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Eh... let's leave the legacy of Bisu to other threads that have exhaustively discussed all sides. While I honestly don't understand why people can even think of someone else as the GOAT of Protoss, it's even more perplexing to me how someone can see him as somehow not being legendary and terribly over-hyped. His Protoss legacy is up for debate, in the same way that Flash's Terran legacy is up for debate (vs Nada and iloveoov), as well as Jaedong's legacy (Savior, July).
Back to the particular topic, iloveoov has long been outspoken. Now, if I recall correctly, he gave an interview right after the scandal about Savior. In that interview, while he did not forgive Savior's acts, he showed a bit of understanding about the possible reasons Savior would have done what he did. About being stagnant (and bored) at the top, being frustrated at being unable to stay on top, etc etc. Right now, I'm guessing he's updated his stance. He's seen firsthand how damaging the match fixing scandal was to BW, yes, but also to esports and the Starcraft brand. I'm guessing he's just expressing the fact that his disappointment with Savior has increased because of Starcraft's sorry state.
In the same vein, he's also expressing a senior player/coach/mentor's apprehension about a former student being involved with the man vilified by the entire community. He doesn't want Bisu to taint his legacy (which in oov's eyes is probably a bit a bit diminished because Bisu didn't keep trying to get back on top in SC2). So much so that even the possibility that Bisu considered playing against Savior was already such a let down to him.
I think I can forgive oov's overreaching statements. I just hope that once he finds out that Bisu didn't play Savior (but merely watching his former pro-games against Savior), then he'd reach out and apologize for being hasty in the interview.
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On October 11 2013 15:57 Ryuu314 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote:
Well surely we're looking at different perspectives here.
oov is not a player anymore. He's looking at E-Sport as an industry. Looks at it from where it came to where it went. He's done and seen it all as a player and reached heights only a handfull of players ever managed to reach. He saw the industry growing from a dream to reality. Realise when Bisu started out professionally oov already had 2 OSL and 3 MSL under his belt (that's starleague victories to the people who didn't follow BW). oov actively helped building the industry by creating history and him staying in it to coach is a true sign of an active interest to keep it alive and make more history.
sAviOr probably represents the total opposite of oov's philosophy. He was majorly talented but also heavily greedy and had no problem jeopardising a whole industry. See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else. Looking at Esports as an industry should foster the exact opposite view of what oov is saying. Look at LoL or Dota 2. Streaming is a huge part of what made LoL into the monster it is and pros streaming in Dota brings in lots of viewers, as well. To dismiss streaming as being part of Esports is disingenuous. Savior and what he did is despicable and should be vilified in esports history, but honestly, oov is letting his (justified) hatred of Savior cloud his judgement.
Maybe from the industry point of view it's right but in my opinion streaming differs somehow for MOBAs and SC. I may be a bit vague here, apologies, but what i mean is that streaming and thus engaging with your audience 1) makes you a bit less concentrated 2)exposes your tactics for opponents to watch if you serioulsy uesd it for training. The thing is little mechanical errors that that creates have different implications to your performance as a whole. Missing 1 creep rarely, if even makes or breaks your game, but missing a supply? The game may be lost bacause of that. And to the second point we do not see training scrims of MOBAs being streamed, do we? So while it may help the industry, it may also crash it, since it should be performance, quality of play that defines it not really viewer numbers or paychecks. Healthy balance is needed between streaming and Hyperbolic Time Chamber training-yourself-until-your-eyes-start-to-bleed ;P. How to achive it? I do not have a solution, don't know if there is one, or if I'm even right in the grand scale of things. Just my two cents.
To be on topic, hmm oov does seem a bit harsh, just wandering if there may be some other underlying issues between the two gentlemen?
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Oov can go eat a dick, both Bisu and Savior are no longer registered progamers and they can do w/e they want.
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United Kingdom1749 Posts
On October 11 2013 15:45 Jayson X wrote:
See what oov knows because he started out when there was none to only a handfull of people watching (and not the mega event it became) and Bisu judging from his retirement interview does not, is that you need to create history first to get fans. You have to earn it.
