I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
in "real" sports, women tend to be token in broadcasting. generally they are sideline reporters etc. not surprised to see few woman casters in esports, considering they tend to appeal to men
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
In soccer there's Gabby Logan. In tennis Sue Barker, Lindsay Davenport and a couple of others. Being a Brit I don't know about NFL or NBA, and I agree that most sports have more male commentators than women, but the complete lack of any prominent women casting major events seems odd. Also, while we're on the topic, the most prominent horse racing commentator/pundit in the UK is probably Claire Balding.
They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
There's one female NBA caster. Doris Burke, so don't include the NBA like you know all the people who cast NBA games on ESPN and ABC and TNT.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
Because that discussion can't lead anywhere good. And IIRC mods have shown little patience for it.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
That's like saying ''He is black but asks us to consider him white. Skin colour doesen't matter.''
It does matter. I will call her female, because I got respect for her, but when talking conrecetely about gender, I will admit, that Scarlett has an Y chromosome.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
It's balanced when you factor in all Sims, MMOs and facebook games. The more competitive and hardcore a game is the less female gamers it has. It's pretty simple really.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
That's like saying ''He is black but asks us to consider him white. Skin colour doesen't matter.''
It does matter. I will call her female, because I got respect for her, but when talking conrecetely about gender, I will admit, that Scarlett has an Y chromosome.
I understand the logic, but this is different IMO. I consider that respect does include not taking chromosome into account (what for ?) though I don't really know if there's more to that than just my opinion...
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
We had the discussion about this Wikipedia entry already. It has a huge flaw because it does not differenciate between what games on what plattforms are played to what extend, etc.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
Well, just because you play video games, doesnt mean you are potential caster. If you are willing too make your living with esports you have to be pretty hardcore into gaming. So looking at all Gamers as a demographic doesnt really make sense. I'm pretty sure way TL has a lot more male users than female ones. Esports recruits from the extremes, and it's still probably far from balanced there.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
It's balanced when you factor in all Sims, MMOs and facebook games. The more competitive and hardcore a game is the less female gamers it has. It's pretty simple really.
First, whatever, it still makes the statement "they're only 5% of the market" false and dangerous. It is sad, but I do agree on the competitive part.
Second, that's interesting, because one of the most ancient esports was the one with the most female participating : Counter-Strike
Then, there still are a lot of women that are into hardcore gaming, more than you'd think, but sadly, this community isn't very women friendly, and that's one of the reasons you think there aren't that much in these kind of games.
there are female commentators on German football radio. Its a bit weird because they kind of try to emulate that masculine commentating style. Which is bound to fail / to be really awkward. at least in my opinion.
dunno physical sports in general have sex segregation. (definetely not gender segregation, just because you feel like youre gender is female youre not allowed to compete in female competitions for football or track and field athletics because it would be unfair)
Still competitions like chess or starcraft dont have any rulings and no obvious genetical disadvantage for women, yet even those mental sports are dominated by males (sex, not gender).
so makes one wonder if its because of discrimination (because from my experience women arent less intelligent) or if it is something genetical about competing /going on the hunt/ vs emphaty /caring for the family/ from an evolutionary-biological standpoint.
Im not sure if discrimination is that high in gaming. Even though there is a lot of discrimination in general in the world, i think lots of women know how to work that to their advantage. Im not sure if a discrimation free world is even possible, because where there are differences theres gonna be discrimation (positive/negative alike)
Wc3 had Bunny. And one more i think... don't remember her right now.
Ah i remember now, her name was Jaczie. Earlier there was another one i think, from SK i believe... idk why SC2 has none which are popular or well known.
Hm some girl covered DH games and I enjoyed her cast. Only discovered here since she streamed a Jaedong game. Now I forgot the name, but I did follow her on twitter so I might tune in to future casts. So they are there, but of course in very low number, since e-sports is still dominated by men, even if there are millions of girls playing sims or mmorpgs out there. I think we will have a big female caster in the future, it just hasn't happened yet, since the competition is hard.
Edit: Just found here between the people I follow. It's ZombieGrub @ZGGaming. She seems to play too and is the caster for Clarity Gaming.
I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me
It's odd, but it's not concerning. If there are few women who want to go in to proffesional esports commenating they shouldn't get a free ride to the top purely because they're a woman. There's two women in Korea who cast both Proleague and GSL and they do fine.
Women/Men don't need to have equality in every single sector of human life. If there's no women going for a job for example, why should we force a women into a position?
It is a sad fact that were a good female caster to emerge who was witty, charismatic, knowledgeable and talented, she would be dismissed by a good amount of people because she's a woman, or at least she'd be reduced to her physical attributes pretty quickly.
Every time she casted she'd either have creepy people saying they're in love with her and want to marry her, saying she's "cute" or something else that has nothing to do with her actual talent. After those people had been dealt with there'd be considerable amounts of people saying she was only where she was because of her gender.
I really couldn't be convinced otherwise having seen the shit current female community members have to deal with... but hey, I'd love to be proved wrong and for us to have a good female caster rise through the ranks. It's gonna be harder than by playing because I feel like casting has a low turnover rate and even lower than playing, and we have such a male dominated environment it's just not likely to happen.
On July 28 2013 19:31 Bizeheryer wrote: Dea at TaKe TV
She got a lot of hate and has not casted for months. Many women get hated out of the scene very fast; although in her case - while I don't agree with the hating, I am not unhappy she does not cast anymore.
I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me
It's odd, but it's not concerning. If there are few women who want to go in to proffesional esports commenating they shouldn't get a free ride to the top purely because they're a woman. There's two women in Korea who cast both Proleague and GSL and they do fine.
Women/Men don't need to have equality in every single sector of human life. If there's no women going for a job for example, why should we force a women into a position?
The problem would be if there was actually women that'd like to go for this position (e.g. caster in SC2), but we wouldn't know about them, nor the way they've failed to get to it. If it's purely based on skills, no problem, but if there is sexism invovled, then it becomes a problem, but we don't know about it :/
On July 28 2013 19:35 SgtCoDFish wrote: It is a sad fact that were a good female caster to emerge who was witty, charismatic, knowledgeable and talented, she would be dismissed by a good amount of people because she's a woman, or at least she'd be reduced to her physical attributes pretty quickly.
Every time she casted she'd either have creepy people saying they're in love with her and want to marry her, saying she's "cute" or something else that has nothing to do with her actual talent. After those people had been dealt with there'd be considerable amounts of people saying she was only where she was because of her gender.
I really couldn't be convinced otherwise having seen the shit current female community members have to deal with... but hey, I'd love to be proved wrong and for us to have a good female caster rise through the ranks. It's gonna be harder than by playing because I feel like casting has a low turnover rate and even lower than playing, and we have such a male dominated environment it's just not likely to happen.
On July 28 2013 19:31 Bizeheryer wrote: Dea at TaKe TV
She got a lot of hate and has not casted for months. Many women get hated out of the scene very fast; although in her case - wile I don't agree with the hating, I am not unhappy she does not cast anymore.
i almost forgot about her but i dont think she got a lot of hate.. other casters get similar amount of criticism too like Crash. I think most of the people were happy for a female casting but werent quite convinced about her knowledge of the game or being too shy on stream. But getting criticism on the internet is not really gender specific.
On July 28 2013 19:35 SgtCoDFish wrote: Every time she casted she'd either have creepy people saying they're in love with her and want to marry her, saying she's "cute" or something else that has nothing to do with her actual talent. After those people had been dealt with there'd be considerable amounts of people saying she was only where she was because of her gender.
This is actually what always makes me cringe. The people that spam chats with "nice tits" or say they got the job by being a woman can just be labeled as idiots and ingnored (most of the time). But the ones that always behave like creeps and think they are supportive by never actually praising them for how good they are at their job, but just keep proposing and shit are troublesome.
There was one female commentator in german football, that was the worst piece of trash casting i've ever heard. Women are usually used to look nice in front of the camera and to improve the image of tv shows as being gender neutral, but women in sports broadcasting simply do not perform nearly on the same level as men. How much of that is contributed by the fact that they don't get the same facilitation is a difficult question to answer.
On July 28 2013 19:35 SgtCoDFish wrote: Every time she casted she'd either have creepy people saying they're in love with her and want to marry her, saying she's "cute" or something else that has nothing to do with her actual talent. After those people had been dealt with there'd be considerable amounts of people saying she was only where she was because of her gender.
This is actually what always makes me cringe. The people that spam chats with "nice tits" or say they got the job by being a woman can just be labeled as idiots and ingnored (most of the time). But the ones that always behave like creeps and think they are supportive by never actually praising them for how good they are at their job, but just keep proposing and shit are troublesome.
Know what ? Though I'd like to be wrong so much, I often think that Twitch chats are more representative of the community that, say, TL.net. And we see a whole lot of this on the Twitch chats.
(On a side note, I wonder how many people from TL go on the Twitch chat and keep the level low there...)
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
On July 28 2013 19:35 SgtCoDFish wrote: Every time she casted she'd either have creepy people saying they're in love with her and want to marry her, saying she's "cute" or something else that has nothing to do with her actual talent. After those people had been dealt with there'd be considerable amounts of people saying she was only where she was because of her gender.
This is actually what always makes me cringe. The people that spam chats with "nice tits" or say they got the job by being a woman can just be labeled as idiots and ingnored (most of the time). But the ones that always behave like creeps and think they are supportive by never actually praising them for how good they are at their job, but just keep proposing and shit are troublesome.
Know what ? Though I'd like to be wrong so much, I often think that Twitch chats are more representative of the community that, say, TL.net. And we see a whole lot of this on the Twitch chats.
(On a side note, I wonder how many people from TL go on the Twitch chat and keep the level low there...)
Sheer numbers don't represent the community alone. Standards set by community leaders are just as important.
you just need to know where to look. ogn and gom has a female caster. theres one fps female caster (i believe it was for cs:go?) who appeared on liveon3 chinese dota 2 has 3 female casters. if i recall correctly there's, miss, snowkiss and xiao8's gf. i think there is one more girl but i cannot recall. sheever and meruna cast dota 2 for non-chinese scene. theres even more in fgc.
if I am not misinformed, in about half an hour a "DeutschCast" will start (german cast, where you are not allowed to say anything in english, and if you do, there will be punishment. It is a fun event rarely done by Mori09 of the mystarcraft.de community and actually really hard, as not only the german language is influenced heavily by english, also for the game a ton of english vocabulary is used, from unit names over stuff like "cheese" and "snowballing" up to "expand", "natural", "game" and many more. This time the cast is only organized by Mori09, the ones doing the cast will be two austrians (yeah, the same country and accent as Monchi), one caster is "cRY" and the other one "Becci" from "Beccis Playground". She is a girl, and about to cast some SC2 action (and she is not the first woman to cast/cohost a cast alongside Mori). It is not like there would be no girl at all casting, but those who do cast do so for fun and only when they feel like, not for a year every evening out of their basement hoping to eventually get picked up by a big event.
The community is so rude and unnecessary mean to most of the male casters out there, a female caster would get bad mouthed so much she'd need a psychiatrist to fix her up.
Every time, god forbid, I open a twitch chat all I see is whining and bitching about the casters or the production. The first woman caster would need to have an incredibly strong personality to be able to cope with that. I don't think it's impossible but just way harder for them.
The only female english speaking SC2 caster I've seen is Kelly Milkies doing some code A back in the day, and she was terrible, so I can't see any new potential female casters being any worse.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
well we had one as the first GSL casters ... people hated it and throw stones at her until they fire her its just you want a caster with a decent skill level, and to be honest if you have this skill level as women at the moment, you can just go play and make money with that xD
ps: also the koreans always has a female caster in their casting triple so ... its only that there are not much known english casters xD
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
Sorry, but why exactly do we "need" more female casters? We need good casters and that's it. If there's a female that's knowledgeable or entertaining and wants to cast, I am all for it. If there's not then too bad, but saying that we "need females" is silly.
The average gamer is still to young and immature, and for that reason the sexism is too strong in the scene. Just look at the twitch chat whenever Rachel Seltzer makes an appearance. That makes it hard for females to find a place beside the stereotypical "sexy hostess" one. It's not impossible though, for instance there's this dutch female dota2 caster who's pretty well-known, can't remember her name though. Waiting for that to happen in sc2.
On July 28 2013 20:44 neptunusfisk wrote: The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
because that is totally not what a host is about? Right. I think people like sjokz from league of legends or SeltzerPlease as a host, and I think they are doing a heck of a job. Maybe they do not have all the experience and quirkiness of a Redeye, but they still make for a good viewer experience. And that is not because of what they look like and how much skin they present (which is their own choice by the way), but because they enjoy doing it and are good at it.
In the UK there are several female commentators in sports - they are excellent.
Unfortunately in SC2 there aren't any excellent female casters yet, the men are better... so far.
There has generally been a bit of resentment toward female casters in SC2 so far because some feel they got the job on looks rather than all the elements that make a caster good.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
On July 28 2013 21:19 faderedguy wrote: Well, there's one right now in fact, casting sea masters cup on twitch at basetradetv lol @zepphsc2 is the female caster I believe
Yep, and the twitch chat unfortunately has a lot of examples of the aforementioned sexist stuff. She is actually pretty decent as a caster, nothing spectacular certainly, but solid casting all around.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
Congratulations on making a leap of logic few can. Here's some observations: the majority of high flying "good" casters have been in the scene for several years. The scene is predominantly a male based scene, and until recently there were all most no women in the public eye of it, now its almost approaching a percentage similar to my computer science classes. You can draw some conclusions from that.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
It's balanced when you factor in all Sims, MMOs and facebook games. The more competitive and hardcore a game is the less female gamers it has. It's pretty simple really.
Its only because they haven't been pulled in yet. Its only a matter of time.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
Congratulations on making a leap of logic few can.
I'm not saying he or she actually thinks that; I'm just saying that the views expressed are very similar in stupidness and chauvinism.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
Congratulations on making a leap of logic few can.
I'm not saying he or she actually thinks that; I'm just saying that the views expressed are very similar in stupidness and chauvinism.
You think that the opinion "women make up a tiny proportion of eSports" is at all similar to "You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough?"
In dota we have sheever and she does a good job. Started listening to her cast when tobi started to co cast with "Mr Once again blaaaaa". A woman caster or a man I don't care. If it is enjoyable to listen to I am fine with it. If the voice is a pain in the ass I will not.
But I think most women realised how much money they can make buy horny boys that watch their stream on twitch so they don't need to cast. Just play and show a bit skin and the money roles in.
Most women don't like hardcore games like Starcraft or competitive FPS. I don't know why. It could be cultural or biological, or both. It doesn't really matter why. The fact is most chicks don't dig this sort of thing.
As you said, there are relatively few pro-players. To cast you generally need to have some special insight in to the game to make it informative and fun. There are just no high level female casters, because there is not many women in starcraft.
On July 28 2013 21:58 Salient wrote: Most women don't like hardcore games like Starcraft or competitive FPS. I don't know why. It could be cultural or biological, or both. It doesn't really matter why. The fact is most chicks don't dig this sort of thing.
This. I think it's biological, women simply don't enjoy measuring the lenght of their penis like we do.
Sadly, the sexism among the gaming community is a major part of what deters people. My girlfriend is a gamer, but is constantly distanced and turned off of getting more involved with games, particularly SC, due to the wide proliferation of attitudes and language that is implicitly or explicitly offensive to women. It's usually nothing that wouldn't be prevalent among a group of middle school boys, but that's the point. The average range for SC players is what... 15-25 or so? There's no good reason for the community as a whole to act as immature as it does. The generally worse behavior that accompanies internet discourse is a part of the hostility. But even in places like TL, which is the best moderated forum I've ever encountered, sexism is rampant, as this thread testifies. And even Day[9], whom my girlfriend loves to watch and discuss, does occasionally use language (e.g. "rape") that can be understood as hostile to women.
I, for one, wish for a more tolerant community, and perhaps that can be found as the average E-sports fan gets older and more mature. But I'm not holding my breath.
On July 28 2013 22:02 Za7oX wrote: The peak of female commentary was Kelly Milkies. She set such a high standard that others are afraid to follow her.
Please. There is no need to be a troll. This is not very funny, and you are knowingly just saying stuff to see people get upset. If you don't really care about the topic, or Kelly as a person, then maybe you should just stay away. At very please, just pause to consider how this post is going to reflect on you.
On topic -
The lack of female casters is, I think, a natural consequence of having fewer female gamers. Good casters need a good understanding of the game, and this usually comes from being able to play at some level of competency. If there aren't many female players, then there won't be many female casters.
There are many reasons for this - things like cultural expectations of girls, interests and so on. Personally I think a big stumbling block is the that the community seems to have serious problems in being able to treat women like normal human beings. This is immensely distracting to any female gamer trying to break into the competitive scene, and may even just plain out scare people away.
Edit: For example, I think it is lamentable that in this very thread, some people feel the need to make a kitchen joke. I mean even setting aside that it is sexist... it's so old at this point it is not even funny. But still...
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
Congratulations on making a leap of logic few can.
I'm not saying he or she actually thinks that; I'm just saying that the views expressed are very similar in stupidness and chauvinism.
Could you be less ridiculous, maybe?
I made a statement of fact: women make up a small proportion of eSports. That's not stupid, nor is it ignorant. It's factual. It also very easily explains the lack of female casters.
I mean. . .I can't believe I have to defend myself here. It's almost like you're parodying something, because this is just too stupid.
On July 28 2013 22:10 Yoav wrote:And even Day[9], whom my girlfriend loves to watch and discuss, does occasionally use language (e.g. "rape") that can be understood as hostile to women.
Although sexism is a very bad thing, if people believe the word "rape" is hostile to women, then they are truly exaggerating. Then we are just looking for something to be offended by, instead of pointing out an actual issue. Men can be the victim of rape as well, although this generally happens to them at very young age and less so at mature age. Additionally, I see no reason to ignore the context. If the word rape is used to describe a situation, in which one player completely destroys the other player, then what is wrong with that? It is just a game after all, and not real rape.
With the "correct" point of view, anything can be understood as hostile and offensive to anything. Having this attitude does not help to fix the real problems, and only distracts from them.
Not surr if its been said. Generally though casters or commentators of sports come from that sport or other sporting backgrounds. If you want more female casters. We are gonna need mote successful female progamers that have the merits to be casting.
There aren't many women casters in any sport. People don't have the right to free jobs because of their gender. If 99% of would-be sports casters are men, don't be surprised if you get a distribution of 99% male sports casters.
It could be because almost no females are interessted in sc2 compared to how many males are, if we look at deep dedication for the game there are even less females and i belive that dedication should be mandatory for a caster, though the male crowd likes female voices so mabie we will have a proffesional female caster in the future.
There are not many women in the SC2 scene, in any capacity. It is a male-dominated environment.
The demographics of the scene tend to be young males who are either caucasian or asian. If you look at the crowd scenes in any major SC2 LAN then you will see that this is universally the case. This is also reflected in the casters and pro-gamers. The scene could probably be more welcoming to other demographics.
SC2 is not a computer game that really appeals to most females. It is by nature a war game and not really marketed towards females. I am curious whether HoTS had a higher percentage of female buyers compared to WoL, due to the main protagonist Kerrigan being a female. Starcraft is a game about macho marines fighting a space war and creepy bug-like aliens. Such concepts seem more prone to appeal to men rather than women. Warhammer 40K has similar concepts and a similar male-dominated fanbase.
I think there are increasingly more women playing games and this is a good thing, but I do still think that they generally tend to prefer RPG's such as The Last of Us rather than war games or RTS games like SC2 or COD. I think games such as the Last of Us or Mass Effect series show that games can appeal to women a great deal. SC2, FIFA and COD will always be male dominated games simply due to the nature of these games holding more appeal to men.
I think the lack of female casters is a consequence of SC2 being a game that attracts mainly males. Obviously you could change the game to appeal to females more, but then it would be a different game entirely.
On July 28 2013 21:58 Salient wrote: Most women don't like hardcore games like Starcraft or competitive FPS. I don't know why. It could be cultural or biological, or both. It doesn't really matter why. The fact is most chicks don't dig this sort of thing.
This. I think it's biological, women simply don't enjoy measuring the lenght of their penis like we do.
My favorite post of today, well done.
Probably fairly accurate as well, I really wouldn't be surprised.
On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote: They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote: Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
That's like saying ''He is black but asks us to consider him white. Skin colour doesen't matter.''
It does matter. I will call her female, because I got respect for her, but when talking conrecetely about gender, I will admit, that Scarlett has an Y chromosome.
Actually, her gender is concretely female. Gender is fluid and not determined by biological sex, which also means any conversation about chromosomes is pointless.
Part of it has to be a numbers game - there are just way more men in the SC2 scene than women.
Second, when you read some of the comments in this thread, reddit, or anywhere else, it is hard to imagine why any woman would want to be in this scene. I mean, this scene can treat up-and-coming casters pretty terrible, just imagine how much worse it would be if they were female. They wouldn't have time to develop an incredibly thick skin - they would need to start with one along with a lot of willpower and confidence. I think it'd be great if there were female casters, but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to enter that arena when this community is the way it is.
As a general point, yes, the problem is a smaller female fanbase. But that is not really the issue. It's that we don't present a welcoming face to women who like games. Yes, even with perfect equality, the ratio will probably be skewed. But don't pretend we're there yet. We aren't even close, and this thread is testimony to that fact.
On July 28 2013 22:10 Yoav wrote:And even Day[9], whom my girlfriend loves to watch and discuss, does occasionally use language (e.g. "rape") that can be understood as hostile to women.
Although sexism is a very bad thing, if people believe the word "rape" is hostile to women, then they are truly exaggerating. Then we are just looking for something to be offended by, instead of pointing out an actual issue. Men can be the victim of rape as well, although this generally happens to them at very young age and less so at mature age. Additionally, I see no reason to ignore the context. If the word rape is used to describe a situation, in which one player completely destroys the other player, then what is wrong with that? It is just a game after all, and not real rape.
With the "correct" point of view, anything can be understood as hostile and offensive to anything. Having this attitude does not help to fix the real problems, and only distracts from them.
And this is the problem. You're deflecting the issue and failing to understand that in emotional contexts, emotional reactions are relevant. If you're trying to present a good face to Rwandans, don't joke about genocide. If you're trying to welcome women, you don't joke about rape. If you're trying to appeal to Roman legionaries, don't use the word "decimate." Saying that genocides don't just happen to Rwandans is missing the point. Rape is an offensive term in the usage of "completely destroy," especially in terms of the valuation implicit (good/honorable to rape, bad/dishonorable to be raped). Language is powerful, and you have to think about the terms you use if you mean to present a good face to the world.
On July 28 2013 21:19 faderedguy wrote: Well, there's one right now in fact, casting sea masters cup on twitch at basetradetv lol @zepphsc2 is the female caster I believe
Yep, and the twitch chat unfortunately has a lot of examples of the aforementioned sexist stuff. She is actually pretty decent as a caster, nothing spectacular certainly, but solid casting all around.
Basetradetv's chat mostly in jest, no real sexism like in other chats to be honest, but if you feel like that, ok.
Not an sc2 caster though, I believe she used to do a lot of CS and now she casts WoT. Works for ESL/Turtle Entertainment
Pansy is pretty cool; CS, WoT, CoD and she plays a lot herself as well.
But really, having not read all comments, there's a couple of womenfolk that come to mind that I've watched casting (@Eleine_Sun @Cheesemuffinish but they don't cast anymore), but I feel they didn't really fancy dedicating themselves to 1 game, or never really prioritized casting over other things in life. Currently I only know @zepphsc2 and @ZGGaming for SC2. I think at one point Soë cast sc2 games as well, right? Yeah and @maddelisk edit: oh and @LivinpinkSC2 casts in french sometimes, I think? (edit: and that Becci girl I guess from Mori's german stream, but I haven't heard her myself)
I think the main thing about SC2 casting is that you need a lot of stamina and ability to not get tired after hours and hours of casting, it might just start feeling like a chore. So, if I had to take a guess, is that someone needs to somehow introduce a more fun and playful way of casting a tournament that not just consists of talking about the games. Although I'm not exactly sure how that would look like, maybe with a lot more interaction with people or custom games than normal...
You can't really quote that study and say it applies to starcraft, for all we know it probably counts games as farmville. Though you can look at other other "similair" games like lol or wow, wow had 10% where as lol had something like less than 10%, just because females play games doesn't mean they play the same games.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
You seem to have a stick up your ass about an issue that doesn't exist. In fact didn't Seltzer post before that being a woman *helped* her get into eSports?
There were statistics posted before that men made up the overwhelmingly large majority of StarCraft 2 players. Quite simply there are just more men interested in the game, who are likely to become pros or casters. Or are you also saying sexism prevents women from actually playing the game too?
Casting should be left to the best people. Not to someone who has boobs or has abs. As much as I would like my casting experience filled with a montage from the YMCA I think listening to Artosis and Tasteless is just as good.
The NFL now has 33% female viewership. Its a boys game and boys world sadly and while there is fewer canidates to cast, I doubt many have been given the equal opportunity that their male counterparts has.
Just google "female sports casters" and you see what the problem is. Everything around females in the media is based around looks. While its never the case for male. Thats the big problem.
I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me
It's odd, but it's not concerning. If there are few women who want to go in to proffesional esports commenating they shouldn't get a free ride to the top purely because they're a woman. There's two women in Korea who cast both Proleague and GSL and they do fine.
Women/Men don't need to have equality in every single sector of human life. If there's no women going for a job for example, why should we force a women into a position?
I support this outlook. Same with every other job out there - the job goes to the most qualified APPLICANT. They must apply first. For example, in the police in my region, it's largely dominated by white males simply because that's 90% of the applicant demographic. That doesn't mean that other races/genders are less qualified, it means they haven't applied or aren't interested. Arms are wide open for them, and when they do, they'll be evaluated at the same level as everyone else - do they meet the expectations of the employer? If they do, great, welcome aboard!
The place for encouragement is in a friend you may know who wants to do it, but is holding themselves back because of wrong mentality - this is where it would be appropriate to jump in and push them, encourage them, get them to take themselves further Goes for both men and women alike. That's just being a good friend.
I'd assume the male to female player ratio is about 9:1 male. In the professional level it's probably even higher. Therefore it just makes sense that almost all casters are male.
I honestly don't care either way though, I just want the best casters possible, regardless of gender.
Lots of casters are former players, not all of them, but that is a good way to gain entry into casting. The only female casters I know are Soe, and ZombieGrub. Soe usually plays the host/interviewer role though, but she has great game knowledge. As for ZombieGrub I have seen her cast more small stuff mostly, but she is getting bigger stuff, she was one of the casters at the last MLG. She casted from her home, but I tuned in if she had a match I wanted to watch. So to conclude, we don't have that many female players, so I would say it is simply the fact we don't have a lot female casters because of that, because pretty much everyone who casts plays the game and loves the game.
I think any woman who follows ESPORTS will have noticed how kellyMILKIES was attacked in this community, back when she casted GSL. Yes, she wasn't a GSL level caster, but the shitstorm she received was insane, much worse than Moletrap, who wasn't liked by any more people than her, but he didn't pose for the playboy (or some similar magazine).
Having Seltzer as a hostess is already incredible, she must have one of the thickest skins in all of ESPORTS. I doubt another woman will want to be a caster in this community.
I think we have rather many female casters for the amount of women enjoying the game. And like people mentioned even had one in Code A for a short while. And if you visit threads from that time you know why it is a bit tougher for them to grab those spots (or if you just go through an LR where the host was a woman) The other thing is that there is the club of casters that is incredible hard to become part of. Don't know when people talked about this anymore (derailed pretty quickly and was a mostly nonsense anyway). But there was some truth in it, as in most main events just use the super popular casters. Think it got better though and we saw a few more casters rise to fame lately. So we might even see a female caster emerge that builds up a dynamic with some male casters. Because people love dual casters in sync the most.
On July 29 2013 00:14 nimbim wrote: I think any woman who follows ESPORTS will have noticed how kellyMILKIES was attacked in this community, back when she casted GSL. Yes, she wasn't a GSL level caster, but the shitstorm she received was insane, much worse than Moletrap, who wasn't liked by any more people than her, but he didn't pose for the playboy (or some similar magazine).
Having Seltzer as a hostess is already incredible, she must have one of the thickest skins in all of ESPORTS. I doubt another woman will want to be a caster in this community.
She didn't pose for some nudie mag. She posed for a Maxim gamer girl feature (iirc). It wasn't racy at all.
Zombiegrub is part of Clarity's casting crew and Soe still casts on occasion(though I think she also does dota stuff now), but the thing is most female personalities in the sc2 scene have switched to Dota/LoL over the past year and a half.
And OGN and GOM both have 1 female caster for proleague/gstl, and as stated before, there have been female casters for english gom casts.
On July 28 2013 20:35 Cirqueenflex wrote: if I am not misinformed, in about half an hour a "DeutschCast" will start (german cast, where you are not allowed to say anything in english, and if you do, there will be punishment. It is a fun event rarely done by Mori09 of the mystarcraft.de community and actually really hard, as not only the german language is influenced heavily by english, also for the game a ton of english vocabulary is used, from unit names over stuff like "cheese" and "snowballing" up to "expand", "natural", "game" and many more. This time the cast is only organized by Mori09, the ones doing the cast will be two austrians (yeah, the same country and accent as Monchi), one caster is "cRY" and the other one "Becci" from "Beccis Playground". She is a girl, and about to cast some SC2 action (and she is not the first woman to cast/cohost a cast alongside Mori). It is not like there would be no girl at all casting, but those who do cast do so for fun and only when they feel like, not for a year every evening out of their basement hoping to eventually get picked up by a big event.
Watching this atm: She is not a fantastic example of a knowledgeble female caster really. But I guess this is just for a laugh anyways.
If I encounter a female caster who is as knowledgeable as apollo or artosis or as entertaining as totalbiscuit I'd gladly listen to her. However... I know of no such person, nor do I believe such a person is currently in existence EDIT: Actually, Soe is pretty good, but not in the same league as the top top casters imo.
I've seem some and it's fine, but they should stick with the analytical part, every time i see a woman shout casting trying to mimic that tobi/tasteless caveman style i just laugh my ass off.
There's a couple decent female casters in DotA. Sheever isn't great, but she's at least as good as Blaze or Vykromond or LysanderXonora; and Meruna doesn't cast very often but when she has I thought she was really good at it. That being said its obviously a small number, and there may be decent casters who get pushed out of the industry by the "fans" who are complete pricks. I can't remember her name but joindotA had a female caster (Diamond?) who was pretty bad, but the fans treated her in an absolutely disgusting manager. I haven't heard from her since.
