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iloveoov talks Bisu's possible relation with sAviO

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larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 00:09:01
October 09 2013 22:35 GMT
#1
It's from one question in iloveoov's new interview. The interview is too long so I only pick this question to translate. iloveoov basically says that he likes SKT Parting's way of doing things. Players should be more dramatic in the interview to attract popularity and make storylines. Well, as an example, iloveoov starts to condemn Bisu's potential relationship with sAviOr in the same interview.



Q: Let's talk about Bisu's retirement.

iloveoov: It's regretful. Since he didn't retire in a good time, it's even more regretful. Recently, I heard that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr in his stream, if it is true, then they are the same kind of person now. After the match fixing scandal, three b-teamers in our team went to me, cried, and asked me if it's still possible to play the game anymore. It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now. I know that many retired players do streaming on Afreeca, but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this. I am still angry about that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr. I really hope this won't happen.

Update:
Some other translators (who know Korean) confirmed that in the original Korean source, iloveoov indeed bashes the entire BW streaming, not just Bisu's relationship with savior: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676#11 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=3#57

Update 2:
A different interpretation that says iloveoov didn't mean the entire bw streaming: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=4#67

Update 3:
A more accurate translation:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=14#272


Source: http://s.163.com/13/1008/23/9AN0O5BB00314Q8T.html

Korean source: http://sports.news.naver.com/sports/index.nhn?category=e_sports&ctg=news&mod=read&office_id=442&article_id=0000000388&date=20131008&page=1



I apologize in advance for any translation issue and misunderstanding.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
October 09 2013 22:38 GMT
#2
Guilty by association?

but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 09 2013 22:42 GMT
#3
I'd lean towards the latter because we all know how KeSPA views the situation. The Gorilla is in no position to welcome such an idea.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 09 2013 22:42 GMT
#4
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote:
Guilty by association?

Show nested quote +
but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?


That's the part I am not sure. I think it's the former. Hope someone with good Korean to clarify this.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 09 2013 22:44 GMT
#5
Bisu can do w/e wants.

You can't stop the man.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
October 09 2013 22:47 GMT
#6
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote:
Guilty by association?

Show nested quote +
but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?

sounds like he condemns bisu for not treating savior like a pariah...
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 09 2013 22:48 GMT
#7
On October 10 2013 07:44 Xiphos wrote:
Bisu can do w/e wants.

You can't stop the man.


Exactly. The wonders of having no affiliation to anyone or anything.
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
October 09 2013 22:58 GMT
#8
i thought it was pretty well known that the two were good friends back then despite their rivalry? i guess this implies they still are and some people dont like the association, though either way if i get to see good games i dont really care

relevant
the courage to be a lazy bum
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10673 Posts
October 09 2013 23:08 GMT
#9
Hmm....this is kinda sad, I don't think Bisu should be treated wrongly for wanting to play vs sAviOr, I mean hell, who wouldn't want to play vs sAviOr ? It's like the final evil boss to beat in BW. :O
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Jindo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1305 Posts
October 09 2013 23:20 GMT
#10
Considering the amount of well known "hyung" in the scene who have condemned savior in the past (former CJ head coach, KT head coach, Kim carrier, OGN castors, etc...) I think associating with savior would be PR suicide.
juki
Profile Joined April 2012
68 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 22:04:39
October 09 2013 23:22 GMT
#11
On October 10 2013 07:42 larse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote:
Guilty by association?

but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?


That's the part I am not sure. I think it's the former. Hope someone with good Korean to clarify this.


EDIT: After re-reading carefully, I think this interpretation is not entirely accurate, see here.

From what I can interpret from the original Korean source, he seems to focus on Savior specifically.

He says he would be angry if Bisu played with Savior. This is where the "then they are the same person" quote applies. I get the impression that he is most upset about Bisu possibly being friendly with Savior, rather than the actual playing of the game.

The other quote regarding "caring about e-sports":
은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
It seems a little weird in context. The way he leads into it, I think he has the impression that all of the retired pros playing on Afreeca are being chummy with Savior, and so that makes all of it bad for e-sports, etcetera.

So basically, iloveoov really doesn't like Savior, and doesn't like people being friendly with him.

Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports

Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports
PM me if you want a BW-related item translated (stuff on former players is okay as well)
.gypsy
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada689 Posts
October 09 2013 23:27 GMT
#12
What an idiot Oov is lol.
https://www.twitch.tv/gypsy93
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 09 2013 23:33 GMT
#13
On October 10 2013 08:22 juki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 07:42 larse wrote:
On October 10 2013 07:38 Falling wrote:
Guilty by association?

but if they really care about esports and care about the younger generations, they shouldn't do this
Is he just concerned about Bisu playing with sAviOr or streaming BW in general?


That's the part I am not sure. I think it's the former. Hope someone with good Korean to clarify this.

From what I can interpret from the original Korean source, he seems to focus on Savior specifically.

He says he would be angry if Bisu played with Savior. This is where the "then they are the same person" quote applies. I get the impression that he is most upset about Bisu possibly being friendly with Savior, rather than the actual playing of the game.

The other quote regarding "caring about e-sports":
은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
It seems a little weird in context. The way he leads into it, I think he has the impression that all of the retired pros playing on Afreeca are being chummy with Savior, and so that makes all of it bad for e-sports, etcetera.

So basically, iloveoov really doesn't like Savior, and doesn't like people being friendly with him.

Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports

Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports


If this is true, I think Oov is simply undermining BW players. Whether or not it is his scheme to uplift SC2 status in Korea because of his recent re-affiliation with SKT and that maybe the upper management coerce him to state those words, this is just plainly wrong on so many levels to speak such vile terms regarding the retired Afreeca BJs like that.

But then again I understand his feelings, sAviOr pretty much ripped Bonjwa-hood right from his hands. Maybe he still have a few antipathy toward MJY.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Trozz
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3454 Posts
October 09 2013 23:47 GMT
#14
Those are some harsh words.
With Boxer out of the scene,
things must be stressful.
A build is not a guess, an estimation or a hunch, a feeling, or a foolish intuition. A build is a dependable, unwavering, unarguably accurate, portrayer of your ambition.
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
October 09 2013 23:57 GMT
#15
On October 10 2013 08:47 Trozz wrote:
Those are some harsh words.
With Boxer out of the scene,
things must be stressful.

Hate for Savior
Still seems strong in Korea
Bisu must take care
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44311 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 00:06:00
October 10 2013 00:05 GMT
#16
oh ffs... hating savior for the things that savior was involved in is one thing... hating on another famous player for merely having a positive relationship with savior is a complete other thing.

iloveoov, if you love victory so much, why not love your ex-teammate?

EDIT: I guarantee you he wouldn't have said these things about Bisu if Bisu hadn't retired yet.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
sh4w
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States713 Posts
October 10 2013 00:06 GMT
#17
What stupid stupid comments.
Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.
I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44311 Posts
October 10 2013 00:06 GMT
#18
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote:
What stupid stupid comments.
Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.


It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
sh4w
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States713 Posts
October 10 2013 00:10 GMT
#19
On October 10 2013 09:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote:
What stupid stupid comments.
Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.


It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.


But I mean like Falling said...according to the translation he is saying that retired players shouldn't be streaming on Afreeca. Though the way it's worded doesn't really make sense. Hopefully someone can double check the translation.
I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
October 10 2013 00:10 GMT
#20
I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but...
It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44311 Posts
October 10 2013 00:13 GMT
#21
On October 10 2013 09:10 sh4w wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 09:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On October 10 2013 09:06 sh4w wrote:
What stupid stupid comments.
Retired players shouldn't stream on afreeca? Why? Because people would rather watch them play Broodwar than SC2? Is he mad because they make more money streaming on Afreeca, playing BW than they ever did in SC2? This makes no sense to me.


It's not because Bisu is streaming... it's because Bisu is streaming and playing with savior.


But I mean like Falling said...according to the translation he is saying that retired players shouldn't be streaming on Afreeca. Though the way it's worded doesn't really make sense. Hopefully someone can double check the translation.


Yeah I dunno :/

On October 10 2013 09:10 PassiveAce wrote:
I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but...
It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.


Agreed, although the savior scandal can be found here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Match_Fixing_Scandal
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 00:19:49
October 10 2013 00:15 GMT
#22
Eh, I understand the "hate" for sAviOr, but there's nothing wrong with Bisu playing with him. =\
Making too big of a deal out of it, IMHO. Sure, it will turn off some viewers and whatnot, but it really is an overreaction.

Anyway, SC2's lack of success has little to do with player dramatic storylines and personality. People need to stop blaming everything that is not the game itself. SC2 is lucky to have been graced by so many legends, even if they performed poorly.

I just want to watch some amazing games.
T P Z sagi
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 10 2013 00:16 GMT
#23
I understand where he's coming from and probably agree.
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
October 10 2013 00:17 GMT
#24
im dissapointed ini loveoov here. He made this statement cleary, whether by his own decision or Kespa influence, by at least subtle suggesting that ex players who now play BW on Afreeca do hurt "E-Sports" and can be mentioned together with savior.

While i wouldn't want to play a friendly match with Savior, for all he did, even if i had the Chance, this is over the top and it's not even the background. It seems more than a coincidence to me, that Oov makes this statement shortly after becoming the SKT headcoach.
But we shouldnt let them insult, what Sonic and many players gave to us on afreeca.
Broodwar for life!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 10 2013 00:20 GMT
#25
Bisu just wants to continue to destroying sAviOr, and I don't see a problem with that.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
October 10 2013 00:28 GMT
#26
On October 10 2013 09:20 ninazerg wrote:
Bisu just wants to continue to destroying sAviOr, and I don't see a problem with that.


Bonjwa downfall
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
October 10 2013 00:28 GMT
#27
I can see where oov is coming from I guess :\ although it'd be nice if someone could get clarification on whether he's saying Bisu shouldn't be streaming, playing with saviour, or streaming him playing against savior...
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 10 2013 00:38 GMT
#28
I think Oov is a ingenious man.

When he comes into power for SC2, he sees two problems that hinder the game's popularity:
1. The game design and balance
and
2. The still popularity of BW that takes away the viewers of SC2.

And now he is just tackling each of those issues with his own blood.

Now are we going to let a such man to destroy our half fought territory, our domain 2.0? Its up to you to decide.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
shin_toss
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines2589 Posts
October 10 2013 00:41 GMT
#29
same level as in playing skill level? Or... No, that can't be the case. Bisu just probably on the team because he is good.
AKMU / IU
iLoveKT
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Philippines3615 Posts
October 10 2013 00:42 GMT
#30
I usually agree with what oov has to say but not this time. Calling Bisu on savior's level just by playing games against him? The fuck. Oov should remind himself that Bisu and all BW streamers are not affiliated with him, SKT or Kespa.
Woo Jung Ho
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 10 2013 00:42 GMT
#31
He can do no such thing lmao.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 10 2013 00:46 GMT
#32
Well, if people followed SKT1 that didn't know about Afreeca streams and Bisu streaming, they do now so whatever.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
LV_426
Profile Joined December 2009
Poland432 Posts
October 10 2013 00:46 GMT
#33
i dont care if Savior was fixing his matches or not, he will be always my favorite zerg player...
and this sentence makes no logical sense to me
I heard that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr in his stream, if it is true, then they are the same kind of person now


Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
October 10 2013 00:49 GMT
#34
On October 10 2013 09:42 iLoveKT wrote:
I usually agree with what oov has to say but not this time. Calling Bisu on savior's level just by playing games against him? The fuck. Oov should remind himself that Bisu and all BW streamers are not affiliated with him, SKT or Kespa.

I agree with Oov on the first part. Bisu shouldn't play with Savior out of respect for everyone who was involved in the BW scene (particularly ex-teammates/staff). Basically all those Savior fucked over. To play with him on stream for balloons is pretty disgusting.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
heaveshade
Profile Joined March 2011
China330 Posts
October 10 2013 01:16 GMT
#35
the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant.
Did it cause confusion in Korea?
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
October 10 2013 01:20 GMT
#36
Lost respect for Oov.
KTY
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 10 2013 01:22 GMT
#37
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote:
the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant.
Did it cause confusion in Korea?


Juki already translated from the Korean source. Wooyeon's translation stands true. Oov indeed means the entire BW streaming. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676#11
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 01:23:43
October 10 2013 01:23 GMT
#38
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote:
the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant.
Did it cause confusion in Korea?


According to google Translator a couple of people reacted pretty upset. "Oov is just upset that Bisu is making so much money on Afreeca" was a comment i translated. But since i dont speak a word korean and just used the translator, take it with a grain of salt.
Broodwar for life!
iamho
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3347 Posts
October 10 2013 01:32 GMT
#39
Lost respect for Bisu.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
October 10 2013 01:36 GMT
#40
personally i feel like the afreeca streamers should just avoid bet matches with savior. it's really not worth the small change.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 01:38:06
October 10 2013 01:37 GMT
#41
On October 10 2013 10:23 Cele wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 10:16 heaveshade wrote:
the translater herself was kind of confused at that Bisu question. And now we have some more folks trying to figure out what oov really meant.
Did it cause confusion in Korea?


According to google Translator a couple of people reacted pretty upset. "Oov is just upset that Bisu is making so much money on Afreeca" was a comment i translated. But since i dont speak a word korean and just used the translator, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm impressed you even managed to come up with coherent sentence using the machine translator
But yeah, at best iloveoov seem to be displaying spectacular ignorance of KeSPA scene. I concur with opinion that it would be unwise for anyone to associate themselves with Savior further, but he really spoke more extreme than he should.

As for myself, I also momentarily felt disappointment when I saw Bisu had streamed his matches vs Savior, but immediately saw that it was only commentary about his past matches and not an actual game. Don't see any problem with Bisu relieving about how he destroyed the biggest scum on Brood War scene on his past.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
cabarkapa
Profile Joined November 2009
United States1011 Posts
October 10 2013 01:38 GMT
#42
On October 10 2013 10:32 iamho wrote:
Lost respect for Bisu.

He didn't actually play Savior.
Jaehoon - Master strategist
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
October 10 2013 01:38 GMT
#43
I think it mainly because there is not alot of top tier player to play on Afreeca so he get kind of bored.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 01:43:39
October 10 2013 01:43 GMT
#44
I personally think Savior is a disgusting human being for what he did. Maybe it's because I'm a general sports fan, but I find semi-collapsing an entire sport league for personal gain is literally unforgivable. But Bisu should be able to do whatever he wants. However, Bisu should also be aware of the any risk he takes on from playing against Savior. As long as he's fine with that, it's his choice.

IMO, it's a stupid decision and worthless PR risk on the part of Bisu though.
Meh
Carefree
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1571 Posts
October 10 2013 01:50 GMT
#45
Wait wait. To clear things up:

Did Bisu play vs. Savior or not?
DebOnAire - 「 Bisu[Shield] 」
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 10 2013 01:50 GMT
#46
On October 10 2013 10:50 Carefree wrote:
Wait wait. To clear things up:

Did Bisu play vs. Savior or not?


No, if you actually read the OP, you know it's a NO.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
October 10 2013 01:53 GMT
#47
@Carefree
On October 09 2013 08:30 BisuDagger wrote:
4. 10. MISC (P)Bisu watching his 2007 MSL Finals vs (Z)sAviOr on (Wiki)Blitz
4. 10. MISC (P)Bisu watching his EVER2007 OSL game vs (Z)sAviOr on (Wiki)Katrina

Bisu's only association with Savior on his stream so far.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 01:56:24
October 10 2013 01:54 GMT
#48
If you don't hate someone I hate, you're my enemy too?

>_>#

also why does he hate afreeca streaming? o0;; seems more like streaming as a whole, helped esports imo...
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 02:04 GMT
#49
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning
why so 진지해?
Carefree
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1571 Posts
October 10 2013 02:05 GMT
#50
On October 10 2013 10:50 larse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 10:50 Carefree wrote:
Wait wait. To clear things up:

Did Bisu play vs. Savior or not?


No, if you actually read the OP, you know it's a NO.


Right. It only states that they will play in the future, and did not explicitly state that they did not play already. I just wanted to clear things up so that no more people will come in and look down on Bisu for "playing with Savior".
DebOnAire - 「 Bisu[Shield] 」
Carefree
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1571 Posts
October 10 2013 02:06 GMT
#51
On October 10 2013 10:53 Hesmyrr wrote:
@Carefree
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2013 08:30 BisuDagger wrote:
4. 10. MISC (P)Bisu watching his 2007 MSL Finals vs (Z)sAviOr on (Wiki)Blitz
4. 10. MISC (P)Bisu watching his EVER2007 OSL game vs (Z)sAviOr on (Wiki)Katrina

Bisu's only association with Savior on his stream so far.


