and personality. People need to stop blaming everything that is not the game itself. SC2 is lucky to have been graced by so many legends, even if they performed poorly.
im dissapointed ini loveoov here. He made this statement cleary, whether by his own decision or Kespa influence, by at least subtle suggesting that ex players who now play BW on Afreeca do hurt "E-Sports" and can be mentioned together with savior.
While i wouldn't want to play a friendly match with Savior, for all he did, even if i had the Chance, this is over the top and it's not even the background. It seems more than a coincidence to me, that Oov makes this statement shortly after becoming the SKT headcoach. But we shouldnt let them insult, what Sonic and many players gave to us on afreeca.
I can see where oov is coming from I guess :\ although it'd be nice if someone could get clarification on whether he's saying Bisu shouldn't be streaming, playing with saviour, or streaming him playing against savior...
When he comes into power for SC2, he sees two problems that hinder the game's popularity: 1. The game design and balance and 2. The still popularity of BW that takes away the viewers of SC2.
And now he is just tackling each of those issues with his own blood.
Now are we going to let a such man to destroy our half fought territory, our domain 2.0? Its up to you to decide.
I usually agree with what oov has to say but not this time. Calling Bisu on savior's level just by playing games against him? The fuck. Oov should remind himself that Bisu and all BW streamers are not affiliated with him, SKT or Kespa.
On October 10 2013 09:42 iLoveKT wrote: I usually agree with what oov has to say but not this time. Calling Bisu on savior's level just by playing games against him? The fuck. Oov should remind himself that Bisu and all BW streamers are not affiliated with him, SKT or Kespa.
I agree with Oov on the first part. Bisu shouldn't play with Savior out of respect for everyone who was involved in the BW scene (particularly ex-teammates/staff). Basically all those Savior fucked over. To play with him on stream for balloons is pretty disgusting.
the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant. Did it cause confusion in Korea?
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote: the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant. Did it cause confusion in Korea?
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote: the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant. Did it cause confusion in Korea?
According to google Translator a couple of people reacted pretty upset. "Oov is just upset that Bisu is making so much money on Afreeca" was a comment i translated. But since i dont speak a word korean and just used the translator, take it with a grain of salt.
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote: the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant. Did it cause confusion in Korea?
According to google Translator a couple of people reacted pretty upset. "Oov is just upset that Bisu is making so much money on Afreeca" was a comment i translated. But since i dont speak a word korean and just used the translator, take it with a grain of salt.
I'm impressed you even managed to come up with coherent sentence using the machine translator But yeah, at best iloveoov seem to be displaying spectacular ignorance of KeSPA scene. I concur with opinion that it would be unwise for anyone to associate themselves with Savior further, but he really spoke more extreme than he should.
As for myself, I also momentarily felt disappointment when I saw Bisu had streamed his matches vs Savior, but immediately saw that it was only commentary about his past matches and not an actual game. Don't see any problem with Bisu relieving about how he destroyed the biggest scum on Brood War scene on his past.
I personally think Savior is a disgusting human being for what he did. Maybe it's because I'm a general sports fan, but I find semi-collapsing an entire sport league for personal gain is literally unforgivable. But Bisu should be able to do whatever he wants. However, Bisu should also be aware of the any risk he takes on from playing against Savior. As long as he's fine with that, it's his choice.
IMO, it's a stupid decision and worthless PR risk on the part of Bisu though.
On October 10 2013 10:50 Carefree wrote: Wait wait. To clear things up:
Did Bisu play vs. Savior or not?
No, if you actually read the OP, you know it's a NO.
Right. It only states that they will play in the future, and did not explicitly state that they did not play already. I just wanted to clear things up so that no more people will come in and look down on Bisu for "playing with Savior".
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
My brain is in a state of disbelief...
Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
My brain is in a state of disbelief...
Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.
It's one of those topics that keep getting brought up since match fixing scandal broke out, and in all cases people ruled that the finals had not been deliberately lost.
Even Koreans don't believe the finals was rigged, and they are like the cesspool of outrageous conspiracies.
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
I've often thought about that. But then again, Bisu murdered everyone after that. So it's no fluke. Just a scary thought we must dispell.
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
I've often thought about that. But then again, Bisu murdered everyone after that. So it's no fluke. Just a scary thought we must dispell.
Yeah, reading the Korean it seems that Oov really is condemning the afreeca streaming of all the retired BW pros and not just specifically Bisu planning to play Savior. So unless Oov/the interviewer really fucked up the wording I'm just a bit exasperated that Oov would say such a thing.
On October 10 2013 11:19 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, reading the Korean it seems that Oov really is condemning the afreeca streaming of all the retired BW pros and not just specifically Bisu planning to play Savior. So unless Oov/the interviewer really fucked up the wording I'm just a bit exasperated that Oov would say such a thing.
edit: o im dum
that has to be a fuckup theres no way oov would say that
Wait so he's talking about those old games Bisu streamed where he played vs savior? -_-;;
Seems like an overreaction to me. However if Bisu were in fact chummy with savior and playing against him for balloons and stuff then I suppose I can see a reason for objection.
On October 10 2013 11:27 purakushi wrote: Considering most BW players do not like SC2, they probably don't care about hurting e-sports (i.e. SC2).
inb4 sAviOr is the one who fully revives the BW scene. lol
savior should dig up some of the $ he has buried and sponsor a starleague secretly with a shell company (they wouldnt accept his sponsorship money directly out of pride)
then announce the fact that it was him right b4 the finals
I know hes just truthfully answering a reporter's question but jesus oov... Bisu is not a progammer anymore. Hes not under Kespa's rule. Hes not under SKT rule. Your coaching sc2, the game that phased out pro bw in korea. Sure your doing great things for esports, but Bisu is the one doing good things for BW, the game he loves.
Let him do what he wants, even if it is with you-know-who.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
You can tell that savior really did play a part in BW's undoing, looking at the way people are still angry at him. iloveoov sounds pretty pissed in the interview when he's talking about the subject. But people on TL are still savior fans and saying idiotic things like "he was young and didn't no any better, we should forgive him"? Speaks volumes about the maturity level of some people here.
Yeah, Oov's right. Bisu streaming is totally disrespectful to all the pro BW out there he's competing with.
Ignoring the Savior thing for a minute, the idea that streaming BW is "disrespectful" is exactly the kind of mindset that makes me kinda glad KeSPA switched. BW may be a lot smaller now, but it's in much better hands with Sonic. Their complete refusal to try anything different to bring back fans to BW after the matchfixing scandal and the release of SC2 (except giving an OSL an "Origin" theme, which just made them look whiny and petulant), was pitiful.
After the switch, there was a lot of fan hype for the whole "eSF vs KeSPA" rivalry, but KeSPA kept their teams out of GSTL and eSF teams out of proleague until no one cared anymore, which is one of the most shocking acts of marketing malpractice I've ever fucking seen. (Beating even "let's make all the teams think we're switching to SC2 next season so that they practice SC2 until the last minute and the BW games are lower quality!). Though, this is also the same organization that decided to switch to SC2 due to the high foreign interest and then filmed the English cast in a garage with half a microphone and a caster who openly hated SC2 and everything it stood for, and now nobody on any continent gives a shit about Proleague any more.