On July 29 2013 01:08 Witten wrote: I can't remember her name but joindotA had a female caster (Diamond?) who was pretty bad, but the fans treated her in an absolutely disgusting manager. I haven't heard from her since.
To be honest, dota fans act like that to anyone who suck the slightly. Triumph also gets insane amounts of hate, Lumi, ayesse, even tobiwan.
On July 29 2013 00:14 nimbim wrote: I think any woman who follows ESPORTS will have noticed how kellyMILKIES was attacked in this community, back when she casted GSL. Yes, she wasn't a GSL level caster, but the shitstorm she received was insane, much worse than Moletrap, who wasn't liked by any more people than her, but he didn't pose for the playboy (or some similar magazine).
Having Seltzer as a hostess is already incredible, she must have one of the thickest skins in all of ESPORTS. I doubt another woman will want to be a caster in this community.
Maxim isn't Playboy and that's a pretty bad example. She should have never been hired in the first place and the fault rests on GOM not so much her. It's not much of a deterrent compared to everything else they would have to deal with and I see many women doing just fine. From Soe, Anna, Rachelle, Susie, Sjokz, Smix, Sheever, etc. The list goes on. No matter what you will have to deal with some bullshit along the way whether you stream, post, etc. It comes with the territory. Likewise, regardless of your gender you will be targeted no matter what. We hear casters say a lot of dumb things and they're called out on it regularly. They just don't have to deal with the sexiest and other immature comments. You learn very early on to block that crap out because it is irrelevant.
On July 29 2013 01:33 adius wrote: Men choose unhealthy, antisocial hobby, act surprised when women steer clear of them
You sir, are getting it completely wrong. Generalizing things to men/women is just BS, because that tends to prevent people from doing things they enjoy (women doing "men" things, men doing "women" things).
Not even noting "unealthy", "antisocial" as qualifiers for esports, which is incredibly wrong (haha, Nada's body !)
Every so often we have threads or blogs that come up discussing 'women in gaming' and it always is the same response. 'Why aren't more women playing SC2' and 'why aren't more women casting SC2' are going to have the same responses (not a big population in SC2, much less so in those willing to dedicate time to SC2, sexism etc etc), except that CASTING is even worse because you not only have to have good knowledge, you have to be able to talk well and get that knowledge through. Oh, and those who get by with not mentioning they're female to avoid the sexism/hatred/general unpleasantness that might arise? That's kind of thrown out the window when you talk.
And I wouldn't try bringing up 'but they could be play-by-play if they have a good voice!' because we all know if the girl isn't masters, people are going to call her an attention whore, no matter how good her play-by-play is.
Since you honestly asked how you could find more, however, the ones that are worth it are usually going to be found like finding a good male up-and-comer, because they won't tweet 'GIRL CASTIN XOXO'. So pretty much a) by chance and b) you are actively searching for a new caster to like. But already some people have mentioned good ones here, so. Personally, I'd suggest Zepph, who might've been who you heard on basetrade.
The longer you keep this "women should be entitled to 50% representation in everything" the longer the bias regarding their talent and credibility will remain.
All I want is good casters, regardless of gender. The casters with a real passion for the game will navigate beyond the flames and difficulties and make a name for themselves.
I think female gamers tend to be less hardcore than guys too. My sister and Mom both qualify as "gamers", but they mostly play iPhone games and Mario Party and stuff like that. Games like Starcraft, which are much more competitive, fast paced, and with a lot of room for error tend to only attract dedicated gamers, and the fellas are definitely in larger number in that group
On July 29 2013 01:48 AeroGear wrote: The longer you keep this "women should be entitled to 50% representation in everything" the longer the bias regarding their talent and credibility will remain.
All I want is good casters, regardless of gender. The casters with a real passion for the game will navigate beyond the flames and difficulties and make a name for themselves.
The issue isn't that we don't have 50/50, it's that women may not be able to access caster positions.
"Beyond the flames and difficulties" : These are waaay bigger for women than for men. The aim is that this difference go.
It's unfortunate that Kelly started things off. You can have all the game knowledge in the world, but it doesn't work if people can't understand what the caster is saying.
On July 29 2013 01:48 AeroGear wrote: The longer you keep this "women should be entitled to 50% representation in everything" the longer the bias regarding their talent and credibility will remain.
All I want is good casters, regardless of gender. The casters with a real passion for the game will navigate beyond the flames and difficulties and make a name for themselves.
The issue isn't that we don't have 50/50, it's that women may not be able to access caster positions.
"Beyond the flames and difficulties" : These are waaay bigger for women than for men. The aim is that this difference go.
Women also find it considerably easier to get positions in eSports thanks to their gender, including even becoming "professionals" despite being relatively bad. Let's not pretend this is a one way street.
And, from the Dota community, Sheever gets no more shit than someone like Lumi. I don't really see anything that shows women in the public eye of eSports get more flames than men.
On July 29 2013 02:29 SiNKami wrote: In the fighting game and league of legends scene. Not sure of too many females that would be hype enough to cast sc2.
The FGC is 10x more hype than SC2 casting and they had Jessica Nigri casting for them
Most casters are bad. The fact that there are so few females in the scene makes it a lot harder to find a good female caster.
Personally, I think Zombiegrub is pretty good. She doesn't have a voice that will attract a bunch of casuals like Totalbiscuit does, but she knows a lot about the game and all of the players, which sadly is something most casters lack.
On July 29 2013 00:14 nimbim wrote: I think any woman who follows ESPORTS will have noticed how kellyMILKIES was attacked in this community, back when she casted GSL. Yes, she wasn't a GSL level caster, but the shitstorm she received was insane, much worse than Moletrap, who wasn't liked by any more people than her, but he didn't pose for the playboy (or some similar magazine).
Having Seltzer as a hostess is already incredible, she must have one of the thickest skins in all of ESPORTS. I doubt another woman will want to be a caster in this community.
Yeah, at first I didn't pay attention to the Kelly hate because I genuinely thought she was an awful caster and ruined my enjoyment of the GSL, and if the anger caused her to quit and give us better casters, well that was justified. But there just hasn't been any level of vitriol toward the bad male casters, some of whom, like Moletrap/SNM, are even worse than kelly was. And what anger there is toward the guys, is to do with casting ability, not blanket sexist statements and personal attacks like how it was with Kelly.
I do think GomTV should try to get another woman casting in English. I wish Seltzer would cast; she's very funny, and imagining her with the Wolfdor team would be a really entertaining cast. Whenever I listen to the Korean trio cast in the past, they would just sound so much more lively.
There aren't enough casters overall that do a good job of actually telling people more than what's braindead obvious and on the screen...that factor plus the male:female ratio in eSports leads to this situation.
Besides, a female caster telling me that "a timing attack could happen sometime between 10-20 minutes!" isn't any more depressing than Apollo/Kaelaris telling me the same.
I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
I really wouldn't mind female casters being asked to join the scene if they have the talent to speak articulately (that being the only qualification). Experience will come with.. well.. experience. It would be a nice vibrant change. I hope this doesn't turn into a whole gender equality debate. I, along with many other men I'm sure, would just not mind the sweet face and voice of women.
And no, I am not objectifying women, I just actually enjoy their appearance and sounds more than men. I'm allowed to have a preference.
On July 29 2013 03:43 DeathProfessor wrote: I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
Quite convinced that the chromosome stuff from the OP was a flamebait attempt. Don't respond to that guys, only bans await you :D Edit: He edited, maybe honest mistake :O
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
On July 29 2013 03:43 DeathProfessor wrote: I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
My dream is that SOE cast! Please do it SOE!
Huh? What do you mean with that?
I'm curious as well, doesn't seem to have much merit to me.
The korean proleague stream has a female caster often. I just haven't seen many female casters beyond that though... I can name more female players than female casters.
On July 29 2013 03:43 DeathProfessor wrote: I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
My dream is that SOE cast! Please do it SOE!
Actually, didn't soe cast WCS some last year with Grubby and Kaelaris? Not hte finals anywhere but the national events that they went all over doing.
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote: How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
In soccer there's Gabby Logan. In tennis Sue Barker, Lindsay Davenport and a couple of others. Being a Brit I don't know about NFL or NBA, and I agree that most sports have more male commentators than women, but the complete lack of any prominent women casting major events seems odd. Also, while we're on the topic, the most prominent horse racing commentator/pundit in the UK is probably Claire Balding.
Gabby Logan and Sue Barker are presenters / studio hosts on their respective football and tennis programmes (interviewing players post-match and generally joining up the various parts of the show), they are not match commentators.
If you want an equivalent in starcraft 2, I'm pretty sure Anna Prosser/Robinson and Rachel Seltzer have both been host (hostess?) at various starcraft 2 events in the past.
Male dominated sports generally have male dominated commentary also, again because many commentators are ex-professional players (both in starcraft and in other sports) and therefore have the expertise to talk about matches in a way pleasing to their audiences.
Until you have more women competing at a competitive level in SC2, I wouldn't expect to see a higher number of women commentators.
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
I think there are a lot of reasons why you don't see many female sc2 casters. First being that it is hard to get into and hone your skills. While the male casters starting out have to deal with all the hate from trolls female casters get targeted not only for their lack of experience but also for their looks, clothing etc... I think because the community is as young as it is and being more male heavy, that some of the younger members of the community, haven't learned socially how to reasonably interact with the opposite sex. Female casters are torn down into sex objects constantly. Even if a lot of it comes from trolls and creepers it can be a lot to deal with. especially from a young casters point of view where you often have to filter community interaction by yourself. It's not like you just get chat admins right away. If you don't interact with the community you can't get feedback as fast and you are seen as standoffish or don't care. There are plenty of up and coming male casters who can't make it through all the trolls who don't have to worry about creepers as well.
The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Although some nerds may misconsider it as this.
The answer is: Men and women are different. Deal with it. Everyone with a normal social life and serious relationship experience will agree with me.
So men and women have different interests (by trend). And women just don't have the drive to give up their lives and become the best in a strategy game. That's it. I'm not saying they are worse than men. Thats mostly bs. But they have less interest in strategy games and a different self-perception, so less the drive to show everyone they are the best. And that's the requirement to get to the top in SC2.
In other games you can see a growing number of female players, such as RPGs, MMOs, even Shooters and Mobas. So women also like games´, sure. But not the hardcore strategy games (another example: chess). And even if there are some good female players, they just don't have the drive to give up their life to become *the best*. They want to persuate different goals in life than the normal male nerd.
And no high tier players = no casters. As easy as that.
It's not about better and worse, it's about *different* Cheers.
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
Gender discrimination is a minor thing at best; most females simply don't want to be involved in something like hardcore competitive gaming because they are literally biologically not inclined towards competitive gaming. Females in general are just not competitive; it's a fact. Why else do you think men aggressively pursue high level jobs like CEO positions? It's not because there is any real intellectual/skill difference between men and women; it's because there's just simply a biological difference between the two.
And no, I didn't make this shit up. Various studies prove that women tend to shy away from competition in general, which of course means that most women don't really like playing competitive games, and would rather play social type games. Why else do you think games like World of Warcraft, Non-Ranked League of Legends, and other MMOs/social games are so popular among women?
For those who don't believe me, here's a study of competition and gender and how the two are related.
Yes, women will have to deal with some gender discrimination when you enter into a male dominant territory. It comes with the profession/job; it's bad, but that's just how it is, especially if you join a community that is predominantly made up of males that are anywhere from the ages of 15-30.
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
What?
Right. What?
I said denying it has anything to do with sexism is delusional. I didn't say what you thought I said, at all.
To anyone who wants to pick a fight with me, I'd rather not because it doesn't contribute much to the thread imo. If you think I'm a complete bonehead, please double check in a PM first.
@startran: I'm more or less with you (and the guy above who I originally cautioned) about sex/gender differences. I'm mostly commenting on discourse. As you can see there are lots of uninformed people ready to jump at propositions antagonizing them that aren't being offered.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
seriously what? maddelisk did a good job so what? moletrap did a good job too and look what happened to him.
its completely laughable that you think the solution to a lack of female casters is just to get more women talking (because we NEED! them). you're literally putting them up to get shit on because they dont have the following/skill/influence required to do it then you turn around and blame everyone else for being misogynistic.
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
What?
Right. What?
I said denying it has anything to do with sexism is delusional. I didn't say what you thought I said, at all.
How is it delusional?
There is nothing to suggest lack of female casters has anything to do with sexism. The demographic easily and simply explains things. What point are you trying to make?
I fear that Esports thinks that women will attract people to the croud if they are out "on the field" and not in the casting booth, so I guess it will take time untill we will have female casters in primier events. I will be happy to listen to a female caster duo with a male or even another female, it will be really cool and will add variety to casting. We do have the casters that are connected to the companies (tastosis=gom, Axslav+Axeltoss=mlg etc.) so seeing those companies add female casters will give a change, but it will have to be this revolutionary move.
Isn't there a (rather nice looking) Korean caster who is a woman?
By the way, female does sound kind of shitty, saying "woman" or "lady" just sounds better. Please change thread title to "why are there no lady casters?"
On July 28 2013 18:55 Waxangel wrote: can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
Neckbeards.
Women in sports reporting are becoming less and less marginalized, but for esports specifically, its probably more related to the same reason there are few women who are progamers than some sort of bigotry conspiracy or good ol boys club.
On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote: So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"...
Strawman: The esport-world at all level is not remotely close to 50/50... so it is quite 'logical' that the caster and pro-player population reflect the composition of the user base....
What is the male female ratio on ladder ? in master ? in grand-master ? [ note the ladder group a purely on merit, the ladder ranking algorithm does not _know_ your gender ]. Sure anyone that dedicate themselves to become good a SC2 can reach master, regardless of gender... or at the very least there is no reason that a given random sample of men and women would not reach the same ladder level distribute, given the _same_ amount of work/training.
But it is a fallacy to claim that because the 'world' at large is 50/50 male/female therefore we should observe the same 50/50 composition in any self-selected subset of the world.
Please watch the excellent Norwegian documentary on the topic:
Some things are more attractive to men and some more attractive to women. Deal with it and if you find the lack of women problematic you should think a little more about the important question of "Are men and women the same?" which isnt the same as "Should they be treated equally in society?". First question gets a NO and the second a YES from me, but if you think about that you have to accept that there are differences between the sexes and that is a good thing! It would be a terribly boring life if we were all the same and liked and disliked the same stuff.
Long live "the difference" ... because globalization and misguided equality enforcement will make us all "the same" sooner or later in a few decades. Coca Cola, McDonalds and american TV shows are a first bad sign for things to come.
If a woman has the enthusiasm and talent to cast Starcraft she can and should do so, but pushing them into doing so just because the nerds here dont get to listen to a girl talking otherwise is a bad thing. Not having any women in the scene is NOT a sign of sexism ... they just arent interested in that type of a hobby.
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
You say that the bolded part is overt sexism, but present no argument as to why. It's really not obvious to me. Care to explain why saying someone tried to achieve popularity by other means than by doing their job is sexist?
Yelling is not going to make your point more valid.
We are not talking about 'gaming', but the subset of gaming that is e-sport, and more particularity SC2, a real-time strategy game... not all game genre get the same gender participation ratio...
Otherwise we could as well look at 'caster' in the wider context of on-air personalities, and count Oprah, Helene DeGeneris, the View etc... in the numbers....
The article you reference, and especially the assocaited reference are worth reading too... for instance the same sale survey says that there are 37% of 36+ years old player... where are the 37+ years old caster ? or pro-players ? <rethorical>is e-sport suffering from ageism ?</rethorical>
On July 29 2013 01:31 BisuDagger wrote: We have zombiegrub and she's awesome.
This!
The pragmatic answer to the question of the OP is that it's a numbers game, and while there is obvious sexism latent or otherwise in this and other gaming communities, I wouldn't say that is the leading factor here, and it is not nearly universal within those communities. I can't think of a single high-profile production team from the SC2 community that would pass up a qualified and talented female caster due to overt sexism. (This is just a passing guess of course based on my own impressions.)
Personally I am dissatisfied by most casters' game knowledge anyway (or at least their presentation in the form of proclamations), so I say fuck it and I'd rather have fun people who are passionate and well-spoken with some respectable level of game knowledge who just call the basics and the maybes, since true expertise is very scarce.
On July 29 2013 03:56 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote: Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Scarlett has a Y chromosome though, technically. ontopic: We did have female casters in sc2, but they were "bullied" out by the community. For example we had kellymilkies, and the amount of HARSH criticism she endured was severe so it doesn't surprise me that we don't have more female casters. In dota there is sheever, but she also receives heavy critique. I kind of like sheever though since she tries to be popular not through being female but through being good(which can be argued about if she is or not.) unlike kellymilkies that did a lingerie photoshoot and what not.
You realize that this is overt sexism? What does it matter what someone chooses to wear?
It doesn't to you, but it's obvious a community will judge the person based on what they wear. They are figure heads and if they choose to do certain stuff such as dress in lingerie then it's obvious it will have negative or positive effects, even though you in particular are not sexist? The community will always look for negative points to bring up and we've had witch hunts for far less than dressing in lingerie, and it's not like I'm sexist; this has already happened and you don't see kellymilkies around casting do you? Not saying it was due to the photoshoot but her casting being disliked in general, but the photoshoot sure fueled the haters further.
What you wrote specifically implied that kellymilkies intentionally tried to prove her worth by posing in sexy photos as opposed to mastering the game, when the two are not related. I understand what you apparently meant to say but it could have been phrased much better.
On July 29 2013 04:52 Caladan wrote: The answer is simple, and has nothing to do with sexism. Cheers.
To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
You say that the bolded part is overt sexism, but present no argument as to why. It's really not obvious to me. Care to explain why saying someone tried to achieve popularity by other means than by doing their job is sexist?
You may be right. I read it as saying that kellymilkies was wrong in what she did because she's a woman. I suppose that wasn't necessarily the intended meaning, though it seems strongly implied in the context. (From the fact that typically only women pose in lingerie in magazines.)
On July 29 2013 04:58 EatThePath wrote: To say this is to paper over a serious social problem. While it might not be at the forefront for the particular question under consideration, absolutist denial is delusional and possibly harmful.
How is women not being interested in eSports (by and large, blahblahblah) "a serious social problem"?
What?
Right. What?
I said denying it has anything to do with sexism is delusional. I didn't say what you thought I said, at all.
How is it delusional?
There is nothing to suggest lack of female casters has anything to do with sexism. The demographic easily and simply explains things. What point are you trying to make?
I'm trying to make the point that denying sexism has any effect on women in our community is ridiculous, especially when the person making the claim seems to realize this.
If you read my earlier posts, you must have seen I already acknowledged demographics.
On July 28 2013 18:55 Waxangel wrote: can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
Sorry if I am ignorant here, but could you explain why it matters? "Female/male casters" just sounds better to me than "women/men casters". The latter just feels awkward to say but maybe that's just me.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Women in this scene don't get harassed any more than the men do. There's negative comments about basically everyone, you are simply not holding these comments to the same standards and view criticism of women as inherently sexist.
How many women actually play SC2? I keep hearing that women make up roughly 40-50% of the gaming market, yet you never run into them online while playing. I think they're counting casual female gamers into that figure, which is why we don't see them in the community. You can't have female casters when there are hardly any females in the community to begin with. We're making a mountain out of a molehill here.
On July 29 2013 06:56 Havik_ wrote: How many women actually play SC2? I keep hearing that women make up roughly 40-50% of the gaming market, yet you never run into them online while playing. I think they're counting casual female gamers into that figure, which is why we don't see them in the community. You can't have female casters when there are hardly any females in the community to begin with. We're making a mountain out of a molehill here.
Most games that are women don't advertise their presence specifically to avoid the typical negative attention that they get. You probably play a good amount of them on the ladder and never know it.
On July 28 2013 23:46 Yoav wrote: And this is the problem. You're deflecting the issue and failing to understand that in emotional contexts, emotional reactions are relevant.
To you maybe... but what make _your_ perception of what is important something that you can legitimely _make_ the rest of the world care about ?
If you're trying to present a good face to Rwandans, don't joke about genocide. If you're trying to welcome women, you don't joke about rape.
That is the point. who says that he is trying ? maybe he jsut care about SC@ and not so much about 'Politically Correct' discourse ? By your argument, one should not organized competition on the Sabbath because that is not welcoming of religious player. One should not have a 'Zerg' race, since its very core concept is an insult to people that deny evolution (about 1/3 of the US population)
Language is powerful, and you have to think about the terms you use if you mean to present a good face to the world.
And your solution is censure ? ... and of course lobby to impose it to the rest of the world... Did it ever crossed you mind that the notion of 'censure' is just as abhorrent to some people than the notion of you are decrying? (turning 'censure' as a good thing, just like you claim that 'rape' in the context of a massive victory allegedly glorify rape)... so your own guiding principle only apply to the concept/notion _you_ care about ?
On July 29 2013 04:38 OpTiKAiTech wrote: I saw Soe cast a few times. She doesn't do a whole lot of Sc2 though, which is a shame since her casting is pretty decent.
Actually I remember seeing her casting as well, can't remember the event though. I think she handled the casting really well, wouldn't mind seeing more of her.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Riddle me this. If women have it so much harder than men, how come that Rachel or Smix got invited to host one of the biggest tournaments in the scene, over many, many males. Look at someone like Nathanias or Chanman, these guys are putting alot more work and they aren't half as famous as either of the two. Nathanias has casted 1 big tournament despite working, sometimes, 12 hours a day or even more than that. Look at Tara Babcock, she's in Gold or Platinum league and sometimes gets 2000 concurrent viewers on her stream, name a single player (with perhaps the exception of TB) who gets that many viewers who is not top grandmaster or a top personality such as Artosis. Right, there is nobody.
If you are willing to reap the benefits of being female and be more popular than any male who has put in the same amount of effort as you, you better be prepared to accept that there will be jealousy. It is actually incredibly easy for female starcraft players to get a job in this industry or have a large viewer base, much easier than it is for any male.
So can we stop this bullshit? Look at Anna, Rachel, Smix, Tara Babcock, etc... let's not delude ourselves into thinking that they somehow bring more to the table than many of the males (which are a vast majority in SC2) who are trying to do the same thing or applying for the same jobs.
It is so dishonest to argue that women have it harder in this industry, because the few who actually tried, made it with alot less effort than some of the people who worked their asses off to get to where they are now (Artosis, chanman, Nathanias, to name a few) and who took alot more risks and some of these male personalities such as Nathanias or Chanman, are still less popular than Anna or Rachel, despite putting in alot more effort.
edit: Or hell, look at aluj or QueenE, they both got interviews on the main stream of the respective tournaments they participated in, despite losing in the first or second round of the tournament. NO MALE who didn't win the tournament ever got this much exposure on stream and the only reason they were featured on stream was the fact that they are female.
So how could you possibly argue that they have it harder in this community, when the only requirement for them to get featured on stream is to play... not even win... just play in a freaking tournament.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Smells like bullshit to me. If you were an older dude showing up to a Justin Beiber concert, you better be with a friend/girlfriend/daughter/sister/etc. or people are going to think you're some weird ass dude trying to creep on girls between the ages of 12-18ish. If you don't match the general demographic of the area, you're going to get more attention, negative/positive it doesn't matter. It comes with the territory, and if you can't handle it, well too bad, world sucks and it is unfair. I am all for being treated equally, but sometimes common sense dictates that if you're doing shit that may seem out of place, you cannot fault people for giving you extra attention.
It's the same thing in E-Sports. If you are a female that is pretty good at what she does, you're going to get extra attention. Scarlett for example is an excellent player, but by far gets way more attention than alot of players just as good as she is just because she is a female and she is able to compete vs some elite level competition.
On July 29 2013 05:05 SlixSC wrote: Maybe we should force more men to go to Justin Bieber concerts because clearly, there is a disproportionate amount of females there. Which is clearly the result of men being oppressed by the Justin Bieber Fancommunity and not just the result of men not giving a crap about Justin Bieber.
Now replace men with women and Just Bieber with starcraft (tournaments) and you should see why OP's argument just doesn't fly.
Precisely! Touche'. Best comment so far. Ragnarork - this is all we're trying to say. Its got nothing to do with sexism or gender. Its a simple numbers game...so keep calm and carry on.
BTW, Tara Babcock isn't helping the womens movement in esports, just saying.
That's a strawman argument and doesn't address anything of note. If you were a guy and wanted to go to a Bieber concert, no one's going to stop you. If you're a girl and get involved in Starcraft, more than likely you will be harassed. The thing with Starcraft is that there are many women who like to play / watch, but the sexism in the community often overshadows them and makes it difficult for them to break into casting / hosting jobs. The community reactions whenever Selzter or Anna, or Scarlett/Aphrodite/Eve, whoever comes up in discussion veers off on a sexist tangent that doesn't happen when the person in question is a guy.
Riddle me this. If women have it so much harder than men, how come that Rachel or Smix got invited to host one of the biggest tournaments in the scene, over many, many males. Look at someone like Nathanias or Chanman, these guys are putting alot more work and they aren't half as famous as either of the two. Nathanias has casted 1 big tournament despite working, sometimes, 12 hours a day or even more than that. Look at Tara Babcock, she's in Gold or Platinum league and sometimes gets 2000 concurrent viewers on her stream, name a single player (with perhaps the exception of TB) who gets that many viewers who is not top grandmaster or a top personality such as Artosis. Right, there is nobody.
If you are willing to reap the benefits of being female and be more popular than any male who has put in the same amount of effort as you, you better be prepared to accept that there will be jealousy. It is actually incredibly easy for female starcraft players to get a job in this industry or have a large viewer base, much easier than it is for any male.
So can we stop this bullshit? Look at Anna, Rachel, Smix, Tara Babcock, etc... let's not delude ourselves into thinking that they somehow bring more to the table than many of the males (which are a vast majority in SC2) who are trying to do the same thing or applying for the same jobs.
It is so dishonest to argue that women have it harder in this industry, because the few who actually tried, made it with alot less effort than some of the people who worked their asses off to get to where they are now (Artosis, chanman, Nathanias, to name a few) and who took alot more risks and some of these male personalities such as Nathanias or Chanman, are still less popular than Anna or Rachel, despite putting in alot more effort.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree. In addition, I can't stand all the white knighting that goes on in this community (and every male dominated community in anything) once women get involved. People go on Tara Babcock's stream and say shit like "nice tits," or "ur hot," and other BS that any moderately attractive woman hears 100 times a day. You're not original by saying that crap!
On July 29 2013 00:14 nimbim wrote: I think any woman who follows ESPORTS will have noticed how kellyMILKIES was attacked in this community, back when she casted GSL. Yes, she wasn't a GSL level caster, but the shitstorm she received was insane, much worse than Moletrap, who wasn't liked by any more people than her, but he didn't pose for the playboy (or some similar magazine).
Having Seltzer as a hostess is already incredible, she must have one of the thickest skins in all of ESPORTS. I doubt another woman will want to be a caster in this community.
She didn't pose for some nudie mag. She posed for a Maxim gamer girl feature (iirc). It wasn't racy at all.
well we have sheever and that girl that appears with tobi wan every now and then (kindda don't know her name, but i know she exists) in dota 2, also in starcraft it's usually womem that do the post match interviews in tournaments
On July 29 2013 07:34 MotorDouglas wrote: well we have sheever and that girl that appears with tobi wan every now and then (kindda don't know her name, but i know she exists) in dota 2, also in starcraft it's usually womem that do the post match interviews in tournaments
I was about to mention her. I really don't like her cast and she is sometimes the only one streaming some games I want to watch. However she's slowly improving and I can bear her with a decent cocaster. I don't mute her anymore but I will still choose Russian stream if I have only two choices. I think she can become a decent caster if she keeps working on it.
While I don't care about the gender of the caster, I'd cringe at comments like "lul it's a grill casting omg I'm in luv :3333"
I care much more about the accent of the caster. I can't listen to Khaldor for more than 3 minutes. The same went for kellymilkies. The both of them pronounce stuff like "faucefeels" (forcefields) and it ruins the experience for me.
I am hesitant about the enhancement of female roles in gaming communities. Simply because I just can't stomach the amount of vile that comes out in chat rooms and youtube comments already for the female presence we currently have.
I wouldn't wish that kind of degrading abuse on anyone. I am still confused about the random female hate gaming communities continuously display the rare occasions we get females anywhere near the game.
Most of the times the criticism isn't even objective.
Wc3 had Jackzie, Bunny and KidArtica, at least the last two were really popular (Moreso than any male casters for quite a while) Gom sc1 had LilSusie But yea, after the Kelly Milkies bashing on TL, I don't think anyone really dares take up a casting position on visually broadcast games..
I don't know if we're mature enough for female casters lol. The twitch.tv chat is bad enough as it is when they see a girl on the audience, or when there's a female announces/interviewer.
The only exception is lanibot, because everyone seems to love her perky personality . I miss IPLs for that reason
On July 29 2013 07:55 KingAce wrote: I am hesitant about the enhancement of female roles in gaming communities. Simply because I just can't stomach the amount of vile that comes out in chat rooms and youtube comments already for the female presence we currently have.
I wouldn't wish that kind of degrading abuse on anyone. I am still confused about the random female hate gaming communities continuously display the rare occasions we get females anywhere near the game.
Most of the times the criticism isn't even objective.
There's alot of jealous that goes on because alot of females abuse the fact that they are simply of the opposite gender to attract viewers simply for money. And if you don't think this is true, then tune into Tara Babcocks stream. If you seriously think Tara doesn't get viewers simply based on her sex appeal, I really don't know what to tell you.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility.
And please don't white knight and say that the attention is unwarranted. You seriously think that these female streamers/personalities/etc. don't know that they are in a male dominant environment, and that they are going to get a ton of hate for no reason?
On July 29 2013 08:29 superstartran wrote: Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility.
If that's the case, then why are all the highest paid athletes in the world men? Why are salaries for sportsmen higher than sportswomen in every sport and at every level of these sports I can think of? Even sponsorship contracts are far more valuable for male stars than women.
On July 29 2013 08:06 Goolpsy wrote: Wc3 had Jackzie, Bunny and KidArtica, at least the last two were really popular (Moreso than any male casters for quite a while) Gom sc1 had LilSusie But yea, after the Kelly Milkies bashing on TL, I don't think anyone really dares take up a casting position on visually broadcast games..
KellyMilkies wasn't bashed for being a female. She was, however, criticized for her generally mediocre casting and diva personality. Actually, she had a large number of people coming to her defense because she was a female.
On July 29 2013 08:29 superstartran wrote: Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility.
If that's the case, then why are all the highest paid athletes in the world men? Why are salaries for sportsmen higher than sportswomen in every sport and at every level of these sports I can think of? Even sponsorship contracts are far more valuable for male stars than women.
This is not even remotely true at all.