Thanks! Looks good.
DebOnAire - 「 Bisu[Shield] 」
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
October 10 2013 02:08 GMT
#52
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning


My brain is in a state of disbelief...

Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
October 10 2013 02:10 GMT
#53
It's tough to see people being able to go back to heroin when all you have are fucking nicotine patches I guess.
11 years and counting- TL #680
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 02:16:34
October 10 2013 02:14 GMT
#54
On October 10 2013 11:08 Ciryandor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning


My brain is in a state of disbelief...

Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.

It's one of those topics that keep getting brought up since match fixing scandal broke out, and in all cases people ruled that the finals had not been deliberately lost.

Even Koreans don't believe the finals was rigged, and they are like the cesspool of outrageous conspiracies.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
October 10 2013 02:16 GMT
#55
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning

I've often thought about that. But then again, Bisu murdered everyone after that. So it's no fluke. Just a scary thought we must dispell.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
October 10 2013 02:19 GMT
#56
On October 10 2013 11:16 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning

I've often thought about that. But then again, Bisu murdered everyone after that. So it's no fluke. Just a scary thought we must dispell.

a.k.a. PURGE REKRUL THE BS CHURCH INFIDEL
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 10 2013 02:19 GMT
#57
Yeah, reading the Korean it seems that Oov really is condemning the afreeca streaming of all the retired BW pros and not just specifically Bisu planning to play Savior. So unless Oov/the interviewer really fucked up the wording I'm just a bit exasperated that Oov would say such a thing.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 10 2013 02:23 GMT
#58
@ Koreasilver: y'know what now I'm kind of glad that Oov wasn't around when I first got into the BW scene. That guy sounds like a scumbag.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
October 10 2013 02:27 GMT
#59
Did not expect the hate for bw streaming
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 02:28:59
October 10 2013 02:27 GMT
#60
Considering most BW players do not like SC2, they probably don't care about hurting e-sports (i.e. SC2).

inb4 sAviOr is the one who fully revives the BW scene. lol
T P Z sagi
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 02:30:45
October 10 2013 02:28 GMT
#61
On October 10 2013 11:19 koreasilver wrote:
Yeah, reading the Korean it seems that Oov really is condemning the afreeca streaming of all the retired BW pros and not just specifically Bisu planning to play Savior. So unless Oov/the interviewer really fucked up the wording I'm just a bit exasperated that Oov would say such a thing.


edit: o im dum

that has to be a fuckup theres no way oov would say that
why so 진지해?
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
October 10 2013 02:30 GMT
#62
Wait so he's talking about those old games Bisu streamed where he played vs savior? -_-;;

Seems like an overreaction to me. However if Bisu were in fact chummy with savior and playing against him for balloons and stuff then I suppose I can see a reason for objection.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 02:34 GMT
#63
On October 10 2013 11:27 purakushi wrote:
Considering most BW players do not like SC2, they probably don't care about hurting e-sports (i.e. SC2).

inb4 sAviOr is the one who fully revives the BW scene. lol


savior should dig up some of the $ he has buried and sponsor a starleague secretly with a shell company (they wouldnt accept his sponsorship money directly out of pride)

then announce the fact that it was him right b4 the finals

i'd buy that movie
why so 진지해?
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 10 2013 02:40 GMT
#64
Considering Inven is not a KeSPA associated media, I won't be surprised that iloveoov is bolder to talk things like this.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
October 10 2013 02:42 GMT
#65
orion had stars
the second star till the right
fly on till morning
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
October 10 2013 02:49 GMT
#66
I know hes just truthfully answering a reporter's question but jesus oov... Bisu is not a progammer anymore. Hes not under Kespa's rule. Hes not under SKT rule. Your coaching sc2, the game that phased out pro bw in korea. Sure your doing great things for esports, but Bisu is the one doing good things for BW, the game he loves.

Let him do what he wants, even if it is with you-know-who.
Jaedong.
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 02:58:12
October 10 2013 02:56 GMT
#67
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.

You can tell that savior really did play a part in BW's undoing, looking at the way people are still angry at him. iloveoov sounds pretty pissed in the interview when he's talking about the subject. But people on TL are still savior fans and saying idiotic things like "he was young and didn't no any better, we should forgive him"? Speaks volumes about the maturity level of some people here.
Translator
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 03:01:38
October 10 2013 02:57 GMT
#68
Yeah, Oov's right. Bisu streaming is totally disrespectful to all the pro BW out there he's competing with.

Ignoring the Savior thing for a minute, the idea that streaming BW is "disrespectful" is exactly the kind of mindset that makes me kinda glad KeSPA switched. BW may be a lot smaller now, but it's in much better hands with Sonic. Their complete refusal to try anything different to bring back fans to BW after the matchfixing scandal and the release of SC2 (except giving an OSL an "Origin" theme, which just made them look whiny and petulant), was pitiful.

After the switch, there was a lot of fan hype for the whole "eSF vs KeSPA" rivalry, but KeSPA kept their teams out of GSTL and eSF teams out of proleague until no one cared anymore, which is one of the most shocking acts of marketing malpractice I've ever fucking seen. (Beating even "let's make all the teams think we're switching to SC2 next season so that they practice SC2 until the last minute and the BW games are lower quality!). Though, this is also the same organization that decided to switch to SC2 due to the high foreign interest and then filmed the English cast in a garage with half a microphone and a caster who openly hated SC2 and everything it stood for, and now nobody on any continent gives a shit about Proleague any more.

Not to even get into things like the ppp incident (which was garden-variety idiocy), or killing the BW GSL (Hindsight's a bitch on that one. If GOM was doing BW stuff and SC2 stuff at the same time, there would've been cross-promotion and maybe BW would've seen a lot of increased foreign interest to piggyback itself off SC2 a little. KeSPA might have even done that themselves! Hosting an SC2 league for eSF players and cross-promoting a BW league on it to get BW subs! But that would require acknowledging the passage of time)

There is a mindset that the way to save "eSports' is just to pretend it's still 2007. Where the fuck do they got off attacking players for streaming the game they went and fucked up? Why does Bisu have to become a fucking matchstick girl? This is BW's best chance for a revival, a real revival to properly paid full-time BW pros, and the folks running the KeSPA teams are hating on it out of spite.

Maybe Oov's been hanging out with Jessica. He reminds me of her, now.

On October 10 2013 11:08 Ciryandor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning


My brain is in a state of disbelief...

Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.


I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
October 10 2013 02:59 GMT
#69
Because in the western world, ordeals like this occur too often in the public view and its rarely harshly criticized so its sorta meh for everyone within that society. They just all accepted it and blame the downfall or underlying issue on bigger fish.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 03:04:27
October 10 2013 03:03 GMT
#70
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose


how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol
why so 진지해?
reminisce12
Profile Joined March 2012
Australia318 Posts
October 10 2013 03:05 GMT
#71
did bisu already stream with savior or is he planning to do it in the future?
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 03:07:20
October 10 2013 03:06 GMT
#72
On October 10 2013 12:03 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose


how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol


Have you read Freakonomics? There's a thing on Sumo wrestlers and matchfixing there. The people most likely to matchfix are the people who are kind of good. The tip-top players are winning too much to blow it, and the C-list players aren't good enough to be worth betting on. We saw this with the BW matchfixing, where the players were all known, but the only really "big" name involved (Savior himself) was well past his prime.

Unless of course...


.....

Savior was blackmailed! Mendoza was behind it all along!
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
October 10 2013 03:07 GMT
#73
On October 10 2013 12:05 reminisce12 wrote:
did bisu already stream with savior or is he planning to do it in the future?


nah he didnt. He just watched his famous games vs him on stream.
Broodwar for life!
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
October 10 2013 03:09 GMT
#74
On October 10 2013 12:06 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 12:03 Rekrul wrote:
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose


how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol


Have you read Freakonomics? There's a thing on Sumo wrestlers and matchfixing there. The people most likely to matchfix are the people who are kind of good. The tip-top players are winning too much to blow it, and the C-list players aren't good enough to be worth betting on. We saw this with the BW matchfixing, where the players were all known, but the only really "big" name involved (Savior himself) was well past his prime.

Unless of course...


.....

Savior was blackmailed! Mendoza was behind it all along!


Such a bad punchline
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 10 2013 03:11 GMT
#75
On October 10 2013 11:57 Ribbon wrote:

Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:08 Ciryandor wrote:
On October 10 2013 11:04 Rekrul wrote:
what if 2006-2007 MBCGame StarCraft League Season 1 where savior was a massive favorite / fan favorite and bisu clean sweeped him

..was the beginning


My brain is in a state of disbelief...

Anybody want to watch that series for any signs that sAviOr just gave up on the series? 0-3 against Bisu would probably be the most unlikely betting scoreline available there, and could have yielded the biggest return.


I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose


Add to that, the PvZ match up was fucked up after that final until 5-hatch build w/ more 'balanced' maps came and normalized everything .. I think the only thing Kespa did great was the map pool.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Dr.Ultralisk
Profile Joined October 2013
6 Posts
October 10 2013 03:13 GMT
#76
Sigh, Savior, when can he ever live a normal life.
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
October 10 2013 03:26 GMT
#77
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.

This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
wptlzkwjd
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1240 Posts
October 10 2013 03:55 GMT
#78
On October 10 2013 12:13 Dr.Ultralisk wrote:
Sigh, Savior, when can he ever live a normal life.


When he builds a time machine and goes back in time and beats Bisu for his 4th MSL title.
Feel free to add me on steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/MagnusAskeland/
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50120 Posts
October 10 2013 04:02 GMT
#79
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.


ah that makes more sense to me.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
We Are Here
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Australia1810 Posts
October 10 2013 04:07 GMT
#80
On October 10 2013 12:26 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.

This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
We are allowed to forgive, staying bitter forever wont help.
He who turns those around him into allies, possesses the most terrifying ability in the world.
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
October 10 2013 04:07 GMT
#81
On October 10 2013 13:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.


ah that makes more sense to me.

i cant read korean, but i agree i think oov wouldnt be the person to tell afreeca players that they're hurting bw, i think he just means dont go attracting attention and views towards someone who "disgraced" the game.
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
October 10 2013 04:08 GMT
#82
If oov is upset because he doesn't want savior glorified in any way, I can understand. Not necessarily agree with the conclusion, but can understand.

But if oov just doesn't think people should play BW on afreeca, that just makes me sad.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 04:10:55
October 10 2013 04:08 GMT
#83
So one of the most accomplished progamers in Kespa's history retires, and rather than saying anything commemorative of his career or noting the loss it is to Kespa he decides to immediately bash the player, and speculate on his future actions involving everyone's favorite scapegoat. I hope some editor cut something out...otherwise it just seems a incredibly douchey thing to do, regardless of Oov's personal feelings towards Bisu. Bisu's relations with Savior wasn't the question... or am I missing something? (I can't read the original question or answer myself.)
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 04:16:39
October 10 2013 04:13 GMT
#84
On October 10 2013 12:03 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
I can say with complete certainty that those finals were legit, simply because Savior had way too much to lose


how can u say that not knowing how much he stood to gain lol

We know that individual league titles + cash bonuses from their teams are worth a few ten-thousand dollars IIRC, but if the betting leverage is like 10-1 or more he could have easily pocketed a few HUNDRED K of cash plus the money for actually throwing. Then again, watching those matches, we can't reliably say that it was an actual throw any less than Bisu just did a stomp with marginally favorable maps.

As for oov and his statements:

cue conspiracy theory hat

Given what we've heard about a rapidly declining salary base for Proleague players and the fact that Bisu was an SKT team member as well, what if his statements are meant to inflame people into realizing that there IS a Brood War community of former players who stream if audiences really don't want to watch SC2? Not everyone can watch OGN, and he definitely can't make that kind of statement there; but he can just off-handedly react in this way in a less controlled outlet to make people realize that "Hey whoa, I remember ex-pro B, S and J playing before on TV, I never realized they're now showing their games somewhere else!" and at the same time, remind everyone to NOT deal with the scumbags.

Edit:

On October 10 2013 13:07 We Are Here wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 12:26 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.

This makes way more sense. Any ex-BW pro supporting/playing with Savior for cash is despicable.
We are allowed to forgive, staying bitter forever wont help.


Only if said party shows appropriate contrition AND behavior that shows sincerity in doing so. I'd watch Hwasin if he streamed as long as he does it for fun and doesn't go begging for money out of it, since he's moved on from the whole scandal with his actions and words; but the lack of similar behavior from Mr. Ma is a definite deal-breaker.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10154 Posts
October 10 2013 04:31 GMT
#85
as much as i love savior and hate bisu (jk i love bisu but hate him in a player sense xD) oov has no right to say that bisu has been lowered to saviors level. absolutely no right. savior committed a crime. sure. so now just because they are still friends, that automatically makes bisu the same level as a match fixer as well? thats a terrible thing to say from oov. no1s everyone going to be as low as savior, as much as i hate to say bad things about him. but whats happened has happened. you might not let go of it, but dont start blindly hating on people jsut because they still are friends with him.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
October 10 2013 04:41 GMT
#86
bisu is so cute and funny, there's no way he's as evil as savior
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 10 2013 04:42 GMT
#87
The title and oov's statement make this sound a lot worse than I feel it actually is. Yeah, what savior did was horrible and all, but that was a while ago and honestly you're going out of your way to condemn someone for merely playing some games with the guy. And I don't even like Bisu... >.>
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
October 10 2013 04:44 GMT
#88
Whatever the case, Bisu should at least be careful not to be seen publicly talking to or playing against Savior, especially on stream. It's obvious that it's still a touchy issue, especially for someone of his celebrity. For his sake, it's best to keep such interactions in private rather than risk losing fans and viewers who might still be sensitive to the whole issue. Extra balloons just don't seem to be worth a potential shitstorm.
TricksAre4Figs
Profile Joined May 2010
United States125 Posts
October 10 2013 05:07 GMT
#89
First of all, I'm very curious how old the people are who are calling iloveoov names and insulting him. iloveoov is one of the best players of all time, so is bisu. Saviour did an unforgivable thing to the BW industry, an industry cherished by millions of people in South Korea. He hurt everyone involved and made a lot of people sad, and his transgressions have not been soon forgotten. And whether anyone agrees with it or not, Bisu associating himself with Saviour looks bad for Bisu. As one of the best players of all time it is an honor and privilege for anyone to get a game with Bisu. Those of us were true hardcore BW players know how hard it was to get games with highly respected and skilled opponents.

For Bisu to game with SAviour is to give Saviour something he no longer deserves and leaves a bad taste in everyone else's mouth.
Liquid crystal display everyday.
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 05:47:33
October 10 2013 05:17 GMT
#90
What you guys don't understand is what was officially exposed in the scandal is only a surface of what many believe actually occurred. You're seeing it from an outsider's perspective as the mistake and greed of a singular entity when it was the collective failure of the entire industry and cast a dark shadow on e-sports right after it broke into the mainstream.

This was a lot more than just that 'young naive Savior' that got led astray. It was the greed on the part of many people that led to this scandal and Savior is the figure that embodes this ugliness.

EDIT: it's amusing some of the comments in this thread. Oov and savior were both bonjwas and entrusted to become the leaders/faces of e-sports. Oov goes on to preserve the SKT Terran legacy even after he destroyed his wrist while playing. The other cashes in and ruins other peoples lives. 'Who is this loud-mouthed iloveoov and who is he to judge our glorious Zerg messiah?' iloveoov's comments are probably on the tamer side compared to what the zealous netizens think about this.
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10341 Posts
October 10 2013 05:26 GMT
#91
Well, oov is an sc2 coach now, so he's clearly moved on, why can't the rest of us get on with out lives as well?

Savior is scum, but it doesn't mean no one should ever have any relationship with him again... He's a slimeball, not the antichrist.
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 10 2013 05:39 GMT
#92
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend? No one is ignorant of Oov's stature in the scene, but I respect him as a player and as a coach, not as some kind of Grand Inquisitor that thinks its necessary for people to ostracize Savior not just in the professional scene (which is still undergoing and probably won't ever change, justifiably so) but in private and in casual games too. Savior isn't some kind of boogeyman, but maybe it's just too difficult for people to avoid making scapegoats (which is rife in TL.net too - it isn't uncommon to read people posting about how Savior literally ruined BW and led to the dissolution of the professional scene, which is comical beyond belief).
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 05:47:03
October 10 2013 05:42 GMT
#93
On October 10 2013 07:35 larse wrote:
Update:
Some other translators (who know Korean) confirmed that in the original Korean source, iloveoov indeed bashes the entire BW streaming, not just Bisu's relationship with savior: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676#11 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=3#57
I apologize in advance for any translation issue and misunderstanding.