Not to even get into things like the ppp incident (which was garden-variety idiocy), or killing the BW GSL (Hindsight's a bitch on that one. If GOM was doing BW stuff and SC2 stuff at the same time, there would've been cross-promotion and maybe BW would've seen a lot of increased foreign interest to piggyback itself off SC2 a little. KeSPA might have even done that themselves! Hosting an SC2 league for eSF players and cross-promoting a BW league on it to get BW subs! But that would require acknowledging the passage of time)
There is a mindset that the way to save "eSports' is just to pretend it's still 2007. Where the fuck do they got off attacking players for streaming the game they went and fucked up? Why does Bisu have to become a fucking matchstick girl? This is BW's best chance for a revival, a real revival to properly paid full-time BW pros, and the folks running the KeSPA teams are hating on it out of spite.
Maybe Oov's been hanging out with Jessica. He reminds me of her, now.
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
My brain is in a state of disbelief...
Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
Because in the western world, ordeals like this occur too often in the public view and its rarely harshly criticized so its sorta meh for everyone within that society. They just all accepted it and blame the downfall or underlying issue on bigger fish.
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol
Have you read Freakonomics? There's a thing on Sumo wrestlers and matchfixing there. The people most likely to matchfix are the people who are kind of good. The tip-top players are winning too much to blow it, and the C-list players aren't good enough to be worth betting on. We saw this with the BW matchfixing, where the players were all known, but the only really "big" name involved (Savior himself) was well past his prime.
Unless of course...
.....
Savior was blackmailed! Mendoza was behind it all along!
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol
Have you read Freakonomics? There's a thing on Sumo wrestlers and matchfixing there. The people most likely to matchfix are the people who are kind of good. The tip-top players are winning too much to blow it, and the C-list players aren't good enough to be worth betting on. We saw this with the BW matchfixing, where the players were all known, but the only really "big" name involved (Savior himself) was well past his prime.
Unless of course...
.....
Savior was blackmailed! Mendoza was behind it all along!
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote: what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him
..was the beginning
My brain is in a state of disbelief...
Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
Add to that, the PvZ match up was fucked up after that final until 5-hatch build w/ more 'balanced' maps came and normalized everything .. I think the only thing Kespa did great was the map pool.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
We are allowed to forgive, staying bitter forever wont help.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
ah that makes more sense to me.
i cant read korean, but i agree i think oov wouldnt be the person to tell afreeca players that they're hurting bw, i think he just means dont go attracting attention and views towards someone who "disgraced" the game.
So one of the most accomplished progamers in Kespa's history retires, and rather than saying anything commemorative of his career or noting the loss it is to Kespa he decides to immediately bash the player, and speculate on his future actions involving everyone's favorite scapegoat. I hope some editor cut something out...otherwise it just seems a incredibly douchey thing to do, regardless of Oov's personal feelings towards Bisu. Bisu's relations with Savior wasn't the question... or am I missing something? (I can't read the original question or answer myself.)
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol
We know that individual league titles + cash bonuses from their teams are worth a few ten-thousand dollars IIRC, but if the betting leverage is like 10-1 or more he could have easily pocketed a few HUNDRED K of cash plus the money for actually throwing. Then again, watching those matches, we can't reliably say that it was an actual throw any less than Bisu just did a stomp with marginally favorable maps.
As for oov and his statements:
cue conspiracy theory hat
Given what we've heard about a rapidly declining salary base for Proleague players and the fact that Bisu was an SKT team member as well, what if his statements are meant to inflame people into realizing that there IS a Brood War community of former players who stream if audiences really don't want to watch SC2? Not everyone can watch OGN, and he definitely can't make that kind of statement there; but he can just off-handedly react in this way in a less controlled outlet to make people realize that "Hey whoa, I remember ex-pro B, S and J playing before on TV, I never realized they're now showing their games somewhere else!" and at the same time, remind everyone to NOT deal with the scumbags.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
We are allowed to forgive, staying bitter forever wont help.
Only if said party shows appropriate contrition AND behavior that shows sincerity in doing so. I'd watch Hwasin if he streamed as long as he does it for fun and doesn't go begging for money out of it, since he's moved on from the whole scandal with his actions and words; but the lack of similar behavior from Mr. Ma is a definite deal-breaker.
as much as i love savior and hate bisu (jk i love bisu but hate him in a player sense xD) oov has no right to say that bisu has been lowered to saviors level. absolutely no right. savior committed a crime. sure. so now just because they are still friends, that automatically makes bisu the same level as a match fixer as well? thats a terrible thing to say from oov. no1s everyone going to be as low as savior, as much as i hate to say bad things about him. but whats happened has happened. you might not let go of it, but dont start blindly hating on people jsut because they still are friends with him.
The title and oov's statement make this sound a lot worse than I feel it actually is. Yeah, what savior did was horrible and all, but that was a while ago and honestly you're going out of your way to condemn someone for merely playing some games with the guy. And I don't even like Bisu... >.>
Whatever the case, Bisu should at least be careful not to be seen publicly talking to or playing against Savior, especially on stream. It's obvious that it's still a touchy issue, especially for someone of his celebrity. For his sake, it's best to keep such interactions in private rather than risk losing fans and viewers who might still be sensitive to the whole issue. Extra balloons just don't seem to be worth a potential shitstorm.
First of all, I'm very curious how old the people are who are calling iloveoov names and insulting him. iloveoov is one of the best players of all time, so is bisu. Saviour did an unforgivable thing to the BW industry, an industry cherished by millions of people in South Korea. He hurt everyone involved and made a lot of people sad, and his transgressions have not been soon forgotten. And whether anyone agrees with it or not, Bisu associating himself with Saviour looks bad for Bisu. As one of the best players of all time it is an honor and privilege for anyone to get a game with Bisu. Those of us were true hardcore BW players know how hard it was to get games with highly respected and skilled opponents.
For Bisu to game with SAviour is to give Saviour something he no longer deserves and leaves a bad taste in everyone else's mouth.
What you guys don't understand is what was officially exposed in the scandal is only a surface of what many believe actually occurred. You're seeing it from an outsider's perspective as the mistake and greed of a singular entity when it was the collective failure of the entire industry and cast a dark shadow on e-sports right after it broke into the mainstream.
This was a lot more than just that 'young naive Savior' that got led astray. It was the greed on the part of many people that led to this scandal and Savior is the figure that embodes this ugliness.
EDIT: it's amusing some of the comments in this thread. Oov and savior were both bonjwas and entrusted to become the leaders/faces of e-sports. Oov goes on to preserve the SKT Terran legacy even after he destroyed his wrist while playing. The other cashes in and ruins other peoples lives. 'Who is this loud-mouthed iloveoov and who is he to judge our glorious Zerg messiah?' iloveoov's comments are probably on the tamer side compared to what the zealous netizens think about this.
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? No one is ignorant of Oov's stature in the scene, but I respect him as a player and as a coach, not as some kind of Grand Inquisitor that thinks its necessary for people to ostracize Savior not just in the professional scene (which is still undergoing and probably won't ever change, justifiably so) but in private and in casual games too. Savior isn't some kind of boogeyman, but maybe it's just too difficult for people to avoid making scapegoats (which is rife in TL.net too - it isn't uncommon to read people posting about how Savior literally ruined BW and led to the dissolution of the professional scene, which is comical beyond belief).
WTH Oov? A move seriously lacking in class and unworthy of a former bonjwa, even if Kespa told him to say it he should have told them where they can shove it.
That said I can empathize with his feelings regarding savior, I don't care if Bisu wants to play with savior occasionally, they are(or were) friends, it's hard to be a decent person AND cut a friend out. But he definitely shouldn't stream it if he does, for the sake of his reputation and for what remains of the BW scene, he probably should ask savior not to stream it either.