Salaries for sportsmen are higher because they provide a better product. Compare a sport where the women are much closer to men in terms of equality; tennis is a perfect example of this. Roger Federer may be the highest paid athlete in tennis, but outside of him, most of the men in the top 30 or so make less than the women do. Sharapova to date since the beginning of 2013 has made something close to 30 million dollars, which tops what Nadal has made so far. Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Caroline Wozniaki, and plenty of other high profile female tennis players actually make far more than a vast majority of the big name ATP male tennis players do; in fact, I'm pretty quite a few make more just based on endorsements alone than Novak Djokovic and Murray do, both who are top 5 players currently.
Another example is this; Anna Kournikova. During her prime she was pulling in way more money than a vast majority of male professional athletes, even in the NFL/NBA/etc. where salaries are completely bloated. Why? Because she was considered 'hot and sexy.' So please don't say women don't use their sex appeal to their advantage in sports, because they do.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility.
that's not true with most professional sports or even life. nba vs wnba kobe bryant was paid 30,453,000 salary only vs wnba players can only be paid a max of 107,000 per year with a bonus cap of about 50,000. not even close. there are no female equivalents to baseball or american football either. in 2012 tiger woods banked 6,159,119 in winnings, the top lpga player banked 1,200,000. in tennis men's #1 Novak Djokovic earned 9.7 million euros, #1 Victoria Azarenka earned 6 million. let's not even mention soccer/football. even if you include endorsements the top female athletes aren't even close to making the same money. It's laughable that you even post something like that.
Another example is this; Anna Kournikova. During her prime she was pulling in way more money than a vast majority of male professional athletes, even in the NFL/NBA/etc. where salaries are completely bloated. Why? Because she was considered 'hot and sexy.' So please don't say women don't use their sex appeal to their advantage in sports, because they do.
Roger Federer made more in endorsements than anna K did. this arguement isn't even close. the average male vs female salary including endorsements isn't even close.
On July 28 2013 22:02 Za7oX wrote: The peak of female commentary was Kelly Milkies. She set such a high standard that others are afraid to follow her.
Please. There is no need to be a troll. This is not very funny, and you are knowingly just saying stuff to see people get upset. If you don't really care about the topic, or Kelly as a person, then maybe you should just stay away. At very please, just pause to consider how this post is going to reflect on you.
On topic -
The lack of female casters is, I think, a natural consequence of having fewer female gamers. Good casters need a good understanding of the game, and this usually comes from being able to play at some level of competency. If there aren't many female players, then there won't be many female casters.
There are many reasons for this - things like cultural expectations of girls, interests and so on. Personally I think a big stumbling block is the that the community seems to have serious problems in being able to treat women like normal human beings. This is immensely distracting to any female gamer trying to break into the competitive scene, and may even just plain out scare people away.
Edit: For example, I think it is lamentable that in this very thread, some people feel the need to make a kitchen joke. I mean even setting aside that it is sexist... it's so old at this point it is not even funny. But still...
It was a joke. And she wasn't very good at casting either. Cheer up buttercup :D
Another example is this; Anna Kournikova. During her prime she was pulling in way more money than a vast majority of male professional athletes, even in the NFL/NBA/etc. where salaries are completely bloated. Why? Because she was considered 'hot and sexy.' So please don't say women don't use their sex appeal to their advantage in sports, because they do.
Roger Federer made more in endorsements than anna K did. this arguement isn't even close. the average male vs female salary including endorsements isn't even close.
you're missing the point. some women have the ability to use sex appeal to push their earnings way higher than men for their respective skill level and i don't think anyone can disagree with that.
It's the same with all sports really, majority of casters are males, while presenters/hosts tend to be a mix of men and women. Seems to work pretty well for me.
you're missing the point. some women have the ability to use sex appeal to push their earnings way higher than men for their respective skill level and i don't think anyone can disagree with that.
1. men's Federer 9.3 mill winnings 45 mill endorsements 54.3 total 2. men's Nadal 7.4 winnings 25 endorsements 32.4 total 3. women's Maria Sharapova. winnings 5.1, endorsements 22, total 27.1 4. men's Djokovic winnings 10.3 endorsements 9.5, total 19.8 5. women's Li Na winnings 1.4 endorsements 17, total 18.4 6. women's S. Williams winnings 5.3 endorsements 11, total 16.3 7. women's Wozniacki winnings 2.7 endorsements 11, total 13.7 8. men's murray winnings 5 endorsements 7, total 12 9. women's Azarenka winnings 6.7 endorsements 3, total 9.7 10. men's Roddick winnings 0.8 endorsements 8, total 8.8 overall totals men winnings 32.8 endorsements 95.3 total 128.1 overall women's winnings 21.2 endorsements 64 total 85.2
looks like the men get more winnings and more endorsement money also anna K isn't even on the list. anything else you'd like to discuss?
Edit to clarify: the original point was made that women athletes on avg are making 3-5x more than male counterparts. This just isn't true if you look at avg or top earners, or avg or top endorsement deals.
you're missing the point. some women have the ability to use sex appeal to push their earnings way higher than men for their respective skill level and i don't think anyone can disagree with that.
1. men's Federer 9.3 mill winnings 45 mill endorsements 54.3 total 2. men's Nadal 7.4 winnings 25 endorsements 32.4 total 3. women's Maria Sharapova. winnings 5.1, endorsements 22, total 27.1 4. men's Djokovic winnings 10.3 endorsements 9.5, total 19.8 5. women's Li Na winnings 1.4 endorsements 17, total 18.4 6. women's S. Williams winnings 5.3 endorsements 11, total 16.3 7. women's Wozniacki winnings 2.7 endorsements 11, total 13.7 8. men's murray winnings 5 endorsements 7, total 12 9. women's Azarenka winnings 6.7 endorsements 3, total 9.7 10. men's Roddick winnings 0.8 endorsements 8, total 8.8 overall totals men winnings 32.8 endorsements 95.3 total 128.1 overall women's winnings 21.2 endorsements 64 total 85.2
looks like the men get more winnings and more endorsement money anything else you'd like to discuss?
Edit to clarify: the original point was made that women athletes on avg are making 3-5x more than male counterparts. This just isn't true if you look at avg or top earners, or avg or top endorsement deals.
It is definitely true when relating it to skill. Roger Federer could easily whipe the floor with any of the top female tennis players. It's not even close. Women should be thankful that they don't have to compete with men or else they wouldn't be winning anything. And it's not surprising that a second or third tier competition like women tennis doesn't add up to quite as much as male tennis, but it surprising that it is actually this close, because top male athletes out-perform female athletes in almost any sport (very few exceptions).
I always thought it weird that female athletes demand the same level of prize money, whilst being alot less skilled than their male counterparts. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
edit: For example. the german women's national team in soccer actually lost to a third tier club (all male) in germany and yet we are supposed to give them the same level of monetary support even though they are about ten times worse than the men's national team? That doesn't add up.
edit2: Even worse they only managed to tie an U19-youth team... that's right they can't even beat amateurs or youth players, but they are supposedly entitled to the same amount of money as the men's national team who compete with the best team's in the world? I don't think so.
you're missing the point. some women have the ability to use sex appeal to push their earnings way higher than men for their respective skill level and i don't think anyone can disagree with that.
looks like the men get more winnings and more endorsement money also anna K isn't even on the list. anything else you'd like to discuss?
Edit to clarify: the original point was made that women athletes on avg are making 3-5x more than male counterparts. This just isn't true if you look at avg or top earners, or avg or top endorsement deals.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
As a lot of people have been saying, KellyMilkies casted in GOMtv for a little while.
By the way the best commentator is Hazelynut, she was the first and only (if I remember correctly) winner of Commentator Idol.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
where have all the female casters gone long time passing where have all the female casters gone long time agooo where have all the female casters gone gone to DOTA everyone when will they ever learn? when will they ever learn
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
As a lot of people have been saying, KellyMilkies casted in GOMtv for a little while.
By the way the best commentator is Hazelynut, she was the first and only (if I remember correctly) winner of Commentator Idol.
it's unfair to women that kelly was even selected to cast for a season. she struggled with english enunciation and set a bad precedence for female casters.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
thabeet was a good example. greg oden is another one i can think of but they're nowhere near having the exposure or endorsement sustenance of anna K. danica patrick and michelle wie are also two subpar athletes who raked in millions in endorsements before winning anything.
i do not believe it is fair to compare tiger woods since he created his endorsement value from winning rather than sex appeal.
On July 29 2013 08:06 Goolpsy wrote: But yea, after the Kelly Milkies bashing on TL, I don't think anyone really dares take up a casting position on visually broadcast games..
I have to imagine most women were mocking her along with everyone else, because she certainly wasn't torn down because of her gender.
It set a bad example because it was obvious she didn't fit into the role.
i do not believe it is fair to compare tiger woods since he created his endorsement value from winning rather than sex appeal.
true. I'll give that up. i was going for more of a not worth the endorsement value for performance aspect for him. I found a better example in Dale Jr. anyways. 22 million in endorsements last season.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
i feel that this is something that happens much more often to women. sharapova had a dominant streak for a brief period of time unlike kournikova but retains sustained earnings from her sex appeal.
On July 29 2013 11:25 MattBarry wrote: Why would someone get warned for stating a fact in a non inflammatory manner
The situation could easily have become inflamed. The way he stated it could be deliberately passive, trying to bring up the topic without being banned.
Had it been inflammatory, I assume he would have been banned outright.
It's been discussed quite a lot and a very large majority of the community seems fine leaving the discussion as it is.
The warning drew a line in the sand and prevented this thread from being potentially derailed.
You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
On July 29 2013 11:25 MattBarry wrote: Why would someone get warned for stating a fact in a non inflammatory manner
The situation could easily have become inflamed. The way he stated it could be deliberately passive, trying to bring up the topic without being banned.
Had it been inflammatory, I assume he would have been banned outright.
It's been discussed quite a lot and a very large majority of the community seems fine leaving the discussion as it is.
The warning drew a line in the sand and prevented this thread from being potentially derailed.
I don't pay attention to drama. I didn't even know there was huge uproar about it recently.
On July 29 2013 08:06 Goolpsy wrote: Wc3 had Jackzie, Bunny and KidArtica, at least the last two were really popular (Moreso than any male casters for quite a while) Gom sc1 had LilSusie But yea, after the Kelly Milkies bashing on TL, I don't think anyone really dares take up a casting position on visually broadcast games..
KellyMilkies wasn't bashed for being a female. She was, however, criticized for her generally mediocre casting and diva personality. Actually, she had a large number of people coming to her defense because she was a female.
She got less criticism than many of the newer casters do now. However if you recall the time of the photoshoot..and the unfortunate wording in the article.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
I can't believe what I'm reading.
So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis).
Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism.
Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote: You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
i didn't say what you quoted. someone else did. i don't think it is too far of a stretch to say that kournikova at rank 8 was making 3-5x more than whoever her ranked 8 male counterpart was though.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
I can't believe what I'm reading.
So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis).
Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism.
Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks.
Terranist, that wasn't meant towards you. I really have to start name tagging my quotes. The quote and my discussion in this thread was towards SlixSC. sorry for the confusion. I'm not denying there are examples of people being paid for their looks. but it happens for both sexes, not just female.
Edit: The issue I have is that the quote says "professional female athletes", and "mildly successful" earn 3-5x than a successful male athlete. This just isn't the case. I would also argue that rank 8 in the world is a bit more than mildly successful. with the terms female athletes, mildly, and successful male athlete it makes a direct comparison to anna K making 3-5x that of the top ranking male players, not just rank #8
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
I can't believe what I'm reading.
So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis).
Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism.
Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks.
They're not being flown around the world as players (assuming you're talking about people like ailuj and Maddelisk), they're being flown around as marketing. Obviously no team is picking up mid masters or diamond players for the chance they'll win a tournament, because they won't. And how you can see that a few teams have 1 or 2 female players on their roster consisting of 99% males and think it's biased towards women is beyond me.
The actual professional women players (Scarlett, Flo, Aphrodite being the major good ones that spring to mind) very much earned their positions with their skills.
People like Maddelisk and ailuj being "signed" is the same as people like Nathanias being signed. They're not good enough to actually seriously play a match for a major team but they bring something to the table.
Doesn't really bother me particularly, would be nice if people would stop comparing apples to oranges so frequently though. Comparing people's salaries across sports and genders, or between non-comparable levels of players is just pointless.
On topic, if a female caster is actually good, by all means. My personal preferences on voices would be somewhat towards the Tasteless/Maynarde on day 3 levels of gravelly testosterone-fuelled menace, so I just don't particularly like the tonality of most women's voices for something like casting.
let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability.
you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women.
Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
What?
These men EARNED their place to get to the top.
Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has.
Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer.
It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
I can't believe what I'm reading.
So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis).
Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism.
Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks.
They're not being flown around the world as players (assuming you're talking about people like ailuj and Maddelisk), they're being flown around as marketing. Obviously no team is picking up mid masters or diamond players for the chance they'll win a tournament, because they won't. And how you can see that a few teams have 1 or 2 female players on their roster consisting of 99% males and think it's biased towards women is beyond me.
The actual professional women players (Scarlett, Flo, Aphrodite being the major good ones that spring to mind) very much earned their positions with their skills.
People like Maddelisk and ailuj being "signed" is the same as people like Nathanias being signed. They're not good enough to actually seriously play a match for a major team but they bring something to the table.
I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
Rhaegal, even if it were true and Quantic do have her signed because she is female it still doesn't mean esports is insanely female biased. One example does not make a bias. If every team had a mid masters or lower female on their A team roster then you might have a case. Quantic obviously sees something in Flo or they wouldn't have her there. I doubt her being female is that reason.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
That's largely because people instantly get banned if they don't keep a liberal/open mindset towards the sexes. Look at twitch chat or reddit when there is a female involved.
certainly part of the equation is that there is less female interest in starcraft than male interest, it would be silly to deny that. however, it would also be intellectually irresponsible to ignore the social context which serves as the reason for the lack of female interest - put simply, women have to go through more than men do in order to be visibly interested in starcraft (as well as many other stereotypically male hobbies). they are subject by default to scrutiny, vitriol and mockery for no reason other than being female and talking about or playing the game.
i'm a straight man - if i liked ballet and wanted to be a dancer, i would have to seriously factor in the inevitability of people not only assuming i'm gay but attacking and mocking me personally on that basis. even if ballet were my one true passion in life, there would be a huge incentive for me to avoid it, because not being subject to degrading, homophobic attitudes makes for a more pleasant and stable life experience. same principle for female gamers/SC2 players, just in reverse
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
I think there is a vocal minority that pushes it to the limit that really puts a black mark on the whole community. It's not TL per se, but the places TL links to a lot. Twitch channel chats and youtube comments can get pretty bad. In general TL is a pretty even place, there are good mods who are fair. It's not always so at other places. I am in no way implying that TL promotes said behavior or has any control over it. It is in the best interest to have TL promote those streams etc... but some of the fallout can get pushed here because the community is discussed here. So witnessing things on a stream chat during a wcs event might get talked about and a discussion erupts.
I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
Rhaegal, even if it were true and Quantic do have her signed because she is female it still doesn't mean esports is insanely female biased. One example does not make a bias. If every team had a mid masters or lower female on their A team roster then you might have a case. Quantic obviously sees something in Flo or they wouldn't have her there. I doubt her being female is that reason.
the fact that "because she's female" is a point of interest at all is proof in itself of bias against women. the idea of women in esports is exciting specifically because female pro gamers have to deal with an incredible volume of invasive and violent attitudes, so the courage and conviction of ignoring those attitudes makes for a better story, as does the idea that the first few female progamers will be visible role models who can encourage more women to get involved.
are we going to complain that rosa parks and martin luther king wouldn't be famous if they weren't black? of course they wouldn't, because there is an appropriate social context!
On July 29 2013 12:30 Waise wrote: certainly part of the equation is that there is less female interest in starcraft than male interest, it would be silly to deny that. however, it would also be intellectually irresponsible to ignore the social context which serves as the reason for the lack of female interest - put simply, women have to go through more than men do in order to be visibly interested in starcraft (as well as many other stereotypically male hobbies). they are subject by default to scrutiny, vitriol and mockery for no reason other than being female and talking about or playing the game.
i'm a straight man - if i liked ballet and wanted to be a dancer, i would have to seriously factor in the inevitability of people not only assuming i'm gay but attacking and mocking me personally on that basis. even if ballet were my one true passion in life, there would be a huge incentive for me to avoid it, because not being subject to degrading, homophobic attitudes makes for a more pleasant and stable life experience. same principle for female gamers/SC2 players, just in reverse
Just go play the game? I'm fed up with this line being trotted out. Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
On July 29 2013 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Just go play the game?
so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft?
Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society.
are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
On July 29 2013 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Just go play the game?
so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft?
Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society.
are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
If you compare them to the positive goodwill towards her, no.
On July 29 2013 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Just go play the game?
so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft?
Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society.
are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
Do you not think that Incontrol, Huk, DJ Wheat, or any other male isn't bombarded with hate either? It's called ignoring it. People told DJ Wheat they hoped his family died when he had to leave MLG because of a hospitalization... Incontrol is called fat on a daily basis. If you don't have thick skin, then being surrounded by anonymous users simply isn't for you.
On July 29 2013 12:41 Wombat_NI wrote: If you compare them to the positive goodwill towards her, no.
good god, then you are in massive denial. have you ever been in a busy twitch chat and seen scarlett's name come up?
the fact that people feel the need to bloviate their opinions about how "science is science and i call people the sex they are" is bad enough on its own, but on top of that you get people making comments about her genitalia, her sex life and sexual habits, using terms like "tranny" and "he-she", and other things i don't even want to continue writing because it makes me sick to type them out
besides which, even if you were right (you're not), what exactly does that have to do with the point of the odds being stacked against women in gaming? it doesn't matter that it's possible for any one particular woman to ignore sexism and do it anyway - the thing being discussed is that women are subject to a host of social and emotional obstacles that are simply nonexistent for men. that's not fair, and as long as it is the case, those of us who are outraged by it will continue to make an issue out of it
the ideal endgame is that when men make sexist comments they are overwhelmingly shamed for it, rather than women being overwhelmingly shamed just for entering the scene. and if you try to tell me it's not like that, again, you're in denial. TL is probably the most progressive SC community on the net and is in no way a representation of how the gaming world or the world in general treats people
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
A player that is transgender AND female, who is one of the more popular foreign players in the entire scene counts for nothing then?
Prejudice and subsequent discrimination from that often come from ignorance. I can say that I have never knowingly met a transgendered person. I'd imagine many others on TL are the same.
That a player is accepted and obtains a big fanbase from this community is a positive reflection on us, but is rarely recognised.
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
Yeah, they should be ignored because they'll be there to pick on anyone for anything.
But you get threads, like this one, where some people will argue things like "women have a huge advantage in esports because they're women" totally seriously, because they actually are sexist.
There are trolls who should be ignored, sure. But there are plenty of people who actually believe the stuff they say.
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
it's incredibly offensive that you would reduce the gravity of sexism to "people are mean and they tailor their insults". it really seems like you don't actually understand how damaging and pervasive sexist attitudes are, not in the gaming community but in pretty much the entire world.
the things people say about women in starcraft are essentially the same things they say about women staying in the kitchen, being less intelligent at manual and scientific tasks, being bad drivers, being shallow, manipulative, deceptive, slutty, and everything else in that bag of tricks. the motive is to marginalize them and degrade them until they simply no longer have the willpower to reach for and achieve what they truly want instead of what patriarchal society tells them they should want (which is to trade sex for shoes and pretty necklaces)
believe me, i understand what you are trying to say. there are some vicious people out there who do act in the way you describe - seeking any vulnerability in order to inflict harm. but i want you to understand how myopic, ignorant and offensive it is for you to actually claim that sexism is not its own discrete entity, independent of the abstract threat of "people being mean"
On July 29 2013 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote: A player that is transgender AND female, who is one of the more popular foreign players in the entire scene counts for nothing then?
what are you even talking about? it sounds like you're trying to say "because scarlett overcame an overwhelming amount of prejudice, we shouldn't try to fix prejudice - obviously women can just ignore it, so there's no problem!"
scarlett is an important figure because she overcame prejudice. if you deny that prejudice exists, then you are denying what makes her important.
Why is it that every topic has to devolve into shit like this? The OP content can never be discussed for what it was meant.... This is getting annoying to read everyday.
Anywho, there are a few fairly popular girls that stream occasionally here on TL but I can't remember their tags. Not as many women are playing SC as guys (duh so there are even fewer casters I imagine.
Hate to disagree with you, Wombat, but I think you're heavily overestimating the maturity of most of the gaming scene. The reason TL is so progressive is because this forum is heavily moderated (and well-moderated for the most part). If it weren't, it'd turn into a shithole; see any Reddit thread in which Scarlett (or any other woman) is mentioned. It's disgusting. Almost as bad as the downright insulting and hateful comments are those that maintain that women are simply worse at games because they're female -- as if genetics is the end all, be all of a person's potential.
In any case, Scarlett's success in the scene and her popularity do not really attest to the maturity of the scene but rather to her skill; she's good enough to stick around and show people that, hey, she is good at what she does, and that will draw in people no matter what. She's largely popular in spite of her situation, not because of it.
On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote: You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts.
That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men.
Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc.
And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
On July 29 2013 07:55 KingAce wrote: I am hesitant about the enhancement of female roles in gaming communities. Simply because I just can't stomach the amount of vile that comes out in chat rooms and youtube comments already for the female presence we currently have.
I wouldn't wish that kind of degrading abuse on anyone. I am still confused about the random female hate gaming communities continuously display the rare occasions we get females anywhere near the game.
Most of the times the criticism isn't even objective.
There's alot of jealous that goes on because alot of females abuse the fact that they are simply of the opposite gender to attract viewers simply for money. And if you don't think this is true, then tune into Tara Babcocks stream. If you seriously think Tara doesn't get viewers simply based on her sex appeal, I really don't know what to tell you.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility.
And please don't white knight and say that the attention is unwarranted. You seriously think that these female streamers/personalities/etc. don't know that they are in a male dominant environment, and that they are going to get a ton of hate for no reason?
Male athletes make more money than female athletes will ever dream of. And male athletes also use their sexuality if they have the looks to do so.
White Knight I love that word. I don't know this Tara Babcocks person. But I know of legitimate female players. I know of female gamers that rank higher than most male gamers in specific games, yet still get the same retarded comments.
So what do you respond with when a female gamer is legit in both skill and effort and is still ridiculed for her gender, despite the fact she isn't exploiting her sexuality?
On July 29 2013 13:03 babylon wrote: Hate to disagree with you, Wombat, but I think you're heavily overestimating the maturity of most of the gaming scene. The reason TL is so progressive is because this forum is heavily moderated (and well-moderated for the most part). If it weren't, it'd turn into a shithole; see any Reddit thread in which Scarlett (or any other woman) is mentioned. It's disgusting. Almost as bad as the downright insulting and hateful comments are those that maintain that women are simply worse at games because they're female -- as if genetics is the end all, be all of a person's potential.
It also helps that the community on TL is on the old side (early mid 20s on average iirc, a big factor being ancient BW-fans) and not a bunch of immature teenagers who make up most of the internet. TL is not indicative of the gaming community as a whole. Sure TL is a great place and that's why a lot of pros are part of this particular community. But that's because TL is often the exception to the unfortunate rule.
I think his final sentence is kinda silly too. It's as if he is saying it's okay to be jealous and hate people for no reason because it's a male dominated community and they should have seen it coming!
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
Its a simple numbers game, its the same reason there are no real top professional female sc2 players other than Scarlett and maybe flo (yes, i know there are others but not top pros). Honestly, I can't think of a female who is on the casting level of artosis or day9 ... and if they are not good, I would rather not watch, but that goes for bad male casters also.
Oh don't get me wrong, I don't dispute some of the more unsavoury elements of the internet. I suppose I put them into the 'angry basement dweller' category, rather than evaluate them properly as expressions of actual prejudice as a matter of course. I had to do this to maintain my sanity though, but yeah perhaps I'm not qualified to really talk about the scene as a whole.
I don't dispute Scarlett gets a lot of puerile and nasty comments, but equally in her I see a VERY skilled player who is an active and engaging poster on here, and who has been taken in and embraced to our collective as a consequence of that. In her case the whole 'skill will out' thing kind of bears fruit, hence we need more Scarletts!
If you're looking at non-players, Soe is someone who seems to get a lot of respect here (not sure about the rest of the internet). Now, I'm not saying everyone has a functioning bullshit filter, but at least in certain infamous cases of 'sexism' in the gaming community, it's to me not been about that at all. It's been a reaction to what is perceived as fakery, or a desire to make money out of a scene that is still rather niche and hardcore, and that's not restricted to women.
It's a complex issue, especially with attractive women in the scene. Playing pseudo-psychologist for a minute I would gather that it's some kind of latent rage displacement in many cases. I mean, guys that didn't get the hot girls in school, or perhaps were ridiculed by them can carry a LOT of angst because of that, so they lash out on that basis.
I don't dispute that sexism exists in gaming, but it's everywhere. I don't see articles in papers bemoaning the sexism of the music industry, or the newspaper industry (notably the gossip rags), or indeed in 'regular' sports and it's JUST as prevalent. Most but the more enlightened TL-dwellers don't really want to evaluate gender relations at a deep level and that is what needs to be done on a cross-societal basis if the greater evil of sexism is to be eroded.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote: You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts.
That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men.
Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc.
And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
Again, we're going with the apples/oranges
Federer-Djokovic isn't a fair comparison. Federer is essentially the 'GOAT' or at least close to it, Djokovic is getting to that level, they are at different points of their career. Djokovic is pretty marketable too and is a pretty funny fucker, but I don't know how that's transferred to endorsements thus far. I'm not a particularly good judge, being a heterosexual male but I find Djokovic to be more handsome anyway
If we were to go for GOAT candidates from the women's game, the comparison is not Sharapova, but Serena Williams, who isn't considered as attractive.
As far as I can tell, the 'attractive' bonus for women's sports merely equalises the earning field within the woman's game. Sharapova earns more than Serena Williams because she's 'hotter', but not more so than say a Federer over in the men's. The boon from sex-appeal has yet to outweigh the sheer sporting excellence that Federer has cultivated over years. The interesting time will be when there is a 'GOAT' candidate in the woman's game in the modern era that is also incredibly attractive, and see how that shapes up.
Sponsorship is a rather distorting factor on earnings, based so much as it is in an idealised image and various external factors. You only have to look at the rise/fall of Tiger Woods to see how transient it can be. Your example of Rooney is interesting because despite his 'shrek' likeness, he pulls in a hell of a lot of money from that, due to perhaps the paucity of English players of such calibre at this particular period of time.
Male athletes get bigger sponsorship because male sport tends to be bigger, so direct comparison is harder. Tennis is close to the only sport that sees anything approaching parity, so I guess it's not a terrible place to have the discussion.
Kournikova earned more than her tennis ability, but the fact she's so often namechecked perhaps is indicative of that being a relatively rare occurrence.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Why did your mother get called a whore? Also why did your mother expect intervention in this instance? Strikes me as curious Mr Rhaegal given your laissez-faire attitude towards insults, the apple falls far from the tree eh?
As I said, if you're a girl and wanna get out of your confort zone and into a boy's world, you gotta have thicker skin. It'll only last 'till you're old news.
I wonder how the Korean female casters are received in Korea. It seems a little bit ironic to me that Korea has us beat on female representation in SC2 (possibly eSports?) despite the fact that sexism and gender expectations in Korea are stronger than in the West.
Korea's even got its first female president before the USA too, ayyyye.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I would actually. Perhaps not as intrusively, but I do feel the shroud of anonymity destroys the chance of meaningful discourse on so much of the internet.
Might be a tiny bit off topic but has there ever been any female gamer that has been best of the best at a video game? Sure Scarlett can take games off Koreans but I don't think I'd rank her even in top 100 of best sc2 players. Not limiting it to Sc2 either. Brood war? First person shooters? Fighter games? I played CS for years and can't think of a single female. Played HoN for about a year and can't recall any good females. Been playing LoL for 2 years nows and there are no amazing females.
The only female "caster" (more of just an interviewer / host) that I enjoy watching is Sjokz. She does League of Legends EU LCS and it appears she actually knows what she's talking about most of the time. Then again, who knows how much of it she actually knows and how much of it gets fed to her during or right before the interview.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I don't understand your use of "claim." The sexism exists; that's undeniable. And male SC2 players aren't insulted for being guys, while women are degraded simply for being who they are: women. That's the crucial difference, being insulted for something that you can't change. Minority issues, in any case, always push people's buttons.
I understand you're asking a rhetorical question in that last paragraph, but I don't think Korea's SSN online registration thing is very effective. They have some truly horrible cases of cyberbullying going on over there. And I dunno if it's just the Korean language or what not, but some of the shit that's said by the netizens is shocking, and not much is done about it.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
One of the biggest hurdles for the feminist movement: the very women they purport to be supporting sometimes act in opposition to the movement.
And anyways, there're different branches of the movement that conflict with one another. Some feel that women should be fine expressing their sexuality and shit, while others say that women shouldn't be objectified ... but if you express your sexuality in such a ... stunning fashion, you're implicitly giving people permission to objectify you. Headache-inducing, truly.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Do people actually believe stuff like this? Don't mean to derail, but this is one of the most absurd claims I have ever read.
To be honest, I'm surprised that we get any new casters. There's so much toxic shit in the twitch chats whenever someone casts, it's a damn miracle we get any new talent.
On July 29 2013 13:54 SidianTheBard wrote: Might be a tiny bit off topic but has there ever been any female gamer that has been best of the best at a video game? Sure Scarlett can take games off Koreans but I don't think I'd rank her even in top 100 of best sc2 players. Not limiting it to Sc2 either. Brood war? First person shooters? Fighter games? I played CS for years and can't think of a single female. Played HoN for about a year and can't recall any good females. Been playing LoL for 2 years nows and there are no amazing females.
The only female "caster" (more of just an interviewer / host) that I enjoy watching is Sjokz. She does League of Legends EU LCS and it appears she actually knows what she's talking about most of the time. Then again, who knows how much of it she actually knows and how much of it gets fed to her during or right before the interview.
Not to my knowledge. It isn't so much a surprise though. There are so few women playing professionally in the first place that the chances one of them would be the best of the best is extremely low.
On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote: You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts.
That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men.
Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc.
And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
Again, we're going with the apples/oranges
Federer-Djokovic isn't a fair comparison. Federer is essentially the 'GOAT' or at least close to it, Djokovic is getting to that level, they are at different points of their career. Djokovic is pretty marketable too and is a pretty funny fucker, but I don't know how that's transferred to endorsements thus far. I'm not a particularly good judge, being a heterosexual male but I find Djokovic to be more handsome anyway
If we were to go for GOAT candidates from the women's game, the comparison is not Sharapova, but Serena Williams, who isn't considered as attractive.