WTH Oov? A move seriously lacking in class and unworthy of a former bonjwa, even if Kespa told him to say it he should have told them where they can shove it.

That said I can empathize with his feelings regarding savior, I don't care if Bisu wants to play with savior occasionally, they are(or were) friends, it's hard to be a decent person AND cut a friend out. But he definitely shouldn't stream it if he does, for the sake of his reputation and for what remains of the BW scene, he probably should ask savior not to stream it either.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Gescom
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada3396 Posts
October 10 2013 05:48 GMT
#94
Oov needs to relax.
Jaedong Hyuk || Bisu Jangbi || Fantasy Flash
l10f *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3241 Posts
October 10 2013 05:55 GMT
#95
On October 10 2013 14:42 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 07:35 larse wrote:
Update:
Some other translators (who know Korean) confirmed that in the original Korean source, iloveoov indeed bashes the entire BW streaming, not just Bisu's relationship with savior: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676#11 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=3#57
I apologize in advance for any translation issue and misunderstanding.


WTH Oov? A move seriously lacking in class and unworthy of a former bonjwa, even if Kespa told him to say it he should have told them where they can shove it.

That said I can empathize with his feelings regarding savior, I don't care if Bisu wants to play with savior occasionally, they are(or were) friends, it's hard to be a decent person AND cut a friend out. But he definitely shouldn't stream it if he does, for the sake of his reputation and for what remains of the BW scene, he probably should ask savior not to stream it either.


I read the original korean and im pretty sure that hes just condemning those who play with savior. It can be interpreted both ways but after reading it a few times im convinced that hes only bashing bw streamers who played with savior.

Just my opinion though~
Writer
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
October 10 2013 05:57 GMT
#96
Anyone interested in translating more/all of the interview? :p. Oov interviews are always fun.
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 10 2013 05:58 GMT
#97
Yeah, after rereading it a few times I think it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Oov condemning just for playing with Savior, which is far more reasonable than condemning the entirety of the streaming ex-pro community. I still think it's nonsense though, even if we were to interpret Oov more favourably, no matter how understandable his sentiments may be.
nekotrap
Profile Joined April 2011
130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 06:00:29
October 10 2013 05:59 GMT
#98
Hiya, Sea, Pusan, Terror, Shuttle, Larva...practically every retired BW-Pro streaming on Afreeca has played and streamed games with Savior.

edit: retired*
A broken carrot is more than enough for the likes of you
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
October 10 2013 06:05 GMT
#99
On October 10 2013 13:41 dRaW wrote:
bisu is so cute and funny, there's no way he's as evil as savior

En Taro Violet
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
October 10 2013 06:34 GMT
#100
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 06:38 GMT
#101
On October 10 2013 14:58 koreasilver wrote:
Yeah, after rereading it a few times I think it makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Oov condemning just for playing with Savior, which is far more reasonable than condemning the entirety of the streaming ex-pro community. I still think it's nonsense though, even if we were to interpret Oov more favourably, no matter how understandable his sentiments may be.


I don't think it's nonsense to say that certain people shouldn't associate themselves with certain people if they care about the integrity of the scene, what savior did in respect to the match making in the past is long past yes, but his behavior while he's been streaming on Afreeca has been pretty consistently bad, not showing any remorse or apologizing for what he did. If Bisu is going to stream playing with Savior with the sole goal of making money for himself / cashing in on the old rivalry then there is some ground to say that he shouldn't do that, if Savior uses the platform to stop being such an asshole then maybe it could be something good.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Seraphic
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3849 Posts
October 10 2013 06:40 GMT
#102
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.

However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.

Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.

I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.
Natus Vincere Fan | Team Secret Fan | SK Telecom T1 Fan | Lanaya the Templar Assassin <3
Kergy
Profile Joined December 2010
Peru2011 Posts
October 10 2013 06:44 GMT
#103
wonder if he'd be happier if Bisu had chosen the option of playing a game he doesn't enjoy in front of 5 people at the OGN studio
Everyday Girl's Day~!
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 06:45 GMT
#104
On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote:
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.

However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.

Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.

I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.


I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Seraphic
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3849 Posts
October 10 2013 06:53 GMT
#105
On October 10 2013 15:45 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 15:40 Seraphic wrote:
I understand oov's anger over this. He is one of the pioneers of modern SC scene and he cannot forgive Savior for the damage he has done to the BW community. That is ok because I still haven't forgiven Savior myself.

However if he is truly angry at Bisu for playing with Savior I think he needs to re-word things a little. Bisu is one of the best Protoss player ever graced Starcraft as a whole and if he choose to return to play a bit of BW before service that's fine. Playing vs Savior is... awkward yes but comon this is Bisu here. I never seen Bisu angry, or vengeful at anyone before, not that I can ever remember.

Oov is probably upset that they played and are on friendly terms, and to a person like oov, who has done what he has done for the SC community, he's anger is probably justified but misplaced. Bisu is Bisu, people will love him regardless, he has more then earned his place among the Hall of Legends for Starcraft.

I am a bit upset at oov for what he has said about Bisu, especially for ALL that Bisu has done for Starcraft. (As much as oov), so I HOPE oov's choice of words isn't what I hope it is because that wouldn't feel right for me.


I think you are mistaking temperament for principle, it's good to have a kind heart and not lash out or be angry at people, but certain priorities override that, there are certain things you should be angry about regardless of what your temperament is and oov is angry at savior (and by extension bisu) for principled reasons not because he has a bad temper.


Well Bisu has always been quiet, so none of us really know what he thinks about what happened during that scandal. I do hope Bisu rethinks his relationship with Savior if it turns out they are on friendly terms.

My point is oov's way of saying things in this situation isn't right unless he knows exactly what is going on between Savior and all the former pros he has played with in Afreeca. I don't hate oov, I'm a SKT person and I adore him, but Bisu was SKT and a long time member, and someone instrumental to SKT's success. I know oov always has his way of saying things, but this isn't just another Pro that retired, this is Bisu.

Savior has more then gotten what he has deserved and he shouldn't ever be given anymore attention. I'm just hoping oov is more angry with Savior then he is with former pros that happen to run into him in Afreeca.
Natus Vincere Fan | Team Secret Fan | SK Telecom T1 Fan | Lanaya the Templar Assassin <3
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
October 10 2013 06:59 GMT
#106
I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
SamirDuran
Profile Joined May 2012
Philippines894 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 07:17:39
October 10 2013 07:16 GMT
#107
On October 10 2013 15:59 figq wrote:
I'm of the few who even think Savior should be invited to SOSPA events, since they are only at the semi-pro/amateur level. Thus, I'm really glad if Bisu is friendly towards Savior or supports him in any way.


I think he tried to join but the sonicTV viewers still hates savior Sonic didn't allow him to play on his events
Don't practice until you can get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong.
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 07:16 GMT
#108
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny
why so 진지해?
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
October 10 2013 07:35 GMT
#109
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny

I think it's alot more like "Savior gtfo of Afreeca" would be the attitutde imo, instead of this other thing.

Thinking it through, I can understand a bit better why OOV wouldnt want bisu to stream while playing matches with savior
In the woods, there lurks..
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 07:54:57
October 10 2013 07:49 GMT
#110
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny



i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one

i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over

edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha

edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 08:00:45
October 10 2013 07:56 GMT
#111
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny



i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one

i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over

would u still think that, if oov only meant that playing vs savior is a bad idea(which is completely understandable), remember the translation said they havnt played yet so its kinda more of a heavy suggestion, also its unclear what he meant on the afreeca thing.
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 08:02:34
October 10 2013 07:57 GMT
#112
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny



i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one

i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over

edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha


i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol

but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact...

bisu playing savior on stream would be a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he wouldn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...

and just because gangs being there enabled savior to do what he did it's not like they put a gun to his head lol
why so 진지해?
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
October 10 2013 07:58 GMT
#113
I find it funny how people are screaming "oov is a jerk for saying this stuff when he doesn't know what's really going on"

when we don't even really know what he meant.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 08:01:49
October 10 2013 07:58 GMT
#114
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny



i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one

i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over

edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha

edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT


Are you downs? Match-fixing/betting usually means mafia involvement. I'm sorry if you think corporate misdoings is the real evil of society, #soedgy #saviorisscarface #fkskt.


User was warned for this post
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 08:08:41
October 10 2013 08:00 GMT
#115
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny


i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit 3 : I HOPE HE PLAYS SAVIOR ALL DAY LONG AND THAT PPL THROW MONEY AT HIM FOR IT

and Oov is the retarded one?
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
October 10 2013 08:00 GMT
#116
On October 10 2013 16:57 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 16:16 Rekrul wrote:
On October 10 2013 15:34 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 14:39 koreasilver wrote:
And are people just selectively forgetting that Bisu and Savior were friends in the later part of Savior's career? No one is saying that what Savior did should be forgotten, but being unable to forgive says a lot about a person too. Are you really going to say that a friend shouldn't ever forgive a friend?

Forgiveness between friends is fine but publically adding to his streaming income on Afreeca is not. Bisu would also make money just by streaming such a high profile match. It's unethical and immensely disrespectful to those who were shafted by Savior's actions (for which he's shown no contrition).


yea, also no one would be arguing against oov's stance in this thread if the scandal had happened more recently, which is funny



i have a hard time following your moral scheme en this one

i think oov's stance is totatlly retarded and tainted by jealousy

edit: besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over

edit 2 : funny how you guys don't even see that basically skt doesn't want bisu to be able to make money on his name because he prolly retired against skt's will haha


i don't have a moral stance on this i'd prefer to see bisu play savior lol

but it's still very understandable for people whos entire lives were BW to not want the guy who betrayed everyone in their industry to stand to continue to benefit from that industry after the fact...

bisu playing savior on stream is a big 'fuck you' to everyone who was involved in the BW scene at that time, even though he doesn't intend it that way...and it'd be incredibly naive for him to not realize it...

In the other thread, (bisu is streaming!) someone said that some fans suggested it and bisu said he didnt really want to. If thats the case i think hes already knows its a bad idea, and it might have just leaked around and turned into bisu is playing savior through misguided whispers
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
October 10 2013 08:01 GMT
#117
Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.

Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 08:11:14
October 10 2013 08:10 GMT
#118
On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.

Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.


lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
October 10 2013 08:11 GMT
#119
Ma Bonjovi aside, this attack on BW streaming reveals that oov or KeSPA by extension can see that SC2 is a dead end for them.
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
October 10 2013 08:13 GMT
#120
On October 10 2013 17:10 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 17:01 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Ohh Gorilla Terran the drama queen, go eat some bananas.

Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money 3+ years ago? Savior.
Who abandoned BW and went the way of the money recently? SKT1 and rest of KESPA.


lol. Seriously? They went the way of the money? I don't even. Do you know how painful it was for the players and coaches to switch over? How painful it was for MBC to close down and OGN to restructure? "Rest of Kespa" what does that even mean, if you are referring to all the casters, personnel who worked at studios, or even the corporate staff in Kespa, they lost way more than they gained. I hope no Korean casters or players ever see comments like this because it's burning my eyes.

thank you putting it a cool head manner, i refrained from replying
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
radadaundandan
Profile Joined May 2007
Bulgaria3148 Posts
October 10 2013 08:24 GMT
#121
Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.
Flash returns...
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
October 10 2013 08:27 GMT
#122
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.

I'm pointing that out not to convince you to hate him, but to show how absurd it is that he's still milking the scene he helped destroy, while those innocent kids who were wronged are expected to just get over it and go away.

Rather than hating on or supporting Savior, please try to channel your energy into supporting the players that are still struggling as a result of his actions.
En Taro Violet
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 10 2013 08:49 GMT
#123
On October 10 2013 17:11 ShadeR wrote:
Ma Bonjovi aside, this attack on BW streaming reveals that oov or KeSPA by extension can see that SC2 is a dead end for them.


They can always switch back to BW, right? I mean, they aren't blizzard's bitches on this one, right?

Once you become a bitch, you never go back.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
October 10 2013 09:07 GMT
#124
On October 10 2013 17:24 radadaundandan wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.


Forgiveness only comes to those who ask for it, it is earned as well as given.

Savior hasn't even tried to earn it, as such, noone is obligated to give it to him.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
October 10 2013 09:10 GMT
#125
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
October 10 2013 09:13 GMT
#126
On October 10 2013 17:24 radadaundandan wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.


There's a difference between re-integrating someone into society and welcoming them back into their previous place in society. I can believe that Saviors re-rehabilitated, and I can want for everyone to give him a chance and to succeed in his life, without wishing for him to return to e-sports.

If a football coach was fking kids, I'd be ok with him running a hardware shop. I wouldn't want him back in high school, coaching kids, even if I believe he was 'cured.'
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 10 2013 09:25 GMT
#127
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia457 Posts
October 10 2013 09:29 GMT
#128
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 09:39:48
October 10 2013 09:35 GMT
#129
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
October 10 2013 09:36 GMT
#130
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.
En Taro Violet
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 10 2013 09:42 GMT
#131
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
October 10 2013 09:58 GMT
#132
On October 10 2013 18:42 flashimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
If legends don't contribute, who do?
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 10:00 GMT
#133
On October 10 2013 18:42 flashimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?


Really? Do you need a source about Boxer's contributions too? Or maybe one on Kim Carrier?
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
October 10 2013 10:04 GMT
#134
Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....

These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
October 10 2013 10:06 GMT
#135
On October 10 2013 09:10 PassiveAce wrote:
I wasnt around for the savior scandal so I guess I don't know the entire story but...
It seems a little weird to call Bisu 'on the same level as savior' because hes streaming with him years after the event.

The event (organized match fixing, for the benefit of criminals) traumatized a lot of players and fans. While Savior still should be treated as a human, I think he has lost the rights to be acknowledged as a player.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:13:47
October 10 2013 10:08 GMT
#136
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth

IMO savior should have a second chance to redeem himself, and if its by teaching new players his knowledge, who are we to criticize him?
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:13:00
October 10 2013 10:11 GMT
#137
On October 10 2013 19:04 zeo wrote:
Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....

These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.


Say someone was banned from baseball for doping, not only so but he was the organizer for distributing a culture of doping in not only his team but with in many other rising stars in other major teams, say someone was caught for doping but refuses to even acknowledge or apologize for the fact that he was doping, say someone gets banned professionally but still makes money from the exact sport he was banned from, say someone who was banned professionally is trying to play with former clean retirees for personal fame and money, etc etc etc etc.

On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth


iloveoov probably fought longer and harder for BW than you have graced the internet with your posts.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 10 2013 10:17 GMT
#138
On October 10 2013 19:00 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:42 flashimba wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?


Really? Do you need a source about Boxer's contributions too? Or maybe one on Kim Carrier?


Brilliant logic. Boxer and Kim Carrier contributing means oov contributed too. I applaud you kid.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:19:04
October 10 2013 10:18 GMT
#139
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
October 10 2013 10:19 GMT
#140
On October 10 2013 19:11 Caihead wrote:


iloveoov probably fought longer and harder for BW than you have graced the internet with your posts.


iloveoov just wants to profit from whats left of sc2 scene, and the fact that he knows he would make more money streaming in afreeca pisses him off
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
October 10 2013 10:19 GMT
#141
On October 10 2013 18:58 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:42 flashimba wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
If legends don't contribute, who do?


You know who else was a legend who had no business destroying the scene regardless of any contribution they had made?
~
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 10:20 GMT
#142
lol sorry then if translation is incorrect

but im pretty sure its not so far from what he said

koreans are 1# country at jumping the high horse and acting like parangons of moral

to me it pretty much looks like a direct attack from kespa / ogn to the afreeca scene

it always worked this way....
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 10:22 GMT
#143
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 10 2013 10:23 GMT
#144
On October 10 2013 18:58 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 18:42 flashimba wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:25 flashimba wrote:
Coming out of retirement and finding out that your new occupation is completely different and terrible can really damage your mindset. Then you look around the corner and see other people enjoying your old job, you can't help but rage, and find any reason to put them down.

Not surprised at all.

oov, I am disappoint.


