On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
seriously what? maddelisk did a good job so what? moletrap did a good job too and look what happened to him.
its completely laughable that you think the solution to a lack of female casters is just to get more women talking (because we NEED! them). you're literally putting them up to get shit on because they dont have the following/skill/influence required to do it then you turn around and blame everyone else for being misogynistic.
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
What?
Right. What?
I said denying it has anything to do with sexism is delusional. I didn't say what you thought I said, at all.
How is it delusional?
There is nothing to suggest lack of female casters has anything to do with sexism. The demographic easily and simply explains things. What point are you trying to make?
I fear that Esports thinks that women will attract people to the croud if they are out "on the field" and not in the casting booth, so I guess it will take time untill we will have female casters in primier events. I will be happy to listen to a female caster duo with a male or even another female, it will be really cool and will add variety to casting. We do have the casters that are connected to the companies (tastosis=gom, Axslav+Axeltoss=mlg etc.) so seeing those companies add female casters will give a change, but it will have to be this revolutionary move.
Isn't there a (rather nice looking) Korean caster who is a woman?
By the way, female does sound kind of shitty, saying "woman" or "lady" just sounds better. Please change thread title to "why are there no lady casters?"
On July 28 2013 18:55 Waxangel wrote: can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
Neckbeards.
Women in sports reporting are becoming less and less marginalized, but for esports specifically, its probably more related to the same reason there are few women who are progamers than some sort of bigotry conspiracy or good ol boys club.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"...
Strawman: The esport-world at all level is not remotely close to 50/50... so it is quite 'logical' that the caster and pro-player population reflect the composition of the user base....
What is the male female ratio on ladder ? in master ? in grand-master ? [ note the ladder group a purely on merit, the ladder ranking algorithm does not _know_ your gender ]. Sure anyone that dedicate themselves to become good a SC2 can reach master, regardless of gender... or at the very least there is no reason that a given random sample of men and women would not reach the same ladder level distribute, given the _same_ amount of work/training.
But it is a fallacy to claim that because the 'world' at large is 50/50 male/female therefore we should observe the same 50/50 composition in any self-selected subset of the world.
Please watch the excellent Norwegian documentary on the topic:
Some things are more attractive to men and some more attractive to women. Deal with it and if you find the lack of women problematic you should think a little more about the important question of "Are men and women the same?" which isnt the same as "Should they be treated equally in society?". First question gets a NO and the second a YES from me, but if you think about that you have to accept that there are differences between the sexes and that is a good thing! It would be a terribly boring life if we were all the same and liked and disliked the same stuff.
Long live "the difference" ... because globalization and misguided equality enforcement will make us all "the same" sooner or later in a few decades. Coca Cola, McDonalds and american TV shows are a first bad sign for things to come.
If a woman has the enthusiasm and talent to cast Starcraft she can and should do so, but pushing them into doing so just because the nerds here dont get to listen to a girl talking otherwise is a bad thing. Not having any women in the scene is NOT a sign of sexism ... they just arent interested in that type of a hobby.
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
You say that the bolded part is overt sexism, but present no argument as to why. It's really not obvious to me. Care to explain why saying someone tried to achieve popularity by other means than by doing their job is sexist?
Yelling is not going to make your point more valid.
We are not talking about 'gaming', but the subset of gaming that is e-sport, and more particularity SC2, a real-time strategy game... not all game genre get the same gender participation ratio...
Otherwise we could as well look at 'caster' in the wider context of on-air personalities, and count Oprah, Helene DeGeneris, the View etc... in the numbers....
The article you reference, and especially the assocaited reference are worth reading too... for instance the same sale survey says that there are 37% of 36+ years old player... where are the 37+ years old caster ? or pro-players ? <rethorical>is e-sport suffering from ageism ?</rethorical>
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
You say that the bolded part is overt sexism, but present no argument as to why. It's really not obvious to me. Care to explain why saying someone tried to achieve popularity by other means than by doing their job is sexist?
You may be right. I read it as saying that kellymilkies was wrong in what she did because she's a woman. I suppose that wasn't necessarily the intended meaning, though it seems strongly implied in the context. (From the fact that typically only women pose in lingerie in magazines.)
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
What?
Right. What?
I said denying it has anything to do with sexism is delusional. I didn't say what you thought I said, at all.
How is it delusional?
There is nothing to suggest lack of female casters has anything to do with sexism. The demographic easily and simply explains things. What point are you trying to make?
I'm trying to make the point that denying sexism has any effect on women in our community is ridiculous, especially when the person making the claim seems to realize this.