As far as I can tell, the 'attractive' bonus for women's sports merely equalises the earning field within the woman's game. Sharapova earns more than Serena Williams because she's 'hotter', but not more so than say a Federer over in the men's. The boon from sex-appeal has yet to outweigh the sheer sporting excellence that Federer has cultivated over years. The interesting time will be when there is a 'GOAT' candidate in the woman's game in the modern era that is also incredibly attractive, and see how that shapes up.
Sponsorship is a rather distorting factor on earnings, based so much as it is in an idealised image and various external factors. You only have to look at the rise/fall of Tiger Woods to see how transient it can be. Your example of Rooney is interesting because despite his 'shrek' likeness, he pulls in a hell of a lot of money from that, due to perhaps the paucity of English players of such calibre at this particular period of time.
Male athletes get bigger sponsorship because male sport tends to be bigger, so direct comparison is harder. Tennis is close to the only sport that sees anything approaching parity, so I guess it's not a terrible place to have the discussion.
Kournikova earned more than her tennis ability, but the fact she's so often namechecked perhaps is indicative of that being a relatively rare occurrence.
Specific examples aside, I think we are somewhat in agreement as a matter principal. I'm not trying to compare Fed and Djokovic - I'm pointing out why a comparison between sharapova and Djokovic is a little unfair since Djokovic does not have the same kind of market power as her. More broadly I just want to point out that the suggestion that endorsements allow women too earn mute than men is false when you make relevant comparisons between athletes of similar skill and similar marketability. I think the closest example I can think of is sharapova and Beckham. Both competent but not great, both attractive, and both enjoying a fair amount of endorsements. Which shows that the idea that women have an unfair advantage via endorsements is untrue.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Do people actually believe stuff like this? Don't mean to derail, but this is one of the most absurd claims I have ever read.
oh son, I shit you not. I could spoonfeed you, but if you'd rather call it absurd than so much as a quick google search, so be it.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
Human beings are nasty fucking creatures-- smarter Chimps basically. We aren't some spiritually blessed, progressive species. The human race has been in utter chaos since its inception, and they will continue to be so. Just because internet users of a few well-developed countries can come on forums and preach for feminism doesn't mean the world is getting any better. Things like insults in online gaming are considered "issues" to these forum goers, while billions of people starve, and genocide and slavery is happening across the globe.
I mean, if you want to believe that the community is getting better, go for it, but humans will never fail to cause chaos. It's in their nature. Turn off TL forum moderation for 24 hours and watch what happens. Don't delude yourself.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
Human beings are nasty fucking creatures-- smarter Chimps basically. We aren't some spiritually blessed, progressive species. The human race has been in utter chaos since its inception, and they will continue to be so. Just because internet users of a few well-developed countries can come on forums and preach for feminism doesn't mean the world is getting any better. Things like insults in online gaming are considered "issues" to these forum goers, while billions of people starve, and genocide and slavery is happening across the globe.
I mean, if you want to believe that the community is getting better, go for it, but humans will never fail to cause chaos. It's in their nature. Turn off TL forum moderation for 24 hours and watch what happens. Don't delude yourself.
Sorry but I find this statement to be needlessly pessimistic, and in any event makes a false equivalence between is and ought. On the first point, I would argue that most of human history would disagree with you. Yes there was the world wars and so on, but as a species we have been making steps towards greater equality. We had the civil rights movement, and no longer see women as property. In the recent months, several countries have pulled through marriage equality legislation. Not perfect, o grant you, but hardly the chaotic intelligent chimps that you a're suggesting. You are of course entitled to your opinion, however pessimistic.
On the second point you're mixing up what the situation is now, and what it should be. Even accepting that we are just monkeys, it is a fair point to make that our community should be more mature.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Nah, that's just Ronda Rousey being Ronda Rousey. She's like the new Gina Carano, who gets a lot of attention because of her looks and will probably lose her focus on training because the amount of time spent with her other "business ventures".
Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!"
On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote: His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
Good, so your are establishing the point that the behavior is not just a 'male' thing. the public reacting to sexual attribute of an athlete of the opposite sex is _not_ just a 'male' or 'immature' thing... it is 'nature'. That is how the species manage to survive for that long...
Note that all that horrible unwanted sexual attention does not seems to discourage Nascar male drivers from participating...
I know kellymilkies is getting it in with Loda right now. (he's a really big name in the Dota scene.) AFAIK she was casting Dota 2 for some time but not sure if she still does. :/
On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote: His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
Good, so your are establishing the point that the behavior is not just a 'male' thing. the public reacting to sexual attribute of an athlete of the opposite sex is _not_ just a 'male' or 'immature' thing... it is 'nature'. That is how the species manage to survive for that long...
Note that all that horrible unwanted sexual attention does not seems to discourage Nascar male drivers from participating...
This is a very broad generalisation. There is appreciating an athlete's looks, and then there is "lol nice tits" and "I'll do that". Are you sincerely making the argument that the latter two are perfectly mature and appropriate thing to say?
On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote: His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
Good, so your are establishing the point that the behavior is not just a 'male' thing. the public reacting to sexual attribute of an athlete of the opposite sex is _not_ just a 'male' or 'immature' thing... it is 'nature'. That is how the species manage to survive for that long...
Note that all that horrible unwanted sexual attention does not seems to discourage Nascar male drivers from participating...
This is a very broad generalisation. There is appreciating an athlete's looks, and then there is "lol nice tits" and "I'll do that". Are you sincerely making the argument that the latter two are perfectly mature and appropriate thing to say?
No, that is not my argument.... I will dispute however that such similar comment are absent of chat between girls of similar age. The main difference is that teenage boys find the 'courage' to say that on the internet under the cover of anonymity/pseudonym, when they would be terrified to simply say 'hello' to that same person in real life...
My argument is that people complaining by proxy about so called 'unwanted' attention -- for 'caster' to boot -- is hypocritical at best. My argument is that people that claim that looks and other unrelated to the skill relevant to the performance at hand is only a factor for women are just mysandre.
On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote: His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR.
Good, so your are establishing the point that the behavior is not just a 'male' thing. the public reacting to sexual attribute of an athlete of the opposite sex is _not_ just a 'male' or 'immature' thing... it is 'nature'. That is how the species manage to survive for that long...
Note that all that horrible unwanted sexual attention does not seems to discourage Nascar male drivers from participating...
This is a very broad generalisation. There is appreciating an athlete's looks, and then there is "lol nice tits" and "I'll do that". Are you sincerely making the argument that the latter two are perfectly mature and appropriate thing to say?
you really think only guys say things like that? lol
I'm not sexist at all and I totally believe in fair opportunities for males and females and that females are just as capable as males in pretty much any walk of life. That being said for some reason I just can't watch a female caster... I immediately stop watching. Don't have a specific reason but for some reason I just can't enjoy it like the male casting duos etc.
On July 29 2013 16:09 Gamegene wrote: i don't understand why there's a "need" for female casters, just like there's a "need" for female gamers, outside of obvious reasons.
Because it's good for the community as a whole. It helps showing that nerds/gamers are not just a bunch of male teenagers living in their parents basement. There ARE female gamers. They are probably more than we think, even on RTS or FPS, but they tend to hide their gender because of the sexism of the community. By promoting the gaming community as a respectful one (and there is a LOT of work to do), the demographic of the community, and the community itself will evolve to one much more worth being a part of. Also, if you want eSports to become more mainstream, we need women to be a 50% part of it.
On July 29 2013 16:28 papaz wrote: What's so strange that there are almost no female casters? There are almost no female progamers so why would there be any more female casters?
For whatever reason females don't have the same interest in pro gaming.
This. Why create issues where there are none? Any woman who puts enough work and dedication like the rest of the casters/players she WILL gets noticed, there simply aren't any and that's that.
I swear topics like this are simply to stir a hornets nest of internet crusaders.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
On July 29 2013 16:09 Gamegene wrote: i don't understand why there's a "need" for female casters, just like there's a "need" for female gamers, outside of obvious reasons.
Because it's good for the community as a whole.
says who ? base on what metric of 'good' ?
It helps showing that nerds/gamers are not just a bunch of male teenagers living in their parents basement.
That is a sizeable part of the demographic, the extremely immature cross-section of them being used in this thread to pain everyone... that is a strawman. But then if people are ready to disregard logic for the sake of a political argument there is nothing you can do to reason...
There ARE female gamers. They are probably more than we think, even on RTS or FPS, but they tend to hide their gender because of the sexism of the community.
No one argued that there are _none_. Since I do not know what _you_ think or even less what _we/one_ think... I can't tell if there is more or less than that. All I can do is look at any pro/semi-pro-level competition and count...
By promoting the gaming community as a respectful one (and there is a LOT of work to do), the demographic of the community, and the community itself will evolve to one much more worth being a part of.
That is _your_ idea of what is worth being part of. Some may prefer meritocracy over affirmative action... to each its own.
Also, if you want eSports to become more mainstream, we need women to be a 50% part of it.
On July 29 2013 16:09 Gamegene wrote: i don't understand why there's a "need" for female casters, just like there's a "need" for female gamers, outside of obvious reasons.
Because it's good for the community as a whole. It helps showing that nerds/gamers are not just a bunch of male teenagers living in their parents basement. There ARE female gamers. They are probably more than we think, even on RTS or FPS, but they tend to hide their gender because of the sexism of the community. By promoting the gaming community as a respectful one (and there is a LOT of work to do), the demographic of the community, and the community itself will evolve to one much more worth being a part of. Also, if you want eSports to become more mainstream, we need women to be a 50% part of it.
Why are so many people hellbent on making esports main stream? You honestly want all the politics and other bullshit that comes with mainstream? You guys want to become alienated from the pros as they become more and more popular? You want BM and cursing to disappear? I've never understood this whole mainstream craze. Personally, I prefer a smaller scene, where good analyst and pro-player casters are still appreciated, and things like Gameheart don't butcher the ui to make it easier to watch for casual players.
As long as I can watch players like Innovation and Flash straight up beast on nerds, I'm more than happy with the scene. I don't worry about all the outside bullshit like so many others seem to do. What happened to just loving starcraft?
On July 29 2013 16:09 Gamegene wrote: i don't understand why there's a "need" for female casters, just like there's a "need" for female gamers, outside of obvious reasons.
Because it's good for the community as a whole. It helps showing that nerds/gamers are not just a bunch of male teenagers living in their parents basement. There ARE female gamers. They are probably more than we think, even on RTS or FPS, but they tend to hide their gender because of the sexism of the community. By promoting the gaming community as a respectful one (and there is a LOT of work to do), the demographic of the community, and the community itself will evolve to one much more worth being a part of. Also, if you want eSports to become more mainstream, we need women to be a 50% part of it.
Why are so many people hellbent on making esports main stream? You honestly want all the politics and other bullshit that comes with mainstream? You guys want to become alienated from the pros as they become more and more popular? You want BM and cursing to disappear? I've never understood this whole mainstream craze. Personally, I prefer a smaller scene, where good analyst and pro-player casters are still appreciated, and things like Gameheart don't butcher the ui to make it easier to watch for casual players.
As long as I can watch players like Innovation and Flash straight up beast on nerds, I'm more than happy with the scene. I don't worry about all the outside bullshit like so many others seem to do. What happened to just loving starcraft?
Thats fine if the people bringing you the starcraft 2 can all make a living on broadcasting the game, but right now many of them can't(or can't do it long term, ei: can't have kids or retire). Without the ability to do that, the long term prospects of SC2 is pretty limited and might be short lived. If your ok with that, great, but other folks would like to see it do more.
Also, players like Flash and Innovation only became as good as they are because BW was main stream in Korea. They have female caster, avoid BM and cursing and try to make the game enjoyable for everyone.
I'm going to be extremely vague here, but there was a really good caster for one either iccup/esv or glhf.tv back in 2011ish. I used to mention her every time female players/casters were talked about, but her name eludes me now.
She had a really good voice, and was quite knowledgeable about the game, very confident and easy to listen to. It's unfortunate that she received very little attention, she was genuinely better than a number of male casters that rose to some prominence later on.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote: honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
honestly, why should I care if the person behind that id is a male or female ? why bother making 'assumption' about such an irrelevant topic... I watch SC2 cast to be entertained by skilled game, not to find a date....
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
On July 30 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote: honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
honestly, why should I care if the person behind that id is a male or female ? why bother making 'assumption' about such an irrelevant topic... I watch SC2 cast to be entertained by skilled game, not to find a date....
Nobody's saying you should care. This also has nothing to do with casted games either, Just saying that there is no way to make generalizations about who is playing SC2 ladder games.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
I wouldn't blame our community specifically for something we can't control. What we have right now is a product of decades of games marketed primarily towards males. Our community reflects the gender-lob-sided player base and so does our pro-scene.
To understand why we don't have as many female community figureheads I think you need to spend more time understanding women, and not making assumptions about whether or not we are giving them enough chances to succeed, because that's not the issue.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Honestly you don't have any idea how many women play SC2. None of us actually know. All we can do is make assumptions and our assumptions are not great because of the degree of anonymity provided in game. Blizzard is the only one that has any kind of data on that and so far they haven't told us.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Honestly you don't have any idea how many women play SC2. None of us actually know. All we can do is make assumptions and our assumptions are not great because of the degree of anonymity provided in game. Blizzard is the only one that has any kind of data on that and so far they haven't told us.
you still can make correlations, there are demographcis, in every stacraft video in youtube, there are demographics, in every survey that is made in reddit and here. there are more starcraft and RTS related forums than TL, and you can see the demographics. and you can count how many people play sc2 and you know IRL and how many of them are woman.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
you have derailed with success the thing i said.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
For the same reason that there are so few men at Justin Bieber concert ?
PS: you invent a problem, then you choose a 'reason' for it... and then you ask other to prove your reason wrong.
Let me try:
A world-wide flood wiped-out life on the surface of the earth... tell me now why are there still life on the surface of the earth if there was no Arch to save a couple of each species ?
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
kelly milkes was hated by the same reason SNM is hated. but that is other issue.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
Where would I find this evidence of woman who have not played starcraft due to sexism? Is that data freely available for people to review? I can tell you that 100% of women I know do not like communities that are sexist and are less likely to be intrested in something if it is filled with sexist men. Every single woman I know.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
kelly milkes was hated by the same reason SNM is hated. but that is other issue.
Did they hate SNM's accent, modes of speech, and voice the way they attacked Milkes'?
Both Milkes and Moletrap were given the same commentary--voice problems. They were described as having a whiny voice and they were constantly attacked for it. Milkes being given the "I don't understand her" treatment while moletrap being harassed for no other reason than he seemed nerdier than wolf.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
For the same reason that there are so few men at Justin Bieber concert ?
PS: you invent a problem, then you choose a 'reason' for it... and then you ask other to prove your reason wrong.
Let me try:
A world-wide flood wiped-out life on the surface of the earth... tell me now why are there still life on the surface of the earth if there was no Arch to save a couple of each species ?
this thread claims that sexism is the reason of few women casters. I say it's because so few woman play starcraft. this thread claims that sexism is the reason of few women playing starcraft then. so, I say women simply don't like starcraft and any RTS game, in the same way few men go at any bieber concert. so what is this sorcery?
My ex girl is an avid gamer. her favorites are castlevania and resident evil franchises on pc plataform, she loved the attention nerds gave her In mmo's, people would throw a bunch of money on her, run us through dungeons and shit. it was fun!
she never touched starcraft tho. in 2006 I installed wc3 on her laptop so we'd play some dota, but that's it.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Honestly you don't have any idea how many women play SC2. None of us actually know. All we can do is make assumptions and our assumptions are not great because of the degree of anonymity provided in game. Blizzard is the only one that has any kind of data on that and so far they haven't told us.
you still can make correlations, there are demographcis, in every stacraft video in youtube, there are demographics, in every survey that is made in reddit and here. there are more starcraft and RTS related forums than TL, and you can see the demographics. and you can count how many people play sc2 and you know IRL and how many of them are woman.
Count the people you know IRL. Really, well You can do the same for males too. Among the people I personally know, almost none of them play SC2. Therefore I will make the correlation that nobody plays starcraft. doesnt really work does it.
The only ones that I do know that play starcraft, are people I connected with in game. Come to think of it, A lot of those people I've never met in person so I don't actually know their gender.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would.
Please. Seriously?
Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job.
The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)!
But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole.
"Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok.
The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise.
You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ?
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ?
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
But it's not sexist because women are able to compete!@!!!1!
On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ?
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
Just because there is no written rules does not mean there are no unwritten rules. That's how bias works.
Just because MLG is not biased does not mean that the community is not biased (and vice versa)
Lets take Destiny as an example. He made disparaging remarks towards someone. His sponsors did not want to be associated with that, so they stopped supporting him. Does the sponsors not being supportive of destiny make Destiny's disparaging no longer disparaging?
No, of course not. What Destiny does and what his sponsors do are separate actions.
So, just because MLG doesn't mind women in their tournaments does not mean that the community is no longer misogynistic.
On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote: Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ?
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
Just because there is no written rules does not mean there are no unwritten rules. That's how bias works.
Just because MLG is not biased does not mean that the community is not biased (and vice versa)
Lets take Destiny as an example. He made disparaging remarks towards someone. His sponsors did not want to be associated with that, so they stopped supporting him. Does the sponsors not being supportive of destiny make Destiny's disparaging no longer disparaging?
No, of course not. What Destiny does and what his sponsors do are separate actions.
So, just because MLG doesn't mind women in their tournaments does not mean that the community is no longer misogynistic.
Agreed, except I think it's more direct:
1. There are no female role models. A lack of top level females to emulate means less will enter since there is no one really to emulate or look up to.
2. The community has not yet reached the saturation of females where females are the norm. Whenever they enter, they get white-knighted or sexually harassed to death and, honestly, I'd be pretty sick of it. It's not helped by the female members of the community who are clearly attention whoring. I'd be pretty turned off by this attitude as well. If our community were even 30-40 percent female, I think this would change because people wouldn't be so shocked that someone not male is involved.
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
Edit: From a quick search on google, There is a good amount of debate on "why" that gender disparity exists much like we are having with "why so few women casters". Lack of passion isn't generally cited as the cause care to back up your assertion.
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
Its just confirmation bias.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT, he assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator.
On July 30 2013 06:43 Gruntt wrote: It's a bad thread to make really....
If a caster is male, alright
If a caster is female, alright
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator.
Isn't this "understood" knowledge the reason we are having this discussion?
Because someone like DJWheat, Khaldor, Catsinpajamas, etc.... can commentate without needing to be GM in Korea?
If we had the bar raised that you can't be a caster unless you were top 20 in Aligulac; then no one would complain about women not being present because most pro players wouldn't even qualify to be a caster.
But since you can be diamond and still cast then "skill" in the game is no longer a boundary. Yet, we still don't have women out there.
We know its not skill. We know its not because they're not being given a chance (Milkes for example)
That leaves us with just one thing, it must be the reception they get from the community.
The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male.
On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither
Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client.
that's the point.
tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues.
You could ask the same thing for practically all games.
let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1.
I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3.
I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have.
so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
More white knighting.
Women are not casting/playing in competitive games because they are statistically inclined not to be competitive. It's basically the same reason why women are not in positions of power at businesses; most high profile jobs like the CEO position are taken up by men. A very large portion of this is due to the fact they are simply biologically inclined not to be as competitive as males are. So don't be surprised that in an immensely cut throat environment that women are not seen very often.
It has nothing to do with sexism; it has everything to do with the fact that in order to be successful in SC2, you already have to sacrifice a great deal. It's already an 'unfavorable' occupation to males who are already biologically inclined towards competitive atmospheres. Now think of it from your average woman's perspective, and you get exactly why Starcraft 2 seems unattractive. The 'sexist' attacks are just icing on the cake.
And I'm merely talking about SC2 from a professional standpoint. If we're talking about SC2 as a hobby, of course most women aren't going to give two shits about SC2.
So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
There is an equal number of men and women that are in it just for the pay check... no gender bias when it come to 'finding a job to feed yourself'
Google a bit further.. there are studies about this... that show that the more economical pressure the less gender disparity in field that have job oportunity... and the more luxury of choice, the more people tend to do what they 'like' rather than what is economically efficient, and the more you observe gender gaps (in both direction) in different profession.. google "norwegian gender equality paradox".
Edit: From a quick search on google, There is a good amount of debate on "why" that gender disparity exists much like we are having with "why so few women casters".
Same fallacies from the same set of people yes... they just started at it earlier and stronger than with e-sport, because it is a bigger field and a bigger slice of the economy. They already started to rool-out what is euphemistically called 'affirmative-action' programs. iow introducing institutionalized sexual discrimination in field that was purely meritocratic.
Lack of passion isn't generally cited as the cause care to back up your assertion.
Estimated Proportion of female in the IT industry (for pay job)... about 30% Estimated Proportion of female in Open Source Software volunteer (hobby, not for pay): 1-3% QED
Note: Volunteer are self-selected... most of the time with little or no physical interaction with the rest of the volunteers. It is also well documented that by large, patch contributions and review are gender-less... code has no gender and in most FLOSS project, code speak... in that regard is it like the SC2 ladder: Meritocratic.
On July 30 2013 06:43 Gruntt wrote: It's a bad thread to make really....
If a caster is male, alright
If a caster is female, alright
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator.
Isn't this "understood" knowledge the reason we are having this discussion?
Because someone like DJWheat, Khaldor, Catsinpajamas, etc.... can commentate without needing to be GM in Korea?
If we had the bar raised that you can't be a caster unless you were top 20 in Aligulac; then no one would complain about women not being present because most pro players wouldn't even qualify to be a caster.
But since you can be diamond and still cast then "skill" in the game is no longer a boundary. Yet, we still don't have women out there.
We know its not skill. We know its not because they're not being given a chance (Milkes for example)
That leaves us with just one thing, it must be the reception they get from the community.
I don't hear female casters when I tune into an NFL or MLB game, so don't know why people are making a big deal out of esports lacking female casters when sports millions of times bigger and more watched don't have them.
What if people are just more receptive to male voices? Moletrap was hated because he had a girl-like voice, and personally I find a male voice more relaxing and easier to listen to than a female's as the higher pitch of a female's voice tends to 'attack' my ears more than a male's.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
kelly milkes was hated by the same reason SNM is hated. but that is other issue.
Did they hate SNM's accent, modes of speech, and voice the way they attacked Milkes'?
Both Milkes and Moletrap were given the same commentary--voice problems. They were described as having a whiny voice and they were constantly attacked for it. Milkes being given the "I don't understand her" treatment while moletrap being harassed for no other reason than he seemed nerdier than wolf.
SNM has better enunication, but yes people do pick on him.
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
Yes, which is why we have a threat questioning how the community sees women in games...
A thread that is judging the "eyeballs" as you call it.
MLG doesn't care, GOM doesn't care.
"Eyeballs" aren't watching women. Conclusions that can be made are either that women don't want it bad enough, or eyeballs judge women's product differently than they judge Sean's product.
In defense of Sean, his product works because he does a stream for hours and hours a day 5-7 days a week depending on if he's casting a tournament or not. But people also respect his talent and skills as a player which made them drawn to his show in the first place (as well as his humor, delivery, etc..). He built his base with blood sweat and tears.
Same with bitter Same with DjWheat etc...
But before they got big, they needed to wade into the waters first. They needed to jump in and see if they had a product that people liked. It is in this starting space that the community's bias is called into question. Is it harder to be taken seriously as a female caster just starting out compared to being a male caster just starting out.
Some people will say that the female caster's looks will pull in more viewers. But that doesn't get you taken seriously. That doesn't get you an invite to MLG or GOM. That simply gets you more reddit fans you thumbs up your chest. At best you become like Destiny; tonnes of viewers on your stream but unable to produce actual results.
(In fairness, Idra became the same thing)
The problem is not from "eSports" being against women or MLG or GSL, etc...
The problem being presented is that the so called "eyeballs" don't respect the product when gender gets thrown into the mix. [case example, Scarlett]
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
to the people talking about women not haing "merit" to do a casting job, tahts false. Threr are proffesional female, and male athletes. Look at just about any sport in the world, you have a female league, and a male league. Why? because Men are just better at most of the events than the women are. Its a harsh thing to say, but its reality. Look at basicaly any professional sport, and look at the male, vs female games. No one will honestly say that the females could compete with the males is the majority of the sports.
Quick example. Snowboarding. Go look at the mens 1/2 pipe competition, and look at their smallest trick. it will probably be something like a 1080, or a 1260. Now go to the womens side, their Biggest trick will be a 1080 maybe a 1260, and only a couple women in the entire world can do that.
That being said, that is probably one of the main reasons you don't see many female casters, its because the men that were doing those same activity are probably just better/were better at them and have better experience.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
I was really impressed by Smix in her latest event as a translator and host. Probably the most professional ive ever seen in this community. I think she has the knowledge to cast, she would do great if that were her focus. But this community is kinda harsh though, unless you are a god like day9 or tastosis then ........
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT,
I see plenty of women in IT... What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project... and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures... If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked... and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people.
He assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
That articulates why I queried your last post Magpie. I might have gotten the wrong idea though
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT,
I see plenty of women in IT... What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project... and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures... If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked... and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people.
He assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void.
The assumption you are making is that only people who volunteer for Open software development are passionate about IT. Everyone else is just in it for the money.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT,
I see plenty of women in IT... What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project... and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures... If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked... and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people.
He assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void.
The assumption you are making is that only people who volunteer for Open software development are passionate about IT. Everyone else is just in it for the money.
Its just the same age old argument of conformation bias:
"I don't see woman doing this "thing", therefor they much not like this "thing". Unless you provide me with overwhelming evidence that something is preventing them from join this "thing", I will assume that it because women don't like it. P.S. I will decided was evidence is sufficient evidence and disregard what evidence I don't like."
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
I only half agree with B and disagree with A.
A assumes there is no bias that exists with the systems and that it naturally leans towards a male domination; I disagree. Although I do agree with the results of there being less women out there, I disagree that the lopsidedness of the numbers is natural and normal.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What I do agree with is that tournament organizers are not misogynistic nor are tournament organizers preventing women from being able to do well; that responsibility rests solely on the way the internet and the gaming community acts around women.
I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd.
Women will never be good at starcraft or know the Game. Women are mostly just not interested in competetive Games when they can play Casualgames like "The Sims" or "League of Casuals".
On July 30 2013 08:29 Plansix wrote: I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd.
This always happens when bias is revealed in a community. Since the members of said community don't want to say that they are biased, they always create "arguments" that have never been made before but suddenly appear when their biases are shown to them.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
On July 30 2013 08:29 Plansix wrote: I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd.
This always happens when bias is revealed in a community. Since the members of said community don't want to say that they are biased, they always create "arguments" that have never been made before but suddenly appear when their biases are shown to them.
I really want to go through and right them all down. Then time we have friends over for drinks I can break them out and say "Ok, ladies, here is a list of reasons why you don't want to cast Starcraft games. Are you ready to find something out about yourselves?"
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
When the community chased off Milkes they did not chase away "all women casters" they simply chased off milkes. Milkes and Moletrap being lambasted for their voices is what happened. You knowing female casters without Milkes' or Moltrap's voice problems does not change what happened to Milkes and Moletrap.
You seem to think any comment brought up about Milkes is a comment for all women.
On July 30 2013 08:17 Plansix wrote: Its just the same age old argument of conformation bias:
"I don't see woman doing this "thing", therefor they much not like this "thing". Unless you provide me with overwhelming evidence that something is preventing them from join this "thing", I will assume that it because women don't like it. P.S. I will decided was evidence is sufficient evidence and disregard what evidence I don't like."
An alternate description is: I don't care. the gender distribution of the contributors of the project is irrelevant to me. I do not take irrelevant criteria into considerations. Our project is internet based, we have no way to even know what color, age, gender you really are and we do not care... If you bother to show-up and contribute good, if you don't, well, you're free to spend your free time as you see fit.
On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote: [quote] She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
Well one might argue that it is natural human behaviour to like deeper voices more in a context of commentating (basically sharing knowledge and pointing out things) or authority than effeminate.
I would think that in every culture a big man with a deep voice carries more authority than a small woman with a squeaky voice even if they say the same things.
I m not sure about the "casting voice stuff" but i m pretty sure about the authority.
If any women were knowledgeable and passionate about the game they cast wanted a head casting position for any major tournament, I'd be down 100%, regardless of how she looked.
But the problem lies in the fact that there probably isn't a single woman alive dedicated enough to both the actual game and the casting position. God I can't tell you how many times I've heard sideline female reporters for gaming tourneys/events sounds SO fucking forced. It's aggravating and immediately makes me tune out of whatever she is saying.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote: [quote] She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something?
On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote: [quote] Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
When the community chased off Milkes they did not chase away "all women casters" they simply chased off milkes. Milkes and Moletrap being lambasted for their voices is what happened. You knowing female casters without Milkes' or Moltrap's voice problems does not change what happened to Milkes and Moletrap.
You seem to think any comment brought up about Milkes is a comment for all women.
That's not what happened at all. I said separate articulation and voice because they aren't the same thing yet you continue to pick at the overlap. I've been saying ignore the sexism and other bullshit. If you cast you are going to be bombarded regardless. You try to make it sound like I wasn't there when I was deep in the trenches trying to get rid of the shit. I've heard it all bud. Don't think so? Check my filter.
On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list.
On July 30 2013 09:41 levelping wrote: I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something?
Can't say I agree.
This issue is too often treated, as indeed most issues of discrimination as an entirely one-directional phenomenon. The dominant group, in this case males and how they treat women who enter into the community. If women are under-represented, or are harshly treated within the community, it is usually posited that it is due to discriminatory views of the dominant grouping.
There is a willingness to blindly conform to this particular model and not properly look at other avenues worth exploring.
My own personal view is that sexism and gender dynamics is a more inter-linked, it's a relationship that is influenced by both sides of the occasion. How men view women is not based entirely upon an abstract ideal of women, but is influenced and reinforced by how women themselves portray themselves as a group.
This is not to place the ball in the court of women, and 'victim blame' them. It's an observation that however much you complain about being pigeonholed, if you willingly step into that pigeonhole and define yourself by its dimensions, then you're never going to be treated any differently.
For example, booth girls and glamorous hosts who utilise their sex appeal to get those jobs. I ascribe no moral judgement in doing so, but it's not exactly going to break gender stereotypes by conforming to them is it?