Hahaha that's really funny, saying that oov even went into retirement instead of just doing mandatory military service; that going back to head coaching SKT, one of the oldest and most respected esports teams, is a terrible occupation; and that oov, one of the few legends who was there while they built the fucking industry and was eating ramen and cleaning dishes when there wasn't even a thing like stable salary contracts, is the type of person who would just lash out and find any reason to put down "people enjoying your old job" when there is no professional BW left now. Ah hahahaha masterfully done sir, I applaud you.

Oh wait you are serious.

On October 10 2013 18:29 AleXoundOS wrote:
Oh, iloveoov, if you bash the entire BW streaming, provide another reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money. And you, showing such attitude towards retired players, hurt esports even more.
I wish your words were misinterpreted.


You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

Kids these days.


You have any source about oov's contributions or are you saying that anyone around during the early days also contributed to the scene?
If legends don't contribute, who do?


No one is saying oov didn't contribute. Every progamer and progaming related job contributed. I was interested in knowing how oov stood out from the rest in changing the industry to be one where players earnt a stable salary. Did he form a players' union of some sort?
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 10:25 GMT
#145
just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:

- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players"
- and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.
POGGERS
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 10:29 GMT
#146
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote:
just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:

- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players"
- and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.


guess oov going apeshit is a big indicator of the original pro scene decline and soon death
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:00:31
October 10 2013 10:30 GMT
#147
Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.

Everyone else go research what's being said instead of reading the two most recent posts and giving your uninformed opinion.

EDIT: Yes people that do TRANSLATIONS read the entire article and try to understand the context. They are also careful about the implications of their translations. They don't stir shit by extrapolating from an open interpretation of a particular segment of the interview.
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
October 10 2013 10:32 GMT
#148
Correct me if I am wrong but Bisu didn't even play savior. He was streaming the MSL finals that he won. I am going by the list at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431580
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 10:32 GMT
#149
On October 10 2013 19:30 Pathos wrote:
Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.


sup ? "Korean-Americans" with their "shitty translations" are making this site live since forever ?
maybe you should rather thank them, all these shitty korean americans, for all the work they done ?
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50120 Posts
October 10 2013 10:32 GMT
#150
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote:
just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:

- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players"
- and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.


I thought anyone who associates themselves to sonic's tournaments, by rule are not allowed to associate with people involved in the scandal though?
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:51:04
October 10 2013 10:35 GMT
#151
On October 10 2013 19:32 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:30 Pathos wrote:
Srsly, more Korean-Americans come forward with your shitty translations and anti-BW conspiracy theories.


sup ? "Korean-Americans" with their "shitty translations" are making this site live since forever ?
maybe you should rather thank them, all these shitty korean americans, for all the work they done ?


Get the fk out son: "when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits"

The only person on their high moral ground in this thread is you.

One person's interpretation de-railed this entire thread into a pointless SC2 vs BW discussion. As much as I dislike SC2 and like BW, the idiocy of the people attacking iloveoov and SC2 is making this community look bad.

iloveoov is the HEAD coach of SKT, and he is still incredibly skeptical (yet hopeful) of Blizzard's development of SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430737. He is one of the most recognized strategists who continued to study and develop the game after he wasn't able to physically compete anymore. He is the last person you can accuse of abandoning the game.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:40:18
October 10 2013 10:36 GMT
#152
On October 10 2013 19:32 flashimba wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but Bisu didn't even play savior. He was streaming the MSL finals that he won. I am going by the list at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431580

yeah but in the translation oov states bisu plays with savior. either he knows something we dont or he misunderstood about bisu watching his old games (which i highly doubt, given that we're talking about oov here)

On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

i'm korean and i feel that is kinda offensive :/ not all are like that. please don't generalise kthx

On October 10 2013 19:32 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:25 konadora wrote:
just to clarify in case people still think there is mistranslation:

- iloveoov heavily condemning bisu playing with savior (guilty by association) and saying "bisu isn't sparing a thought for what savior did and the negative impact he left on the scene and other players"
- and because of that, also condemns all other streamers who are also playing with savior, not just any streamer.


I thought anyone who associates themselves to sonic's tournaments, by rule are not allowed to associate with people involved in the scandal though?


but we dont know for sure if bisu DID indeed play with savior (there were rumors that they did though, right?). and i'm sure there are some players who go around this rule. even sonic admitted there was matchmaking long time ago and still continued anyway. it's kind of those evil that can't be fully eradicated sadly. you can't 100% stop one player from playing with another on the internet.
POGGERS
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 10:44:56
October 10 2013 10:43 GMT
#153
Yeah that's why this is the first warning any person in Korea will often give you when you try doing business.

edit: this is so fucked up i'm so tired of this bye
Highways
Profile Joined July 2005
Australia6103 Posts
October 10 2013 10:45 GMT
#154
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?
#1 Terran hater
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
October 10 2013 11:06 GMT
#155
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:18:05
October 10 2013 11:12 GMT
#156
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 10 2013 11:13 GMT
#157
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


In all honesty, I think this is the reason why oov hates Savior
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
October 10 2013 11:13 GMT
#158
Thats probably one of the dumbest things ive ever read.
much respect lost
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
October 10 2013 11:19 GMT
#159
Back the fuck off from the Afreeca scene, please
ggaemo fan
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
October 10 2013 11:20 GMT
#160
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.
TL+ Member
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:26:41
October 10 2013 11:20 GMT
#161
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

So racism is ok as long as you don't care what people call your race?

Indians are all hypocritical douches in business and I can say that because I live with one. Is that how it works?

I thought you said you were leaving?

edit: I wish the OP would put the fixed translation up (he's only attacking those who play Savior on Afreeca) so we stop seeing stupid kneejerk posts.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Shana
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Indonesia1814 Posts
October 10 2013 11:21 GMT
#162
I know oov is kind of douche but this is really fucking low.
Believing in what lies ahead. | That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet.
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:24:38
October 10 2013 11:23 GMT
#163
On October 10 2013 20:20 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

So racism is ok as long as you don't care what people call your race?

Indians are all hypocritical douches in business and I can say that because I live with one. Is that how it works?

I thought you said you were leaving?


there are no races ?
I'm merely talking about cultural and social aspects of a given country.
ANd nationality is certainly not a race.
I think most of human cultures are obnoxious and perverted.
Koreans are no exception to it and have certain egocentric traits provided by their fucked up family and social scheme that make them do dumb shit and act a way that is laughable.

koreans are so touchy about their shitty national pride
it's fun actually you call me racist when Korea is one of the most xenophobic culture of the whole eastern asia.
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:29:43
October 10 2013 11:24 GMT
#164
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)


On October 10 2013 16:49 Boonbag wrote:
besides that, given korea's overall state of corruption at every level of society, i always thought it hyprocrit to blame a couple pro gamers for fixing matches when gangs were looming over


On October 10 2013 19:20 Boonbag wrote:
koreans are 1# country at jumping the high horse and acting like parangons of moral

it always worked this way....


On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....


You living with a Korean doesn't give you a right to shit all over them. And whether you would care or not if someone attacks the French is irrelevant. Kona's already told you he finds it offensive and your post has been reported, that should give you some indication of whether you're being offensive or not. Stop being a prick.
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 11:25 GMT
#165
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)
POGGERS
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:26:59
October 10 2013 11:26 GMT
#166
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
October 10 2013 11:27 GMT
#167
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

You talking about shitty attitudes is pretty ironic.
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 11:27 GMT
#168
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.
POGGERS
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 11:28 GMT
#169
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn
KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25657 Posts
October 10 2013 11:29 GMT
#170
How about we get back on topic now.
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 11:29 GMT
#171
On October 10 2013 20:28 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
[quote]

The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn

lmao
POGGERS
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
October 10 2013 11:30 GMT
#172
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 11:33 GMT
#173
On October 10 2013 20:29 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:28 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
[quote]
There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn

lmao


I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...


User was warned for this post
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 11:33 GMT
#174
On October 10 2013 20:33 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:29 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:28 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
[quote]

All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn

lmao


I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...

i didn't vote for her. fyi.
POGGERS
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
October 10 2013 11:33 GMT
#175
On October 10 2013 20:33 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:33 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:29 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:28 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
[quote]

thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn

lmao


I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...

i didn't vote for her. fyi.


that's not the point.....
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
October 10 2013 11:35 GMT
#176
On October 10 2013 20:33 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:33 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:33 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:29 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:28 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:27 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
[quote]
Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)


actually cultural pride is the anti chamber of nationalism

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

i am genuinely speechless.


that's the best way to learn

lmao


I guess it's hard to make people that elected the daughter of a bloody dictator for their own president understand what's actually wrong with thinking your own culture is virtuous / good...

i didn't vote for her. fyi.


that's not the point.....

when you are generalising the entire population, yes it is.

i'm not even going to continue this anymore. whatever man.
POGGERS
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:40:06
October 10 2013 11:38 GMT
#177
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.

i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.
On October 10 2013 20:26 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:25 konadora wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.


you could bash french ppl all day long i'd hardly give a fuck
and i dont bash koreans every fucking sentence
im actually living with one

edit : and i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

..? wow is it really a crime to be proud of my own culture

i dont see people bashing on french (not that you seem to care)

and yes beeing proud of your own culture is actually a pretty shitty attitude to have

wtf is wrong with you
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Boonbag
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France3318 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:45:50
October 10 2013 11:40 GMT
#178
On October 10 2013 20:38 Scarecrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.

i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.


hahaah what you just mentioned as the "good" traits is basically what i despise
now i understand where you ppl stand
deep right into the national propaganda that did so much wrong and made so many ppl suffer in korea
i know what i'm talking first hand and you obviously don't sir

User was banned for this post. Requested via PM.
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
October 10 2013 11:42 GMT
#179
Can you guys continue this somewhere else? I am not interested in what you have to say, nor do I want this thread to turn into a public shaming.
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 11:43 GMT
#180
LOL
why so 진지해?
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
October 10 2013 11:43 GMT
#181
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.
TL+ Member
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1556 Posts
October 10 2013 11:44 GMT
#182
Even in disgrace sAviOr has more fame than oov. People are moving on, haterz gonna hate. Maybe TL should recruit oov, they like this ban life shit mentality.


No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5479 Posts
October 10 2013 11:47 GMT
#183
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth

IMO savior should have a second chance to redeem himself, and if its by teaching new players his knowledge, who are we to criticize him?

Does anybody find it funny that the discussion in this thread revolves around a:

- a Terran Bonjwa
- a Zerg Bonjwa
and a Protoss Near-Bonjwa
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:57:41
October 10 2013 11:47 GMT
#184
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene. LIke literally, it seems like some people can not separate the player from the person. If this were a b-teamer or even another Terran champion, no one would defend him.
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:50:19
October 10 2013 11:49 GMT
#185
On October 10 2013 08:08 GGzerG wrote:
Hmm....this is kinda sad, I don't think Bisu should be treated wrongly for wanting to play vs sAviOr, I mean hell, who wouldn't want to play vs sAviOr ? It's like the final evil boss to beat in BW. :O

i really dont understand why we felt that savior was the evil boss while JD is the Hero .. where they do the same thing .. stand on top of the zerg race

and yep savior might still be broken in terms of zvp
this is a quote
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 11:52:47
October 10 2013 11:50 GMT
#186
On October 10 2013 20:47 thezanursic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth

IMO savior should have a second chance to redeem himself, and if its by teaching new players his knowledge, who are we to criticize him?

Does anybody find it funny that the discussion in this thread revolves around a:

- a Terran Bonjwa
- a Zerg Bonjwa
and a Protoss Near-Bonjwa


so many bonjwa

the weirder part is that

the terran bonjwa dominating streak was ended by the zerg bonjwa that also his dominating streak was ended by the Protoss near-bonjwa
this is a quote
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5479 Posts
October 10 2013 11:55 GMT
#187
On October 10 2013 20:50 goody153 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:47 thezanursic wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth

IMO savior should have a second chance to redeem himself, and if its by teaching new players his knowledge, who are we to criticize him?

Does anybody find it funny that the discussion in this thread revolves around a:

- a Terran Bonjwa
- a Zerg Bonjwa
and a Protoss Near-Bonjwa


so many bonjwa

the weirder part is that

the terran bonjwa dominating streak was ended by the zerg bonjwa that also his dominating streak was ended by the Protoss near-bonjwa

Hahahahaha. All we need now is FlaSh putting forward his thoughts.
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
jormal1ty
Profile Joined November 2011
Finland72 Posts
October 10 2013 11:57 GMT
#188
Looks like oov is actually pretty stupid, saying bisu is on same level with savior.
stream warrior
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1556 Posts
October 10 2013 11:58 GMT
#189
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 12:07 GMT
#190
On October 10 2013 12:55 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 12:13 Dr.Ultralisk wrote:
Sigh, Savior, when can he ever live a normal life.


When he builds a time machine and goes back in time and beats Bisu for his 4th MSL title.

firebathero might be a bonjwa if that happens
this is a quote
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 12:08 GMT
#191
On October 10 2013 20:55 thezanursic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:50 goody153 wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 thezanursic wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth

IMO savior should have a second chance to redeem himself, and if its by teaching new players his knowledge, who are we to criticize him?

Does anybody find it funny that the discussion in this thread revolves around a:

- a Terran Bonjwa
- a Zerg Bonjwa
and a Protoss Near-Bonjwa


so many bonjwa

the weirder part is that

the terran bonjwa dominating streak was ended by the zerg bonjwa that also his dominating streak was ended by the Protoss near-bonjwa

Hahahahaha. All we need now is FlaSh putting forward his thoughts.


dont forget the dong
this is a quote
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 12:09 GMT
#192
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.


dude wrote the book on defiler/nydus play

way more huge than some silly scandal imo
why so 진지해?
Pathos
Profile Joined April 2003
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:22:55
October 10 2013 12:16 GMT
#193
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.


No one cares what you or I think. People care what iloveoov thinks as unimportant as you think he is. In fact, his opinion is probably a lot more popular among netizens than it is here. These opinions contrary to what you think do affect the people involved.

It is far more a white-washing of history to ignore what he did than to exclude him from streaming. You 'guyz' are only interested in his play for historical reasons. Saviors removal from the current competitive scene doesn't take away from it in anyway.
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:16:59
October 10 2013 12:16 GMT
#194
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.


Most of the reason for this thread is because the op specifically stated that Oov was saying that he was against ALL BJs streaming on Afreeca, with that misunderstanding cleared up there is really very little drama.

The vast majority of the people here agree with Oov's sentiments about not streaming games with savior. Saying that doing it puts them on the same level as savior, is pretty much as everyone agrees upon, overdoing it to the point of stupidity.

For the most part, everyone's sentiments regarding savior are the same. We don't like him, we wish he was no longer associated with bw, but given how much we could actually reasonably expect, we just like for people not to tarnish their own reputations and bw's reputation by associating with him, what he chooses to do with his life is his business, it's not like we're forced to pay attention.

The haterz are not the only ones who care, it is people like you who still want to see him streamed that care. TL's stance that we shouldn't give him any more attention is consistent with the general consensus of people's attitude towards savior, as such don't feature restream of him, get over it.

For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Vegetarian Wolf
Profile Joined May 2010
China434 Posts
October 10 2013 12:22 GMT
#195
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing
Awooo...
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 12:24 GMT
#196
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote:
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing


If it has Rekrul posting in it, you know it's a quality thread.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 12:37 GMT
#197
On October 10 2013 21:24 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote:
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing


If it has Rekrul posting in it, you know it's a quality thread.

humor and hate is combined in this thread ..
this is a quote
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:38:27
October 10 2013 12:38 GMT
#198
I was a fan of Savior and i'm still am. But.. What he did was terrible.

I will avidly watch Bisu vs Savior but i can't say Oov isn't right. Paradox ? I know

On October 10 2013 21:37 goody153 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:24 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote:
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing


If it has Rekrul posting in it, you know it's a quality thread.

humor and hate is combined in this thread ..


And shame...
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 12:38 GMT
#199
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote:
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing

your ID is more amazing lol
this is a quote
myminerals
Profile Joined August 2013
560 Posts
October 10 2013 12:44 GMT
#200
leave the guy alone for god's sake! let us just enjoy BW
heaveshade
Profile Joined March 2011
China330 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:48:38
October 10 2013 12:48 GMT
#201
can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:56:19
October 10 2013 12:55 GMT
#202
On October 10 2013 21:48 heaveshade wrote:
can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.