WTH Oov? A move seriously lacking in class and unworthy of a former bonjwa, even if Kespa told him to say it he should have told them where they can shove it.
That said I can empathize with his feelings regarding savior, I don't care if Bisu wants to play with savior occasionally, they are(or were) friends, it's hard to be a decent person AND cut a friend out. But he definitely shouldn't stream it if he does, for the sake of his reputation and for what remains of the BW scene, he probably should ask savior not to stream it either.
I read the original korean and im pretty sure that hes just condemning those who play with savior. It can be interpreted both ways but after reading it a few times im convinced that hes only bashing bw streamers who played with savior.
Yeah, after rereading it a few times I think it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Oov condemning just for playing with Savior, which is far more reasonable than condemning the entirety of the streaming ex-pro community. I still think it's nonsense though, even if we were to interpret Oov more favourably, no matter how understandable his sentiments may be.
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
On October 10 2013 14:58 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, after rereading it a few times I think it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Oov condemning just for playing with Savior, which is far more reasonable than condemning the entirety of the streaming ex-pro community. I still think it's nonsense though, even if we were to interpret Oov more favourably, no matter how understandable his sentiments may be.
I don't think it's nonsense to say that certain people shouldn't associate themselves with certain people if they care about the integrity of the scene, what savior did in respect to the match making in the past is long past yes, but his behavior while he's been streaming on Afreeca has been pretty consistently bad, not showing any remorse or apologizing for what he did. If Bisu is going to stream playing with Savior with the sole goal of making money for himself / cashing in on the old rivalry then there is some ground to say that he shouldn't do that, if Savior uses the platform to stop being such an asshole then maybe it could be something good.
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote: I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.
On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote: I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.
However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.
Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.
I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.
Well Bisu has always been quiet, so none of us really know what he thinks about what happened during that scandal. I do hope Bisu rethinks his relationship with Savior if it turns out they are on friendly terms.
My point is oov's way of saying things in this situation isn't right unless he knows exactly what is going on between Savior and all the former pros he has played with in Afreeca. I don't hate oov, I'm a SKT person and I adore him, but Bisu was SKT and a long time member, and someone instrumental to SKT's success. I know oov always has his way of saying things, but this isn't just another Pro that retired, this is Bisu.
Savior has more then gotten what he has deserved and he shouldn't ever be given anymore attention. I'm just hoping oov is more angry with Savior then he is with former pros that happen to run into him in Afreeca.
I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.
On October 10 2013 15:59 figq wrote: I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.
I think he tried to join but the sonicTV viewers still hates savior Sonic didn't allow him to play on his events
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
I think it's alot more like "Savior gtfo of Afreeca" would be the attitutde imo, instead of this other thing.
Thinking it through, I can understand a bit better why OOV wouldnt want bisu to stream while playing matches with savior
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
would u still think that, if oov only meant that playing vs savior is a bad idea(which is completely understandable), remember the translation said they havnt played yet so its kinda more of a heavy suggestion, also its unclear what he meant on the afreeca thing.
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol
but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact...
bisu playing savior on stream would be a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he wouldn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...
and just because gangs being there enabled savior to do what he did it's not like they put a gun to his head lol
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
Are you downs? Match-fixing/betting usually means mafia involvement. I'm sorry if you think corporate misdoings is the real evil of society, #soedgy #saviorisscarface #fkskt.
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote: And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?
Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one
i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy
edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha
i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol
but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact...
bisu playing savior on stream is a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he doesn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...
In the other thread, (bisu is streaming!) someone said that some fans suggested it and bisu said he didnt really want to. If thats the case i think hes already knows its a bad idea, and it might have just leaked around and turned into bisu is playing savior through misguided whispers
On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior. Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.
lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.
On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior. Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.
lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.
thank you putting it a cool head manner, i refrained from replying
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
I'm pointing that out not to convince you to hate him, but to show how absurd it is that he's still milking the scene he helped destroy, while those innocent kids who were wronged are expected to just get over it and go away.
Rather than hating on or supporting Savior, please try to channel your energy into supporting the players that are still struggling as a result of his actions.
On October 10 2013 17:11 ShadeR wrote: Ma Bonjovi aside, this attack on BW streaming reveals that oov or KeSPA by extension can see that SC2 is a dead end for them.
They can always switch back to BW, right? I mean, they aren't blizzard's bitches on this one, right?
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
On October 10 2013 17:24 radadaundandan wrote: Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.
There's a difference between re-integrating someone into society and welcoming them back into their previous place in society. I can believe that Saviors re-rehabilitated, and I can want for everyone to give him a chance and to succeed in his life, without wishing for him to return to e-sports.
If a football coach was fking kids, I'd be ok with him running a hardware shop. I wouldn't want him back in high school, coaching kids, even if I believe he was 'cured.'
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
Really? Do you need a source about Boxer's contributions too? Or maybe one on Kim Carrier?
Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....
These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.
On October 10 2013 09:10 PassiveAce wrote: I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but... It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.
The event (organized match fixing, for the benefit of criminals) traumatized a lot of players and fans. While Savior still should be treated as a human, I think he has lost the rights to be acknowledged as a player.
On October 10 2013 19:04 zeo wrote: Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....
These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.
Say someone was banned from baseball for doping, not only so but he was the organizer for distributing a culture of doping in not only his team but with in many other rising stars in other major teams, say someone was caught for doping but refuses to even acknowledge or apologize for the fact that he was doping, say someone gets banned professionally but still makes money from the exact sport he was banned from, say someone who was banned professionally is trying to play with former clean retirees for personal fame and money, etc etc etc etc.
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote: sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth
iloveoov probably fought longer and harder for BW than you have graced the internet with your posts.
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
Really? Do you need a source about Boxer's contributions too? Or maybe one on Kim Carrier?
Brilliant logic. Boxer and Kim Carrier contributing means oov contributed too. I applaud you kid.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
If legends don't contribute, who do?
You know who else was a legend who had no business destroying the scene regardless of any contribution they had made?
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote: Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.
Not surprised at all.
oov, I am disappoint.
Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.
Oh wait you are serious.
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote: Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more. I wish your words were misinterpreted.
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
Kids these days.
You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
If legends don't contribute, who do?
No one is saying oov didn't contribute. Every progamer and progaming related job contributed. I was interested in knowing how oov stood out from the rest in changing the industry to be one where players earnt a stable salary. Did he form a players' union of some sort?
just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:
- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players" - and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote: just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:
- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players" - and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.
guess oov going apeshit is a big indicator of the original pro scene decline and soon death
Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.
Everyone else go research what's being said instead of reading the two most recent posts and giving your uninformed opinion.
EDIT: Yes people that do TRANSLATIONS read the entire article and try to understand the context. They are also careful about the implications of their translations. They don't stir shit by extrapolating from an open interpretation of a particular segment of the interview.
On October 10 2013 19:30 Pathos wrote: Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.
sup ? "Korean-Americans" with their "shitty translations" are making this site live since forever ? maybe you should rather thank them, all these shitty korean americans, for all the work they done ?
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote: just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:
- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players" - and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.
I thought anyone who associates themselves to sonic's tournaments, by rule are not allowed to associate with people involved in the scandal though?
On October 10 2013 19:30 Pathos wrote: Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.
sup ? "Korean-Americans" with their "shitty translations" are making this site live since forever ? maybe you should rather thank them, all these shitty korean americans, for all the work they done ?