In the 'real world' it's more prevalent. For all that body image hangups are a huge thing, especially for women, the very forms of media that feed into that shared neurosis the most, the gossip magazine and celebrity culture are consumed primarily BY women.
there are less female casters because there are less female players most likely. the chances are just less that one wishes to seek out this role after being into the game etc etc.
also does it matter? i personally found most of the female voices of this sc2 scene thus far grating/annoying (as well as a few of the male) and when casting its about your voice and not gender
these topics about "gay female bi" players are just so stupid they need to be banable. i dont care if someone is anything but a gamer im not sure why others do
On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote: [quote] And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list.
Yeah and sexism is always at the top of the list, always without any exceptions. Because everybody is a bad sexist and hinders women in every aspect of the their lifes.
For me this whole thing is not so much about deep voices or any of that. It is really hard to become a known caster these days, if have to put in a shitton of effort to make it to the top and be considered a good caster. Since a lot of the "big" casters build their image and popularity from the scratch of sc2.
These days you have to put in a shitton of effort to get into the casting scene like nathanias is doing right now, i m not saying that the casters that build their image from the start arent putting in a lot of effort, artosis and khaldor (!!) are prime examples of a really great work ethic. A lot of casters also had a history in esports, as a caster or a progamer.
So if you play the numbers game on female vs males you also have to consider that most of the casters that are known right now also had a big history of esports in general which makes the numbers factors even bigger.
On July 30 2013 09:41 levelping wrote: I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something?
Can't say I agree.
This issue is too often treated, as indeed most issues of discrimination as an entirely one-directional phenomenon. The dominant group, in this case males and how they treat women who enter into the community. If women are under-represented, or are harshly treated within the community, it is usually posited that it is due to discriminatory views of the dominant grouping.
There is a willingness to blindly conform to this particular model and not properly look at other avenues worth exploring.
My own personal view is that sexism and gender dynamics is a more inter-linked, it's a relationship that is influenced by both sides of the occasion. How men view women is not based entirely upon an abstract ideal of women, but is influenced and reinforced by how women themselves portray themselves as a group.
This is not to place the ball in the court of women, and 'victim blame' them. It's an observation that however much you complain about being pigeonholed, if you willingly step into that pigeonhole and define yourself by its dimensions, then you're never going to be treated any differently.
For example, booth girls and glamorous hosts who utilise their sex appeal to get those jobs. I ascribe no moral judgement in doing so, but it's not exactly going to break gender stereotypes by conforming to them is it?
In the 'real world' it's more prevalent. For all that body image hangups are a huge thing, especially for women, the very forms of media that feed into that shared neurosis the most, the gossip magazine and celebrity culture are consumed primarily BY women.
Oh man, if you hate booth babes at much as I do, you should read this:
"I don't care about the logistics or the decisions behind it. I don't care if this is just standard practice and it has always been done. I don't care if it is a proven sales technique. It has to stop. And not because I'm offended.
It has to stop because it is fucking boring.
It is a boring, lazy marketing technique. A relic of a bygone era. Something that should have been retired along with bellbottoms, smoking in hospitals and 'white' and 'coloured' drinking fountains. Are you selling underwear? Is your marketing strategy in place to promote what the women are wearing? No? Then you should be ashamed of yourselves and your lack of creativity.
I know it must be difficult for you. This is the way of things, you say. It's always been this way and you say customers expect it. In that case, leave and never come back. Go back to car or boat shows. Don't bring your tedium anywhere near such creative properties as video games. Video games deserve better. People interested in video games deserve better. It's bad enough that sexism is still a colossal problem in the video game industry. The last thing it needs is this outdated and moronic sales technique adding to it.
If you're still confused, I have an easy solution. If you have a product, promote the hell out of it. Tell me why it's awesome. Show me why you think it's worth the time you spent sweating over it and why you are so dedicated to it.
Don't you dare bring boobs into this. Don't try to deceive me with cheap and misguided arousal. This isn't an army base in the 1950's. I can get boobs at home. I don't need you trying to pathetically circumvent my genuine interest and pushing a marketing technique at me that has been around for several hundred years. More people are interested in video games in 2013 more than ever before. They are interested in video games, not your banal song-and-dance. Video games are exceedingly creative. You are not."
I love it to death, because it sums up exactly how I feel about the topic: How fucking dumb do you think I am? Do you really think this pretty girl in a bathing suit is going to make me buy your game? Cause its not. However, you are creeping out my girlfriend with this weird model girl asking me to come over so she can tell me stuff I don't care about and flash her boobs at me. So I think I will do anything else but talk with your booth babe.
As for female casters, I sure one will show up at some point and she will be awesome. The internet will treat her poorly, as it always does and we will be embarrassed at we always are.
The female casters from WOL are all busy doing other things now. Kelly is busy with Alliance dota 2 team. Foxy is busy with her meltdown bars. The TL shoutcaster page is outdated cause I don't hear about many of them in list casting sc2 hots (edit: this goes for both man and woman casters.) Maybe some other ladies will give give it a go shoutcasting for hots. Just gotta wait and see.
Nice link Plansix, we seem to think similarly on such issues. Tbh I find the attitude of the community appallingly sexist, but in the other sense. I don't see the abuse really, as I don't delve into twitch or reddit, I do see the fawning sucking up that occurs towards many a female, and the lecherous comments every time an attractive girl appears at an event.
its a constant battle between girls abusing the fact that they are girls vs the ones that complain about girls who do this making men take them less seriously
at the end of the day its idiots on both sides ruining it for everyone and this topic sucks
On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list.
Yeah and sexism is always at the top of the list, always without any exceptions. Because everybody is a bad sexist and hinders women in every aspect of the their lifes.
For me this whole thing is not so much about deep voices or any of that. It is really hard to become a known caster these days, if have to put in a shitton of effort to make it to the top and be considered a good caster. Since a lot of the "big" casters build their image and popularity from the scratch of sc2.
These days you have to put in a shitton of effort to get into the casting scene like nathanias is doing right now, i m not saying that the casters that build their image from the start arent putting in a lot of effort, artosis and khaldor (!!) are prime examples of a really great work ethic. A lot of casters also had a history in esports, as a caster or a progamer.
So if you play the numbers game on female vs males you also have to consider that most of the casters that are known right now also had a big history of esports in general which makes the numbers factors even bigger.
Just because its not the number one reason doesn't mean it isn't real. I know guys out there that would like to think that SC2 and gaming isn't a misogynistic mess sometimes, but we kinda are. People can claim to the high heavens that it isn't an issue, but all those claims are disprove when a girl puts out a youtube video about girl stereotypes in video games and get rape threats in response.
Of course, there is this to make us all feel better(not a lot to do with gaming, but still having to do with the topic)
On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote: [quote] She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
Just to say, "Europe" doesn't have *a* culture, it has a bunch of very very different cultures (swedes and spaniards have almost nothing in common...). And Japan is very different from all of that...
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
Literally all of those people have been mentioned in the thread. Tara just made a thread in Blogs discussing women in E-sports more generally, and was interacting with people in there.
There are plenty of salient points in the thread, interesting avenues of discussion. Equally it's not just a 'why don't women cast' thread at all, but a more general discussion, including the 'why are women received poorly by many' discussion, in which case that's something in which male input more than female is probably actually useful.
I mean by all means come into a thread, skim it and leave, but don't get on your high horse while doing it.
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former.
I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy.
For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former.
I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy.
For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance
Yeah, well the guys will want to say "she is only popular because she has boobs" when the truth is that they are popular because they bust their ass making a broadcast people want to watch. Its the balance argument for streaming.
In game: I could win if "Terran/Protoss/Zerg" wasn't totally IMBA and my opponent didn't all in.
On Stream: I would have more viewers if I was a girl and dressed slutty.
But in reality, they can't admit they lost due to their own mistakes and no one wants to watch them because they are boring.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too...
This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored.
Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team."
Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife."
Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too...
But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently.
Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular...
We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay".
Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that...
They are alone in their struggle...
The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
It is unclear? Do you really want to tell us that LOL is a more mature community than the starcraft one? You have to be kidding me.
The LOL community is a perceived a lot more immature than the sc2 community if you go by memes or how they represent themselves. And now you are telling me they are less "sexist" than sc2?
A lot of people get the whole "esports" thing wrong imho. If you play a game you do it for fun in the first place and THEN you figure out that you are acutally good at it. And maybe THEN you decide to put in a lot of effort to become pro. In the bnet nobody knows if you are female, male or whatever unless you decide to do so.
If you decide to be a caster this thing is a whole different story. But since you are very general here i try to be more specific.
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former.
I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy.
For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance
Yeah, well the guys will want to say "she is only popular because she has boobs" when the truth is that they are popular because they bust their ass making a broadcast people want to watch. Its the balance argument for streaming.
In game: I could win if "Terran/Protoss/Zerg" wasn't totally IMBA and my opponent didn't all in.
On Stream: I would have more viewers if I was a girl and dressed slutty.
But in reality, they can't admit they lost due to their own mistakes and no one wants to watch them because they are boring.
Sry but this is just plain bullshit. How the hell is this a one way street?
Ofc a girl playing a decent level will get a LOT MORE viewers than a guy at the same level that puts in the same amount of effort. You have to be blind to ignore that.
But that is also true for other aspects of the sc2 esports scene:
Foreigners or/and people on known clans will get a shitload more viewers than equally skilled or even a lot better skilled koreans will get. They also will get a shitload more money being on foreign teams.
Do you think idra, stephano, grubby etc. would get the same amount of viewers if they would be equally skilled koreans? I dont think so.
Ofc you also have to put in a lot of effort, time and dedication but saying that they dont have any advantages over a korean is just dishonest.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too...
This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored.
Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team."
Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife."
Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too...
But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently.
Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular...
We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay".
Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that...
They are alone in their struggle...
The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life.
I am going to point you back to this post right here:
Where a guy discusses how he visits a thread on reddit where a woman talks about the difficulties of getting accepted by the community. In response the guys turn around and talk about how hard it is for them and dismiss her complaints as baseless. It is shockingly similar to the route you took this thread right now.
But I am sort of done with this discussion for now. I am not going to break through to any of the young men in this thread going: "Girls don't have it hard, let me tell you all about how its hard for me. Guys have all the same problems and girls are are just complaining about stuff that happens to everyone."
[ninazerg said] Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!"
To be fair the OP also asked specifically about whether the problem is sexism etc. But I too would much prefer the thread you and zombiegrub are wishing for.
On July 30 2013 03:52 Talin wrote: I'm going to be extremely vague here, but there was a really good caster for one either iccup/esv or glhf.tv back in 2011ish. I used to mention her every time female players/casters were talked about, but her name eludes me now.
She had a really good voice, and was quite knowledgeable about the game, very confident and easy to listen to. It's unfortunate that she received very little attention, she was genuinely better than a number of male casters that rose to some prominence later on.
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
[ninazerg said] Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!"
To be fair the OP also asked specifically about whether the problem is sexism etc. But I too would much prefer the thread you and zombiegrub are wishing for.
On July 30 2013 03:52 Talin wrote: I'm going to be extremely vague here, but there was a really good caster for one either iccup/esv or glhf.tv back in 2011ish. I used to mention her every time female players/casters were talked about, but her name eludes me now.
She had a really good voice, and was quite knowledgeable about the game, very confident and easy to listen to. It's unfortunate that she received very little attention, she was genuinely better than a number of male casters that rose to some prominence later on.
She has a glorious voice for casting, at least by my tastes. Quite impressed with that link, shame that she exited the scene/never came to prominence.
It is hard as fuck to break into a casting gig, no matter how good you are it's up to other people to give you that opportunity. I've long felt that it's too closed a shop, regardless of the issue in the OP and there should be more exposure of unknown casters via 'casting searches' and stuff like that.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too...
This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored.
Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team."
Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife."
Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too...
But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently.
Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular...
We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay".
Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that...
They are alone in their struggle...
The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life.
I am going to point you back to this post right here:
Where a guy discusses how he visits a thread on reddit where a woman talks about the difficulties of getting accepted by the community. In response the guys turn around and talk about how hard it is for them and dismiss her complaints as baseless. It is shockingly similar to the route you took this thread right now.
But I am sort of done with this discussion for now. I am not going to break through to any of the young men in this thread going: "Girls don't have it hard, let me tell you all about how its hard for me. Guys have all the same problems and girls are are just complaining about stuff that happens to everyone."
That's pretty much because they are. Females have a more extreme case, but it can be used to their own advantage. Tara Babcock and Mia Rose are perfect examples of said females using 'increased attention' to their advantage. When have the potential to use your own gender to your own advantage (and please don't say they can't, because they can and they do all the time), you are subject to increased criticism because you have the ability to increase your own popularity far above what the average male player/personality can, simply because of the fact that they are 'female.'
This is by no means an excuse for the insults hurled at them, but to expect to have all the benefits of increased attention due to gender without accepting the negatives is hilarious.
And before you go spouting nonsense how I'm wrong, how I'm a young man and immature, etc. that's essentially what Tara Babcock said in some of her youtube videos about women in E-Sports in general. Women will get increased attention in E-Sports because they are rare, and as such, they need to be ready to deal with the increased criticism/trolling/hate that will come with said increased attention.
On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote: As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
This comment here highlights what I feel to be one the biggest problems with having these types of debates.
You see a whole lot of dudes arguing back and forth, flinging labels at each other like "Sexist Misogynist" if they figure one set of reasons and "White Knight" if they've deduced an opposing set of reasons, with the girls on the sidelines wondering when the fuck they get to talk.
You've posted, I think, twice in this thread offering just a tiny bit of insight into your own experience, and it's damn shame we can't have more of that from the women who have to actually deal with this shit. I would love to hear from women who have tried to get into the job and failed/succeeded, and have them share with us what variables they hold responsible for their failure/success.
At the end of the day, OP is probably asking the wrong set of questions. I believe the question to be asked here, if there is a genuine interest in the subject should be: "Hey guys, I'm interested in the distribution (lack thereof) of female casters and personalities in E-Sports. How can I get in touch with some of the more well-known women in E-Sports? Also, if you're a woman who's tried breaking into the scene, I'd love to hear about your experience as well, please contact me via: whiteknightprogamer@sexistmysogynist.com if you'd be interested in answering some of my questions!"
On July 29 2013 03:43 DeathProfessor wrote: I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
My dream is that SOE cast! Please do it SOE!
Actually, didn't soe cast WCS some last year with Grubby and Kaelaris? Not hte finals anywhere but the national events that they went all over doing.
She did cast with us, as well as her and I doing the WCS Spain alone. However, now she's far more heavily involved in the DotA scene now.
On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote: League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
We talked shit about ailuj being on MLG stream vs Losira, playing a joke of a game.
We were impressed with that platinum protoss guy who almost took a game off Parting (might be off on the name there).
The difference at the end was results and the quality of game that was showed.
people who are talking about aujlie or wahtever her name is, where is she now lol. she quit at diamond league i think but she was "on a team" they "wanted her on the team".
most "girl gamers" i see are pretenders
the problem will always be that if you are not good, you will not be accepted. when i went to basketball camp i had been playing AAU since i was old enough, we won states 2 years in a row and i was good, naturally i was automatically accepted by my peers at these camps but my friend who was not very good, clearly did not fit in as well as me.
this is life. is it unfair? sure but thats how it is. when girl gamers start to win tournys and they STILL give her shit, then we can revisit such topics. im fairly sure no one shit talks flo but im 100 percent sure they shittalk kellymilkies, ajuile, and lauren elise. they are not doing it because they are women, they are doing it because they are pretenders and get attention because they are 1 girl in a room of 1000 guys no matter how little they care about the game or how bad they are
when you are in an area for a long time with 0 women and randomly one shows up, no matter how unattractive the offer is it becomes better over time.
Imho it's pretty simple: If more Woman would play, more Woman would play good, acceptance of Woman would go up and due to now having a broader base more (good) casters would emerge.
This is btw. hardly an E-Sports issue... There are way less women in normal sporst broadcasting too and if they are often former active players that take the"experts" role... And even here stations seem to prefer Men?
I don't see much Drama/Insults.. But thats most probably because i don't go to Twitter and never start Twitch chat. All i see in treads like these are a ton of people white knighting and no actual women talking about the GENERAL"issue" (which is hardly an e-sports one). I mean.. Do you also go to forums and complain that there are not enough women in motorsports?
Btw: Women are also not exactly helping their case... Just look at Dota2 female teams... They are basically 100% pure marketing tools. Having female "progamers" battling it out against casters is also not exactly helping the case (at least if they don't win XX-0/1, it's more like these dumb boxing matches between a (bad/terrible) man and a woman..
On July 30 2013 16:12 Velr wrote: Imho it's pretty simple: If more Woman would play, more Woman would play good, acceptance of Woman would go up and due to now having a broader base more (good) casters would emerge.
This is btw. hardly an E-Sports issue... There are way less women in normal sporst broadcasting too and if they are often former active players that take the"experts" role... And even here stations seem to prefer Men?
I don't see much Drama/Insults.. But thats most probably because i don't go to Twitter and never start Twitch chat. All i see in treads like these are a ton of people white knighting and no actual women talking about the GENERAL"issue" (which is hardly an e-sports one). I mean.. Do you also go to forums and complain that there are not enough women in motorsports?
Btw: Women are also not exactly helping their case... Just look at Dota2 female teams... They are basically 100% pure marketing tools. Having female "progamers" battling it out against casters is also not exactly helping the case (at least if they don't win XX-0/1, it's more like these dumb boxing matches between a (bad/terrible) man and a woman..
do you remember "sirens". so out of all the good female league players thats who emerged? its not a sexist thing lol. its an accomplishment thing. there is probably NO ONE ON EARTH who can be good and be kept down at ANYTHING for long these days. if you are good, you will get respect. look at scarlett. shes a he and no one gives a shit anymore. you are a gamer, gamers are on the internet and everyone on the internet is the same gender. be good get praise be bad get the full force of internet hate
On July 30 2013 16:12 Velr wrote: Imho it's pretty simple: If more Woman would play, more Woman would play good, acceptance of Woman would go up and due to now having a broader base more (good) casters would emerge.
This is btw. hardly an E-Sports issue... There are way less women in normal sporst broadcasting too and if they are often former active players that take the"experts" role... And even here stations seem to prefer Men?
I don't see much Drama/Insults.. But thats most probably because i don't go to Twitter and never start Twitch chat. All i see in treads like these are a ton of people white knighting and no actual women talking about the GENERAL"issue" (which is hardly an e-sports one). I mean.. Do you also go to forums and complain that there are not enough women in motorsports?
Btw: Women are also not exactly helping their case... Just look at Dota2 female teams... They are basically 100% pure marketing tools. Having female "progamers" battling it out against casters is also not exactly helping the case (at least if they don't win XX-0/1, it's more like these dumb boxing matches between a (bad/terrible) man and a woman..
I agree completely with you. Posts like these are simply clueless about the reality of it. Significant gender Base = MC or caster of same gender
Just look at afternoon talk show TV, almost 100% constists of women. From Oprah to Ellen. Good luck to the guy trying to break into afternoon talk show television.
On July 30 2013 16:11 Gr33n wrote: people who are talking about aujlie or wahtever her name is, where is she now lol. she quit at diamond league i think but she was "on a team" they "wanted her on the team".
most "girl gamers" i see are pretenders
the problem will always be that if you are not good, you will not be accepted. when i went to basketball camp i had been playing AAU since i was old enough, we won states 2 years in a row and i was good, naturally i was automatically accepted by my peers at these camps but my friend who was not very good, clearly did not fit in as well as me.
this is life. is it unfair? sure but thats how it is. when girl gamers start to win tournys and they STILL give her shit, then we can revisit such topics. im fairly sure no one shit talks flo but im 100 percent sure they shittalk kellymilkies, ajuile, and lauren elise. they are not doing it because they are women, they are doing it because they are pretenders and get attention because they are 1 girl in a room of 1000 guys no matter how little they care about the game or how bad they are
when you are in an area for a long time with 0 women and randomly one shows up, no matter how unattractive the offer is it becomes better over time.
So your conclusions are "most girls are pretenders" and "don't care about the game." Also, you named three people there. So you should provide an argument for each one please.
The problem is you provided no evidence to support your claim. I wouldn't even know where to start reconstructing your argument. Here's my try.
1)If girls don't win tournaments, they are pretenders and don't care about the game. < Terrible false assumption. 2) Girls don't win tournaments. 3) Girls are pretenders and don't care about the game.
Now, that might be considered "cheap," but that's basically what you're saying. No basis in logic.
On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
When the community chased off Milkes they did not chase away "all women casters" they simply chased off milkes. Milkes and Moletrap being lambasted for their voices is what happened. You knowing female casters without Milkes' or Moltrap's voice problems does not change what happened to Milkes and Moletrap.
You seem to think any comment brought up about Milkes is a comment for all women.
That's not what happened at all. I said separate articulation and voice because they aren't the same thing yet you continue to pick at the overlap. I've been saying ignore the sexism and other bullshit. If you cast you are going to be bombarded regardless. You try to make it sound like I wasn't there when I was deep in the trenches trying to get rid of the shit. I've heard it all bud. Don't think so? Check my filter.
Wait, let me get this straight.
When someone says that milkes and moletrap were chased away for similar reasons; you think that person is bringing up sexism? Did you literally tell me to stop bringing up sexism because I'm talking about moletrap getting chased off for similar reasons that Milkes was chased off?
Do you not read what you're saying before posting?
On July 30 2013 16:11 Gr33n wrote: people who are talking about aujlie or wahtever her name is, where is she now lol. she quit at diamond league i think but she was "on a team" they "wanted her on the team".
most "girl gamers" i see are pretenders
the problem will always be that if you are not good, you will not be accepted. when i went to basketball camp i had been playing AAU since i was old enough, we won states 2 years in a row and i was good, naturally i was automatically accepted by my peers at these camps but my friend who was not very good, clearly did not fit in as well as me.
this is life. is it unfair? sure but thats how it is. when girl gamers start to win tournys and they STILL give her shit, then we can revisit such topics. im fairly sure no one shit talks flo but im 100 percent sure they shittalk kellymilkies, ajuile, and lauren elise. they are not doing it because they are women, they are doing it because they are pretenders and get attention because they are 1 girl in a room of 1000 guys no matter how little they care about the game or how bad they are
when you are in an area for a long time with 0 women and randomly one shows up, no matter how unattractive the offer is it becomes better over time.
So your conclusions are "most girls are pretenders" and "don't care about the game." Also, you named three people there.
The problem is you provided no evidence to support your claim. I wouldn't even know where to start reconstructing your argument. Here's my try.
1)If girls don't win tournaments, they are pretenders and don't care about the game. < Terrible false assumption. 2) Girls don't win tournaments. 3) Girls are pretenders and don't care about the game.
Now, that might be considered "cheap," but that's basically what you're saying. No basis in logic.
By this logic; we should tar and feather the likes of Tasteless, DJwheat, Bitter, rotter, pajamas, Khaldor, artosis, incontrol, machine, Nony, Etc... They never win anything, they must all be pretenders.
Oh wait, winning tournaments has NEVER been a requirement to become a caster.
Milkies - chased away for being a bad caster moletrap - same deal no one is sexist who matters lol
WHO ELSE IS THERE. the reason there are no other girls big in the game is that no other girls LIKE the game. as the "siren video" shows 90 percent of league is played by men, NINE ZERO. im willing to bet even more percentage is male played for sc2. as a result, less girls are showcased but more importantly less girls who attempt to get good at playing or casting actually are good at playing or casting
its so much easier for a DECENT girl caster to get noticed then a decent male caster. its my belief that because there are virtually no females playing sc2 if there was EVER a single truly decent female caster she would get a first class ticket to the front of the line. that girl zombie whatever i watched her cast, she defers to her partner, her voice is meh and what are her credentials? she didnt offer any insight so is she a play by play rather then analytical caster? she didnt talk much is she scared of speaking over others or maybe she isnt that practiced and doesnt take openings or have synergy with this guy caste shes with
"why are there no female casters" answer - because there are currently no good female casters that we know of
This is a pretty good reference to casters who have public accounts they keep up to date.
The question is how many women have demonstrated a high level knowledge of starcraft? Not many. You can debate the reasons for it, but the best, most loved casters are the analysts who obtained and maintain a somewhat high level of play. Incontrol, Rotterdam, idra, Take, Artosis, Engine, Apollo, these are the favorites. Who do people complain about? SNM, Whiplash, Totalbiscuit, Robin, Wolf, and a ton of others you might not have even heard of.
So yeah, an accomplished female player is probably your best source for a female caster. We have some ladies in the scene who can hold GM and make showings at tournaments, any of them would probably be fine casters.
On July 30 2013 16:50 Gr33n wrote: Milkies - chased away for being a bad caster moletrap - same deal no one is sexist who matters lol
WHO ELSE IS THERE. the reason there are no other girls big in the game is that no other girls LIKE the game. as the "siren video" shows 90 percent of league is played by men, NINE ZERO. im willing to bet even more percentage is male played for sc2. as a result, less girls are showcased but more importantly less girls who attempt to get good at playing or casting actually are good at playing or casting
its so much easier for a DECENT girl caster to get noticed then a decent male caster. its my belief that because there are virtually no females playing sc2 if there was EVER a single truly decent female caster she would get a first class ticket to the front of the line. that girl zombie whatever i watched her cast, she defers to her partner, her voice is meh and what are her credentials? she didnt offer any insight so is she a play by play rather then analytical caster? she didnt talk much is she scared of speaking over others or maybe she isnt that practiced and doesnt take openings or have synergy with this guy caste shes with
"why are there no female casters" answer - because there are currently no good female casters that we know of
I love how you dodged my post. You already bad mouthed 3 female gamers/casters, while providing no evidence. Now you're bad mouthing another. She's Master league.
What league are you in man? Not that it matters, but I will find it funny when I find out you're bad mouthing your superiors (in rank). Her game knowledge is superior to yours. THat's why you don't understand. This is often the case when people bm casters. I find it funny when people like you bm axslav and gretorp for being nubs when they are gms or former gms.
On July 30 2013 16:50 Gr33n wrote: Milkies - chased away for being a bad caster moletrap - same deal no one is sexist who matters lol
WHO ELSE IS THERE. the reason there are no other girls big in the game is that no other girls LIKE the game. as the "siren video" shows 90 percent of league is played by men, NINE ZERO. im willing to bet even more percentage is male played for sc2. as a result, less girls are showcased but more importantly less girls who attempt to get good at playing or casting actually are good at playing or casting
its so much easier for a DECENT girl caster to get noticed then a decent male caster. its my belief that because there are virtually no females playing sc2 if there was EVER a single truly decent female caster she would get a first class ticket to the front of the line. that girl zombie whatever i watched her cast, she defers to her partner, her voice is meh and what are her credentials? she didnt offer any insight so is she a play by play rather then analytical caster? she didnt talk much is she scared of speaking over others or maybe she isnt that practiced and doesnt take openings or have synergy with this guy caste shes with
"why are there no female casters" answer - because there are currently no good female casters that we know of
I love how you dodged my post. You already bad mouthed 3 female gamers/casters, while providing no evidence. Now you're bad mouthing another. She's Master league.
What league are you in man? Not that it matters, but I will find it funny when I find out you're bad mouthing your superiors (in rank). Her game knowledge is superior to yours. THat's why you don't understand. This is often the case when people bm casters. I find it funny when people like you bm axslav and gretorp for being nubs when they are gms or former gms.
Rank doesn't always transfer over to game knowledge. Not being GM doesn't mean you don't have a strong grasp of how the matchups play out and solid theories on what combinations or situations look good for a player. Additionally, it's not sufficient that her knowledge be better than the avg person. It needs to be far better, offer something interesting and be presented in an intelligible and enjoyable manner.
The cutthroat talent theory isn't that great either. Chobra absolutely murders everyone else. Everyone else who tried to translate for broadcast. Only Smix has begun to approach Chobra.
On July 30 2013 16:50 Gr33n wrote: Milkies - chased away for being a bad caster moletrap - same deal no one is sexist who matters lol
WHO ELSE IS THERE. the reason there are no other girls big in the game is that no other girls LIKE the game. as the "siren video" shows 90 percent of league is played by men, NINE ZERO. im willing to bet even more percentage is male played for sc2. as a result, less girls are showcased but more importantly less girls who attempt to get good at playing or casting actually are good at playing or casting
its so much easier for a DECENT girl caster to get noticed then a decent male caster. its my belief that because there are virtually no females playing sc2 if there was EVER a single truly decent female caster she would get a first class ticket to the front of the line. that girl zombie whatever i watched her cast, she defers to her partner, her voice is meh and what are her credentials? she didnt offer any insight so is she a play by play rather then analytical caster? she didnt talk much is she scared of speaking over others or maybe she isnt that practiced and doesnt take openings or have synergy with this guy caste shes with
"why are there no female casters" answer - because there are currently no good female casters that we know of
I love how you dodged my post. You already bad mouthed 3 female gamers/casters, while providing no evidence. Now you're bad mouthing another. She's Master league.
What league are you in man? Not that it matters, but I will find it funny when I find out you're bad mouthing your superiors (in rank). Her game knowledge is superior to yours. THat's why you don't understand. This is often the case when people bm casters. I find it funny when people like you bm axslav and gretorp for being nubs when they are gms or former gms.
Rank doesn't always transfer over to game knowledge. Not being GM doesn't mean you don't have a strong grasp of how the matchups play out and solid theories on what combinations or situations look good for a player. Additionally, it's not sufficient that her knowledge be better than the avg person. It needs to be far better, offer something interesting and be presented in an intelligible and enjoyable manner.
The cutthroat talent theory isn't that great either. Chobra absolutely murders everyone else. Everyone else who tried to translate for broadcast. Only Smix has begun to approach Chobra.
Lol, give me a break man. If you want to have your games casted by toddlers or girls in bikinis or some smuck in a fancy suit or whatever flloats your boat, that's fine.
BUT, don't tell me rank doesn't matter. I'll take a high master/grand master any day of the week over someone who's good at articulation.
This is a pretty good reference to casters who have public accounts they keep up to date.
The question is how many women have demonstrated a high level knowledge of starcraft? Not many. You can debate the reasons for it, but the best, most loved casters are the analysts who obtained and maintain a somewhat high level of play. Incontrol, Rotterdam, idra, Take, Artosis, Engine, Apollo, these are the favorites. Who do people complain about? SNM, Whiplash, Totalbiscuit, Robin, Wolf, and a ton of others you might not have even heard of.
So yeah, an accomplished female player is probably your best source for a female caster. We have some ladies in the scene who can hold GM and make showings at tournaments, any of them would probably be fine casters.
What are you talking about?
Wolf and Khaldor are professional casters at GOM, Totalbiscuit has a HUGE fanbase, DJWheat is eSports gold, DOA and Catspajamas was a fantastic duo, Husky has a ridiculously massive following.