Evidently there's quite a bit of irrational hatred for anything SC2 related, to where any player / coach / manager / grandma / pet gopher who even touches SC2 is immediately the biggest asshole on the universe and responsible for the downfall of BW, regardless of whether or not they contributed to the development of BW and even though every major BW figure who wasn't retired with the exception of Midas transitioned over to SC2. Also there's a whole bunch of Savior sympathizers. Make of that what you will.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
October 10 2013 12:56 GMT
#203
Wow what a weird thread. It's touched on so many subjects - bonjwa, Korean culture, racism, match fixing, gameplay contributions, etc etc.

I just have one thing to say: I don't hate Savior. But the fact that someone like Xellos exists, who sacrificed so much for his team, his coach, and gave it his all but never earned as much as Savior, was never as praised as Savior, and was never treated like a superstar, makes Savior anathema to anything good about Broodwar.
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
AssiRoyal
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Germany216 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 12:58:28
October 10 2013 12:57 GMT
#204
IMO iloveoov has a point...

the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.

so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve

my 2 cents
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 10 2013 13:01 GMT
#205
On October 10 2013 21:55 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:48 heaveshade wrote:
can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.


Evidently there's quite a bit of irrational hatred for anything SC2 related, to where any player / coach / manager / grandma / pet gopher


A pet gopher is associated to SC2? would love to see that.

some people aren't so forgiving like others, still that doesn't change the fact that savior still has a shitty persona for not having to apologize for what he did especially to the players he manipulated and ultimately got fired by it in a shameful manner.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 13:15:15
October 10 2013 13:02 GMT
#206
Wow, this thread really turned to shit over night lmao and after seeing the update. Gee, really? You want to blame all those retired players for streaming BW on freeca? Looks like I was right and oov truly is taking the KeSPA stance on the situation because they finally moved on to SC2. Get over yourself. At the end of the day people are going to watch what they want to watch and you cannot blame them for doing so. This doesn't really affect the global viewership. Not by a long shot. You weren't going to get those other people on afreeca to begin with, lol and now those players have the luxury of doing what they want because they aren't tied down anymore. They can stream at their own leisure now that the pro scene has subsided. If some people recall, I am someone who was very much opposed to streaming when it came to the pro's. I still am, but the BW scene today falls back into the hobbyist notion. As in you cannot make a living of it anymore, so these donations help in the short-term while these players prepare for mandatory military service and the rest of their lives. I have absolutely no problem with it. We get to watch FPV of a lot of greats whenever we want and it's great. You no longer need the mystique or aura when you look at the current state of the game. This is just for games like BW and SC2.

I can understand why certain individuals for games like LoL would do the things they do on stream. Like watching their subscribers play, playing games with their subscribers, doing giveaways for RP/skins. If there is one feature Justin.TV/Twitch does right it's their roll feature. It makes sense especially when you have around 20k or above people tuning in.
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 10 2013 13:21 GMT
#207
On October 10 2013 21:57 AssiRoyal wrote:
IMO iloveoov has a point...

the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.

so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve

my 2 cents


i was under the impression that he did issue some sort of apology but i guess not lol

i feel like theres something more endearing about not apologizing in this case

he's only sorry that he was careless and greedy getting too many ppl involved and to get caught, he does not feel guilty about the act lol

atleast he's not faking it with some b.s. apology
why so 진지해?
heaveshade
Profile Joined March 2011
China330 Posts
October 10 2013 13:27 GMT
#208
I believe someone has already clarified that oov is not against streaming bw in general. Probably several times.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 13:34:46
October 10 2013 13:29 GMT
#209
On October 10 2013 22:21 Rekrul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:57 AssiRoyal wrote:
IMO iloveoov has a point...

the thing is that savior didnt even try to excuse himself in the slightest. he never came forward and tried to apologize to the broodwar scene. thats why you should treat him as an outcast. obviously he contributed at least as much to the scene as he took away, but just leaving it by that and allowing him slowly to creep his way into a level of acceptance is not possible to tolerate without him apologizing and saying what went actually down during the match-fixing scandal from his point of view.

so iloveoov is right about asking bisu not to play savior and is actually right when condemning players like hiya, shuttle and whoever played him for giving savior the exposure that he does not deserve

my 2 cents


i was under the impression that he did issue some sort of apology but i guess not lol

i feel like theres something more endearing about not apologizing in this case

he's only sorry that he was careless and greedy getting too many ppl involved and to get caught, he does not feel guilty about the act lol

atleast he's not faking it with some b.s. apology



Pretty much. As for the other guy. My post was with regards to the clarification in the OP, where they said that oov wasn't fond of all the retired players streaming BW on afreeca. If it falls into white_horse's interpretation, which I was led to believe at first myself when reading it. Then my first point still stands. In either case, it's a very KeSPAian stance oov is taking and that's all we can truly say.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
October 10 2013 13:43 GMT
#210
On October 10 2013 21:22 Vegetarian Wolf wrote:
this thread manages to combine bw vs sc2, savior, and bonjwa discussion all in one this is amazing

Also korean culture. But what could you expect this is a useless drama/gossip topic with no value for real discussion, so the best thing to do is just add a little oil to the flames and watch some gossip girls taking it seriously :D

UUUiii person A said he won't like person B anymore if he plays with person C.
Seriously A+ highschool girl gossip :D
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5583 Posts
October 10 2013 13:50 GMT
#211
It's well known that KTY and MJY are friends. Being upset if they play on Afreeca just means you need more hobbies. It's been 3 years since match-fixing. We don't have a pro scene anymore. It doesn't matter who you watch or don't watch, who streams or who doesn't stream, you cannot undo the past or bring back that pro scene.

But here and now, given the choice between being able to watch two top BW players and not being able to watch them (keeping in mind you don't have to watch if you don't want to), the choice is obvious as to which one is better. How can people playing BW hurt BW? Why is such a boss like iloveoov even wasting his time commenting about teamless amateurs?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
October 10 2013 13:58 GMT
#212
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
October 10 2013 14:08 GMT
#213
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24580 Posts
October 10 2013 14:18 GMT
#214
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


Thus saving Brood War?

Inception!
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 14:28 GMT
#215
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
October 10 2013 14:30 GMT
#216
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?

Hot_bid...?

also, what Caihead said LOL, he had me pissed off more than a few times
In the woods, there lurks..
Cuce
Profile Joined March 2011
Turkey1127 Posts
October 10 2013 14:36 GMT
#217
I cant see a possible justification to play a stream match with one who shall not be named, yet alone a showmatch.

Oov reaction might be severe, but that doesnt mean bisu is not at fault
64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
October 10 2013 14:40 GMT
#218
On October 10 2013 23:28 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010


Oh... that is ringing a bell... i will have to check as i was not posting at the time (not register) but lurking the threads cursing SKT...
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 10 2013 14:41 GMT
#219
On October 10 2013 23:36 Cuce wrote:
I cant see a possible justification to play a stream match with one who shall not be named, yet alone a showmatch.

Oov reaction might be severe, but that doesnt mean bisu is not at fault


wow this is like making Bisu, harry potter and Savior, voldy and oov as snape and bisu's mother is BW where voldy kills BW ..
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
October 10 2013 14:44 GMT
#220
On October 10 2013 17:24 radadaundandan wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiveness is the key my friends.


Forgiveness doesn't mean you should take no precautions and do nothing to punish though. Some kind of punishment is necessary to prevent similar things from happening in the future. I think everybody should forgive savior but still he should not be allowed to make money off progaming anymore. He should try to do something else.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 14:52:28
October 10 2013 14:50 GMT
#221
Translator
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
October 10 2013 15:01 GMT
#222
On October 10 2013 23:28 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010

Those were the days
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50120 Posts
October 10 2013 15:02 GMT
#223
On October 11 2013 00:01 disciple wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 23:28 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010

Those were the days

never change pls.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
October 10 2013 15:09 GMT
#224
On October 10 2013 20:40 Boonbag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:38 Scarecrow wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:12 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:06 Subversive wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:22 Boonbag wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:18 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:36 Stratos wrote:
On October 10 2013 18:10 Talin wrote:
On October 10 2013 17:27 Stratos wrote:
Thanks to Savior's greed, the scene that's left today can only support so many players. I would like those who talk about forgiving Savior to think about that and realize that they're supporting the guy who helped destroy the careers of many young players who looked up to him as their senior and hero.


The effects of the scandal are blown way out of proportion in the big picture. There is literally zero indication that anything would be different today if match fixing had not happened. The players involved destroyed mostly their own careers and little else.

There is more than enough indication that it played some role in gathering sponsorship for the leagues that were to follow. Whether the indications are correct or the main cause was different is up for discussion, but you don't expect me to do the work for you and provide the sources if all you do is give random statements like that, right? I don't want to have that discussion anyway.

The simple truth is that Savior's actions caused some amount of damage to the entirety of the Brood War scene. I couldn't care less about exact numbers, but as it is, I find him still milking the remaining scene absurd and crude. That's all I have to say on this matter, I'll be leaving the discussion now as I hope it dies away sooner rather than later and Savior finally moves on.


All the heavyweight sponsors continued supporting BW for up to 2 years after the match fixing scandal. That alone invalidates your point.

If the Telecoms, Samsung and Shinhan Bank thought that there's nothing wrong with supporting the scene post-matchfixing and continued to actively associate their brands with Brood War as if nothing bad ever happened, matchfixing would obviously not be enough to deter any other company from entering the scene if they ever had any intent of doing so.

It's just convenient to dump everything on one guy's back and pretend the future would have been all milk and honey if only he hadn't done what he did. MBC would still be a gaming channel, Kespa would have never taken all the teams and players over to SC2, and nobody in Korea would give a shit about League of Legends today.


thats pretty much the fucking truth
when it comes to business, from my own personal experience, koreans always act like douches and hypocrits

what oov said is so so so korean ....

Do you have to bash Koreans every other sentence? Tone it down please.

i'm so sorry to despise korean culture and dismiss it as a whole, because there's nothing really to gloat about in it and hardly anything's worthwhile to keep (maybe the food ?)

lol you're such a bigot, there's good and bad in korean culture. Respect for elders and community, service, eating together and the respect for teachers and the law just to name a few. There's bad shit too but there are negatives with any culture.


hahaah what you just mentioned as the "good" traits is basically what i despise
now i understand where you ppl stand
deep right into the national propaganda that did so much wrong and made so many ppl suffer in korea
i know what i'm talking first hand and you obviously don't sir

User was banned for this post. Requested via PM.

you people?
you have something against brood war players?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 10 2013 15:13 GMT
#225
Of course Savior needed to be punished and he was, rightfully so, and he shouldn't ever be allowed into professional gaming again. But professional BW is gone now, and afreeca streaming isn't anything close to professional gaming.
neptunusfisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
2286 Posts
October 10 2013 15:15 GMT
#226
This thread should be renamed "iloveoov trashtalks Bisu's possible relation with sAviO"
maru G5L pls
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 15:44:02
October 10 2013 15:30 GMT
#227
On October 10 2013 22:01 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:55 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 21:48 heaveshade wrote:
can we say iloveoov was flamed quite a bit by mistake? I am still puzzled.


Evidently there's quite a bit of irrational hatred for anything SC2 related, to where any player / coach / manager / grandma / pet gopher


A pet gopher is associated to SC2? would love to see that.


In this economy, the best I can give you is a Byuppy.


(I think the puppy has since switched to LoL, though)
josephmcjoe
Profile Joined October 2009
United States57 Posts
October 10 2013 15:43 GMT
#228
Those are some harsh words.
With Boxer out of the scene,
things must be stressful.


Killer haiku.
"This guy is the Bob Ross of adept shading: a little shade here, a little shade there." -Lambo
Whitley
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States238 Posts
October 10 2013 15:52 GMT
#229
I'd watch it! I bet it'd be a fun ass set of games.. and after all isn't that what we all want from any VIDEO GAME that we watch? GOOD GAMES?

Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 15:56:07
October 10 2013 15:53 GMT
#230
On October 11 2013 00:01 disciple wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 23:28 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010

Those were the days


Lets just turn this into a Mod/Admin circle jerk and/or random shit thread, would be alot better than the current quality of discourse.

I will start



It has Bisu in it, it counts.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 16:15:48
October 10 2013 16:13 GMT
#231
Pretty trashy PR move by oov. You can't shit on bisu publicly for something he didn't even do yet. As I recall he was asked and then refused. If oov cares that much he can message bisu privately, or at least not call him out in a media interview where he's not around to defend himself. It's really throwing him under the bus, and that's bullshit.

Not really sure what he was thinking here. As for condemning all of the ex pros who went to play BW, however that was translated as either an insinuation or a fairly direct opinion, that's greedy and he has no right to complain that lots of people still enjoy BW and it's a viable thing to stream on afreeca.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1556 Posts
October 10 2013 16:37 GMT
#232
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


Bisu is just starting to make sense out of this world Like sAviOr did 3 years ago... oops...

No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
nurle
Profile Joined August 2009
Norway308 Posts
October 10 2013 16:50 GMT
#233
On October 11 2013 01:13 Chef wrote:
Pretty trashy PR move by oov. You can't shit on bisu publicly for something he didn't even do yet. As I recall he was asked and then refused. If oov cares that much he can message bisu privately, or at least not call him out in a media interview where he's not around to defend himself. It's really throwing him under the bus, and that's bullshit.

Not really sure what he was thinking here. As for condemning all of the ex pros who went to play BW, however that was translated as either an insinuation or a fairly direct opinion, that's greedy and he has no right to complain that lots of people still enjoy BW and it's a viable thing to stream on afreeca.


Good read.
Giving people a hard time for something they have yet to do is just pathetic.
oov lost all my respect with this interview..
just sad..
Jaedong fucking beast
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1556 Posts
October 10 2013 16:54 GMT
#234
On October 10 2013 21:16 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.

For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.


Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3361 Posts
October 10 2013 17:03 GMT
#235
On October 11 2013 01:54 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 21:16 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.

For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.


Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...



This!

I have always been a CJ fan but I first and foremost love to see good games. sAviOr did what he did and got punished accordingly. But he was a gifted player regardless and produced some of the best games I ever seen. My point is I would love to see sAviOr playing now (in a non professional setup obviously) and I would watch his stream if he had any!
Horang2 fan
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
October 10 2013 17:08 GMT
#236
On October 10 2013 19:11 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:04 zeo wrote:
Wow oov, must be really hard on everyone that a dead game with no pro scene forced to go underground has more viewers that your 'esport'. So sad that its 'hurting esports' if you are just better than sc2....

These players are fucking retired, if someone was banned from baseball for doping the guy can still play in his backyard, or teach kids how to play. Get over it.


Say someone was banned from baseball for doping, not only so but he was the organizer for distributing a culture of doping in not only his team but with in many other rising stars in other major teams, say someone was caught for doping but refuses to even acknowledge or apologize for the fact that he was doping, say someone gets banned professionally but still makes money from the exact sport he was banned from, say someone who was banned professionally is trying to play with former clean retirees for personal fame and money, etc etc etc etc.

Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:08 Operations wrote:
sc2 supporters aren't much better than match fixers. iloveoov should shut his mouth


iloveoov probably fought longer and harder for BW than you have graced the internet with your posts.


And it doesn't justify his recent string of inflammatory comments. The doping baseball player has every damn right to make money how he sees fit if people are willing to give it to him. Literally no one is hurt by him doing it. Bisu isn't going to contract the plague playing with Savior and then spread it to the viewers. If it's such an abomination to see them play, don't watch. Sadly, Oov is probably upset by the fact that people will watch anyways because it's such a benign issue to throw a tantrum over.
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9858 Posts
October 10 2013 17:08 GMT
#237
I dislike Oov now.

Just because Savior committed wrongdoings doesn't mean we should all hate him forever. Especially not people who have a positive relationship with him.

In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
October 10 2013 17:16 GMT
#238
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13

ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
October 10 2013 17:23 GMT
#239
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


When shall bisu hand down his ten commandments?
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 10 2013 17:23 GMT
#240
#BSports4ever.
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6175 Posts
October 10 2013 17:40 GMT
#241
On October 10 2013 07:35 larse wrote:
iloveoov: I heard that Bisu is going to play with sAviOr in his stream, if it is true, then they are the same kind of person now. After the match fixing scandal, three b-teamers in our team went to me, cried, and asked me if it's still possible to play the game anymore.