So Bisu picked the easy road out. The save choice. Go back to what you know and squeeze out the money that's left. Meanwhile oov has set the task to be a part of building up an industry (again). Wether that endeavour is ultimately possible is something else.
This just comes off as insulting towards Bisu- a player who has worked hard for many years at being a great BW player, and has no motivation to play a different game. He now streams, which his fans and many other people greatly enjoy, and is doing something which he enjoys. To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
I have nothing but respect for what oov did in the past, but to make out like he's taking the hard, noble way now by going back into SC2 (which wasn't exactly built on sweat and hard work of the fans and players from the ground up), is equally absurd.
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I'm really confused. Obviously Bisu would never stream while playing Savior, and him being friendly with him outside of streaming would be purely speculation (and irrelevant), so what's the problem? Maybe oov is bitter towards Afreeca just for allowing Savior to stream, but Afreeca is not purely a BW streaming program, so you can't expect them to ban him from streaming.
I admire Bisu for having the guts to retire and to fully speak his mind about it. I didn't expect such honesty from Bisu. He have nothing to be ashamed of.
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On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2.
Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.
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On October 11 2013 10:50 traceurling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 09:29 Aunvilgod wrote:On October 11 2013 09:19 white_horse wrote:On October 11 2013 09:05 Aunvilgod wrote:On October 11 2013 07:01 juki wrote:
I hear that many retired players are broadcasting on Afreeca; if they really are thinking of e-sports and their younger teammates, they wouldn't do that.
(Herein lies the key point, what exactly is the 'that' which Choi Yun-Sung thinks that the retired players should not do? Is it streaming in general, or being friendly with Ma Jae-Yoon? Although reading this sentence by itself makes it sounds like the former, based on the context of the previous sentences, I am inclined to think that it is the latter, and that he is not against their streaming as a whole.) This does make sense. Of course them streaming BW undermines the value of SCII as an esport. People won't take it serious if people retire just to play another game. And don't tell me that coexistence is truly possible, thats BS. The community is not big enough for that. You are misinterpreting his post. oov is against players being friendly with savior, not against streaming BW in general. I don't think oov is heartless enough to get angry that the growing BW afreeca community takes away from SC2. Which doesn't even make sense in the first place because SC2 is basically dead in korea. There's really nothing more to take away from in the first place. And he's a former BW pro ffs. heartless? No, the opposite. He feels very sorry for the Koreans who still play SC2 and don't get recognition because SC2 is dead. Streaming BW on Afreeca won't revive SC2 in Korea though, it will prevent it from being revived. I don't think brood war is what's holding SC2 back
It is not the only thing.
On October 11 2013 11:43 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well atleast Savior was honest when he said he would destroy everyone in 2009.
Dude make more memes pl0x.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 21:45 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 21:11 ImbaTosS wrote:
To say he's gone off to squeeze the money that's left is plain rude and ill-informed. The easy road out, the "safe choice", would be to sit there in the teamhouse playing a game you don't enjoy just because you were moved sideways into that job already, like most of the hopeless leeches in the SC2 scene who will never get near any meaningful success, and likely don't work hard enough for it.
Yeah as much as you can give respect to Stork in BW, thats exactly what he is doing in SC2. Stork is just not willing to take the risk Bisu has taken.
Bisu's risk had the trigger called salary cut though. But yeah, reasons behind Stork not jumping the bandwagon back to BW confuses me, unless Samsung pays him like the same amount (despite his perfomance) it does not make sense.
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So how much money do pro-gamers make for streaming on Afreeca?
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there is no bisu without savior. a debatable statement, but i stand behind it.
i'm not a bisu fan, but i acknowledge that he is an absolute legend, and the way he created his legend was by smashing the unbeatable savior 3-0 using an incredible strategy. the maestro, who was thought to be the complete player in every department, was instead thoroughly outplayed, without looking as though he ever had a chance. his long reign was over. it was a sensational night.
time for oov to consider this.
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Croatia9571 Posts
This thread is such a clusterfuck. Starting from the ambiguous translations, to you people arguing about multiple, completely unrelated things at the same time. Anyways, consider this thread has run its course.
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EPT