A much tinier community complains about those guys than love them.
Heck, if your link is accurate, it takes silver league knowledge to a professional job as a caster.
Skill in the game is not what determines whether someone is a caster.
I'll try to cover all that's been said here but it might get lenghty...
First of I'm a girl, I work for Millenium (yes, I have a contract and all), I am in charge of the Starcraft 2 section of millenium.org website and I cast on the TV. I am top diamond on EU, never got to Masters T_T especially now my playing time has been drastically reduced. Since I joined Millenium I have no time to play anymore but I still watch as many streams as humanly possible. So I am pretty much a huge starcraft nerd, only I got tits, yeah...
I do believe I got in Millenium mostly because I'm a girl and Millenium's manager thought he'd give me a chance. I worked for free during 5 months total and I started on the TV by hosting a show with MaddeLisk where I would be translating her interactions with the French viewers essentially. Trust me when I say I worked my ass off, and I still do. I now have grown to appear multiple times a week on the TV, in multiple shows and casting Zotac on sundays as well as events like DreamHack or the upcoming ASUS ROG along with the main caster of Millenium's TV.
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
So about "female" casters and everything that has been said in this thread, my viewpoint is exactly what some guy said :
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
On July 30 2013 16:50 Gr33n wrote: Milkies - chased away for being a bad caster moletrap - same deal no one is sexist who matters lol
WHO ELSE IS THERE. the reason there are no other girls big in the game is that no other girls LIKE the game. as the "siren video" shows 90 percent of league is played by men, NINE ZERO. im willing to bet even more percentage is male played for sc2. as a result, less girls are showcased but more importantly less girls who attempt to get good at playing or casting actually are good at playing or casting
its so much easier for a DECENT girl caster to get noticed then a decent male caster. its my belief that because there are virtually no females playing sc2 if there was EVER a single truly decent female caster she would get a first class ticket to the front of the line. that girl zombie whatever i watched her cast, she defers to her partner, her voice is meh and what are her credentials? she didnt offer any insight so is she a play by play rather then analytical caster? she didnt talk much is she scared of speaking over others or maybe she isnt that practiced and doesnt take openings or have synergy with this guy caste shes with
"why are there no female casters" answer - because there are currently no good female casters that we know of
I love how you dodged my post. You already bad mouthed 3 female gamers/casters, while providing no evidence. Now you're bad mouthing another. She's Master league.
What league are you in man? Not that it matters, but I will find it funny when I find out you're bad mouthing your superiors (in rank). Her game knowledge is superior to yours. THat's why you don't understand. This is often the case when people bm casters. I find it funny when people like you bm axslav and gretorp for being nubs when they are gms or former gms.
Rank doesn't always transfer over to game knowledge. Not being GM doesn't mean you don't have a strong grasp of how the matchups play out and solid theories on what combinations or situations look good for a player. Additionally, it's not sufficient that her knowledge be better than the avg person. It needs to be far better, offer something interesting and be presented in an intelligible and enjoyable manner.
The cutthroat talent theory isn't that great either. Chobra absolutely murders everyone else. Everyone else who tried to translate for broadcast. Only Smix has begun to approach Chobra.
Lol, give me a break man. If you want to have your games casted by toddlers or girls in bikinis or some smuck in a fancy suit or whatever flloats your boat, that's fine.
BUT, don't tell me rank doesn't matter. I'll take a high master/grand master any day of the week over someone who's good at articulation.
Agree with you 100% man. If it's not Artosis, or a pro gamer casting, I can't be bothered to unmute.
On July 30 2013 17:08 Gr33n wrote: artosis is masters and everyone calls him the greatest mind in sc2.
so since ive been masters as all 3 races am i also capable of being a smart person in sc2? according to you that makes me qualified
im not shit talking FEMALES im bashing bad sc2 casters. i dislike male ones too what?
list the good girl casters. go ahead
i will respond to any caster you list but please list some female casters
"You've been masters" so you're not masters. Let's get that out of the way.
You are bashing females. Look at the first premise of your arguement: "1)If girls don't win tournaments, they are pretenders and don't care about the game. "
I don't need to provide you with any female casters. Though I've seen several master league females I have been impressed with. THey do exist, though you are futilely trying to prove otherwise.
I'll try to cover all that's been said here but it might get lenghty...
First of I'm a girl, I work for Millenium (yes, I have a contract and all), I am in charge of the Starcraft 2 section of millenium.org website and I cast on the TV. I am top diamond on EU, never got to Masters T_T especially now my playing time has been drastically reduced. Since I joined Millenium I have no time to play anymore but I still watch as many streams as humanly possible. So I am pretty much a huge starcraft nerd, only I got tits, yeah...
I do believe I got in Millenium mostly because I'm a girl and Millenium's manager thought he'd give me a chance. I worked for free during 5 months total and I started on the TV by hosting a show with MaddeLisk where I would be translating her interactions with the French viewers essentially. Trust me when I say I worked my ass off, and I still do. I now have grown to appear multiple times a week on the TV, in multiple shows and casting Zotac on sundays as well as events like DreamHack or the upcoming ASUS ROG along with the main caster of Millenium's TV.
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
So about "female" casters and everything that has been said in this thread, my viewpoint is exactly what some guy said :
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
this is EXACTLY what i said. if you are a good caster male or female, we want to hear you cast tournys. we are all genderless on the internet
also you are the minority. the girls who are popular are obvious to see why. just go watch streams and take note of webcams. female casters are a voice. no one sees "what she looks like" no one judges a female caster on superficial aspects so if there are good female casters TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS, the tournys will use them ALLLLLLLLLLLLL day.
my question remains, where are all the female casters at? answer - atm there are not any good ones that we have heard about but there are PLENTY of good female PLAYERS which have NOTHING to do with CASTING
and no im masters as we speak lol guy or girl who cant seem to move past this? i came back after a 2 year break and got masters on two accounts without knowing anything about the game, new strats, new units, my mechanics started off like shit but i got in because im just faster then everyone.
my best attribute is my game understanding and I used to coach people back in the day who can attest to my ability to articulate and "teach" people the game. im qualified to make such posts but way to derail a topic of which the question
"where are the female casters at" turns into "hey guy i bet ur not masters"
well done lol
and to my point about pretenders? there are so many female (and male pretenders)
where is doa? he clearly wasnt that into sc2 that hes now casting league. if he cared about sc2 he woulda tried to keep making it as a caster. me personally i hate league and value sc2 above it to such a degree the thought of ditching sc2 for league hurts my soul.
where is aujile? she doesnt even play sc2 that i can see
where is kellymilkies? dota 2. clearly she loved sc2
pretenders dont have a sex, they are people who pretend they like games or say they are more into the games then they really are. idn about you but most of the "gamers" hate girls who pretend to be gamers more then anything else. girls who pretend to be "nerds" but are good looking and bad at the game are not real nerds. generally they are doing it for attention or if they are not intentionally doing it, dont mind its happening
- this is how i feel about pretenders. i used to play basketball for my high school and even though i was the starting shooting guard, i wasnt friends with ANYONE because i was a nerd.
female casters if they are good WILL BE HIRED/NOTICED/TREATED FAIRLY stop pretending its sexism IT IS NOT
I'll try to cover all that's been said here but it might get lenghty...
First of I'm a girl, I work for Millenium (yes, I have a contract and all), I am in charge of the Starcraft 2 section of millenium.org website and I cast on the TV. I am top diamond on EU, never got to Masters T_T especially now my playing time has been drastically reduced. Since I joined Millenium I have no time to play anymore but I still watch as many streams as humanly possible. So I am pretty much a huge starcraft nerd, only I got tits, yeah...
I do believe I got in Millenium mostly because I'm a girl and Millenium's manager thought he'd give me a chance. I worked for free during 5 months total and I started on the TV by hosting a show with MaddeLisk where I would be translating her interactions with the French viewers essentially. Trust me when I say I worked my ass off, and I still do. I now have grown to appear multiple times a week on the TV, in multiple shows and casting Zotac on sundays as well as events like DreamHack or the upcoming ASUS ROG along with the main caster of Millenium's TV.
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
So about "female" casters and everything that has been said in this thread, my viewpoint is exactly what some guy said :
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
this is EXACTLY what i said. if you are a good caster male or female, we want to hear you cast tournys. we are all genderless on the internet
also you are the minority. the girls who are popular are obvious to see why. just go watch streams. female casters are a voice. no one sees "what she looks like" no one judges a female caster on superficial aspects so if there are good female casters TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS, the tournys will use them ALLLLLLLLLLLLL day.
my question remains, where are all the female casters at? answer - atm there are not any good ones that we have heard about but there are PLENTY of good female PLAYERS which have NOTHING to do with CASTING
and no im masters as we speak lol guy or girl who cant seem to move past this? i came back after a 2 year break and got masters on two accounts without knowing anything about the game, new strats, new units, my mechanics started off like shit but i got in because im just faster then everyone.
my best attribute is my game understanding and I used to coach people back in the day who can attest to my ability to articulate and "teach" people the game. im qualified to make such posts but way to derail a topic of which the question
"where are the female casters at" turns into "hey guy i bet ur not masters"
well done lol
Scarlett...
that's one competitive pro gamer. The rest are bad, I don't know how you come up with all these "good" female players.
I'm not sure that's 'exactly' what you said in fairness Gr33n.
I do tend to agree with your viewpoint in certain respect. Get on with it, stop complaining and making 'The perception of women in E-sports' videos, and go put in some graft. I am slightly exaggerating here, probably articulating myself a bit harshly but the sentiment is genuine.
I'll try to cover all that's been said here but it might get lenghty...
First of I'm a girl, I work for Millenium (yes, I have a contract and all), I am in charge of the Starcraft 2 section of millenium.org website and I cast on the TV. I am top diamond on EU, never got to Masters T_T especially now my playing time has been drastically reduced. Since I joined Millenium I have no time to play anymore but I still watch as many streams as humanly possible. So I am pretty much a huge starcraft nerd, only I got tits, yeah...
I do believe I got in Millenium mostly because I'm a girl and Millenium's manager thought he'd give me a chance. I worked for free during 5 months total and I started on the TV by hosting a show with MaddeLisk where I would be translating her interactions with the French viewers essentially. Trust me when I say I worked my ass off, and I still do. I now have grown to appear multiple times a week on the TV, in multiple shows and casting Zotac on sundays as well as events like DreamHack or the upcoming ASUS ROG along with the main caster of Millenium's TV.
I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
So about "female" casters and everything that has been said in this thread, my viewpoint is exactly what some guy said :
On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote: if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
this is EXACTLY what i said. if you are a good caster male or female, we want to hear you cast tournys. we are all genderless on the internet
also you are the minority. the girls who are popular are obvious to see why. just go watch streams. female casters are a voice. no one sees "what she looks like" no one judges a female caster on superficial aspects so if there are good female casters TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS, the tournys will use them ALLLLLLLLLLLLL day.
my question remains, where are all the female casters at? answer - atm there are not any good ones that we have heard about but there are PLENTY of good female PLAYERS which have NOTHING to do with CASTING
and no im masters as we speak lol guy or girl who cant seem to move past this? i came back after a 2 year break and got masters on two accounts without knowing anything about the game, new strats, new units, my mechanics started off like shit but i got in because im just faster then everyone.
my best attribute is my game understanding and I used to coach people back in the day who can attest to my ability to articulate and "teach" people the game. im qualified to make such posts but way to derail a topic of which the question
"where are the female casters at" turns into "hey guy i bet ur not masters"
well done lol
Scarlett...
that's one competitive pro gamer. The rest are bad, I don't know how you come up with all these "good" female players.
scarlett is amazing and so is tilia but we are treading on some unsteady ground here right? from a physical standpoint they are men, they have brain functions men do BUT they identify with women? so does that give them biological similarity to women? im not educated enough in this field to say but nor are you and anyone else posting on this topic
On July 30 2013 16:50 darkscream wrote: Incontrol, Rotterdam, idra, Take, Artosis, Engine, Apollo, these are the favorites. Who do people complain about? SNM, Whiplash, Totalbiscuit, Robin, Wolf, and a ton of others you might not have even heard of.
Couple hundred guys on the internet "THE PEOPLE" does not make. The people you speak of don't even make for a very meaningful chunk of the SC2 audience.
TB is a premier SC2 caster, Wolf is in pretty good standing as well. The same people also complain about the Plott brothers not being skilled and knowledgeable enough, does that make them lesser casters, less popular or less in demand? Nope. Day[9] is probably more popular now than a couple years back when was much more in the loop as far as analysis goes. Even Husky could walk into any tournament's caster lineup.
You greatly overestimate the value of in-depth game analysis. Most people in the audience don't know enough about the game, don't pay attention or just don't really give a fuck about intricate timings and build nuances.
Even among the guys on your list, Artosis owes more than half of his popularity to being funny and goofing around with Tasteless, Apollo only got popular once he loosened up and became funny. In fact most of the people you listed as favorites are pretty fucking good as entertainers in their own right.
It's important to understand that people who complain about casters, regardless of gender, are going to do that no matter what. Most of them only do it to flaunt their own knowledge and (presumed) skill by pointing out that somebody who is being paid to commentate Starcraft is wrong and worse than them at the game. Ultimately it's just common gamer elitism that can (and arguably should) be ignored by everyone that matters.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
On July 30 2013 17:14 Thieving Magpie wrote: What are you talking about?
Wolf and Khaldor are professional casters at GOM, Totalbiscuit has a HUGE fanbase, DJWheat is eSports gold, DOA and Catspajamas was a fantastic duo, Husky has a ridiculously massive following.
A much tinier community complains about those guys than love them.
Heck, if your link is accurate, it takes silver league knowledge to a professional job as a caster.
Skill in the game is not what determines whether someone is a caster.
re: accuracy, You have to do a little accepting/believing some people have private smurfs (Khaldor, Tasteless, Day9 fall into this category by their own statements). Like maybe Khaldor isn't hardcore laddering but I doubt he's a silver league terran as that list would depict.
Skill and knowledge of the game absolutely determines how good a caster they are. Have you noticed how the gom stream destroys the official ogn stream in viewers for WCS KR?
And yes, the various esport personalities you listed are popular and that's what gets them gigs, because enough people like THEM enough to want to hear them talk - That number will tune in to hear them talk about anything, not just sc2. For big events they're important, they're hype men. But anyone can GET HYPE. Their commentary is usually atrocious and 100% reliant on the analysis person that gets stuck with them. I am so thankful that really sick observers like adebisi are in the scene, because events that use these casters, you're usually better off following the mouse cursor of the observer for play by play and commentary to get a good picture of the game you're watching. If you just watch the minimap you'll catch drops and attacks that the casters miss and tell you about a minute later ("WHOAH we missed a drop here it did some damage anyway back to the main army")
In the case of what I'd call a "good" caster though, neither is fully shoehorned into being play-by-play or analysis because they both know the game (and to some extent, each other) well enough to always have something insightful to bring to the table. They're well rounded, preferably have competitive experience, Have enough charisma to fill lulls and enough knowledge to call games without having to rely on a partner for half their job. A "good" caster can fill both roles. Your DJwheat, your TB, your Husky.. They don't stand alone very well, as much as we may love them. They can really only do playbyplay and really, almost anyone can provided they're used to talking/screaming for several hours at a time.
Which takes us back around to: What female progamers could even do one of these jobs, let alone both? There's all sorts of decent players from livibee to maddelisk to flo, They've never really come across as high energy charismatic people to me, but maybe they could show that if given the chance. The question is, could they do what Artosis does and fluidly transition between top-tier analysis, play by play and filler? I'd love to see a female caster who could do that. hell i would watch subtitled casts from someone like aphrodite, too. But pluck some random girl from the internet and throw her into that chair when she's gold league in SC2? Not a chance that I'll care, just like I don't much care when TB is casting either.
On July 30 2013 15:12 MrSourGit wrote: I wouldn't wanna hear a women casting my starcraft .
Smix does good at what she does (although she nods her head a hell of a lot) Rachael does a good job of pretending to enjoy what she does.
But no , I don't wanna hear a women cast unless they have been taking steroids for breakfast.
I have to ask myself if you would have the balls to say this in public or to your own mother.
But nevertheless, hilarious, but only because I find sexist jokes funny. Sad for me.
I'd tell my mother , wife and my nan ..... They would all say the same 'we give 2 shits about your stupid fucking games' haha
Nazca , the lady who posted above , you got any links to your casting ? The steroid thing I said is coz women just don't have the passion the blokes do , like Kevin knocke or Apollo or ToD , when something major happens and they are 'OMFG , he hasn't researched centrifugal hooks OMFG HE'S FUCKED '. Kinda passion. If they did and it wasn't grinding/irritating (squeaky voice) then it'd be fine ..... But yet to see that.
Why are some guys in this community so dam hell bent on 'need more women in sc2 !!!!' .... No , you need a women in your real life ..... Work on that fellas.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Completely false. The ONLY difference is that it's not rooted in sexual comments, but in insults of every other kind.
Tbh ZombieGrub's attitude pissed me off, but she's entitled to behave as she wants without getting abuse based on her gender. Nazca's post was nice though, in that it is coming from a woman in the scene, rather than being male conjecture, so that's good.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
where you see a disadvantage i see an advantage. a female personality can use this "negative attention" to shine light on her. if she is good, the haters will dissipate leaving her victorious and vindicated. if she is bad however, your right it will be worse then a male most likely because many of the girls before her were "pretenders"
girls dont wana jump into a guy conversation? thats honestly bullshit. defend yourself its the internet. the guys are not gonna hit you, there are no physical ramifications online for speaking your mind (bill bur ref baby) so DO IT. shut up these chauvinistic idiots with LOGIC AND TALENT
On July 30 2013 17:51 darkscream wrote: Your DJwheat, your TB, your Husky.. They don't stand alone very well, as much as we may love them. They can really only do playbyplay and really, almost anyone can provided they're used to talking/screaming for several hours at a time.
TB and Husky have a following that is very much used to them standing alone. It's a pretty large following. When it comes to actual events, nobody ever gets to stand alone anyway.
Arguably there's more people in the scene that can fill in the "expert commentary" slot than there are people that can fill in the color commentary slot. The scene revolves around the game and people who are really good at it are never going to be in short supply. You could have blade55555 commentate a game and you'd get pretty damn good analysis that would satisfy the vast majority of the audience's need for SC2 expertise.
What is in short supply are people who are talented at actual commentary and have the ability to keep the crowd from falling asleep or muting the stream in a 6+ hour long broadcast. So no, not "almost anyone" can do it - in fact relatively few people can, because it requires talents that are, unlike SC2 skill, not inherent to the scene.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
where you see a disadvantage i see an advantage. a female personality can use this "negative attention" to shine light on her. if she is good, the haters will dissipate leaving her victorious and vindicated. if she is bad however, your right it will be worse then a male most likely because many of the girls before her were "pretenders"
girls dont wana jump into a guy conversation? thats honestly bullshit. defend yourself its the internet. the guys are not gonna hit you, there are no physical ramifications online for speaking your mind (bill bur ref baby) so DO IT. shut up these chauvinistic idiots with LOGIC AND TALENT
Agreed. Although when I think about it, Moletrap took his good share of shit in the face, as did Khaldor. One folded, the other rose so, again, probably not gender related.
On July 30 2013 17:51 darkscream wrote: Your DJwheat, your TB, your Husky.. They don't stand alone very well, as much as we may love them. They can really only do playbyplay and really, almost anyone can provided they're used to talking/screaming for several hours at a time.
TB and Husky have a following that is very much used to them standing alone. It's a pretty large following. When it comes to actual events, nobody ever gets to stand alone anyway.
Arguably there's more people in the scene that can fill in the "expert commentary" slot than there are people that can fill in the color commentary slot. The scene revolves around the game and people who are really good at it are never going to be in short supply. You could have blade55555 commentate a game and you'd get pretty damn good analysis that would satisfy the vast majority of the audience's need for SC2 expertise.
What is in short supply are people who are talented at actual commentary and have the ability to keep the crowd from falling asleep or muting the stream in a 6+ hour long broadcast. So no, not "almost anyone" can do it - in fact relatively few people can, because it requires talents that are, unlike SC2 skill, not inherent to the scene.
I like that you seem to actually understand the various intangibles that make a caster good at what they do.
Things like 'having a good voice' and 'charisma' are actually pretty important, and no offence to them but so many casting hopefuls just DON'T have them. The dynamic between a casting duo is pretty crucial too. Despite his famous lack of playing the game, I still love Tasteless and what he brings to the table in terms of getting the best out of Artosis, who in my view is not just a good caster, but is an all-round fantastic broadcasting talent.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. And what makes me mad is that people actually donate to these said women who clearly have no interest whatsoever in the game and often don't even play anything and just surf the net.
However if a woman has made a career out of casting/playing/whatever, good for her.
On July 29 2013 16:28 papaz wrote: What's so strange that there are almost no female casters? There are almost no female progamers so why would there be any more female casters?
For whatever reason females don't have the same interest in pro gaming.
This. Why create issues where there are none? Any woman who puts enough work and dedication like the rest of the casters/players she WILL gets noticed, there simply aren't any and that's that.
I swear topics like this are simply to stir a hornets nest of internet crusaders.
If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them....
The thread should have ended here considering the usual forum spammers turned up and from that point the results are predictable. If there is any real prejudice from people involved in the sc2 scene, let it be known, that goes for any kind of prejudice and I think most people involved with sc2 in some capacity would also like to hear if potential players/casters are genuinely being held back due to shady reasons.
Until that point all the naysayers are getting their information on the all so sexist sc2 scene from reddit and stream chats. Yes, the same places where pedo comments are thrown around like nothing and where Adolf Hitler is talked about like some sort of comedic hero. In other words if you are taking what a bunch of angsty adolescents and jokers goofing around online say seriously then its probably time to go outside a bit more often.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. And what makes me mad is that people actually donate to these said women who clearly have no interest whatsoever in the game and often don't even play anything and just surf the net.
However if a woman has made a career out of casting/playing/whatever, good for her.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
Surely that is more down to the audience than the individual.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention. And what makes me mad is that people actually donate to these said women who clearly have no interest whatsoever in the game and often don't even play anything and just surf the net.
However if a woman has made a career out of casting/playing/whatever, good for her.
There's several male casters that don't care all that much about the game (I think you know some of the more famous ones) and they don't get shit on for whoring themselves out for a game that they don't have much interest in.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Completely false. The ONLY difference is that it's not rooted in sexual comments, but in insults of every other kind.
Tbh ZombieGrub's attitude pissed me off, but she's entitled to behave as she wants without getting abuse based on her gender. Nazca's post was nice though, in that it is coming from a woman in the scene, rather than being male conjecture, so that's good.
True but false. Because Female get both sexist, irrespectfull AND insults. You don't see Total Biscuit viewer say : "you are fat, you are bald, "etc.. you read :" You suck; you are not good". But not some "show me your chest/dick" something.
I'm no girl, but i seen my GF appeared on stream (only voice not face) for a 2vs2 with one of the master play of her team. And chat... on twitch (it was like 6viewers). 4of 'em were like : "show face, show tits, is she hot ?" etc...
And the ONLY difference (sex rooted) is everything. Would you like to be moked on your physic ? On the size of your dick EVERYTIME you stream ? No i don't think so. You would tolerate insults or comments that you are gay or something.
Well it's hard to explain what i mean.
Incontrol and Desrow would like a word.
I don't particularly mind vitriol thrown my way, but equally doesn't mean that everyone will be similarly minded, nor should they have to be.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: I do get the "marry me", "I'd f*ck you hard", "You got nice tits" kinda bullshit. I'm very far from being an attention whore and more than anything, I love this game and I managed to make it my job which is absolutely amazing and for which I am more than thankful. I also get the hate, because I'm "only" diamond even though I consider that my level doesn't reflect my knowledge of the game seeing how little time I have to play.
Either way, and sorry for the long post, the only thing I wanna say is : I don't give a damn what people say about me. I LOVE THIS GAME and I intend to continue doing my job no matter what people may throw at me, simply because it's not part of my DNA to give up. I'd like to get to Masters, in all three races, just to make them shut up but again, I don't have time. For the rest, I think I do a good job and I think that my promotion and the fact that I got a contract has NOTHING to do with me being a girl, and everything with how hard I work.
These are the most important two paragraphs in the whole thread, with the ZombieGrub post about women not wanting to enter a male discussion. There are the most important posts because they reflect opinions and experience of women who work their ass off for making it in eSports.
From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. They get this bullshit just because of the way they are born ! This is the problem, no male casters/streamer has to deal with this kind of bullshit and that's why we have to listen to their experience. It's great that some women can deal with this and still not lose their passion for the game and the community.
I would.
Completely false. The ONLY difference is that it's not rooted in sexual comments, but in insults of every other kind.
Tbh ZombieGrub's attitude pissed me off, but she's entitled to behave as she wants without getting abuse based on her gender. Nazca's post was nice though, in that it is coming from a woman in the scene, rather than being male conjecture, so that's good.
True but false. Because Female get both sexist, irrespectfull AND insults. You don't see Total Biscuit viewer say : "you are fat, you are bald, "etc.. you read :" You suck; you are not good". But not some "show me your chest/dick" something.
I'm no girl, but i seen my GF appeared on stream (only voice not face) for a 2vs2 with one of the master play of her team. And chat... on twitch (it was like 6viewers). 4of 'em were like : "show face, show tits, is she hot ?" etc...
And the ONLY difference (sex rooted) is everything. Would you like to be moked on your physic ? On the size of your dick EVERYTIME you stream ? No i don't think so. You would tolerate insults or comments that you are gay or something.
Well it's hard to explain what i mean.
Incontrol and Desrow would like a word.
I don't particularly mind vitriol thrown my way, but equally doesn't mean that everyone will be similarly minded, nor should they have to be.
And incontrol hates it every time. Gets caught up in it almost every time.
I remember in one state of the game how he said he wanted to take a dump on a troll live on stage just to make people know that they can be held accountable.
Why? Because it is sickening that a grandmasters player gets called fat as if it matters.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
Surely that is more down to the audience than the individual.
no its not lol shes abusing lonely nerd virgins its abhorrent because she is trashing girl gamers names imo
im sure they watch her for her gameplay. im not sure what cosplay has to do with gaming but to me, this is basically boothbabe nonsense that appeals to the wrong side of gaming.
its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy".
this topic is so over in that we who are at least intelligent enough to know that any talented girl caster will be treated equally yet im so compelled to continually put down those that think gaming is sexist when its honestly not that. its unfiltered internet and guys are horny while girls less so. if a girl is bad at something with gaming, she is gonna catch shit, if shes good she wont.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy".
Sew is with a needle and thread. Sow has to do with planting seeds. So the idiom actually goes, "you reap what you sow."
Loool no. Most people can't even form a coherent sentence let alone GET HYPE. Any pro-player can do analysis, there's an overabundance of analysis men for SC2, since every pro is better than pretty much any analytical caster at it. GETTING HYPE (ie. play-by-play, y'know, the sports industry standard for commentary) is something that only a few people in this scene can actually do properly because it requires actual communication skills and stamina, something most people don't have.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Loool no. Most people can't even form a coherent sentence let alone GET HYPE. Any pro-player can do analysis, there's an overabundance of analysis men for SC2, since every pro is better than pretty much any analytical caster at it. GETTING HYPE (ie. play-by-play, y'know, the sports industry standard for commentary) is something that only a few people in this scene can actually do properly because it requires actual communication skills and stamina, something most people don't have.
Wait you are telling us that broadcasting isn't a skill we are all born with? That is more than just talking fast and discribing whats on screen? That is takes practice, effort and might be hard? I don't think the people in this thread are ready for this level of honesty.
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
Surely that is more down to the audience than the individual.
no its not lol shes abusing lonely nerd virgins its abhorrent because she is trashing girl gamers names imo
im sure they watch her for her gameplay. im not sure what cosplay has to do with gaming but to me, this is basically boothbabe nonsense that appeals to the wrong side of gaming.
its hard for serious "girl gamers" casters or whatever to be taken seriously when this girl and others like her do this. you reap what you sew and girls so far (not all) are sewing the seeds of sex before talent in the gamer world. its hardly the guys fault for acting the way they do. lets also consider what the game characters look like. show me a game character (nova, kerrigan) that are not "sexy".
this topic is so over in that we who are at least intelligent enough to know that any talented girl caster will be treated equally yet im so compelled to continually put down those that think gaming is sexist when its honestly not that. its unfiltered internet and guys are horny while girls less so. if a girl is bad at something with gaming, she is gonna catch shit, if shes good she wont.
There's a lot of streams, each streamer has their own gimmick to pull in viewers. For example, IdrA's is just being a douche to people he plays against. There is nothing wrong with it. This prejudice against women doing what they want is probably a good part in why there aren't many women in esports.
On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote: In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote: In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
Yeah, that obeservation is a little sexist. Just like if I said "Its simple, all women like shoes because I see a lot of them shopping for shoes and TV shows also show them shopping for shoes".
Or better yet, play the game I like to play when I want to know if a comment is sexist. Replace the word "Women" or "Girls" with "Black people" and then tell me if you would feel comfortable saying that phrase out loud, in public. If the answer is "holy shit that sounds super racist", the comment is likely pretty sexist.
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Yeah a pretty reasonable assessment. That said, Destiny did face some censure, at least ostensibly because his image was seen as negative for the industry's growth into pastures new.
[QUOTE]On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote: [QUOTE]On July 30 2013 17:17 Nazca wrote: From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers. [/QUOTE]
Let me use a cultural reference that as a French you should get (although this may be getting a bit too old of a reference... ) "Oh Patriiiiick...." iow, based on that position, Patrick Bruel should have been discouraged from having a singing career due to a _lot_ of attention from the opposite sex, unrelated to his singing talent (or lack thereof).
maybe I should quote the wisdom of these days : :-) Allo ? Allo, t'es une fille et t'as pas de shampoing ?"
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Yeah a pretty reasonable assessment. That said, Destiny did face some censure, at least ostensibly because his image was seen as negative for the industry's growth into pastures new.
The censure came with a huge backlash if I recall.
He attacked a woman, when it got out that he did there was immediate backlash from women, sponsors did not agree with it, lots of people poured in defending Destiny's attack.
But yes, when Destiny makes a fool of himself we call his shit out. However, it seems that when a woman makes a fool of herself we call out women as a whole.
In other words, when destiny decides ridicule women, we don't see that as all males in sc2 wanting to ridicule women, we see that as just destiny doing it. When a woman shows skin, the community treats it as all women showing skin.
On July 30 2013 23:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Biscuit laying it down, good stuff.
@I agree with your sentiment that females are judged as a group, males as individuals like you say. However, I do see the worst elements of the scene being held up as representative of 'gamers', which I guess is reasonably comparable.