Bisu was a progamer too, and had more successful career than those B-teamers. He had more to lose.
If Bisu is able to forgive, then others should be ablo too!
panzercrusher
Profile Joined April 2013
Poland457 Posts
October 10 2013 17:49 GMT
#242
Wierd times. BW in poor state, iloveoov hated, sAviOr "did bad things but he`s cool now"...
I never asked for this
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia457 Posts
October 10 2013 17:49 GMT
#243
On October 10 2013 18:35 Caihead wrote:
You do realize that he was one of the only people in the world who can even say that he actually personally contributed to providing a reasonable environment for playing BW and getting money right? Like a decade ago? Alongside people like Boxer?

That's right, and it makes him even more responsible for such statements.
Keeping BW at Afreeca until better times is better than not to do it. And criticizing this fact looks like some kind of betrayal (of teammate and retired players, forsaking them at tough times).
Don't take me offensively and let's hope iloveoov didn't mean "the entire BW streaming"
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
rift
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
1819 Posts
October 10 2013 18:04 GMT
#244
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


Ugh, give it a rest already.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
October 10 2013 18:14 GMT
#245
On October 11 2013 03:04 rift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


Ugh, give it a rest already.

You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
October 10 2013 18:24 GMT
#246
On October 11 2013 03:14 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 03:04 rift wrote:
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


Ugh, give it a rest already.

You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest


I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
October 10 2013 18:26 GMT
#247
My interpretation (as a former active translator... which makes me a semi-inactive translator now?) is that oov didn't bash the entire personal BW streaming scene. What white_horse said in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431676&currentpage=4#67 is correct and best aligned with the context of the entire response to that particular question.
[TLMS] REBOOT
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
October 10 2013 18:33 GMT
#248
On October 11 2013 03:24 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 03:14 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 11 2013 03:04 rift wrote:
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


Ugh, give it a rest already.

You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest


I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.

I don't know why you have it out for me lately but feel free to pm me so we can work this out instead of being passive aggressive. I am very happy Bisu is playing BW again. I'm having fun in the forums. If this has offended people then I will stop. I hope you understand I'm being over the top to have fun but I guess that can be hard to see. Ill try harder to be less visible.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Kittan
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland3999 Posts
October 10 2013 18:38 GMT
#249
Oov, always the unquestioned master of the interview :D

I don't see anything wrong with reminding poople not to play for money with sAviOr, though it's not like the Afreeca scene needs to listen to people still involved with SC2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=81288 <--- How I fell in love with a man, a team, a game and a website in a single day... | "There are no false gods, there is only the Emperor, and Choi Yun Sung is his prophet." -> Zona 40k
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 18:41 GMT
#250
On October 11 2013 00:53 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 00:01 disciple wrote:
On October 10 2013 23:28 Caihead wrote:
On October 10 2013 23:08 FFW_Rude wrote:
On October 10 2013 22:58 disciple wrote:
Would be cool if savior manipulated Bisu into sc2 retirement telling him he can make more money streaming bw


I think i never saw an admin trolling. Do i get a TL achievement ?


dude it's disciple, go open any old KT vs SKT thread from like 2008-2010

Those were the days


Lets just turn this into a Mod/Admin circle jerk and/or random shit thread, would be alot better than the current quality of discourse.

I will start

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKqqXBeErT4

It has Bisu in it, it counts.


well the vod was fun .. and from what i understand all the time kim carry is saying "carriers are broken" at least the thought process of it IMO
this is a quote
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
October 10 2013 18:48 GMT
#251
On October 11 2013 02:03 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 01:54 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 21:16 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:58 iFU.pauline wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:47 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:43 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:30 Pathos wrote:
On October 10 2013 20:20 Letmelose wrote:
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


It was July.

Also, I'd take what iloveoov has to say with a grain of salt. He was far from exemplary himself, and always had these kind of tendencies to talk brashly without giving things too much thought. That being said, it's stupid to counter-balance that by pretending that what's past is past, and we should embrace sAviOr with open arms now. It doesn't matter if dickheads like Justin were more heavily involved in these match-fixing business, sAviOr was meant to be the chosen one, the guy everybody expected to be the next e-Sports superstar after in a manner similar to BoxeR, but instead he threw it all away, and the level of betrayal was beyond repair. I really don't know why being blase about it somehow makes people feel better, when almost every single one of us here would have much rather prefered to see the Starcraft scene flourish like in the past, rather than watch it degrade to a casual level, with a washed-up, unapologetic sell-out like sAviOr being the centre of attention. It may be overboard to witch-hunt sAviOr every single moment available, but the guy just asks to be hounded upon with his attitude, and I have nearly zero sympathy with someone who savours being the "controversial" figurehead of the community and profits off that, and brings down the level of people surrounding him. He is a cancerous being, and what started off as a simple mistake for an inexperienced kid, has evolved into something far more toxic. There's nothing about the guy right now that reminds me of the genius who gave the scene a breath of fresh air, and looked like the one who would take the scene to the next level.


As a person, I am extremely sympathetic to Savior for the reasons you gave. He probably had no interest in leading the e-sports scene. In fact, we can all agree that he received all of the negative implication from this unfairly and that many guiltier and more responsible parties were never brought to justice. For these reasons, I consider his particular situation the greatest individual tragedy.

However, my personal interest is that the afreeca streams cause a revival of interest in BW. This CANNOT happen if Savior is involved plain and simple.


He was interested in getting more pussy, getting expensive brands, and gave zero fucks about the people who looked up to him, the coach who ensured he would get the best treatment available, and the media who hyped him up as the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was extremely fortunate to get the treatment he got, and he just took everything he got for granted, and spit on the faces of the people who raised him up on a pedestal, so much so, that people today even remember more fondly on the days when he was actually good, more so than any other gamer in my recollection.

There are guys who literally gave it their all, people who stuck with their team, sharing their prize money to keep the dream alive, and what kind of credit do you think they're getting? Nothing at all. What sAviOr contributed to the scene is incredibly negligable, and the damage he caused as literally the biggest name in e-Sports behind BoxeR, and perhaps YellOw, way outscales anything he has done.

You're talking about a guy who took everything he had for granted, and used it to get more money for himself, and coerced others just for his benefit alone. And he continues to profit off his self-centred behaviour due to people who simply like these kind of stupid as fuck dramas, over the real heroes who don't bother stooping to sAviOr's level, even if it would give them the extra dough. Fuck sAviOr. People should cry over real tragedies, not this prick who wouldn't care one iota for sympathetic people such as yourself if it didn't make him a single dime richer.

I don't even feel that strongly about shutting sAviOr down, but this kind of revision of what sAviOr has done, and why he is underappreciated makes me sick to the stomach. He was a scumbag, and still is one today, and all he cares about is himself. If you want to be a bitch, and soak in all that drama, and love him for the "tragic, dark hero" like a chick, then go ahead, but please keep that to yourself, and don't post that kind of crap here.


Yes, I agree. I am merely saying that I personally am not striking out at him out of moral wrath. But for all the reasons you just mentioned, he should disappear completely from e-sports.

I personally am annoyed because I think a lot of the sympathy is the fact that foreigners idolize him as the Zerg messiah. Like literally view him as a fallen angel hero rebelling against all the Terran domination of the competitive scene.


Afreeca stream is not e-sport, being a progamer is e-sport, if you don't like the idea of Bisu streaming his game vs sAviOr then it means you don't want sAviOr (i like to type his name properly, does it bother you? i hope it does) to be on Afreeca and that goes farther than just talking about e-sport. Haterz like you are the reason why sAviOr is so popular now, giving too much attention to a matter that is no more, transparency is the best at this point, it's not relevant to talk about this drama, the more you give importance the more you end up with thread like this. LIKE WE FUCKIN CARE SERIOUSLY ABOUT OOV OPINION ON WHY BISU WOULD PLAY SAVIOR? You haterz are the only one that care in fact.

For the most part people are happy with the status quo, savior does what he wants, everyone ignores him. We would like for it to stay that way, as such we prefer if other players also ignored him. There really isn't much drama at all from the 'haterz', since we pretty much have what we want.


Actually, it is not really "most" but almost "half" of people, and since you hold such statement you should make more friends among bw community REMAINING players... Just so you know how many people really care about keeping sAviOr stream under ban... You will be surprised how many would prefer to have his stream showing on TL. Also what you guys prefer for us we are not supposed to care either, I prefer to watch his stream than any other zerg gotcha? :/ and in no way you should be satisfied that I can't, coze im crippled because of ppl like you that can't make a difference between a game and a person. Which I can, in case you want me to teach you how to do, it will help you...



This!

I have always been a CJ fan but I first and foremost love to see good games. sAviOr did what he did and got punished accordingly. But he was a gifted player regardless and produced some of the best games I ever seen. My point is I would love to see sAviOr playing now (in a non professional setup obviously) and I would watch his stream if he had any!


wow this is heated ..
this is a quote
Carefree
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1571 Posts
October 10 2013 18:52 GMT
#252
On October 11 2013 03:24 Caihead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 03:14 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 11 2013 03:04 rift wrote:
On October 11 2013 02:16 BisuDagger wrote:
It's time that the Church of BSports speaks out on this subject:


No temptation has seized you except what is common to probes.
And Bisu is faithful;
Bisu will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.
But when you are tempted,
Bisu will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

~Book of BSports 1 BD 10:13


Ugh, give it a rest already.

You actually get it! This whole thread should give it a rest already. Why am I not making arguments, because this debate is pointless. We heard oovs opinion. We don't have to react upon it. Just accept how he feels and shape your own feelings based on his input. But trying to convince people to take different sides of the argument is pointless. The human brain should rely on the ability to make decisions based on facts. And unless facts have been left out of this discussion then we have exhuasted the arguments and need to give it a rest


I'm pretty sure he means the obnoxious fanboying, not what ever pseudo intellectual points you wanted to make.


Maybe you're the one that should give it a rest.
DebOnAire - 「 Bisu[Shield] 」
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
October 10 2013 19:25 GMT
#253
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
AssiRoyal
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Germany216 Posts
October 10 2013 19:31 GMT
#254
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.


is there a thread or sth on this "apology" youre talking about?
i really would like to read that
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
October 10 2013 19:33 GMT
#255
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=139557
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5583 Posts
October 10 2013 19:38 GMT
#256
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.

Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
AssiRoyal
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Germany216 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 19:45:36
October 10 2013 19:44 GMT
#257
On October 11 2013 04:33 Gamegene wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=139557


thanks, well that is really half-assed...

so my point stands... iloveoov is right about asking bisu and others not to play this scumbag
if i recall correctly, he was convicted of paying the players out their winnings for throwing matches so thats bullshit with his "i only told my friends and had a bad influence but thats it"

On October 11 2013 04:38 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.

Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?


wasnt savior convicted of more than just telling other players about the offers in this scandal? because thats just what he apologized for
Jaded.
Profile Joined June 2013
United States125 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 19:53:54
October 10 2013 19:50 GMT
#258
On October 10 2013 08:22 juki wrote:

Bisu plays friendly match with Savior -> Bisu + Savior BFFs -> Savior bad for e-sports -> Bisu bad for e-sports

Retired pros play on Afreeca -> Savior plays on Afreeca -> Savior bad for e-sports -> All retired players on Afreeca bad for e-sports


I doubt he really means this, I don't think even if I stopped taking my meds I could come up with such impressively delusional logic. I'm guessing since Kespa is somewhat responsible for his salary the interview should be taken with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong Saviors a scumbag but to lump all of Afreeca in with him is stupid. Or maybe OOV is just so old now he doesn't understand how it works.

On October 11 2013 04:44 AssiRoyal wrote:

wasnt savior convicted of more than just telling other players about the offers in this scandal? because thats just what he apologized for


allegedly he was also skimming off (taking some) of the money he was supposed to give to the players. No honor among thieves. It would also imply that he was the middleman in all of this.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. What I'm saying is that there are known knowns and there are known unknowns but there's also unknown unknowns, things that we don't know that we don't know
Fuchsteufelswild
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2028 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 19:52:29
October 10 2013 19:51 GMT
#259
On October 11 2013 04:38 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.

Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?


^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.

People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.
ZerO - FantaSy - Calm - Nal_rA - Jaedong - NaDa - EffOrt - Bisu - by.hero - StarDust - Welmu - Nerchio - Supernova - Solar - Squirtle - LosirA - Grubby - IntoTheRainbow - Golden... ~~~ Incredible Miracle and Woongjin Stars 화이팅!
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
October 10 2013 19:58 GMT
#260
oov is not shitting on Bisu (nor the BW-streaming folks on Afreeca) people -_-;;

He's saying with a big IF. IF Bisu plays with Savior on public stream it'll put Bisu at the same level [of maturity / consciousness] as Savior, etc. oov answered the question based on what he heard/read, the article doesn't indicate an exact source of his information. Then oov also says he got mad [at himself] for even imagining such a thing, then finishes the response with "I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen."

Is there even proof that Bisu has already, is scheduled to, or was planning to play with Savior?
[TLMS] REBOOT
Zera
Profile Joined April 2010
Lithuania716 Posts
October 10 2013 20:03 GMT
#261
Oov just gained ~1 billion anti-fans :D

As someone said in previous pages, instead of saying "Bisu was such a great person and player and contributed to e-sports so~~~~ much and etc." he said what he said
JD fanboy. #FPPS
sh4w
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States713 Posts
October 10 2013 20:08 GMT
#262
What a thread this has been. Started with a mistranslation, and now has just devolved into personal attacks and people arguing about savior.
On October 11 2013 04:58 OpticalShot wrote:
oov is not shitting on Bisu (nor the BW-streaming folks on Afreeca) people -_-;;

He's saying with a big IF. IF Bisu plays with Savior on public stream it'll put Bisu at the same level [of maturity / consciousness] as Savior, etc. oov answered the question based on what he heard/read, the article doesn't indicate an exact source of his information. Then oov also says he got mad [at himself] for even imagining such a thing, then finishes the response with "I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen."

Is there even proof that Bisu has already, is scheduled to, or was planning to play with Savior?

Pretty much this. Basically said fuck savior, and that he doesn't think Bisu should play with him ever. And I pretty much agree with both of those things. I honestly think anyone who wasn't a progamer when the whole match fixing thing happened has any right to say whether or not savior is cool or not or whatever. It's a touchy subject. If BW was your entire life at one time, and someone completely jeopardized and shit on it, you'd probably feel differently. And considering he wasn't being as harsh as the OP led on, I'm not even sure why this discussion is still going on.
I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
October 10 2013 20:19 GMT
#263
Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.

There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 10 2013 20:22 GMT
#264
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote:
Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.

There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.


Well savior defenders here are still going to support savior.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 20:30:15
October 10 2013 20:22 GMT
#265
On October 11 2013 04:51 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 04:38 oBlade wrote:
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.

Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?


^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.

People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.

No, thats not it. Someone told oov that there is a rumor going around that Bisu will play a showmatch against savior. Somehow out of that unfounded rumor, oov feels the need to call out an entire community apparently just because savior happens to be playing the same game as them... justified opinion? More like causing a shitstorm for no reason.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
DinoToss
Profile Joined August 2013
Poland507 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 20:39:55
October 10 2013 20:38 GMT
#266
So few unjustified words from Oov can kill this man's legacy in someone's eyes wow. I didn't know Oov meant so little...

At least he's not Savior amirite.
My wrist really started to flare up. My colossi number started to pile up and with the last of my concentration I prepared for a win.
EpiK
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5757 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 20:50:17
October 10 2013 20:44 GMT
#267
While harsh, it's perfectly understandable why oov would feel this way. Savior is scum after all.. regardless of how he used to play or how much time has passed. Also, considering oov was a former playing coach for bisu, he probably understands bisu's thoughts on the issues better than any of us.
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
October 10 2013 21:16 GMT
#268
This mistranslation causing people to hate oov...its already been said that the suggestion came from fans and bisu rejected it, oov probably hearing it down from people to people is just enforcing the idea of why bisu shouldnt play with savior. along with other streamers, and i definitely do not think oov would ever say that afreeca streaming of bw shouldnt be done (and its already in the updated OP)
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 10 2013 21:25 GMT
#269
sAviOr should go me and you, 1 vs 1, right now!

And is Oov loses, he should shut up for the rest of his life.

If sAviOr does, then he is banished from Afreeca.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 21:41:50
October 10 2013 21:41 GMT
#270
Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:

"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."

If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?

It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.

But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.

Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 21:43:38
October 10 2013 21:41 GMT
#271
On October 11 2013 05:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 04:51 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
On October 11 2013 04:38 oBlade wrote:
On October 11 2013 04:25 Gamegene wrote:
either people are ignorant or they actually think players and fans should be lenient towards savior.

dude is an absolute piece of garbage. he organized the entire scheme, ripped off his fellow player collaborators, made a fucking half assed apology and then started streaming bw for profit immediately one month later. he uses his fans for luxury products and is an egotistical little shit.

he's had years to give an actual apology and present actions that reflect remorse. he's beyond forgiveness.