If you read my earlier posts, you must have seen I already acknowledged demographics.
On July 28 2013 18:55 Waxangel wrote: can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
Sorry if I am ignorant here, but could you explain why it matters? "Female/male casters" just sounds better to me than "women/men casters". The latter just feels awkward to say but maybe that's just me.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Women in this scene don't get harassed any more than the men do. There's negative comments about basically everyone, you are simply not holding these comments to the same standards and view criticism of women as inherently sexist.
How many women actually play SC2? I keep hearing that women make up roughly 40-50% of the gaming market, yet you never run into them online while playing. I think they're counting casual female gamers into that figure, which is why we don't see them in the community. You can't have female casters when there are hardly any females in the community to begin with. We're making a mountain out of a molehill here.
On July 29 2013 06:56 Havik_ wrote: How many women actually play SC2? I keep hearing that women make up roughly 40-50% of the gaming market, yet you never run into them online while playing. I think they're counting casual female gamers into that figure, which is why we don't see them in the community. You can't have female casters when there are hardly any females in the community to begin with. We're making a mountain out of a molehill here.
Most games that are women don't advertise their presence specifically to avoid the typical negative attention that they get. You probably play a good amount of them on the ladder and never know it.
On July 28 2013 23:46 Yoav wrote: And this is the problem. You're deflecting the issue and failing to understand that in emotional contexts, emotional reactions are relevant.
To you maybe... but what make _your_ perception of what is important something that you can legitimely _make_ the rest of the world care about ?
If you're trying to present a good face to Rwandans, don't joke about genocide. If you're trying to welcome women, you don't joke about rape.
That is the point. who says that he is trying ? maybe he jsut care about SC@ and not so much about 'Politically Correct' discourse ? By your argument, one should not organized competition on the Sabbath because that is not welcoming of religious player. One should not have a 'Zerg' race, since its very core concept is an insult to people that deny evolution (about 1/3 of the US population)
Language is powerful, and you have to think about the terms you use if you mean to present a good face to the world.
And your solution is censure ? ... and of course lobby to impose it to the rest of the world... Did it ever crossed you mind that the notion of 'censure' is just as abhorrent to some people than the notion of you are decrying? (turning 'censure' as a good thing, just like you claim that 'rape' in the context of a massive victory allegedly glorify rape)... so your own guiding principle only apply to the concept/notion _you_ care about ?
On July 29 2013 04:38 OpTiKAiTech wrote: I saw Soe cast a few times. She doesn't do a whole lot of Sc2 though, which is a shame since her casting is pretty decent.
Actually I remember seeing her casting as well, can't remember the event though. I think she handled the casting really well, wouldn't mind seeing more of her.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Riddle me this. If women have it so much harder than men, how come that Rachel or Smix got invited to host one of the biggest tournaments in the scene, over many, many males. Look at someone like Nathanias or Chanman, these guys are putting alot more work and they aren't half as famous as either of the two. Nathanias has casted 1 big tournament despite working, sometimes, 12 hours a day or even more than that. Look at Tara Babcock, she's in Gold or Platinum league and sometimes gets 2000 concurrent viewers on her stream, name a single player (with perhaps the exception of TB) who gets that many viewers who is not top grandmaster or a top personality such as Artosis. Right, there is nobody.
If you are willing to reap the benefits of being female and be more popular than any male who has put in the same amount of effort as you, you better be prepared to accept that there will be jealousy. It is actually incredibly easy for female starcraft players to get a job in this industry or have a large viewer base, much easier than it is for any male.
So can we stop this bullshit? Look at Anna, Rachel, Smix, Tara Babcock, etc... let's not delude ourselves into thinking that they somehow bring more to the table than many of the males (which are a vast majority in SC2) who are trying to do the same thing or applying for the same jobs.
It is so dishonest to argue that women have it harder in this industry, because the few who actually tried, made it with alot less effort than some of the people who worked their asses off to get to where they are now (Artosis, chanman, Nathanias, to name a few) and who took alot more risks and some of these male personalities such as Nathanias or Chanman, are still less popular than Anna or Rachel, despite putting in alot more effort.
edit: Or hell, look at aluj or QueenE, they both got interviews on the main stream of the respective tournaments they participated in, despite losing in the first or second round of the tournament. NO MALE who didn't win the tournament ever got this much exposure on stream and the only reason they were featured on stream was the fact that they are female.
So how could you possibly argue that they have it harder in this community, when the only requirement for them to get featured on stream is to play... not even win... just play in a freaking tournament.
EPT