Yeah, but that "worse element of the scene being held up as representative of gamers" is done by people outside the gamer community, much like a lot of the notions about women in gaming is held by people outside of the female community.
Do you realize of ridiculous that sound to lump 3.5 billions people into one 'community' ? btw: you can substitute male/female in the lst part of your sentence, and that works just as well (or poorly actually)
On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote: In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
He does not tell _women_ anything, he is making an observation... and 'probably 99% 14-25yo mens' is not math, it is just a wild guess.... just because there are digits in a sentence does not make it 'math'
Yeah, that obeservation is a little sexist.
Yes it is a little. and sure, many post in this thread _are_ a _lot_ sexist (from both side btw).
Just like if I said "Its simple, all women like shoes because I see a lot of them shopping for shoes and TV shows also show them shopping for shoes".
Yep, that is the problem, when lumping people in huge categories... Then again no-one is being offended that there are a wide disparity in _average_ ownership of pair of shoes Nor I have seen argument that men don't have as many pair of shoes in average because they are detered to do so by an hostile environment in shoe shops or in the shoe industry...
Or better yet, play the game I like to play when I want to know if a comment is sexist. Replace the word "Women" or "Girls" with "Black people" and then tell me if you would feel comfortable saying that phrase out loud, in public. If the answer is "holy shit that sounds super racist", the comment is likely pretty sexist.
Well, to take the OP topic... I don't see many black caster either... is that a sign that e-sport is racist ?
On July 30 2013 17:47 Opera wrote: From what I read, a women can not appear on stream without getting messages which have nothing to do with the game or the content they are providing to the viewers.
Let me use a cultural reference that as a French you should get (although this may be getting a bit too old of a reference... ) "Oh Patriiiiick...." iow, based on that position, Patrick Bruel should have been discouraged from having a singing career due to a _lot_ of attention from the opposite sex, unrelated to his singing talent (or lack thereof).
maybe I should quote the wisdom of these days : :-) Allo ? Allo, t'es une fille et t'as pas de shampoing ?"
Evitons le français, et évitons d'essayer de deviner l'âge des autres
The difference is that Patrick Bruel got the attention he chose to look for. Female streamers get sexual harassment. One based his career on the attention he got from teenage girls (just like any boys band), the others are just trying to share some game content with the community.
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
To be fair I didn't come right out and say they'd have to have the ability to commentate as well. Meaning an in depth knowledge of the game, ability to speak, ability to work well with other people etc.
There are also in fairness other factors like, do you expect to get paid?
It will still hold true that there is very very few commentators who were both female, and possessed the right abilities. Then in addition to that built a following on a level that guarantees a league the level eyeballs they want.
If there was a female version of Sean, or Dan/Nick/Marcus out there I 100% guarantee you she'd be getting gigs. Fact of the matter is there isn't yet or we'd already see her. Until there is we simply are going to see less females in the industry commentating.
Example of a female who fit the above I forget her name but there is a female COD commentator doing quite well for herself last I checked.
On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote: The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
To be fair I didn't come right out and say they'd have to have the ability to commentate as well. Meaning an in depth knowledge of the game, ability to speak, ability to work well with other people etc.
There are also in fairness other factors like, do you expect to get paid?
It will still hold true that there is very very few commentators who were both female, and possessed the right abilities. Then in addition to that built a following on a level that guarantees a league the level eyeballs they want.
If there was a female version of Sean, or Dan/Nick/Marcus out there I 100% guarantee you she'd be getting gigs. Fact of the matter is there isn't yet or we'd already see her. Until there is we simply are going to see less females in the industry commentating.
Example of a female who fit the above I forget her name but there is a female COD commentator doing quite well for herself last I checked.
No I think you have it backwards. Day9, DJWheat, Apollo are not successful casters because they are popular. They are popular (in social media metrics) because they are successful Casters/esports personalities.
Edit: reread your post, and we are apparently saying pretty much the same thing.
On July 31 2013 01:19 Opera wrote: Evitons le français, et évitons d'essayer de deviner l'âge des autres
sorry, I was not trying to guess your age, I just realized, as I was typing, that my cultural reference was getting a big aged, and _may_ not be picked-up (that is also why I spelled out his name later :-)
The difference is that Patrick Bruel got the attention he chose to look for. Female streamers get sexual harassment. One based his career on the attention he got from teenage girls (just like any boys band), the others are just trying to share some game content with the community.
Well, 'the community' comprise a sizeable number of teenage boys. Should they know better than saying 'nice tits' as an introductory sentence to a stranger... sure. Then again, sex and nudity is such a taboo in the US that it is not that surprizing to see so many ill-adjusted teens. (I do not usually follow twitter chat or reddit, neither in english nor in french, so maybe this is just as bad in french chat... and I'm too old to have first hand knowledge on teen-chat behavior, since chat did not exist when I was a teen, nor did ISP for that matter :-)
The point being that such part of your audience also come with the territory. Just as Patrick Bruel teenage girls fanbase.. I don't think that Patrick Bruel could have avoided it, even if he had chosen too, short of not being a singer at all.
Also, boys/girls bands are incredibly sexists.
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
Yes it is. At least in the form they always existed. If there was a band which was incredibly racist or antisemitic there would be pitchforks everywhere and they would be banned form performing anywhere (just look at what happened with Dieudonné). I know it's hard to proceed because of the world we live in, especially as a male, but sexism is as bad as racism. Sexism is not just sexual harassment or kitchen jokes, just as racism is not just KKK or nazism.
Given the audience's casting requirements and complaints, the things that are often looked for:
- play by play - analysis
In many ways it feels like a no-win situation, because people tend to demand at the minimum, Master-league level analysis, and as for play-by-play, they don't want someone to just read what's off of the screen. So you can see the barrier to entry alone is fairly high(whether it be for men or women).
While you don't necessarily need Masters-league knowledge to convey play-by-play action, care also needs to be taken to not be overly critical just because the player misses his inject by 2 seconds or overly harp on this or that. Some of the better casters make a point to showcase the pro's ability.
I do believe the focus should be on the game and not on the individual. GOMTV went through a great deal of different casters back in 2011 like a trial period so I kind of liked that.
So in short it's not about whether you're a man or woman. It's about being well-suited for the job.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that. Whether or not this is due to societal pressures or not, that's up to you to decide. However, don't pretend that the SC2 community is driving females away; it's not.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop.
Until dum dum males stop falling for it you mean. Dudes need to start looking in the mirror if they want the answers to some of these questions.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
i somewhere heared, that women casters are not wanted that much, because of that one study that says, that men aren't really good at listening to high pitched voices ( women voices ) and sometimes even find them annoying.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
Since you decided to edit your piece by adding in your response to my post, I'll do the same.
Show me the thread here on TL that has reached more than 30 pages about how everyone is as fat as incontrol. You can't, because people trolling incontrol does not translate to them trolling the scene they are in. Lots of people outside of esports associate being fat with video games--but 90% of those people have no idea who incontrol is.
In fact, the only time I've seen long threads here on TL where the community associates itself with an individual is Destiny. Multiple times now people start threads defending destiny's attacks on women and people of color as normal things to do. They get most upset when it is suggested that treating women like he treated them is punished by sponsors.
You see, a large community here on TL does something very consistently. They defend men who make fun of women, and then they post studies they didn't actually read to try to "prove" that women are inferior.
You posted three Stanford studies that showed women being as successful as men at performing tasks but being less willing to play a role they're socially expected not to perform. They didn't "hold back" because they're bad at competition, those studies showed that the only held back when the tasks they are asked to perform were relabeled.
When the only thing messing you up is the label of a product/activity and not the activity itself--that shows cultural bias.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Stand back folks, this guy is going to tell us why women stream. He has checked in with all of them and has confirmed the majority do not like games, but love to be looked at over the internet. Nothing like a young man telling us exactly how women work. I need this information because living with one isn't enough for me.
And lets get this quote out there right now:
A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage.
Let us just remember that this post was in response: "Why can't we just take each female stream and caster on a case by case basis and treat them all like seperate people?" Clearly someone doesn't want to do that.
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:25 Plansix wrote: [quote] You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Stand back folks, this guy is going to tell us why women stream. He has checked in with all of them and has confirmed the majority do not like games, but love to be looked at over the internet. Nothing like a young man telling us exactly how women work. I need this information because living with one isn't enough for me.
And lets get this quote out there right now:
A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage.
Let us just remember that this post was in response: "Why can't we just take each female stream and caster on a case by case basis and treat them all like seperate people?" Clearly someone doesn't want to do that.
Stand back guys, I quoted Tara Babcock, a female personality and all of a sudden I'm a chauvinistic pig. Did you even bother to watch the video? Nothing like the Great White Knight Plansix to come to the rescue of all these not so innocent female streamers.
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
And you didn't read the study either, execpt for the part that agreed with your argument.
Whether the poor performance of women relative to men in mixed gender group tournaments is a rational response or a psychological phenomenon, our results show that single-sex tournaments elicit more comparable performance from women and men. Furthermore, in our experiments, running single-sex as opposed to mixed tournaments came at no cost. The performance of the winners of single-sex tournaments is no lower than of the winners of mixed-sex tournaments (even though the winners of the single-sex tournaments are constrained to be always half women and half men).
Which points out that the negative results in mixed touraments was due to the relationship between men and women and the dip in results was not present in the same sex touranments.
Also, you forgot the section:
While the reasons for the attrition rate of women in science and engineering remain unclear, there exists mounting evidence that the women’s low feelings of condence and competence play a key role. A recent report titled “Women’s Experiences in College Engineering” [Goodman, Cunningham, and Lachapelle 2002] shows that women are not dropping out of engineering programs because of poor performance. Many women who left mentioned negative aspects of their school’s climate such as competition, lack of support, and discouraging faculty and peers. Positive perceptions of self-condence were highly associated with staying in the program, and increased with the existence of mentor programs, opportunities for networking with practicing female engineers and clubs like the society for Women Engineers. In general, condence in one’s abilities and optimism have been shown to be strongly related to academic performance [Chemers, Hu, and Garcia 2001]. Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
Where the study you cite specificly states that difference in results in likely a SOCIAL ISSUES relating to their school climate and other problems that have nothing to do with genetics.
The study you cited reports that you are incorrect and points out that women are likely to be as competative as men if there are not other social conditions in place.
You might want to trying reading them before citing them next time.
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote: [quote] People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote: [quote] People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote: [quote] People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:44 Plansix wrote: [quote] People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
And you didn't read the study either, execpt for the part that agreed with your argument.
Whether the poor performance of women relative to men in mixed gender group tournaments is a rational response or a psychological phenomenon, our results show that single-sex tournaments elicit more comparable performance from women and men. Furthermore, in our experiments, running single-sex as opposed to mixed tournaments came at no cost. The performance of the winners of single-sex tournaments is no lower than of the winners of mixed-sex tournaments (even though the winners of the single-sex tournaments are constrained to be always half women and half men).
Which points out that the negative results in mixed touraments was due to the relationship between men and women and the dip in results was not present in the same sex touranments.
Also, you forgot the section:
While the reasons for the attrition rate of women in science and engineering remain unclear, there exists mounting evidence that the women’s low feelings of condence and competence play a key role. A recent report titled “Women’s Experiences in College Engineering” [Goodman, Cunningham, and Lachapelle 2002] shows that women are not dropping out of engineering programs because of poor performance. Many women who left mentioned negative aspects of their school’s climate such as competition, lack of support, and discouraging faculty and peers. Positive perceptions of self-condence were highly associated with staying in the program, and increased with the existence of mentor programs, opportunities for networking with practicing female engineers and clubs like the society for Women Engineers. In general, condence in one’s abilities and optimism have been shown to be strongly related to academic performance [Chemers, Hu, and Garcia 2001]. Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
Where the study you cite specificly states that difference in results in likely a SOCIAL ISSUES relating to their school climate and other problems that have nothing to do with genetics.
The study you cited reports that you are incorrect and points out that women are likely to be as competative as men if there are not other social conditions in place.
You might want to trying reading them before citing them next time.
What? Are you seriously stupid or something? How did you reach that conclusion at all? The only thing you can draw from the studies conclusively is that men are more likely to enter competitive environments (tournaments in the study) and are likely to perform better in a competitive environment than females are. Everything else is theory or bullshit. Like I said, whether you think it's 'societal' pressures that's up to you. Fact of the matter is, females shy away from competitive environments, and when they are in one, they tend to under perform in said competitive environment.
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 30 2013 22:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:00 Plansix wrote: [quote]
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Not to mention the world/sc2 community/gaming community in general is mixed. Not separated. As such, you're going to get less females, because they for whatever reason do not like competitive environments in general. This is backed by the studies that I linked you. There's a reason why the female population in 'non-competitive' games is far higher; League of Legends, World of Warcraft, and most MMOs/non-hardcore games in general are very popular among the females because they don't compete against other people directly. SC2 is about as hardcore competitive as it gets. Thus, you see less female progamers/casters. Simple as that.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SC2 COMMUNITY. I REPEAT. NOTHING.
I think the biggest reason that a pattern is observed where many women shy away from male dominated competition driven activities is that they were told to do so since they were born.
Men were raised on Mars, Women were raised on Venus.
Also since when is women acting sexual a bad thing? I thought we grew out of the whole medieval church mindset.
On July 31 2013 04:12 ComaDose wrote: I think the biggest reason that a pattern is observed where many women shy away from male dominated competition driven activities is that they were told to do so since they were born.
Men were raised on Mars, Women were raised on Venus.
Also since when is women acting sexual a bad thing? I thought we grew out of the whole medieval church mindset.
Ask Starstran, I'm sure he has a stanford study to "prove" his viewpoint there as well
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote:
On July 30 2013 23:13 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
On July 31 2013 04:12 ComaDose wrote: I think the biggest reason that a pattern is observed where many women shy away from male dominated competition driven activities is that they were told to do so since they were born.
Men were raised on Mars, Women were raised on Venus.
Also since when is women acting sexual a bad thing? I thought we grew out of the whole medieval church mindset.
Or what this guy said. They don't compete because they are told not to.
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
On July 31 2013 04:12 ComaDose wrote: I think the biggest reason that a pattern is observed where many women shy away from male dominated competition driven activities is that they were told to do so since they were born.
Men were raised on Mars, Women were raised on Venus.
Also since when is women acting sexual a bad thing? I thought we grew out of the whole medieval church mindset.
When your job is to demonstrate your skill as a video gamer or as an analyst/play by play caster it becomes an issue. It's not so much for say personalities on stream, I honestly don't mind that too much. But if you are suppose to be good at something, don't use your sexuality to try and cover up your lack of skill.
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On July 31 2013 03:02 superstartran wrote: [quote]
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens far more often and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified.
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified
and then conclude that
gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
On July 31 2013 04:12 ComaDose wrote: I think the biggest reason that a pattern is observed where many women shy away from male dominated competition driven activities is that they were told to do so since they were born.
Men were raised on Mars, Women were raised on Venus.
Also since when is women acting sexual a bad thing? I thought we grew out of the whole medieval church mindset.
Or what this guy said. They don't compete because they are told not to.
Id like to amend "told not to" to "actively discouraged through every feasible means of interaction with society"
On July 31 2013 03:17 Plansix wrote: [quote] So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read what you quoted?
[quote]
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
[quote]
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
[quote]
and then conclude that
[quote]
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
No matter what you say, people are going to just tell you it's society's fault. Weird how every society turned out exactly the same way...
On July 31 2013 03:17 Plansix wrote: [quote] So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read what you quoted?
[quote]
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
[quote]
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
[quote]
and then conclude that
[quote]
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
EDIT: wtf... I dont include discrimination and sexism as being part of a young man please stop slandering my gender. and yeah if the reason they dont like mixed competitive environments is bad, let's stop oppressing women so that they stop "not liking" mixed competitive environments.
studies saying this is the way things are are so irrelevant to anything resembling this is why it is, or this is good.
On July 31 2013 03:27 superstartran wrote: [quote]
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
[quote]
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
On July 31 2013 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
i disagree. i believe actively trying to fix things is the best way to fix things
On July 31 2013 03:17 Plansix wrote: [quote] So wait, if one female SC2 play is doing that, it justifies critiquing all of them on using sex appeal to hook viewer? We can't treat them a separate people, on a case by case basis? Or are all females the same and using the same tricks to hook viewers?
Also, I don't many women who are not competitive on some level and anything claims otherwise are just made up. I have deal with the some fierce female competitors in all walks of life, so I don’t really know where that stereotype comes from or why people keep claiming its true.
It's not one female player; it's multiple female personalities/players that far outnumber the ones that produce actual quality content. A vast majority of female personalities on twitch are streaming not because they enjoy streaming; they just enjoy attention. The females that try to simply stream and go based on their talents are few and far in between, so stop pretending like it's not an issue. I'll make a bet with you, for every 'non sex based' female channel you can find, I can find 3 other channels that are using sex appeal.
And read the fucking studies. Women generally do not like competitive environments. Those studies were done in a non-gender biased way. So stop spouting your nonsense and come up with some evidence for once.
On July 31 2013 03:26 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read what you quoted?
[quote]
Did you really attempt to refute that statement by pointing out that Mia Rose shows her chest and hence that means that all women shows their chest?
[quote]
What Mia Rose does is what she herself does, it isn't what the female community does. Much like Destiny being a dick is what Destiny does, not what the entire male community does.
You can't say "Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop" just because Mia Rose does it.
Nor can you say that
[quote]
and then conclude that
[quote]
When the only person giving that female caster a bad name is the person who thinks the criticism is justified.
And just how exactly is it white knighting to talk about incontrol and Destiny? People like you keep throwing that word around whenever you come into threads like this but how exactly is it white knighting to say that when people make fun of incontrol's weight, they don't project it to all male gamers and just incrontrol?
1) A vast majority of females have done nothing but attention whore and or use their gender to steal money/used it to their own advantage. This is not something I made up; a vast majority of female personalities have commented on this already through their own video blogs. Want proof? Here you go.
2) People project Incontrol's 'fatness' all the time on the rest of the SC2 community, as well as Destiny's immaturity. Stop pretending that this is an exclusive 'female hate fest' when it's not. This is a 'stop bitching about a non-existent problem.'
3) Go onto Twitch, look up every female streamer. Tell me how many use sex appeal vs not using sex appeal. I can almost guarantee sex appeal out numbers non-sex appeal 3:1.
You're white knighting because you're bitching about a non-existent problem. In fact, it's almost an advantage to be a female in the SC2 community/gaming community in general, simply because you're going to get way more attention.
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
What are you talking about?
He asked you not to treat the female population like Mia Rose and I told you that Incontrol and Destiny get flack that doesn't translate to all males getting flack.
We haven't even asked you to stop being a dick to people.
And why would you say
It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community
When the discussion was about the females *already* in the community.
In fact, this is what you said when you intruded into my and Planxis discussion.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
And you said that as a response to my saying that Artosis is not a Korean GM.
So which part are of my and Planxis argument is about, as you say "stop being young men" whatever that means. Is it "being young men" to treat women who are not Mia Rose the same way as Mia Rose? Is it "being young men" to defend Destiny's derogatory remarks and make fun of Incontrol?
What is the point of your argument and how does it stem forth as a response to the discussion Planxis and I were having?
On July 31 2013 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
Define fix for us please? Because most of us are just saying people shoudlnt' be sexist jerks or assume that a woman isn't intrested in the SC2 scene just because she is a woman.
On July 31 2013 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Did you read them? The only differences came about when the context of the tasks were changed, the tasks themselves remained the same. And you know what that context was? Willingness to enter tournaments. They both had similar results and had similar consistencies, but only when given the choice to enter a tournament or not is when differences became involved. Last I checked, laddering is not a fucking tournament. Neither is casting.
You clearly read the top lines of the studies and that's it.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
When you have few women I think is work of Blizzard, MLG and others to find a female caster to help. Of course, a good one, not just anyone bad that will back fire.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
As someone who has been doing it for a while, being nice to women is generally how you get them to hang out with you. Normally, the more amusing and nicer you are, while avoiding the creep factors, the more they enjoy being around you. Not being sexist and avoiding commenting on other women's "tits" and physical features is a core tenent in this process and the key to success.
On July 31 2013 03:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
A fourth one?
Sure.
[quote]
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
As someone who has been doing it for a while, being nice to women is generally how you get them to hang out with you. Normally, the more amusing and nicer you are, while avoiding the creep factors, the more they enjoy being around you. Not being sexist and avoiding commenting on other women's "tits" and physical features is a core tenent in this process and the key to success.
I have a friend who is a total asshole to women, calls them stupid, farts on them (I'm not lying), disrespects them, and comes home with a 10 every night.
On July 31 2013 03:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
A fourth one?
Sure.
[quote]
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
As someone who has been doing it for a while, being nice to women is generally how you get them to hang out with you. Normally, the more amusing and nicer you are, while avoiding the creep factors, the more they enjoy being around you. Not being sexist and avoiding commenting on other women's "tits" and physical features is a core tenent in this process and the key to success.
being nice and not creepy is too much to ask! didn't you know as an adolescent male I'm programmed genetically to hunt bison and objectify women waaaaaa!!!!
On July 31 2013 03:55 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
As someone who has been doing it for a while, being nice to women is generally how you get them to hang out with you. Normally, the more amusing and nicer you are, while avoiding the creep factors, the more they enjoy being around you. Not being sexist and avoiding commenting on other women's "tits" and physical features is a core tenent in this process and the key to success.
I have a friend who is a total asshole to women, calls them stupid, farts on them (I'm not lying), disrespects them, and comes home with a 10 every night.
He wasn't talking about fucking them, he was talking about hanging out with them. To share conversation, interests, and to treat them like a human being.
If you hang in a bar till closing you will always come back with someone. Getting someone to fuck you is easy enough if you simply go to places where women are also looking for men to fuck.
Planxis is talking about creating a community where men and women get to be non-gendered and chat with each other about like passions without it being about getting your dick in her pussy.
On July 31 2013 03:55 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
As someone who has been doing it for a while, being nice to women is generally how you get them to hang out with you. Normally, the more amusing and nicer you are, while avoiding the creep factors, the more they enjoy being around you. Not being sexist and avoiding commenting on other women's "tits" and physical features is a core tenent in this process and the key to success.
I have a friend who is a total asshole to women, calls them stupid, farts on them (I'm not lying), disrespects them, and comes home with a 10 every night.
I know people like that too, but I don't call them friends or talk to them if I can avoid it. I will pass no judgment on the women he is bringing home, except that they can likely do better and its sad that they don't feel that way.
On July 31 2013 04:43 aintz wrote: a lot of popular male casters dont even know what they are talking about half the time, female casters who barely play the game would be even worse.
you're accurate but irrelevant. because you are talking about doing something no one has suggested.
Men perform signicantly higher in mixed tournaments than under both noncompetitive incentive schemes, the piece rate and the random pay. The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test that compares performance of men in mixed tournaments with the piece rate is 0.001, while for the comparison to the random pay treatment it is 0.006.
In a mixed tournament situation, men perform significantly higher than the women did. That's exactly the same situation that you have in the caster/pro gamer/etc. world. Men and women in the same setting, competing against each other for tournament winnings, job positions, etc.
Every single study will tell you that men perform significantly higher when there is an incentive to perform. Women generally do not, especially in a mixed gender situation.
A fourth one?
Sure.
In the benchmark treatment, the pay- off to participants depends only on their own performance: each one is paid a xed piece rate for every maze solved over a period of fteen minutes. We nd no statistically signicant gender difference in performance.
The task itself is simple and does not change (navigating a maze). When put in a tournament format, the women performed similarly to when they were not in a tournament format, the men performed better in a tournament format.
In that study, the women were neither encouraged nor discouraged by the format of the activity. The men tried harder in the activity. When outside of a tournament setting, both the men and women performed equally. Hence, the only difference is that the men cared more than the women--that's it.
Lmao, so it proves my original point that women are less likely inclined to perform in a competitive environment? They are unwilling to participate, and then they don't perform as well.
Did you read the reports findings as to what caused that to happen or what happened in the same sex touranments? Because that part does not prove you correct.
Clearly you don't read.
In single-sex tournaments, women solve more mazes than in mixed tournaments. However, this difference is not signicant. (The p-value of the two-sided Mann-Whitney U test is 0.1025. Using a one-sided test of course makes the results signicant at conventional levels.)
Ah, I missed that part. I apologize for the error. I am still not seeing anything that proves anything though. The study only shows that women do not perform as well as men when completing mazes in a competitive event. But it does not point to any findings that show it is genetics or any predisposition to non-competitive events. The study specifically focuses on the idea of confidence in performing a specific task directly relates to someone performance. And it also states that women were not as confident as men in a competitive event. But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
The study doesn’t help your argument in any way and mostly hurts it. It only points out that fields that are male dominated seem to have a negative effect on women’s confidence in said field. It doesn’t provide any proof that women are naturally like this and strongly leans toward it being cause by culture and social issues.
The whole point is that you asking for males to treat females better isn't going to do anything. It isn't all of a sudden going to get more females into the SC2 community. The fact of the matter is, females for whatever reason on a scientific basis shy away from mixed competitive environments. This is seen in schools, most fields of work that are male dominant, etc.
So you and Thieving Magpie telling everyone to 'stop being young men' isn't going to do anything; the reality is that females for whatever reasons (whether it is biological/psychological/social) don't like mixed competitive environments. Period.
LOL scientific basis. "I have a study that says people acted this way ergo women genetics bio truths logic". the for what ever reason is not a mystery. its cause we actively reinforce these ideals in every society globally.
Give me a study that reinforces what you're saying. My only point is that trying to actively 'fix' the SC2 community isn't going to do anything. It isn't going to change the fact that females shy away from competitive environments (and SC2 is a highly cut throat competitive environment).
That's how civil rights, workers rights, voting rights, etc... has always been done. A majority rules, the minority suffers, a few rabble rousers "whine" about the situation for X amount of time until change becomes forced to happen.
And why is it so bad to ask the community to treat women better? Even if it doesn't make them play SC2, how exactly are you against treating women better than they are being treated now? Will you only treat them better if they go online and play with you? Like requirements do people have to fit before you start treating them better?
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
Good example is Ricky Ortiz and the FGC, as well as various other 'standout' players. There are plenty of 'non-standard' gamers in the FGC, and yet no one gives them shit about it. Why? Because they don't make a big deal about it. And believe me, when Ricky Ortiz initially got into the FG scene, he was called all sorts of drivel and nonsense. That stopped pretty quickly though, because people realized that it didn't matter about who he was, he could beat the best of the best in most FGs.
Initially yes, women are going to have a rough road starting out. It's inevitable, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. Is it unfair that women get more attention just because they are women? I guess. Remember, it goes both ways. Sure, women get increased negative attention, but they also get more positive attention too. When you standout, you are subject to increased criticism or praise. That's just how popularity works. Welcome to the real world.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
Yes it is. At least in the form they always existed. If there was a band which was incredibly racist or antisemitic there would be pitchforks everywhere and they would be banned form performing anywhere (just look at what happened with Dieudonné). I know it's hard to proceed because of the world we live in, especially as a male, but sexism is as bad as racism. Sexism is not just sexual harassment or kitchen jokes, just as racism is not just KKK or nazism.
Then you should be banned with a pitchfork too, because you just made a sexist comment ( 'especially as a male' ) I know it is hard to proceed because of the world we live in, but sexism, like racism is not a one way street. it bite both ways. so be _very_ careful before deciding that it is OK to ban speech or activities on the ground that it offend _you_, because if _that_ is the bar then your own speeches and activity will be subject to the same... and anything you say or do is bound to offend someone, somewhere.... I do find boys/girls band 'sexist' but I am not in one, and I do not go to their concert... what other consenting adult choose to do on their free time is not mine to moralize.
Btw, you can ban all the Dieudonne of the planet from performing... but that does not does anything wrt to racism. And as I said that cut both ways : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/FranSSe (just a random example picked-up out of a quick google search)
Should the Calendrier Aubade be banned as 'porn' ? (yep, in the US, the content of it is described, by the same people that are crusading for PC everywhere, as 'porn'. look-up 'CouchDB talk 2009)
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
lol scarlett gets the most hate
We just dont' see it on TL because the mods slap that shit down hard and people report it instantly. But it is out there, reddit has some choice stuff hidden in the down votes.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Damn it I just read this. So your ok with females being part of the scene, as long as they don't talk about sexism, even if it exists(to be clear, I am not saying it does or doesn't)? The key is not to make a big deal about it, because that would cause a shit storm.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
lol scarlett gets the most hate
We just dont' see it on TL because the mods slap that shit down hard and people report it instantly. But it is out there, reddit has some choice stuff hidden in the down votes.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Damn it I just read this. So your ok with females being part of the scene, as long as they don't talk about sexism, even if it exists(to be clear, I am not saying it does or doesn't)? The key is not to make a big deal about it, because that would cause a shit storm.
So you basically proved my point that the whole community isn't out to get female players. In fact, you just proved that the SC2 community in general actually frowns down upon insults towards females. Why else would they downvote such comments?
Two, if they are causing a shitstorm just because of a few select trolls who are going to troll them regardless of race, gender, fat/skinny, ugly, pretty, etc., then yes, I do have a problem with that. If there was an issue where a vast majority of the community was out to get them, sure, I'd have an issue. But we all know that's not true.
On July 31 2013 04:15 Plansix wrote: But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
you do not get to make stuff up. nowhere does it says that the lack of confidence has anything to do with the so-called 'male dominated field' In fact it reverse the causality, since it is said that the lact of confidence is the cause of the attrition rate hence 'causing' the filed to be so-called 'male-dominated' (a purposeful play on the double sens of the word, it seems to me)
Or what this guy said. They don't compete because they are told not to.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
lol scarlett gets the most hate
We just dont' see it on TL because the mods slap that shit down hard and people report it instantly. But it is out there, reddit has some choice stuff hidden in the down votes.
On July 31 2013 05:04 superstartran wrote:
On July 31 2013 05:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 31 2013 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Damn it I just read this. So your ok with females being part of the scene, as long as they don't talk about sexism, even if it exists(to be clear, I am not saying it does or doesn't)? The key is not to make a big deal about it, because that would cause a shit storm.
So you basically proved my point that the whole community isn't out to get female players. In fact, you just proved that the SC2 community in general actually frowns down upon insults towards females. Why else would they downvote such comments?
Two, if they are causing a shitstorm just because of a few select trolls who are going to troll them regardless of race, gender, fat/skinny, ugly, pretty, etc., then yes, I do have a problem with that. If there was an issue where a vast majority of the community was out to get them, sure, I'd have an issue. But we all know that's not true.
what units are you measuring sexism in to determine when it is too much?