Okay, you don't like MJY and you don't like one statement he made 3 years ago (although you apparently believe that a full-assed apology would be better, even if you have no way of knowing how sincere it is because you're probably not a telepath), that's a fair opinion to have, but what does it have to do with iloveoov shitting on Bisu as soon as he retires?


^The fact that people want to defend sAviOr and verbally shit on iloveoov just because iloveoov has a justified opinion they disagree with, as well as the fact that Bisu, still a hero to many, may be going to play games with (and effective indirectly endorse others doing so) said person who manipulated, pressured and stained the Brood War scene.

People are basically expected to continue shunning sAviOr for what he did, so Bisu playing with him is like forgiving sAviOr and endorsing other people forgiving sAviOr. iloveoov happens to be one of many people strongly opposed to this.

No, thats not it. Someone told oov that there is a rumor going around that Bisu will play a showmatch against savior. Somehow out of that unfounded rumor, oov feels the need to call out an entire community apparently just because savior happens to be playing the same game as them... justified opinion? More like causing a shitstorm for no reason.


I believe it's a mistranslation from the OP. In his defense, the original text is worded slightly vaguely and can be misinterpreted. I have read the original text carefully and I do NOT believe that oov is burning the entire BW community on afreeca. People here are just skimming through the posts and calling for oov's head. I think it's about time we straighten this out.
Translator
juki
Profile Joined April 2012
68 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 22:06:32
October 10 2013 22:01 GMT
#272
On October 10 2013 11:56 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.


His text is worded slightly vaguely, which is why I can understand misinterpretation of the text. But I read very carefully, and I don't think that he means that he is against ex-players playing on afreeca in general, only that he is against players playing with savior.

You can tell that savior really did play a part in BW's undoing, looking at the way people are still angry at him. iloveoov sounds pretty pissed in the interview when he's talking about the subject. But people on TL are still savior fans and saying idiotic things like "he was young and didn't no any better, we should forgive him"? Speaks volumes about the maturity level of some people here.


Going back and reading again, I think this interpretation is more correct. Seeing as how this topic has kind of exploded, I think it's worth trying to go though this more carefully. I'll try to outline my thought process here here line-by-line and point out where the potential ambiguities are for me (other translators please chime in if you think something is incorrect):

(Bolding added by me for emphasis)
(Stuff in parentheses is my notes and not part of the interview text)

최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요?
Interviewer: What thoughts do you have on Kim Taek-Yong's recent retirement?

일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요.
To start, it is regretful. He didn't leave on a high note so it is even more regretful.

최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠.
Recently I heard he is playing with Ma Jae-Yoon on Afreeca; if it is true that they are playing together, then he is the same as Ma Jae-Yoon.
(Doesn't seem to be mad at Kim Taek-Yong unless this indeed happened)

그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요.
When the match-fixing scandal happened, three of the practice partners on the team came to me crying, asking if they would be able to continue playing at all.

그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠.
Going through that, I hear that he/they (unclear if he is referring to only Kim Taek-Yong given the next sentence) are being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Then they are all the same as him (clearly refers to multiple people here, but again unclear who exactly).

후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요.
It is the same case with the players from other teams.
(was this who he was referring to on the previous lines? From the text itself I wouldn't say so, but I don't know who else it could be)

은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)

택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요.
I am angry at the idea that Kim Taek-Yong would even consider the possibility of playing a game with Ma Jae-Yoon.
(Again, doesn't seem like he condemns Kim Taek-Yong unless he actually did have such relations with Ma Jae-Yoon).

진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요.
I hope that sort of thing didn't happen/doesn't happen.
(This is clearly referring only to the possible game with Savior, and not Afreeca streaming)

So, all in all, I don't think that iloveoov was denouncing Afreeca or Brood War streaming as a whole, but just any notion that any of the retired players would have friendly relations with Savior. Whether or not the hate for Savior is justified is a separate issue which people always seem eager to discuss.

Sorry for any confusion that this might have caused or will continue causing...
PM me if you want a BW-related item translated (stuff on former players is okay as well)
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 22:13:42
October 10 2013 22:02 GMT
#273
On October 11 2013 06:41 Crisium wrote:
Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:

"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."

If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?

It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.

But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.

Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.

Okay really now, now it's about tone/phrasing?

Honestly here let me use the same Korean source quoted in the OP and translate quickly. Going to use a ton of explanatory text to fill the gaps, and format it a bit for easier reading:

+ Show Spoiler [source] +
Q. 그렇죠.(웃음) 그럼 이제 다른 이야기로 넘어가 보면, 최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요?

최연성 : 일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요. 최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠. 그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요. 그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. 택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요. 진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요.

+ Show Spoiler [translation, unformatted] +
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?

oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well. I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior. [Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.


Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?

oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well.

I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior.

[Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.

*edit: going to also add that people should not jump to conclusions based on a loose two-step translation (assuming OP translated from the CN article, which was probably translated from the original KR article).

Hell, even for direct KR -> EN, I've read some translators take 테란원탑 as "Terran One-Tower" I mean seriously? Where did the fucking tower come from? Is that what Google Translate gives you? 원탑, or one-top, refers to the single (one) player who is at the top (lmao ok he can sit on the top of the tower if he wants) of the subject (here the subject being the performance as a player using the Terran race).
[TLMS] REBOOT
Dontkillme
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)806 Posts
October 10 2013 22:14 GMT
#274
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??
Bomber & Jaedong & FlaSh & SNSD <3
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
October 10 2013 22:38 GMT
#275
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1598 Posts
October 10 2013 22:53 GMT
#276
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??


He chose to undermine the SCBW pro gaming scene for a FEW bucks. Not really just a few, but less than he would have made if he continued to be a pro gamer. He was also a style of zerg that was amazing to watch even more so than JD in some cases. That is why to any BW fan he will always be hated he was a hope for even more amazing gameplay and ruined the integrity of the game.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 23:00:19
October 10 2013 22:56 GMT
#277
oov as someone who is involved in the scene, knows people impacted by the scandal, is understandable that anyone who was a progamer to associate with savior is a bad thing (we observers have a different perspective, especially foreigners. try to see it from a perspective of someone that was impacted very negatively because of savior, or know/close to someone that was impacted by savior).

as for streaming, i understand where oov is coming from. bw pros were like a figure, replays were collected like mint mtg cards and now their mystical figure is shown to the world with streaming, so it loses this mystical property. however the fans want to see it and the ex-progamers need to make money so its a win win for both. in this i think oov can be convinced or not yet convinced before this interview
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-10 22:57:48
October 10 2013 22:57 GMT
#278
double post
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
October 10 2013 23:09 GMT
#279
holy shit... people should read more carefully threads like this one.

before posting, especially on subjects highly suspicious (iloveoov being a bad guy?? 99% chance there is something wrong), read more posts...
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 00:25:51
October 11 2013 00:00 GMT
#280
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote:
Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.

There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.


rofl I love this. Its like I finally understand what people find interesting about celebrities...

On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 00:26:06
October 11 2013 00:05 GMT
#281
double
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 11 2013 00:08 GMT
#282
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 00:19:39
October 11 2013 00:17 GMT
#283
On October 11 2013 07:38 Ciryandor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.


And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.

On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?


only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 00:23:14
October 11 2013 00:19 GMT
#284
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.

On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:

only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf


The BW community in korea disagrees with you completely. oov basically blasts savior in the interview. People hate him, and rightfully so.
Translator
419
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Russian Federation3631 Posts
October 11 2013 00:22 GMT
#285
On October 11 2013 05:19 Hesmyrr wrote:
Looks like there is shitstorm occurring on darker parts of Afreeca.

There was Terror(?) vs Savior bo7 match where the loser promised to shave their eyebrows. Terror won 4:0 but Savior apparently refuses to carry out the punishment, the situation which is more complicated by the fact that Savior had a match with exact same punishment yesterday vs 봉준 where Savior won and the loser did exactly as he promised.

Savior still killing ESPORTS
?
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
October 11 2013 00:28 GMT
#286
On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?

Blizzard killed the game.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
October 11 2013 00:29 GMT
#287
On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.


heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 11 2013 00:33 GMT
#288
On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:38 Ciryandor wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.


And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.

Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?


only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf


not quite ..

He killed off other people's career by being the middleman.
Caused a scandal on a country that has a highly conservative society, thus giving/adding a poor impression for future potential sponsors.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
October 11 2013 00:47 GMT
#289
On October 11 2013 07:02 OpticalShot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 06:41 Crisium wrote:
Obviously things are lost in translation. But it's the phrasing that bugs me:

"It looks like Bisu is having a good relationship with sAviOr? Then they are in the same level now."

If it were "If Bisu plays with Savior, then they are on the same level", then I could sort of understand oov. But as it stands, just the fact that they have a good relationship means Bisu is on the same level as the lead matchfixer who goaded other players into ending their careers and helped lead to the end of pro-Starcraft?

It must be some cultural honor by association that I don't understand.

But, also importantly, is oov making sweeping judgements based on nothing more than hearsay. What evidence is there that Bisu and Savior still have a good relationship? The fact that Bisu dared watch his now ancient games against Savior? That's it? There was only fans asking for the two to play, nothing more.

Oov is famous for brash interviews, but he really needs to not comment on rumours. He openly insulted Bisu and had no factual basis to do so. A coach shouldn't be doing this.

Okay really now, now it's about tone/phrasing?

Honestly here let me use the same Korean source quoted in the OP and translate quickly. Going to use a ton of explanatory text to fill the gaps, and format it a bit for easier reading:

+ Show Spoiler [source] +
Q. 그렇죠.(웃음) 그럼 이제 다른 이야기로 넘어가 보면, 최근 김택용 선수의 은퇴를 보면서 어떤 생각이 들었나요?

최연성 : 일단 아쉬웠죠. 좋을 때 떠나는 게 아니라 더 아쉬워요. 최근 인터넷 개인방송에서 마재윤과 게임을 한다는 말도 있던데, 만약 정말로 게임을 한다면 마재윤과 똑같은 거죠. 그 사건이 터졌을 때, 당시 팀의 연습생 3명이 저한테 와서 울면서 앞으로 게임 계속 할 수 있냐고 하더라고요. 그 모습을 봤는데, 마재윤과 어울린다? 그러면 모두 다 마재윤과 동급 인거죠. 후배였던 다른 팀 선수들도 마찬가지예요. 은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠. 택용이가 '마재윤과 게임을 할까?' 라고 생각했던 자체가 화나 나요. 진심으로 그런일이 없었으면 좋겠네요.

+ Show Spoiler [translation, unformatted] +
Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?

oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well. I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior. [Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.


Q: Yes (laughs). Now let's move on to other topics, what thoughts crossed your mind when Bisu retired?

oov: First would be of regret. [The regret/disappointment] is augmented by the fact that he left when [he wasn't / the scene wasn't] doing so well.

I've heard recently that Bisu [plays / will play] with Savior in his personal stream, and if that's true, that would put him at the same level [of maturity/consciousness] as Savior. When [the matchfixing and consequences] happened, three of our team's B-teamers came crying to me, asking me whether it'll be possible to continue playing games [in the team / as a career]. For those that witnessed such things to associate themselves with Savior again? That would put them at the same level as Savior.

[Same/similar opinion] goes for players from other teams. My understanding is that many of the retired [BW-] progamers broadcast online in personal streams. [If those retired progamers] truly care for the eSports scene [and those that followed their lead into the same career], they wouldn't [play/associate with Savior]. I'm mad [at myself] for even asking myself whether Bisu would play with Savior. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen.

*edit: going to also add that people should not jump to conclusions based on a loose two-step translation (assuming OP translated from the CN article, which was probably translated from the original KR article).

Hell, even for direct KR -> EN, I've read some translators take 테란원탑 as "Terran One-Tower" I mean seriously? Where did the fucking tower come from? Is that what Google Translate gives you? 원탑, or one-top, refers to the single (one) player who is at the top (lmao ok he can sit on the top of the tower if he wants) of the subject (here the subject being the performance as a player using the Terran race).


The last line about him being mad at himself changes things a little but it doesn't make up for this. I can forgive oov for having said these things, of course, but they were still wrong to say. You don't go to your partner / spouse and say "if you're cheating on me, it would be a terrible thing and you would be scum." The 'if' part doesn't make it any less of an accusation lol. I use this example because it's funny that in the same way people hate themselves for not trusting their spouses, oov hates himself for not trusting bisu.

But honestly, you can't point to the "if" and go "SEEEE!!! HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY ACCUSE HIM!" He totally did and it was inappropriate and unnecessary for the interview. As someone else said, he could have talked about the respect he had for Bisu as a player and his glory days. If he wants to caution people against reintegrating savior (and that's a totally different conversation I don't want to get into), he can do it without dragging someone's name thru the dirt.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3046 Posts
October 11 2013 00:58 GMT
#290
On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.

Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:

only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf


The BW community in korea disagrees with you completely. oov basically blasts savior in the interview. People hate him, and rightfully so.

Not just the community.
ppp
Ciryandor
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3735 Posts
October 11 2013 01:18 GMT
#291
On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:38 Ciryandor wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.


And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.

Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?


only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf

Personally I don't care, because I express my opinion by actually subscribing to it. I'm just telling you what people would use as a justification.

Also at italics, so what do you cal Justin, Hwasin and all the other guys? Some people don't really think their arguments through...
에일리 and 아이유 <3 - O Captain 박재혁 ・゚✧*:・*゚+..。✧・゚:*・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚* ゜・*:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING ・゜・:・゚✧*:・゚✧。*゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:*・゜・:・゚✧*::
Chrispy
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada5878 Posts
October 11 2013 01:25 GMT
#292
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.
Retvrn to Forvms
AssiRoyal
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Germany216 Posts
October 11 2013 01:34 GMT
#293
i dont think it has been asked yet, so:

is the rest of this interview available as well?
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
October 11 2013 01:50 GMT
#294
On October 11 2013 09:29 Aunvilgod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.


heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.

I don't think brood war is what's holding SC2 back
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 01:52:43
October 11 2013 01:50 GMT
#295
On October 11 2013 10:18 Ciryandor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:17 rd wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:38 Ciryandor wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

Because he's an unrepentant asshole who still wants to leech money off the scene he had a big part in tainting the image of.


And if people enjoy watching him play and want to give money to him, why the fuck should you care? Is he forcing the scene to watch him? Savior streaming on Afreeca and playing show matches literally does nothing to the scene, other than enrage the conservative puritans. It's utterly inconsequential.

On October 11 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:14 Dontkillme wrote:
Holy shit how long has it been since the sAviOr's matchmaking scandal? 4 years? Why do people still hate on him like he is hitler??

because he killed the game?


only thing he killed was his own career, not the game; wtf

Personally I don't care, because I express my opinion by actually subscribing to it. I'm just telling you what people would use as a justification.

Also at italics, so what do you cal Justin, Hwasin and all the other guys? Some people don't really think their arguments through...


Killed their own careers as foolishly as Savior did.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
October 11 2013 01:56 GMT
#296
On October 10 2013 20:13 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2013 19:45 Highways wrote:
Didn't sAviOr beat iloveoovs 27 win streak vs Zerg?


In all honesty, I think this is the reason why oov hates Savior

/hash tag "truth hurts" in-one-word (:
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 11 2013 02:43 GMT
#297
Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1707 Posts
October 11 2013 03:26 GMT
#298
On October 11 2013 11:43 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.


I'm thinking about this too. exactly! he in fact destroyed everyone, including bw e-sports or perhaps e-sports in korea too. it was such a let down.

and to those people who can't understand why there is so much hate on savior even after 4yrs - of course, savior was a bonjwa, there was so much expectations from him. he should be a role model like the other bonjwas (boxer, oov, nada and flash) but instead of being a role model he tainted the scene. i'm pretty sure oov is also mad at the other players who fixed the matches, but just have more impact on savior. and obviously, this scandal caused sponsors to mistrust e-sports.

i'm indifferent whether bisu plays with savior, may be just for old time's sake, why not? but to oov's point, what he doesn't like is probably for the pro-gamers (both retired and active) to encourage savior to play more bw. savior should have completely disappeared from the scene after the scandal and move-on from e-sports.
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 11 2013 03:48 GMT
#299
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50120 Posts
October 11 2013 03:52 GMT
#300
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 11 2013 03:58 GMT
#301
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
October 11 2013 05:03 GMT
#302
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
October 11 2013 05:24 GMT
#303
Maybe Casy should be a legend
Forcewater
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
October 11 2013 05:30 GMT
#304
Casy will always be a legend in my heart.
"Reddit on the other hand has always just been a box full of retarded blind puppies licking and sniffing everything they come in contact with and leaving it moist and oily" - Gamegene
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5479 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 05:37:10
October 11 2013 05:36 GMT
#305
On October 11 2013 09:29 Aunvilgod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.


heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.