Get the fk out son: "when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits"
The only person on their high moral ground in this thread is you.
One person's interpretation de-railed this entire thread into a pointless SC2 vs BW discussion. As much as I dislike SC2 and like BW, the idiocy of the people attacking iloveoov and SC2 is making this community look bad.
iloveoov is the HEAD coach of SKT, and he is still incredibly skeptical (yet hopeful) of Blizzard's development of SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430737. He is one of the most recognized strategists who continued to study and develop the game after he wasn't able to physically compete anymore. He is the last person you can accuse of abandoning the game.
yeah but in the translation oov states bisu plays with savior. either he knows something we dont or he misunderstood about bisu watching his old games (which i highly doubt, given that we're talking about oov here)
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
i'm korean and i feel that is kinda offensive :/ not all are like that. please don't generalise kthx
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote: just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:
- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players" - and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.
I thought anyone who associates themselves to sonic's tournaments, by rule are not allowed to associate with people involved in the scandal though?
but we dont know for sure if bisu DID indeed play with savior (there were rumors that they did though, right?). and i'm sure there are some players who go around this rule. even sonic admitted there was matchmaking long time ago and still continued anyway. it's kind of those evil that can't be fully eradicated sadly. you can't 100% stop one player from playing with another on the internet.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
So racism is ok as long as you don't care what people call your race?
Indians are all hypocritical douches in business and I can say that because I live with one. Is that how it works?
I thought you said you were leaving?
edit: I wish the OP would put the fixed translation up (he's only attacking those who play Savior on Afreeca) so we stop seeing stupid kneejerk posts.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
So racism is ok as long as you don't care what people call your race?
Indians are all hypocritical douches in business and I can say that because I live with one. Is that how it works?
I thought you said you were leaving?
there are no races ? I'm merely talking about cultural and social aspects of a given country. ANd nationality is certainly not a race. I think most of human cultures are obnoxious and perverted. Koreans are no exception to it and have certain egocentric traits provided by their fucked up family and social scheme that make them do dumb shit and act a way that is laughable.
koreans are so touchy about their shitty national pride it's fun actually you call me racist when Korea is one of the most xenophobic culture of the whole eastern asia.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over
On October 10 2013 19:20 Boonbag wrote: koreans are 1# country at jumping the high horse and acting like parangons of moral
it always worked this way....
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote: thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
You living with a Korean doesn't give you a right to shit all over them. And whether you would care or not if someone attacks the French is irrelevant. Kona's already told you he finds it offensive and your post has been reported, that should give you some indication of whether you're being offensive or not. Stop being a prick.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
You talking about shitty attitudes is pretty ironic.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote: [quote] There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
i am genuinely speechless.
that's the best way to learn
lmao
I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
i am genuinely speechless.
that's the best way to learn
lmao
I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
i am genuinely speechless.
that's the best way to learn
lmao
I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote: [quote] Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
i am genuinely speechless.
that's the best way to learn
lmao
I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...
i didn't vote for her. fyi.
that's not the point.....
when you are generalising the entire population, yes it is.
i'm not even going to continue this anymore. whatever man.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence im actually living with one
edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture
i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.
hahaah what you just mentioned as the "good" traits is basically what i despise now i understand where you ppl stand deep right into the national propaganda that did so much wrong and made so many ppl suffer in korea i know what i'm talking first hand and you obviously don't sir
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Even in disgrace sAviOr has more fame than oov. People are moving on, haterz gonna hate. Maybe TL should recruit oov, they like this ban life shit mentality.
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene. LIke literally, it seems like some people can not separate the player from the person. If this were a b-teamer or even another Terran champion, no one would defend him.
On October 10 2013 08:08 GGzerG wrote: Hmm....this is kinda sad, I don't think Bisu should be treated wrongly for wanting to play vs sAviOr, I mean hell, who wouldn't want to play vs sAviOr ? It's like the final evil boss to beat in BW. :O
i really dont understand why we felt that savior was the evil boss while JD is the Hero .. where they do the same thing .. stand on top of the zerg race
and yep savior might still be broken in terms of zvp
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote: What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
No one cares what you or I think. People care what iloveoov thinks as unimportant as you think he is. In fact, his opinion is probably a lot more popular among netizens than it is here. These opinions contrary to what you think do affect the people involved.
It is far more a white-washing of history to ignore what he did than to exclude him from streaming. You 'guyz' are only interested in his play for historical reasons. Saviors removal from the current competitive scene doesn't take away from it in anyway.
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
Most of the reason for this thread is because the op specifically stated that Oov was saying that he was against ALL BJs streaming on Afreeca, with that misunderstanding cleared up there is really very little drama.
The vast majority of the people here agree with Oov's sentiments about not streaming games with savior. Saying that doing it puts them on the same level as savior, is pretty much as everyone agrees upon, overdoing it to the point of stupidity.
For the most part, everyone's sentiments regarding savior are the same. We don't like him, we wish he was no longer associated with bw, but given how much we could actually reasonably expect, we just like for people not to tarnish their own reputations and bw's reputation by associating with him, what he chooses to do with his life is his business, it's not like we're forced to pay attention.
The haterz are not the only ones who care, it is people like you who still want to see him streamed that care. TL's stance that we shouldn't give him any more attention is consistent with the general consensus of people's attitude towards savior, as such don't feature restream of him, get over it.
For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.
On October 10 2013 21:48 heaveshade wrote: can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.
Evidently there's quite a bit of irrational hatred for anything SC2 related, to where any player / coach / manager / grandma / pet gopher who even touches SC2 is immediately the biggest asshole on the universe and responsible for the downfall of BW, regardless of whether or not they contributed to the development of BW and even though every major BW figure who wasn't retired with the exception of Midas transitioned over to SC2. Also there's a whole bunch of Savior sympathizers. Make of that what you will.
Wow what a weird thread. It's touched on so many subjects - bonjwa, Korean culture, racism, match fixing, gameplay contributions, etc etc.
I just have one thing to say: I don't hate Savior. But the fact that someone like Xellos exists, who sacrificed so much for his team, his coach, and gave it his all but never earned as much as Savior, was never as praised as Savior, and was never treated like a superstar, makes Savior anathema to anything good about Broodwar.
the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.
so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve
On October 10 2013 21:48 heaveshade wrote: can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.
Evidently there's quite a bit of irrational hatred for anything SC2 related, to where any player / coach / manager / grandma / pet gopher
A pet gopher is associated to SC2? would love to see that.
some people aren't so forgiving like others, still that doesn't change the fact that savior still has a shitty persona for not having to apologize for what he did especially to the players he manipulated and ultimately got fired by it in a shameful manner.
Wow, this thread really turned to shit over night lmao and after seeing the update. Gee, really? You want to blame all those retired players for streaming BW on freeca? Looks like I was right and oov truly is taking the KeSPA stance on the situation because they finally moved on to SC2. Get over yourself. At the end of the day people are going to watch what they want to watch and you cannot blame them for doing so. This doesn't really affect the global viewership. Not by a long shot. You weren't going to get those other people on afreeca to begin with, lol and now those players have the luxury of doing what they want because they aren't tied down anymore. They can stream at their own leisure now that the pro scene has subsided. If some people recall, I am someone who was very much opposed to streaming when it came to the pro's. I still am, but the BW scene today falls back into the hobbyist notion. As in you cannot make a living of it anymore, so these donations help in the short-term while these players prepare for mandatory military service and the rest of their lives. I have absolutely no problem with it. We get to watch FPV of a lot of greats whenever we want and it's great. You no longer need the mystique or aura when you look at the current state of the game. This is just for games like BW and SC2.
I can understand why certain individuals for games like LoL would do the things they do on stream. Like watching their subscribers play, playing games with their subscribers, doing giveaways for RP/skins. If there is one feature Justin.TV/Twitch does right it's their roll feature. It makes sense especially when you have around 20k or above people tuning in.
On October 10 2013 21:57 AssiRoyal wrote: IMO iloveoov has a point...
the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.
so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve
my 2 cents
i was under the impression that he did issue some sort of apology but i guess not lol
i feel like theres something more endearing about not apologizing in this case
he's only sorry that he was careless and greedy getting too many ppl involved and to get caught, he does not feel guilty about the act lol
On October 10 2013 21:57 AssiRoyal wrote: IMO iloveoov has a point...
the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.
so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve
my 2 cents
i was under the impression that he did issue some sort of apology but i guess not lol
i feel like theres something more endearing about not apologizing in this case
he's only sorry that he was careless and greedy getting too many ppl involved and to get caught, he does not feel guilty about the act lol
atleast he's not faking it with some b.s. apology
Pretty much. As for the other guy. My post was with regards to the clarification in the OP, where they said that oov wasn't fond of all the retired players streaming BW on afreeca. If it falls into white_horse's interpretation, which I was led to believe at first myself when reading it. Then my first point still stands. In either case, it's a very KeSPAian stance oov is taking and that's all we can truly say.
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote: this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing
Also korean culture. But what could you expect this is a useless drama/gossip topic with no value for real discussion, so the best thing to do is just add a little oil to the flames and watch some gossip girls taking it seriously :D
UUUiii person A said he won't like person B anymore if he plays with person C. Seriously A+ highschool girl gossip :D
It's well known that KTY and MJY are friends. Being upset if they play on Afreeca just means you need more hobbies. It's been 3 years since match-fixing. We don't have a pro scene anymore. It doesn't matter who you watch or don't watch, who streams or who doesn't stream, you cannot undo the past or bring back that pro scene.
But here and now, given the choice between being able to watch two top BW players and not being able to watch them (keeping in mind you don't have to watch if you don't want to), the choice is obvious as to which one is better. How can people playing BW hurt BW? Why is such a boss like iloveoov even wasting his time commenting about teamless amateurs?
On October 10 2013 23:36 Cuce wrote: I cant see a possible justification to play a stream match with one who shall not be named, yet alone a showmatch.
Oov reaction might be severe, but that doesnt mean bisu is not at fault
wow this is like making Bisu, harry potter and Savior, voldy and oov as snape and bisu's mother is BW where voldy kills BW ..
On October 10 2013 17:24 radadaundandan wrote: Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.
Forgiveness doesn't mean you should take no precautions and do nothing to punish though. Some kind of punishment is necessary to prevent similar things from happening in the future. I think everybody should forgive savior but still he should not be allowed to make money off progaming anymore. He should try to do something else.
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote: Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.
The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.
The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.
If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.
It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
thats pretty much the fucking truth when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits
what oov said is so so so korean ....
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.
hahaah what you just mentioned as the "good" traits is basically what i despise now i understand where you ppl stand deep right into the national propaganda that did so much wrong and made so many ppl suffer in korea i know what i'm talking first hand and you obviously don't sir
User was banned for this post. Requested via PM.
you people? you have something against brood war players?
Of course Savior needed to be punished and he was, rightfully so, and he shouldn't ever be allowed into professional gaming again. But professional BW is gone now, and afreeca streaming isn't anything close to professional gaming.
Pretty trashy PR move by oov. You can't shit on bisu publicly for something he didn't even do yet. As I recall he was asked and then refused. If oov cares that much he can message bisu privately, or at least not call him out in a media interview where he's not around to defend himself. It's really throwing him under the bus, and that's bullshit.
Not really sure what he was thinking here. As for condemning all of the ex pros who went to play BW, however that was translated as either an insinuation or a fairly direct opinion, that's greedy and he has no right to complain that lots of people still enjoy BW and it's a viable thing to stream on afreeca.
On October 11 2013 01:13 Chef wrote: Pretty trashy PR move by oov. You can't shit on bisu publicly for something he didn't even do yet. As I recall he was asked and then refused. If oov cares that much he can message bisu privately, or at least not call him out in a media interview where he's not around to defend himself. It's really throwing him under the bus, and that's bullshit.
Not really sure what he was thinking here. As for condemning all of the ex pros who went to play BW, however that was translated as either an insinuation or a fairly direct opinion, that's greedy and he has no right to complain that lots of people still enjoy BW and it's a viable thing to stream on afreeca.
Good read. Giving people a hard time for something they have yet to do is just pathetic. oov lost all my respect with this interview.. just sad..
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.
Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...
On October 10 2013 21:16 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.
Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...
This!
I have always been a CJ fan but I first and foremost love to see good games. sAviOr did what he did and got punished accordingly. But he was a gifted player regardless and produced some of the best games I ever seen. My point is I would love to see sAviOr playing now (in a non professional setup obviously) and I would watch his stream if he had any!
On October 10 2013 19:04 zeo wrote: Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....
These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.
Say someone was banned from baseball for doping, not only so but he was the organizer for distributing a culture of doping in not only his team but with in many other rising stars in other major teams, say someone was caught for doping but refuses to even acknowledge or apologize for the fact that he was doping, say someone gets banned professionally but still makes money from the exact sport he was banned from, say someone who was banned professionally is trying to play with former clean retirees for personal fame and money, etc etc etc etc.
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote: sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth
iloveoov probably fought longer and harder for BW than you have graced the internet with your posts.
And it doesn't justify his recent string of inflammatory comments. The doping baseball player has every damn right to make money how he sees fit if people are willing to give it to him. Literally no one is hurt by him doing it. Bisu isn't going to contract the plague playing with Savior and then spread it to the viewers. If it's such an abomination to see them play, don't watch. Sadly, Oov is probably upset by the fact that people will watch anyways because it's such a benign issue to throw a tantrum over.
Just because Savior committed wrongdoings doesn't mean we should all hate him forever. Especially not people who have a positive relationship with him.
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
On October 10 2013 07:35 larse wrote: iloveoov: I heard that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr in his stream, if it is true, then they are the same kind of person now. After the match fixing scandal, three b-teamers in our team went to me, cried, and asked me if it's still possible to play the game anymore.
Bisu was a progamer too, and had more successful career than those B-teamers. He had more to lose. If Bisu is able to forgive, then others should be ablo too!
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote: You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?
That's right, and it makes him even more responsible for such statements. Keeping BW at Afreeca until better times is better than not to do it. And criticizing this fact looks like some kind of betrayal (of teammate and retired players, forsaking them at tough times). Don't take me offensively and let's hope iloveoov didn't mean "the entire BW streaming"
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13
Ugh, give it a rest already.
You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13
Ugh, give it a rest already.
You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest
I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.
My interpretation (as a former active translator... which makes me a semi-inactive translator now?) is that oov didn't bash the entire personal BW streaming scene. What white_horse said in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676¤tpage=4#67 is correct and best aligned with the context of the entire response to that particular question.
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13
Ugh, give it a rest already.
You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest
I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.