I love the fact that straight off the bat you start your post by assuming that SC2 was actually alive at some point in time. Secondly why should somebody stop doing something that they love, and get paid for doing it just so that something that they don't quite like might have some potential growth or rather slowing down its impending death?
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 05:38:41
October 11 2013 05:37 GMT
#306
On October 11 2013 14:03 Caladbolg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary


doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..

but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me

he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
October 11 2013 05:48 GMT
#307
Pretty unfair judgment from oov imo.
AppleSauce123
Profile Joined October 2013
Denmark148 Posts
October 11 2013 06:07 GMT
#308
Shaft...I respect your opinion but it's the wrong opinion.

Bisu is as legendary as any Protoss player can get. I don't think you realized how paralyzed protoss players were during Savior's era of dominance. You do remember that Bisu received like 3% voter-poll chance of winning his MSL match against Saviour? What does that tell you? More than that, he was the dominant Protoss during the Legend of the Fall in 2008, the era of Protoss dominance marked by Best making the finals against JulyZerg, Stork finally winning and OSL and Bisu beating Best and Jangbi in PvP's to win his MSL. Sure he hasn't been successful in individual leagues since his last title, but he's dominated proleague. What other Protoss player can say that? Jangbi went through a 10+ game losing streak ffs. He's also 8-2 against Jaedong in their last 10 matchups, meaning he OWNS jaedong. No other Protoss player can say that. Plus, he's beaten Flash in CRUCIAL FINALS playoff games at least twice, to WIN TEAM CHAMPIONSHIPS. Say what you want, but this guy delivers and he's not only a Protoss legend, or broodwar legend, he's a legend of esports.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 11 2013 06:20 GMT
#309
Happy to be part of that 3 percent. Bisu was pretty dominant for a short while as well. It's not like his other match-ups were abysmal. Stork don't forget range, hue! BD
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
October 11 2013 06:22 GMT
#310
I think oov is being too harsh on Bisu. And well I guess this is indeed a problem of being associated with Savior in any way, shape or form.

Its undoubted that Savior has done a great deal of irreversible harm to BW, but he should still be respected and admired as a player and the master tactician he was, and it shouldn't be a crime to be in any way associated with him. After all being friends with Savior doesn't imply being into match fixing or having match fixed yourself.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Jayson X
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Switzerland2431 Posts
October 11 2013 06:45 GMT
#311
Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.

oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.

sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.

So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
October 11 2013 06:57 GMT
#312
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote:
Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.

oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.

sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.

So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.

Looking at Esports as an industry should foster the exact opposite view of what oov is saying. Look at LoL or Dota 2. Streaming is a huge part of what made LoL into the monster it is and pros streaming in Dota brings in lots of viewers, as well. To dismiss streaming as being part of Esports is disingenuous.

Savior and what he did is despicable and should be vilified in esports history, but honestly, oov is letting his (justified) hatred of Savior cloud his judgement.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
October 11 2013 07:00 GMT
#313
On October 11 2013 14:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 14:03 Caladbolg wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary


doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..

but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me

he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.


Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.

Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.

That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.
TL+ Member
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18401 Posts
October 11 2013 07:13 GMT
#314
Is oov seriously criticizing older players for streaming?
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
October 11 2013 07:19 GMT
#315
On October 11 2013 16:13 sharkie wrote:
Is oov seriously criticizing older players for streaming?

No. Check a few pages back for a detailed analysis of the translation. The wording is just very vague.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18401 Posts
October 11 2013 07:22 GMT
#316
On October 11 2013 16:19 Nerevar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 16:13 sharkie wrote:
Is oov seriously criticizing older players for streaming?

No. Check a few pages back for a detailed analysis of the translation. The wording is just very vague.


Yeah I did and thats why I am asking:

On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.

shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
October 11 2013 07:42 GMT
#317
On October 11 2013 16:00 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 14:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 14:03 Caladbolg wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary


doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..

but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me

he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.


Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.

Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.

That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.


Dude, it's my opinion and you're saying that my opinion is wrong. My opinions are not up for debate. The names I listed before had a strong and consistent following. And no I am not attacking Bisu personally. I'm just saying many people would see him as a legendary player but, to me, he just wasn't. It's just like how other people would see as Effort or Jangbi being legendary, if they ever did. I would compare Jangbi, Effort, Fantasy, Stork along with Bisu. Great players, not Legendary but again .. that's just me.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 08:01:34
October 11 2013 08:01 GMT
#318
On October 11 2013 16:22 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 16:19 Nerevar wrote:
On October 11 2013 16:13 sharkie wrote:
Is oov seriously criticizing older players for streaming?

No. Check a few pages back for a detailed analysis of the translation. The wording is just very vague.


Yeah I did and thats why I am asking:

Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
은퇴한 많은 선수들이 인터넷 개인방송을 하는 것으로 아는데, 진정으로 e스포츠판을 생각하고, 후배들을 생각한다면 그럴 수는 없겠죠.
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.



Its somewhat confusing. People assume his 'that' refers to playing with Savior on Afreeca from the previous sentence. Otherwise it makes no sense.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
October 11 2013 08:16 GMT
#319
On October 11 2013 16:00 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 14:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 14:03 Caladbolg wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary


doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..

but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me

he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.


Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.

Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.

That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.


v. good post
why so 진지해?
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
October 11 2013 08:35 GMT
#320
On October 11 2013 16:42 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 16:00 Letmelose wrote:
On October 11 2013 14:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 14:03 Caladbolg wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On October 11 2013 12:48 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On October 11 2013 10:25 Chrispy wrote:
Scumbag Savior! I respect oov's opinion and agree with it... for a legend like Bisu to support Savior (which is what he'd be doing if he plays with him) in anyway is a giant middle finger to all those who were affected by Savior's matchfixing...

If Savior had any honour at all he would've disappeared from the scene permanently.


When did Bisu became a legend? lol

3-3-07 was a legendary revolution.

that was just a revolution of a build .. didn't made him legendary to me .. boxer, july, oov, savior, nada, flash, grrrr, jd .. those were legendary in their own right .. I guess you can say that, to me, OSL makes you legendary. but that's just me.


That makes you wrong, but you're entitled to an opinion. Yellow was a legend but never won. Compared to him, was ggplay more of a legend? Doubt it. Nalra only got one.... Is he not a legend? But if getting an osl makes you a legend, are the one-off winners legends? How about jangbi, who got 2 straight? If he's a legend, why is a superior protoss not considered legendary?

More than this, he was he only true underdog who slayed a bonjwa at his prime, and made an imbalanced matchup playable for his entire race. If he's not a legend, if the revolution was just about a build that worked, then pretty much nothing in bw history can be legendary


doesn't really mean that if they won an OSL, they're insta legends to me. but yeah I get your point, still bisu isn't a legendary player in my pov .. because after that revolution, he only dominated 1 match up because of the build itself and after it was countered and normalized he became an above-average player with awesome PvZ sniping skills that failed to show great results in many tournaments. Sure, he was great in his PL runs but if you looked closely, most of the players he fought aren't really big shots ..

but yeah it's just the way I'm seeing it .. great player? yes .. Legendary? not to me

he was so over-hyped back then, too .. I'd root for Best any day than Bisu. So high expectations yet hardly delivers.


Bisu's legacy both feeds on, and suffers from excessive media hype that surrounded Bisu. Even if people only remember the media created image of the golden boy of the protoss race, not the player he actually was, that's no reason to go to the other extreme and pretend that he was simply an overrated media hype machine. Bisu was a legendary player, with an even bigger legacy due to is good looks, exciting playstyle, being a member of the most successful, as well as the recognizable team, SK Telecom T1, and of course the dramatic nature of his career.

Bisu had his flaws, but there's only a select few who are byond reproach, and sure his legacy is not on the same level as NaDa, but he would take top ten material in terms of his professional career almost any way you cut it. Top ten in a decade long e-Sports that had the likes of BoxeR, YellOw, NaDa, iloveoov, July, sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Outside of those nine (who are on a level above, or similar to him in terms of their overall careers in my opinion), who would can you point out as having a professional career that was greater than Bisu's? Grrr... was more of a Starcraft legend (his peak preceded e-Sports in my opinion), rather than a legendary professional Stacraft player, Nal rA was magical, but his erratic nature was even more profound than Bisu's, and is marked by flashes of brilliance, rather than sustained top level consistency, GARIMTO was nothing outside of his memorable OGN StarLeague triumphs, and consistent players such as ChoJJa never reached the heights that Bisu managed.

That's legendary enough, just by the basis of results, and once you start to add sentimental value to it (his destruction of sAviOr at his absolute peak, his influence on the metagame, and his finals victory over Stork in what people will probably first think of when we compare the two), that's when Bisu's legacy really starts to get out of hand. Now I don't agree with with people taking snippets out of a person's career that happened to be the most heavily followed by the media, or adding emotional value to it, but even if you take those factors out, there's no doubt that Bisu left behind a legendary career, unless you start to take points off him for personal reasons, which basically makes you as guilty as people who overrate Bisu for sentimental reasons.


Dude, it's my opinion and you're saying that my opinion is wrong. My opinions are not up for debate. The names I listed before had a strong and consistent following. And no I am not attacking Bisu personally. I'm just saying many people would see him as a legendary player but, to me, he just wasn't. It's just like how other people would see as Effort or Jangbi being legendary, if they ever did. I would compare Jangbi, Effort, Fantasy, Stork along with Bisu. Great players, not Legendary but again .. that's just me.


Actually it was originally you laughing at somebody else's notion that Bisu is a legend. Why was it okay for you to laugh at their opinion but not okay for somebody to point out how your opinion is nonsensical?

As for Bisu's PL runs, like the one where he Broke Flash's Record For Most Wins and did it at a higher win%, yeah, I guess he was just lucky to play subpar players or something. Like that time he defeated the greatest and best player of all time in SWL and PL finals.

Also, your opinion is that OSL is The Only Thing and that July and Grrrr are legends over Bisu. So basically your opinion is really silly and people should laugh at it. Calling it your opinion doesn't change that.
~
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
October 11 2013 08:40 GMT
#321
Eh... let's leave the legacy of Bisu to other threads that have exhaustively discussed all sides. While I honestly don't understand why people can even think of someone else as the GOAT of Protoss, it's even more perplexing to me how someone can see him as somehow not being legendary and terribly over-hyped. His Protoss legacy is up for debate, in the same way that Flash's Terran legacy is up for debate (vs Nada and iloveoov), as well as Jaedong's legacy (Savior, July).

Back to the particular topic, iloveoov has long been outspoken. Now, if I recall correctly, he gave an interview right after the scandal about Savior. In that interview, while he did not forgive Savior's acts, he showed a bit of understanding about the possible reasons Savior would have done what he did. About being stagnant (and bored) at the top, being frustrated at being unable to stay on top, etc etc. Right now, I'm guessing he's updated his stance. He's seen firsthand how damaging the match fixing scandal was to BW, yes, but also to esports and the Starcraft brand. I'm guessing he's just expressing the fact that his disappointment with Savior has increased because of Starcraft's sorry state.

In the same vein, he's also expressing a senior player/coach/mentor's apprehension about a former student being involved with the man vilified by the entire community. He doesn't want Bisu to taint his legacy (which in oov's eyes is probably a bit a bit diminished because Bisu didn't keep trying to get back on top in SC2). So much so that even the possibility that Bisu considered playing against Savior was already such a let down to him.

I think I can forgive oov's overreaching statements. I just hope that once he finds out that Bisu didn't play Savior (but merely watching his former pro-games against Savior), then he'd reach out and apologize for being hasty in the interview.
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
McRatyn
Profile Joined January 2013
Poland901 Posts
October 11 2013 08:53 GMT
#322
On October 11 2013 15:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote:
Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.

oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.

sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.

So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.

Looking at Esports as an industry should foster the exact opposite view of what oov is saying. Look at LoL or Dota 2. Streaming is a huge part of what made LoL into the monster it is and pros streaming in Dota brings in lots of viewers, as well. To dismiss streaming as being part of Esports is disingenuous.

Savior and what he did is despicable and should be vilified in esports history, but honestly, oov is letting his (justified) hatred of Savior cloud his judgement.


Maybe from the industry point of view it's right but in my opinion streaming differs somehow for MOBAs and SC. I may be a bit vague here, apologies, but what i mean is that streaming and thus engaging with your audience 1) makes you a bit less concentrated 2)exposes your tactics for opponents to watch if you serioulsy uesd it for training. The thing is little mechanical errors that that creates have different implications to your performance as a whole. Missing 1 creep rarely, if even makes or breaks your game, but missing a supply? The game may be lost bacause of that. And to the second point we do not see training scrims of MOBAs being streamed, do we? So while it may help the industry, it may also crash it, since it should be performance, quality of play that defines it not really viewer numbers or paychecks. Healthy balance is needed between streaming and Hyperbolic Time Chamber training-yourself-until-your-eyes-start-to-bleed ;P. How to achive it? I do not have a solution, don't know if there is one, or if I'm even right in the grand scale of things. Just my two cents.

To be on topic, hmm oov does seem a bit harsh, just wandering if there may be some other underlying issues between the two gentlemen?
ppshchik
Profile Joined September 2010
United States862 Posts
October 11 2013 09:51 GMT
#323
Oov can go eat a dick, both Bisu and Savior are no longer registered progamers and they can do w/e they want.
Legends never die... they end up working in McDonalds.
ImbaTosS
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1687 Posts
October 11 2013 12:11 GMT
#324
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote:
See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.

So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.

This just comes off as insulting towards Bisu- a player who has worked hard for many years at being a great BW player, and has no motivation to play a different game. He now streams, which his fans and many other people greatly enjoy, and is doing something which he enjoys. To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.

I have nothing but respect for what oov did in the past, but to make out like he's taking the hard, noble way now by going back into SC2 (which wasn't exactly built on sweat and hard work of the fans and players from the ground up), is equally absurd.
EleGant[AoV]
L1ghtning
Profile Joined July 2013
Sweden353 Posts
October 11 2013 12:28 GMT
#325
I'm really confused. Obviously Bisu would never stream while playing Savior, and him being friendly with him outside of streaming would be purely speculation (and irrelevant), so what's the problem? Maybe oov is bitter towards Afreeca just for allowing Savior to stream, but Afreeca is not purely a BW streaming program, so you can't expect them to ban him from streaming.

I admire Bisu for having the guts to retire and to fully speak his mind about it. I didn't expect such honesty from Bisu. He have nothing to be ashamed of.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18401 Posts
October 11 2013 12:45 GMT
#326
On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.


Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2.

Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
October 11 2013 13:13 GMT
#327
On October 11 2013 10:50 traceurling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 09:29 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:
On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:
On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.)


This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that.


You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs.


heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived.

I don't think brood war is what's holding SC2 back


It is not the only thing.

On October 11 2013 11:43 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.


Dude make more memes pl0x.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
October 11 2013 13:44 GMT
#328
On October 11 2013 21:45 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.


Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2.

Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.

Bisu's risk had the trigger called salary cut though. But yeah, reasons behind Stork not jumping the bandwagon back to BW confuses me, unless Samsung pays him like the same amount (despite his perfomance) it does not make sense.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
LightAngels
Profile Joined April 2010
United States299 Posts
October 11 2013 14:12 GMT
#329
So how much money do pro-gamers make for streaming on Afreeca?
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
October 11 2013 15:06 GMT
#330
there is no bisu without savior. a debatable statement, but i stand behind it.

i'm not a bisu fan, but i acknowledge that he is an absolute legend, and the way he created his legend was by smashing the unbeatable savior 3-0 using an incredible strategy. the maestro, who was thought to be the complete player in every department, was instead thoroughly outplayed, without looking as though he ever had a chance. his long reign was over. it was a sensational night.

time for oov to consider this.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9500 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-11 22:01:19
October 11 2013 15:13 GMT
#331
This thread is such a clusterfuck. Starting from the ambiguous translations, to you people arguing about multiple, completely unrelated things at the same time. Anyways, consider this thread has run its course.
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