I don't know why you have it out for me lately but feel free to pm me so we can work this out instead of being passive aggressive. I am very happy Bisu is playing BW again. I'm having fun in the forums. If this has offended people then I will stop. I hope you understand I'm being over the top to have fun but I guess that can be hard to see. Ill try harder to be less visible.
Oov, always the unquestioned master of the interview :D
I don't see anything wrong with reminding poople not to play for money with sAviOr, though it's not like the Afreeca scene needs to listen to people still involved with SC2.
On October 10 2013 21:16 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote: Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
It was July.
Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.
However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.
There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.
You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.
I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.
I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.
Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.
Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...
This!
I have always been a CJ fan but I first and foremost love to see good games. sAviOr did what he did and got punished accordingly. But he was a gifted player regardless and produced some of the best games I ever seen. My point is I would love to see sAviOr playing now (in a non professional setup obviously) and I would watch his stream if he had any!
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote: It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes. And Bisu is faithful; Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13
Ugh, give it a rest already.
You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest
I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
is there a thread or sth on this "apology" youre talking about? i really would like to read that
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
so my point stands... iloveoov is right about asking bisu and others not to play this scumbag if i recall correctly, he was convicted of paying the players out their winnings for throwing matches so thats bullshit with his "i only told my friends and had a bad influence but thats it"
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
wasnt savior convicted of more than just telling other players about the offers in this scandal? because thats just what he apologized for
Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports
Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports
I doubt he really means this, I don't think even if I stopped taking my meds I could come up with such impressively delusional logic. I'm guessing since Kespa is somewhat responsible for his salary the interview should be taken with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong Saviors a scumbag but to lump all of Afreeca in with him is stupid. Or maybe OOV is just so old now he doesn't understand how it works.
On October 11 2013 04:44 AssiRoyal wrote:
wasnt savior convicted of more than just telling other players about the offers in this scandal? because thats just what he apologized for
allegedly he was also skimming off (taking some) of the money he was supposed to give to the players. No honor among thieves. It would also imply that he was the middleman in all of this.
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.
People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.
oov is not shitting on Bisu (nor the BW-streaming folks on Afreeca) people -_-;;
He's saying with a big IF. IF Bisu plays with Savior on public stream it'll put Bisu at the same level [of maturity / consciousness] as Savior, etc. oov answered the question based on what he heard/read, the article doesn't indicate an exact source of his information. Then oov also says he got mad [at himself] for even imagining such a thing, then finishes the response with "I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen."
Is there even proof that Bisu has already, is scheduled to, or was planning to play with Savior?
As someone said in previous pages, instead of saying "Bisu was such a great person and player and contributed to e-sports so~~~~ much and etc." he said what he said
What a thread this has been. Started with a mistranslation, and now has just devolved into personal attacks and people arguing about savior.
On October 11 2013 04:58 OpticalShot wrote: oov is not shitting on Bisu (nor the BW-streaming folks on Afreeca) people -_-;;
He's saying with a big IF. IF Bisu plays with Savior on public stream it'll put Bisu at the same level [of maturity / consciousness] as Savior, etc. oov answered the question based on what he heard/read, the article doesn't indicate an exact source of his information. Then oov also says he got mad [at himself] for even imagining such a thing, then finishes the response with "I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen."
Is there even proof that Bisu has already, is scheduled to, or was planning to play with Savior?
Pretty much this. Basically said fuck savior, and that he doesn't think Bisu should play with him ever. And I pretty much agree with both of those things. I honestly think anyone who wasn't a progamer when the whole match fixing thing happened has any right to say whether or not savior is cool or not or whatever. It's a touchy subject. If BW was your entire life at one time, and someone completely jeopardized and shit on it, you'd probably feel differently. And considering he wasn't being as harsh as the OP led on, I'm not even sure why this discussion is still going on.
Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.
There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote: Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.
There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.
Well savior defenders here are still going to support savior.
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.
People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.
No, thats not it. Someone told oov that there is a rumor going around that Bisu will play a showmatch against savior. Somehow out of that unfounded rumor, oov feels the need to call out an entire community apparently just because savior happens to be playing the same game as them... justified opinion? More like causing a shitstorm for no reason.
While harsh, it's perfectly understandable why oov would feel this way. Savior is scum after all.. regardless of how he used to play or how much time has passed. Also, considering oov was a former playing coach for bisu, he probably understands bisu's thoughts on the issues better than any of us.
This mistranslation causing people to hate oov...its already been said that the suggestion came from fans and bisu rejected it, oov probably hearing it down from people to people is just enforcing the idea of why bisu shouldnt play with savior. along with other streamers, and i definitely do not think oov would ever say that afreeca streaming of bw shouldnt be done (and its already in the updated OP)
Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:
"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."
If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?
It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.
But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.
Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote: either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.
dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.
he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.
People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.
No, thats not it. Someone told oov that there is a rumor going around that Bisu will play a showmatch against savior. Somehow out of that unfounded rumor, oov feels the need to call out an entire community apparently just because savior happens to be playing the same game as them... justified opinion? More like causing a shitstorm for no reason.
I believe it's a mistranslation from the OP. In his defense, the original text is worded slightly vaguely and can be misinterpreted. I have read the original text carefully and I do NOT believe that oov is burning the entire BW community on afreeca. People here are just skimming through the posts and calling for oov's head. I think it's about time we straighten this out.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.
You can tell that savior really did play a part in BW's undoing, looking at the way people are still angry at him. iloveoov sounds pretty pissed in the interview when he's talking about the subject. But people on TL are still savior fans and saying idiotic things like "he was young and didn't no any better, we should forgive him"? Speaks volumes about the maturity level of some people here.
Going back and reading again, I think this interpretation is more correct. Seeing as how this topic has kind of exploded, I think it's worth trying to go though this more carefully. I'll try to outline my thought process here here line-by-line and point out where the potential ambiguities are for me (other translators please chime in if you think something is incorrect):
(Bolding added by me for emphasis) (Stuff in parentheses is my notes and not part of the interview text)
최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요? Interviewer: What thoughts do you have on Kim Taek-Yong's recent retirement?
일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요. To start, it is regretful. He didn't leave on a high note so it is even more regretful.
최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠. Recently I heard he is playing with Ma Jae-Yoon on Afreeca; if it is true that they are playing together, then he is the same as Ma Jae-Yoon. (Doesn't seem to be mad at Kim Taek-Yong unless this indeed happened)
그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요. When the match-fixing scandal happened, three of the practice partners on the team came to me crying, asking if they would be able to continue playing at all.
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. Going through that, I hear that he/they (unclear if he is referring to only Kim Taek-Yong given the next sentence) are being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Then they are all the same as him (clearly refers to multiple people here, but again unclear who exactly).
후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. It is the same case with the players from other teams. (was this who he was referring to on the previous lines? From the text itself I wouldn't say so, but I don't know who else it could be)
은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요. I am angry at the idea that Kim Taek-Yong would even consider the possibility of playing a game with Ma Jae-Yoon. (Again, doesn't seem like he condemns Kim Taek-Yong unless he actually did have such relations with Ma Jae-Yoon).
진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요. I hope that sort of thing didn't happen/doesn't happen. (This is clearly referring only to the possible game with Savior, and not Afreeca streaming)
So, all in all, I don't think that iloveoov was denouncing Afreeca or Brood War streaming as a whole, but just any notion that any of the retired players would have friendly relations with Savior. Whether or not the hate for Savior is justified is a separate issue which people always seem eager to discuss.
Sorry for any confusion that this might have caused or will continue causing...
On October 11 2013 06:41 Crisium wrote: Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:
"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."
If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?
It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.
But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.
Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.
Okay really now, now it's about tone/phrasing?
Honestly here let me use the same Korean source quoted in the OP and translate quickly. Going to use a ton of explanatory text to fill the gaps, and format it a bit for easier reading:
Q. 그렇죠.(웃음) 그럼 이제 다른 이야기로 넘어가 보면, 최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요?
최연성 : 일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요. 최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠. 그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요. 그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. 택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요. 진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요.
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?
oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well. I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior. [Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?
oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well.
I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior.
[Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.
*edit: going to also add that people should not jump to conclusions based on a loose two-step translation (assuming OP translated from the CN article, which was probably translated from the original KR article).
Hell, even for direct KR -> EN, I've read some translators take 테란원탑 as "Terran One-Tower" I mean seriously? Where did the fucking tower come from? Is that what Google Translate gives you? 원탑, or one-top, refers to the single (one) player who is at the top (lmao ok he can sit on the top of the tower if he wants) of the subject (here the subject being the performance as a player using the Terran race).
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
He chose to undermine the SCBW pro gaming scene for a FEW bucks. Not really just a few, but less than he would have made if he continued to be a pro gamer. He was also a style of zerg that was amazing to watch even more so than JD in some cases. That is why to any BW fan he will always be hated he was a hope for even more amazing gameplay and ruined the integrity of the game.
oov as someone who is involved in the scene, knows people impacted by the scandal, is understandable that anyone who was a progamer to associate with savior is a bad thing (we observers have a different perspective, especially foreigners. try to see it from a perspective of someone that was impacted very negatively because of savior, or know/close to someone that was impacted by savior).
as for streaming, i understand where oov is coming from. bw pros were like a figure, replays were collected like mint mtg cards and now their mystical figure is shown to the world with streaming, so it loses this mystical property. however the fans want to see it and the ex-progamers need to make money so its a win win for both. in this i think oov can be convinced or not yet convinced before this interview
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote: Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.
There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.
rofl I love this. Its like I finally understand what people find interesting about celebrities...
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
because he killed the game?
only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:
only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
The BW community in korea disagrees with you completely. oov basically blasts savior in the interview. People hate him, and rightfully so.
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote: Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.
There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
because he killed the game?
only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
not quite ..
He killed off other people's career by being the middleman. Caused a scandal on a country that has a highly conservative society, thus giving/adding a poor impression for future potential sponsors.
On October 11 2013 06:41 Crisium wrote: Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:
"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."
If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?
It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.
But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.
Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.
Okay really now, now it's about tone/phrasing?
Honestly here let me use the same Korean source quoted in the OP and translate quickly. Going to use a ton of explanatory text to fill the gaps, and format it a bit for easier reading:
Q. 그렇죠.(웃음) 그럼 이제 다른 이야기로 넘어가 보면, 최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요?
최연성 : 일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요. 최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠. 그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요. 그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. 택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요. 진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요.
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?
oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well. I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior. [Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?
oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well.
I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior.
[Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.
*edit: going to also add that people should not jump to conclusions based on a loose two-step translation (assuming OP translated from the CN article, which was probably translated from the original KR article).
Hell, even for direct KR -> EN, I've read some translators take 테란원탑 as "Terran One-Tower" I mean seriously? Where did the fucking tower come from? Is that what Google Translate gives you? 원탑, or one-top, refers to the single (one) player who is at the top (lmao ok he can sit on the top of the tower if he wants) of the subject (here the subject being the performance as a player using the Terran race).
The last line about him being mad at himself changes things a little but it doesn't make up for this. I can forgive oov for having said these things, of course, but they were still wrong to say. You don't go to your partner / spouse and say "if you're cheating on me, it would be a terrible thing and you would be scum." The 'if' part doesn't make it any less of an accusation lol. I use this example because it's funny that in the same way people hate themselves for not trusting their spouses, oov hates himself for not trusting bisu.
But honestly, you can't point to the "if" and go "SEEEE!!! HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY ACCUSE HIM!" He totally did and it was inappropriate and unnecessary for the interview. As someone else said, he could have talked about the respect he had for Bisu as a player and his glory days. If he wants to caution people against reintegrating savior (and that's a totally different conversation I don't want to get into), he can do it without dragging someone's name thru the dirt.
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
because he killed the game?
only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
Personally I don't care, because I express my opinion by actually subscribing to it. I'm just telling you what people would use as a justification.
Also at italics, so what do you cal Justin, Hwasin and all the other guys? Some people don't really think their arguments through...
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.
I don't think brood war is what's holding SC2 back
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.
On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote: Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
because he killed the game?
only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
Personally I don't care, because I express my opinion by actually subscribing to it. I'm just telling you what people would use as a justification.
Also at italics, so what do you cal Justin, Hwasin and all the other guys? Some people don't really think their arguments through...
Killed their own careers as foolishly as Savior did.
On October 11 2013 11:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.
I'm thinking about this too. exactly! he in fact destroyed everyone, including bw e-sports or perhaps e-sports in korea too. it was such a let down.
and to those people who can't understand why there is so much hate on savior even after 4yrs - of course, savior was a bonjwa, there was so much expectations from him. he should be a role model like the other bonjwas (boxer, oov, nada and flash) but instead of being a role model he tainted the scene. i'm pretty sure oov is also mad at the other players who fixed the matches, but just have more impact on savior. and obviously, this scandal caused sponsors to mistrust e-sports.
i'm indifferent whether bisu plays with savior, may be just for old time's sake, why not? but to oov's point, what he doesn't like is probably for the pro-gamers (both retired and active) to encourage savior to play more bw. savior should have completely disappeared from the scene after the scandal and move-on from e-sports.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.
I love the fact that straight off the bat you start your post by assuming that SC2 was actually alive at some point in time. Secondly why should somebody stop doing something that they love, and get paid for doing it just so that something that they don't quite like might have some potential growth or rather slowing down its impending death?
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..
but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me
he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
Shaft...I respect your opinion but it's the wrong opinion.
Bisu is as legendary as any Protoss player can get. I don't think you realized how paralyzed protoss players were during Savior's era of dominance. You do remember that Bisu received like 3% voter-poll chance of winning his MSL match against Saviour? What does that tell you? More than that, he was the dominant Protoss during the Legend of the Fall in 2008, the era of Protoss dominance marked by Best making the finals against JulyZerg, Stork finally winning and OSL and Bisu beating Best and Jangbi in PvP's to win his MSL. Sure he hasn't been successful in individual leagues since his last title, but he's dominated proleague. What other Protoss player can say that? Jangbi went through a 10+ game losing streak ffs. He's also 8-2 against Jaedong in their last 10 matchups, meaning he OWNS jaedong. No other Protoss player can say that. Plus, he's beaten Flash in CRUCIAL FINALS playoff games at least twice, to WIN TEAM CHAMPIONSHIPS. Say what you want, but this guy delivers and he's not only a Protoss legend, or broodwar legend, he's a legend of esports.
Happy to be part of that 3 percent. Bisu was pretty dominant for a short while as well. It's not like his other match-ups were abysmal. Stork don't forget range, hue! BD
I think oov is being too harsh on Bisu. And well I guess this is indeed a problem of being associated with Savior in any way, shape or form.
Its undoubted that Savior has done a great deal of irreversible harm to BW, but he should still be respected and admired as a player and the master tactician he was, and it shouldn't be a crime to be in any way associated with him. After all being friends with Savior doesn't imply being into match fixing or having match fixed yourself.
Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.
oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.
sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote: Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.
oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.
sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
Looking at Esports as an industry should foster the exact opposite view of what oov is saying. Look at LoL or Dota 2. Streaming is a huge part of what made LoL into the monster it is and pros streaming in Dota brings in lots of viewers, as well. To dismiss streaming as being part of Esports is disingenuous.
Savior and what he did is despicable and should be vilified in esports history, but honestly, oov is letting his (justified) hatred of Savior cloud his judgement.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..
but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me
he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.
Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.
That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.
On October 11 2013 16:13 sharkie wrote: Is oov seriously criticizing older players for streaming?
No. Check a few pages back for a detailed analysis of the translation. The wording is just very vague.
Yeah I did and thats why I am asking:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..
but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me
he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.
Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.
That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.
Dude, it's my opinion and you're saying that my opinion is wrong. My opinions are not up for debate. The names I listed before had a strong and consistent following. And no I am not attacking Bisu personally. I'm just saying many people would see him as a legendary player but, to me, he just wasn't. It's just like how other people would see as Effort or Jangbi being legendary, if they ever did. I would compare Jangbi, Effort, Fantasy, Stork along with Bisu. Great players, not Legendary but again .. that's just me.
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
Its somewhat confusing. People assume his 'that' refers to playing with Savior on Afreeca from the previous sentence. Otherwise it makes no sense.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..
but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me
he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.
Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.
That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote: Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...
If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
When did Bisu became a legend? lol
3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?
More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..
but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me
he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.
Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.
That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.
Dude, it's my opinion and you're saying that my opinion is wrong. My opinions are not up for debate. The names I listed before had a strong and consistent following. And no I am not attacking Bisu personally. I'm just saying many people would see him as a legendary player but, to me, he just wasn't. It's just like how other people would see as Effort or Jangbi being legendary, if they ever did. I would compare Jangbi, Effort, Fantasy, Stork along with Bisu. Great players, not Legendary but again .. that's just me.
Actually it was originally you laughing at somebody else's notion that Bisu is a legend. Why was it okay for you to laugh at their opinion but not okay for somebody to point out how your opinion is nonsensical?
As for Bisu's PL runs, like the one where he Broke Flash's Record For Most Wins and did it at a higher win%, yeah, I guess he was just lucky to play subpar players or something. Like that time he defeated the greatest and best player of all time in SWL and PL finals.
Also, your opinion is that OSL is The Only Thing and that July and Grrrr are legends over Bisu. So basically your opinion is really silly and people should laugh at it. Calling it your opinion doesn't change that.
Eh... let's leave the legacy of Bisu to other threads that have exhaustively discussed all sides. While I honestly don't understand why people can even think of someone else as the GOAT of Protoss, it's even more perplexing to me how someone can see him as somehow not being legendary and terribly over-hyped. His Protoss legacy is up for debate, in the same way that Flash's Terran legacy is up for debate (vs Nada and iloveoov), as well as Jaedong's legacy (Savior, July).
Back to the particular topic, iloveoov has long been outspoken. Now, if I recall correctly, he gave an interview right after the scandal about Savior. In that interview, while he did not forgive Savior's acts, he showed a bit of understanding about the possible reasons Savior would have done what he did. About being stagnant (and bored) at the top, being frustrated at being unable to stay on top, etc etc. Right now, I'm guessing he's updated his stance. He's seen firsthand how damaging the match fixing scandal was to BW, yes, but also to esports and the Starcraft brand. I'm guessing he's just expressing the fact that his disappointment with Savior has increased because of Starcraft's sorry state.
In the same vein, he's also expressing a senior player/coach/mentor's apprehension about a former student being involved with the man vilified by the entire community. He doesn't want Bisu to taint his legacy (which in oov's eyes is probably a bit a bit diminished because Bisu didn't keep trying to get back on top in SC2). So much so that even the possibility that Bisu considered playing against Savior was already such a let down to him.
I think I can forgive oov's overreaching statements. I just hope that once he finds out that Bisu didn't play Savior (but merely watching his former pro-games against Savior), then he'd reach out and apologize for being hasty in the interview.
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote: Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.
oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.
sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
Looking at Esports as an industry should foster the exact opposite view of what oov is saying. Look at LoL or Dota 2. Streaming is a huge part of what made LoL into the monster it is and pros streaming in Dota brings in lots of viewers, as well. To dismiss streaming as being part of Esports is disingenuous.
Savior and what he did is despicable and should be vilified in esports history, but honestly, oov is letting his (justified) hatred of Savior cloud his judgement.
Maybe from the industry point of view it's right but in my opinion streaming differs somehow for MOBAs and SC. I may be a bit vague here, apologies, but what i mean is that streaming and thus engaging with your audience 1) makes you a bit less concentrated 2)exposes your tactics for opponents to watch if you serioulsy uesd it for training. The thing is little mechanical errors that that creates have different implications to your performance as a whole. Missing 1 creep rarely, if even makes or breaks your game, but missing a supply? The game may be lost bacause of that. And to the second point we do not see training scrims of MOBAs being streamed, do we? So while it may help the industry, it may also crash it, since it should be performance, quality of play that defines it not really viewer numbers or paychecks. Healthy balance is needed between streaming and Hyperbolic Time Chamber training-yourself-until-your-eyes-start-to-bleed ;P. How to achive it? I do not have a solution, don't know if there is one, or if I'm even right in the grand scale of things. Just my two cents.
To be on topic, hmm oov does seem a bit harsh, just wandering if there may be some other underlying issues between the two gentlemen?
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote: See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
This just comes off as insulting towards Bisu- a player who has worked hard for many years at being a great BW player, and has no motivation to play a different game. He now streams, which his fans and many other people greatly enjoy, and is doing something which he enjoys. To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
I have nothing but respect for what oov did in the past, but to make out like he's taking the hard, noble way now by going back into SC2 (which wasn't exactly built on sweat and hard work of the fans and players from the ground up), is equally absurd.
I'm really confused. Obviously Bisu would never stream while playing Savior, and him being friendly with him outside of streaming would be purely speculation (and irrelevant), so what's the problem? Maybe oov is bitter towards Afreeca just for allowing Savior to stream, but Afreeca is not purely a BW streaming program, so you can't expect them to ban him from streaming.
I admire Bisu for having the guts to retire and to fully speak his mind about it. I didn't expect such honesty from Bisu. He have nothing to be ashamed of.
On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote: To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2.
Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote: I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that. (Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)
This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.
heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.
I don't think brood war is what's holding SC2 back
It is not the only thing.
On October 11 2013 11:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.
On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote: To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2.
Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.
Bisu's risk had the trigger called salary cut though. But yeah, reasons behind Stork not jumping the bandwagon back to BW confuses me, unless Samsung pays him like the same amount (despite his perfomance) it does not make sense.
there is no bisu without savior. a debatable statement, but i stand behind it.
i'm not a bisu fan, but i acknowledge that he is an absolute legend, and the way he created his legend was by smashing the unbeatable savior 3-0 using an incredible strategy. the maestro, who was thought to be the complete player in every department, was instead thoroughly outplayed, without looking as though he ever had a chance. his long reign was over. it was a sensational night.
This thread is such a clusterfuck. Starting from the ambiguous translations, to you people arguing about multiple, completely unrelated things at the same time. Anyways, consider this thread has run its course.
EPT
Blitz