On July 31 2013 05:04 superstartran wrote:If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
startran, if this was the thesis driving you the whole time, you need to reexamine why you're arguing about social justice issues. (In this context that label is a bit vaunted but it's the umbrella term I'm gonna use.)
@nazca, Thanks for the insight. Do you have a link to your shows? I don't know my way around the millenium site and my french is bad. =\
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
lol scarlett gets the most hate
We just dont' see it on TL because the mods slap that shit down hard and people report it instantly. But it is out there, reddit has some choice stuff hidden in the down votes.
On July 31 2013 05:04 superstartran wrote:
On July 31 2013 05:00 Plansix wrote:
On July 31 2013 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
No; the point is that those who troll the shit out of other females troll other people for various reasons. They are going to be jackasses to be jackasses, and there's no point in making a big deal out of it, because it just makes for a gigantic shitstorm for an essentially non-existent problem for most of the community that treats each other with a decent level of respect. If you're trying to be a professional gamer, then prove to me you are worthy of my time watching you. If you're good at what you do, I could give two rats ass about your gender.
You ever wonder why someone like Scarlett gets so little hate compared to other female personalities? Want to know why? Because Scarlett is good at what she does, and as such, no one really gives a flying fuck if she's a female or not. When you start making your 'standout' feature an issue, it becomes one. If you don't make it an issue, it doesn't become one. It's that simple.
Damn it I just read this. So your ok with females being part of the scene, as long as they don't talk about sexism, even if it exists(to be clear, I am not saying it does or doesn't)? The key is not to make a big deal about it, because that would cause a shit storm.
So you basically proved my point that the whole community isn't out to get female players. In fact, you just proved that the SC2 community in general actually frowns down upon insults towards females. Why else would they downvote such comments?
Two, if they are causing a shitstorm just because of a few select trolls who are going to troll them regardless of race, gender, fat/skinny, ugly, pretty, etc., then yes, I do have a problem with that. If there was an issue where a vast majority of the community was out to get them, sure, I'd have an issue. But we all know that's not true.
what units are you measuring sexism in to determine when it is too much?
Just replace that with "How much Racism is enough to get upset about" and you will have your answer.
On July 31 2013 04:15 Plansix wrote: But is also referenced a previous study and the issues of attrition in science programs and this was caused by a lack of confidence in a male dominated field.
you do not get to make stuff up. nowhere does it says that the lack of confidence has anything to do with the so-called 'male dominated field' In fact it reverse the causality, since it is said that the lact of confidence is the cause of the attrition rate hence 'causing' the filed to be so-called 'male-dominated' (a purposeful play on the double sens of the word, it seems to me)
I quote directly from the study for those to lazy to read it:
While the reasons for the attrition rate of women in science and engineering remain unclear, there exists mounting evidence that the women’s low feelings of condence and competence play a key role. A recent report titled “Women’s Experiences in College Engineering” [Goodman, Cunningham, and Lachapelle 2002] shows that women are not dropping out of engineering programs because of poor performance. Many women who left mentioned negative aspects of their school’s climate such as competition, lack of support, and discouraging faculty and peers. Positive perceptions of self-condence were highly associated with staying in the program, and increased with the existence of mentor programs, opportunities for networking with practicing female engineers and clubs like the society for Women Engineers. In general, condence in one’s abilities and optimism have been shown to be strongly related to academic performance [Chemers, Hu, and Garcia 2001]. Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
I cited this section a page ago and in the post you quoted.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
I don't think that would solve the issue (for female casting at least) because I personally believe it's a voice issue. Look at any public speaking role and you will see that it is male dominated. Sure, a nice female voice is pleasant to listen to for short periods of time, hence why they dominate professions such as secretaries, assistants, concierges, reporters, etc... but when it comes to listening to a female voice for extended periods of time, it can get... to be blunt, annoying. Especially in a casting situation where they will may end up shrieking and screaming at times.
Maybe I'm just scarred from growing up in a household of 4 females with me being the only male in the house and my assumption is completely off base.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
Clearly if they don't bring up their gender or make us aware they are a girl, then the issue will go away. And they should stop complaining about people talking about their bodies in mean ways, because that only fuels the problem. Sure, I mean, we could blame the people making the comments and I would get in a fist fight with anyone who said that to my sister in person, but why do that? Its easier to put the burden on the woman, because she is the one causing it with her gender.
He's okay with women so long as he doesn't know they're women, because that would be way too weird for him.
Because it's a non-factor. Women will be treated properly if they simply make their gender a non-factor. It's when you start bitching and crying about how people are saying nice tits/slut/etc. that it becomes a big deal, and the shitstorm begins. Other streamers that have other 'stand out' factors regularly get insulted/hate mail all the time. Women just so happen to be a nice big target for trolls because there's a significant population, though not quite enough of them to make them 'common/bland/oh i've seen that already'.
So here's the solution. Women start casting and streaming in Nixon masks and then we will stop being assholes to them
I don't think that would solve the issue (for female casting at least) because I personally believe it's a voice issue. Look at any public speaking role and you will see that it is male dominated. Sure, a nice female voice is pleasant to listen to for short periods of time, hence why they dominate professions such as secretaries, assistants, concierges, reporters, etc... but when it comes to listening to a female voice for extended periods of time, it can get... to be blunt, annoying. Especially in a casting situation where they will may end up shrieking and screaming at times.
Maybe I'm just scarred from growing up in a household of 4 females with me being the only male in the house and my assumption is completely off base.
OR
Some women are better speakers than others much like some men are better speakers than others and what makes them good speakers is not their maleness/femaleness
On July 31 2013 05:42 Plansix wrote: Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
I cited this section a page ago and in the post you quoted.
[/i]
And how is that establish a causality ?
in volleyball-player dominated sport program, people tend to be of higher average height than the general population...
does that means that playing volleyball cause you to be tall ?
Some women are better speakers than others much like some men are better speakers than others and what makes them good speakers is not their maleness/femaleness
On July 31 2013 05:42 Plansix wrote: Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
I cited this section a page ago and in the post you quoted.
And how is that establish a causality ?
in volleyball-player dominated sport program, people tend to be of higher average height than the general population...
does that means that playing volleyball cause you to be tall ?
There's a footnote. That means you can look up the paper with the evidence if you are so inclined.
On July 31 2013 05:42 Plansix wrote: Furthermore, in male-dominated graduate programs, female students show lower feelings of competence than male students show [Ulku-Steiner, Kurtz-Costes, and Kinlaw 2000].
I cited this section a page ago and in the post you quoted.
And how is that establish a causality ?
in volleyball-player dominated sport program, people tend to be of higher average height than the general population...
does that means that playing volleyball cause you to be tall ?
[/i] Do your own research on your own time. You accused me of making shit up. I pointed out that you were lazy and didn't read the thread or study.
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
Yes it is. At least in the form they always existed. If there was a band which was incredibly racist or antisemitic there would be pitchforks everywhere and they would be banned form performing anywhere (just look at what happened with Dieudonné). I know it's hard to proceed because of the world we live in, especially as a male, but sexism is as bad as racism. Sexism is not just sexual harassment or kitchen jokes, just as racism is not just KKK or nazism.
Then you should be banned with a pitchfork too, because you just made a sexist comment ( 'especially as a male' ) I know it is hard to proceed because of the world we live in, but sexism, like racism is not a one way street. it bite both ways. so be _very_ careful before deciding that it is OK to ban speech or activities on the ground that it offend _you_, because if _that_ is the bar then your own speeches and activity will be subject to the same... and anything you say or do is bound to offend someone, somewhere.... I do find boys/girls band 'sexist' but I am not in one, and I do not go to their concert... what other consenting adult choose to do on their free time is not mine to moralize.
Btw, you can ban all the Dieudonne of the planet from performing... but that does not does anything wrt to racism. And as I said that cut both ways : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/FranSSe (just a random example picked-up out of a quick google search)
Should the Calendrier Aubade be banned as 'porn' ? (yep, in the US, the content of it is described, by the same people that are crusading for PC everywhere, as 'porn'. look-up 'CouchDB talk 2009)
Beleive it or not, just stating male or female is not sexist. It's more difficult for a male to process sexism because as a male you have to reconsider privileges you have. Just as racism is more difficult to perceive for white people.
Sexism does offend much more people than me, and I'm open to disscussion about any of my statements/opinions. If I offend someone I didn't intend to, I'm willing to apologize and recognize my wrongs.
Beleive it or not, just stating male or female is not sexist. It's more difficult for a male to process sexism because as a male you have to reconsider privileges you have. Just as racism is more difficult to perceive for white people.
believe it or not _that_ is a sexis+racist statement. You are attributing my ability to comprehend something to my alleged gender and/or alleged 'race'. (making a generic claim of privilege based on the same is not doing anything to mitigate the prejudice) yes, I am aware that the very same type of claims are being made against women by some in this very thread, but indeed it is copiously labeled as 'sexism'... so again that cut both way.
Just to be clear: my position is: I am gender-agnostic with regard to any activities that does not relate to choosing a sexual partner... in that one I am very sexist since I immediately and irrevocably have a very strong bias toward one gender. For the rest... I really do not care what is your gender, as long as _you_ don't make it my problem to care.
Sexism does offend much more people than me, and I'm open to disscussion about any of my statements/opinions. If I offend someone I didn't intend to, I'm willing to apologize and recognize my wrongs.
your opinions are yours to have... _I_ do not have the 'right not to be offended', and _you_ do not have to apologize for holding them. I may disagree with such opinions, but that does not give me the right to suppress them. I may try to convince you that they are ill-advised/wrong etc... but I do not have the right to force you, to bully you into publicly uphold something you do not believe in, or apologize for something you do.
you're talking about 'Mister M' right ? I did not know about him... it just turn out that some people actually try to bring him to justice for his words (and failed thankfully...), so I doubt that was a case of Poe's law :-) But the fact that I did not know about him, and apparently neither did you, but we both knew about Dieudonné is indicative, I think, of the asymmetry I was referring too.
The Aubade calendar is marketing for a lingerie brand and very art oriented. And plus, why should porn be banned ?
Heh, you do not need to convince _me_ I wholly agree with you there... I'm just pointing out that the same people that are arguing that it is everybody else's fault for them not showing up and participating, also have successfully organized public campaign of uproar against sexism on the ground that the Aubade calandar is 'porn', demeaning to women, and even arguing that showing it to a group of 'male' would immediately put sex in their mind and therefore put women present at risk of assault' No I'm not making that up... that _was_ the argument made in that CoughDB presentation 'incident' I mentioned.
yes they are indeed... but that is not to say that they are evil and should be banned from the world. There are _plenty_ of entertainment form that I find anywhere from disgusting to indifferent... but to each its own. thankfully no one forced me to go to a Patrick Bruel concert, or to a Spice Grils one either for that mattter :-).
Yes it is. At least in the form they always existed. If there was a band which was incredibly racist or antisemitic there would be pitchforks everywhere and they would be banned form performing anywhere (just look at what happened with Dieudonné). I know it's hard to proceed because of the world we live in, especially as a male, but sexism is as bad as racism. Sexism is not just sexual harassment or kitchen jokes, just as racism is not just KKK or nazism.
Then you should be banned with a pitchfork too, because you just made a sexist comment ( 'especially as a male' ) I know it is hard to proceed because of the world we live in, but sexism, like racism is not a one way street. it bite both ways. so be _very_ careful before deciding that it is OK to ban speech or activities on the ground that it offend _you_, because if _that_ is the bar then your own speeches and activity will be subject to the same... and anything you say or do is bound to offend someone, somewhere.... I do find boys/girls band 'sexist' but I am not in one, and I do not go to their concert... what other consenting adult choose to do on their free time is not mine to moralize.
Btw, you can ban all the Dieudonne of the planet from performing... but that does not does anything wrt to racism. And as I said that cut both ways : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/FranSSe (just a random example picked-up out of a quick google search)
Should the Calendrier Aubade be banned as 'porn' ? (yep, in the US, the content of it is described, by the same people that are crusading for PC everywhere, as 'porn'. look-up 'CouchDB talk 2009)
Beleive it or not, just stating male or female is not sexist. It's more difficult for a male to process sexism because as a male you have to reconsider privileges you have. Just as racism is more difficult to perceive for white people.
Sexism does offend much more people than me, and I'm open to disscussion about any of my statements/opinions. If I offend someone I didn't intend to, I'm willing to apologize and recognize my wrongs.
The Aubade calendar is marketing for a lingerie brand and very art oriented. And plus, why should porn be banned ?
Indeed, it shouldn't be something to be hidden away. However, 'Girl Gamer streaming Starcraft ladder!' as a title for Twitch broadcasts is not particularly helpful in extricating yourself from being pigeonholed and treated as an individual. Not just to do with sex, but equally I don't like '12 yo American Master' or whatever. Perhaps it's a consequence of an oversaturated market, and tbh I do sympathise, I've long felt there should be some kind of stream-rating database with various categories/tag so we could peruse streams in a different manner.
Males aren't privileged in everything in society, the dominant/subordinate model is far too simplistic for an issue that is much more complex. I think the same of the spectre of racism as well, I'd elaborate but it's rather going off-topic.
On July 30 2013 18:29 AxUU wrote:Yeah but man, even though I know and realize that there are women out there just to play the damn game, I've seen female streamers who stream their face in a big picture and have the game in a little picture in the bottom left corner of the stream. That's something I'd definitely call whoring for attention.
So they have their face on their stream? I think you'll find most streamers do this, and these ones being female has nothing to do with it.
You make it sound like girls shouldn't show their webcams in public, like some ridiculous middle east tradition where they don't let women do anything.
You missed this part of his post. The point is that the girl and her face is the center of attention, not the game. He is not saying that they can't show their face.
We don't get to decide how much a person wants to express themselves. Tasteless doesn't even have to talk about SC2 for people to enjoy his casting as its become 90% "talk to me artosis" or "ask me a question" or "did you know (insert wiki fact)"
Some guys make jokes, other guys just want to socialize while playing video games. Them having different interests than you does not make what they do "wrong" in some way.
People watch the stream, so I don't get to decide anything. However, I can look at it and go "I'm not interested in that for the following reasons..." and move on from there. People have their own tastes and can watch whatever they want. I mean, Baywatch was the most popular show in the world for a very long time. SC2 is not going to be immune to the same things that made that show popular.
I agree with your opinion on it, and I think the same when I see streams like it. It reminds me of bad tv shows like jersey shore. I just simply hate going that dark road of taking the high ground when a woman shows off her body.
I also hate when players like Destiny curse for 8 hours on streams to please pre-teens who feel bad ass and I hate players like dragon who do ridiculous stuff on screen just to get noticed.
It's okay to dislike the ways of others, so long as we stop ourselves from feeling superior to others. It's a very fine line.
That is sort of the point. We don’t look at Ellen Page and claim she is the same as the actresses from Baywatch(not to say that those actresses don’t work hard, everyone has got to make a living). I think the community needs to work harder to tell the difference between the real-SC2 girls and the girls who are taking the Baywatch route when it comes to streaming. But painting them all with one brush and claiming its all the same isn’t a valid argument or discussion point.
Yes, I agree with you.
The community is perfectly able to make fun of incontrol's weight and Destiny's manners and keep the insults as Destiny's insults and incontrol's insults.
I never hear people say "destiny calling people nigger/faggot means that all men in SC2 calls people nigger faggot" but when a girl shows her chest on her stream suddenly it's "women just show their chest on their stream."
The community's problem is that we are able to isolate male problems as the problems of individuals, but we treat a woman's problems as a shared problem. Some people see one girl not being serious about the game and conclude that girls as a demographic are not serious about the game. The problem with the community is that when someone asks "where are the female casters" we then get a massive thread where people keep saying that girls suck at the game as if Husk, Wheat, or Artosis are Korean GM players.
Don't worry, we are in agreement.
That's funny, because pretty sure Artosis could easily be one of the better players in NA if he wasn't caught up with his casting gig. Or are we going to start with Day9 is bad now too?
You know what's wrong with a woman showing her chest on her screen. It's when she does it repeatedly in order to garner views. And don't say that someone like Mia Rose doesn't do that, because she certainly does. As does to a slightly lesser extent Tara Babcock (she's not as bad; she only uses some sex appeal as a hook, but certainly does produce some level of content unlike Mia Rose), and various other female personalities out there.
Honestly, when you have shit like this going on, you can't tell me that some of the criticisms against females isn't justified. Until females stop using sex appeal to hook in viewers, the criticisms against them isn't going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it's not like we just made this shit up. It does happen, and more often than not, it happens way too much and gives good female players/personalities/casters a bad name.
Edit : Removed YouTube video, probably a little borderline too close to 'porn.' If you want to see what I'm talking about it's Strip Halo with Mia Rose and Ava Rose.
Not to mention, females not being in competitive environments has nothing to do with sexist practices/community issues/etc. It's because females simply don't like competitive environments. And no I did not make that up, so don't be a white knighting nerd that calls me a chauvinistic pig or some bullshit like that. Whether or not this is due to societal pressures or not, that's up to you to decide. However, don't pretend that the SC2 community is driving females away; it's not.
i agree with all of this except artosis can never be a good pro. i wont go further.
anyone who says sc2 community is sexist is actually saying the internet is sexist. the internet actually is NOT SEXIST. the internet is free speaking men and women saying and doing whatever they want. how many females are making porn style webcam stip shows? is it any wonder men who are naturally more driven for sex say things like "tits or gtfo" on the INTERNET!?!?
women who are scared to talk on a topic on the internet are scared because they are afraid of confrontation, not because the big bad mean ol men are pushing them away!
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
i think some men are weak and women have better control over her sexuality.
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
no one is treating women badly in sc2 they are treating OUTSIDERS who try to make a name for themselves but are bad, badly
does anyone intelligent shit talk you? no your an amazing player. when i was coming back to sc2 (took a 2 year break) i thought to myself who has the most solid macro style, while you have never won GSL i instantly thought of your play and tried to find a replay pack. i respect your play and i dont give a shit what gender you or anyone else is.
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked. has any girl here hung out with groups of guys? guess what guys talk about? tits, ass, sex this is a GUY THING. the same way girls talk about im not sure clothes and hot guys? its prob very similar but i wouldnt presume to go hang out with 10 women and be like LADIES PLEASE, STOP TALKING ABOUT MY PENIS! ITS OFFENSIVE TO PENISI EVERYWHERE! (penisi is the plural of penis look it up in a science book)
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
I probably could've made a new thread but I don't the skills to translate this article(and thus have an insufficient OP) and felt this would be the best place to post it.
The main gist of it is that Korea's doing a WSL(Woman's Star League) starting August 9th, and it'll be airing games on Afreeca every Saturday and Sunday.
I highly doubt there's going to be any coverage of it outside of Afreeca unless someone puts for the effort to restream it or finds a way to get into obsing it.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
On July 31 2013 11:48 Wombat_NI wrote: You chose a good time to return from your self-imposed exile from this thread Lichter :p
I won't debate the whole female caster thing because I have nothing to add about it and all the semantic arguments about sexism and feminism and reverse sexism and all that is a giant smelly cul de sac.
But when someone starts using words they don't understand in foul ways, ugh
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
Lets be clear, none of his posts are well informed. He mostly complains about women that bring up sexism and then claims its only a problem if women whine about it. It's a theme for a lot of posters in this thread.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
i think some men are weak and women have better control over her sexuality.
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
no one is treating women badly in sc2 they are treating OUTSIDERS who try to make a name for themselves but are bad, badly
does anyone intelligent shit talk you? no your an amazing player. when i was coming back to sc2 (took a 2 year break) i thought to myself who has the most solid macro style, while you have never won GSL i instantly thought of your play and tried to find a replay pack. i respect your play and i dont give a shit what gender you or anyone else is.
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked. has any girl here hung out with groups of guys? guess what guys talk about? tits, ass, sex this is a GUY THING. the same way girls talk about im not sure clothes and hot guys? its prob very similar but i wouldnt presume to go hang out with 10 women and be like LADIES PLEASE, STOP TALKING ABOUT MY PENIS! ITS OFFENSIVE TO PENISI EVERYWHERE! (penisi is the plural of penis look it up in a science book)
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
Actually, I would disagree with you and say that sexuality and gender does play a role in our every day lives because it is one of the most rudimentary building blocks of who we are and how we identify ourselves. That being said, people will have a different reaction to a particular gamer based on that gamer's gender. But there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Sexuality only becomes an issue when a group of people go out of their way to consciously try to intimidate, harass, excessively tease, or create an uncomfortable or even threatening environment for another individual. Note that I'm not specifically talking about "Lots of men vs one woman", but rather, a very broad outline for how a group of individuals can quite easily chip away at someone's sense of comfort through some form of sexual harassment. For example, if you were in a prison-type of setting, and a very muscular man looked at you and licked his lips, it could potentially be very unnerving, especially if you knew he had a reputation for rape.
Of course, this is a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates a broader point, which is that, while comments about "tits, ass, sex" may not be as directly threatening as the prospect of a sexual assault, can present a woman who is broadcasting a show feel self-conscious, or feel that she is worthless in her work as a caster, and that her viewers are mostly just tuning in to poke fun at her and make sexual overtures and innuendo. If that is the case (And I know it is, in very many cases) then don't expect that caster to stay encouraged enough to keep trying their best.
That being said, every woman is different. We're not all the same person. Some women have a very high tolerance to lewd comments and can block it out and stay focused. Others can't. It is very difficult for anyone, regardless of gender, to overcome a lot of crippling criticism unless they have very thick skin. And you can't just grow thick skin overnight.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
when i was in high school girls would make fun of "gamers" "nerds" and alieneate them. if girls perceive gaming as "bad" in regular society up untill now is it any wonder there are less girls playing games lol?
sexism is not keeping girls away, girl culture and upbringing combined with a 20 year gap in playing video games resulting in lesser skill sets is keeping girls away from gaming
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
i think some men are weak and women have better control over her sexuality.
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
no one is treating women badly in sc2 they are treating OUTSIDERS who try to make a name for themselves but are bad, badly
does anyone intelligent shit talk you? no your an amazing player. when i was coming back to sc2 (took a 2 year break) i thought to myself who has the most solid macro style, while you have never won GSL i instantly thought of your play and tried to find a replay pack. i respect your play and i dont give a shit what gender you or anyone else is.
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked. has any girl here hung out with groups of guys? guess what guys talk about? tits, ass, sex this is a GUY THING. the same way girls talk about im not sure clothes and hot guys? its prob very similar but i wouldnt presume to go hang out with 10 women and be like LADIES PLEASE, STOP TALKING ABOUT MY PENIS! ITS OFFENSIVE TO PENISI EVERYWHERE! (penisi is the plural of penis look it up in a science book)
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
Actually, I would disagree with you and say that sexuality and gender does play a role in our every day lives because it is one of the most rudimentary building blocks of who we are and how we identify ourselves. That being said, people will have a different reaction to a particular gamer based on that gamer's gender. But there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Sexuality only becomes an issue when a group of people go out of their way to consciously try to intimidate, harass, excessively tease, or create an uncomfortable or even threatening environment for another individual. Note that I'm not specifically talking about "Lots of men vs one woman", but rather, a very broad outline for how a group of individuals can quite easily chip away at someone's sense of comfort through some form of sexual harassment. For example, if you were in a prison-type of setting, and a very muscular man looked at you and licked his lips, it could potentially be very unnerving, especially if you knew he had a reputation for rape.
Of course, this is a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates a broader point, which is that, while comments about "tits, ass, sex" may not be as directly threatening as the prospect of a sexual assault, can present a woman who is broadcasting a show feel self-conscious, or feel that she is worthless in her work as a caster, and that her viewers are mostly just tuning in to poke fun at her and make sexual overtures and innuendo. If that is the case (And I know it is, in very many cases) then don't expect that caster to stay encouraged enough to keep trying their best.
That being said, every woman is different. We're not all the same person. Some women have a very high tolerance to lewd comments and can block it out and stay focused. Others can't. It is very difficult for anyone, regardless of gender, to overcome a lot of crippling criticism unless they have very thick skin. And you can't just grow thick skin overnight.
It's a difficult position to put yourself in, even if you tend to be quite empathetic and emotionally attuned. As a white male we tend to be judged on our own merits, not as a representative of a greater number, or a 'role model'.
To be honest it would drive me insane. The closest I've come to what I guess women experience a lot was being excluded from a meeting of a local feminist activist group. Wanted to come along, but was told (politely mind) that I wasn't welcome as my gender precluded me from understanding the issues being discussed.
Made me really fucking mad tbh, so god knows what that's like to face all the time. Even if it is mud being flung by puerile cave-dwellers, I guess it still has the potential to stick. I've somewhat changed my initial opinion actually, had a wee walk around the block earlier.
That said, I do diverge from Magpie a bit. I would still be critical of people who choose to use sex appeal to promote themselves (unless in a tongue-in-cheek manner). It's awkward for me, as I don't think that women should be judged as a representative of other women, but because they often are means perhaps conforming to (stereo)type isn't a productive approach in changing societal attitudes.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
A lot of girls are thrown into the "promiscuous attention whore" pile simply because they are women. That's a problem. Though I do not wish to discuss it further since it has been discussed to death.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
i think some men are weak and women have better control over her sexuality.
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
no one is treating women badly in sc2 they are treating OUTSIDERS who try to make a name for themselves but are bad, badly
does anyone intelligent shit talk you? no your an amazing player. when i was coming back to sc2 (took a 2 year break) i thought to myself who has the most solid macro style, while you have never won GSL i instantly thought of your play and tried to find a replay pack. i respect your play and i dont give a shit what gender you or anyone else is.
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked. has any girl here hung out with groups of guys? guess what guys talk about? tits, ass, sex this is a GUY THING. the same way girls talk about im not sure clothes and hot guys? its prob very similar but i wouldnt presume to go hang out with 10 women and be like LADIES PLEASE, STOP TALKING ABOUT MY PENIS! ITS OFFENSIVE TO PENISI EVERYWHERE! (penisi is the plural of penis look it up in a science book)
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
Actually, I would disagree with you and say that sexuality and gender does play a role in our every day lives because it is one of the most rudimentary building blocks of who we are and how we identify ourselves. That being said, people will have a different reaction to a particular gamer based on that gamer's gender. But there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Sexuality only becomes an issue when a group of people go out of their way to consciously try to intimidate, harass, excessively tease, or create an uncomfortable or even threatening environment for another individual. Note that I'm not specifically talking about "Lots of men vs one woman", but rather, a very broad outline for how a group of individuals can quite easily chip away at someone's sense of comfort through some form of sexual harassment. For example, if you were in a prison-type of setting, and a very muscular man looked at you and licked his lips, it could potentially be very unnerving, especially if you knew he had a reputation for rape.
Of course, this is a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates a broader point, which is that, while comments about "tits, ass, sex" may not be as directly threatening as the prospect of a sexual assault, can present a woman who is broadcasting a show feel self-conscious, or feel that she is worthless in her work as a caster, and that her viewers are mostly just tuning in to poke fun at her and make sexual overtures and innuendo. If that is the case (And I know it is, in very many cases) then don't expect that caster to stay encouraged enough to keep trying their best.
That being said, every woman is different. We're not all the same person. Some women have a very high tolerance to lewd comments and can block it out and stay focused. Others can't. It is very difficult for anyone, regardless of gender, to overcome a lot of crippling criticism unless they have very thick skin. And you can't just grow thick skin overnight.
guys are no dif. are there no women who make fun of men with small penis? or joke that they have one? if i played "fashionista" on the E networks website (a fictional game dominated by 99 percent females) wouldnt i be subject to anti male sentiments in both joking and serious manors? i suspect so. women can be PRETTY lewd in large groups even at a young age.
i went to boarding school for high school and you would have a guy dorm, and a girl dorm. if you were waiting in the female common room for your girlfriend or your guy friend who was with his girlfriend trust me when i say even young girls can be pretty "lewd" when in this female mob mentality. this is not limited to just guys. i once had 3 girls try to take my pants off after basketball practice to "see it". dont tell me women are so dif because they are 100 percent not
furthermore your talking about men "verbally attacking" women on streams with sexual innuendo and you think thats a sc2 thing? or a gaming thing? thats an internet thing. you are not at sc2 interwebs.com, right next door to you on your sc2 internet is the same internet broadcasting sex to the 10th power. trust me when i say the "verbal attacks" are not sc2 related in any way shape or form but rather unfiltered internet assholes. do you read youtube comments lol? do you even read anything else on the internet?
- gaming is dominated by men - girls can play video games BEAT THE MEN, and BE TREATED EQUALLY - girls can conversely stream a game they suck at, wear tight clothes and when they get shit from some men, complain that men said something mean to them - a guy can play a game, suck at it, and get flamed to hell but you dont see him complain about it being a man on man crime
im not saying dress and act like men to be accepted im saying that how on earth is a genderless activity giving girls so much grief unless they bring it upon themselves? the girl kaitlyn who was taken on quantic or ajuil who is a DIAMOND PROTOSS and got on a team are examples of girls abusing the fact that they are girls, or for my semantics guy "taking advantage of a sittuation", and not deserving it. if girls want to be treated equally then you must also WANT to be treated equally.
me a masters player, will never be recruited to a team because there are tons of guys like me. by sc2 standards if i was a team owner i would only ever take players who were at the VERY LEAST gm level. yet somehow 2 girls who cant win a single pro match are "pro gamers". they could have declined the offer because clearly they are there for marketing but they didnt which tells me that some girls complain about inequality and others abuse it. you cant have the best of both worlds
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
where are the female casters of professional football/soccer ? , where are the female casters of professional SC2 ? thats right 99.9% of women dont even care about those things . how is surprising that there are no female casters? how? this is the worst thead in history of teamliquid.
On July 31 2013 12:28 insanet wrote: where are the female casters of professional football/soccer ? , where are the female casters of professional SC2 ? thats right 99.9% of women dont even care about those things . how is surprising that there are no female casters? how? this is the worst thead in history of teamliquid.
i said that earlier but i actually enjoy stomping on white knights without a logical bone in his/her body
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
How you draw these conclusions from my post is beyond me.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative. 2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse. 3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
I did not mention anything about it being alright for men to be insulted. I did not mention anything about women being insulted as a standard that always happens.
I don't care if someone is bad at a game. They can stream it if they want to. Constructive criticism can be provided.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
On July 31 2013 12:28 insanet wrote: where are the female casters of professional football/soccer ? , where are the female casters of professional SC2 ? thats right 99.9% of women dont even care about those things . how is surprising that there are no female casters? how? this is the worst thead in history of teamliquid.
i said that earlier but i actually enjoy stomping on white knights without a logical bone in his/her body
You're not stomping on anyone. Even the sprinkling of sentiment I would agree with is articulated appallingly and consists solely of generalisations presented as immutable fact.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
Your leaps of logic and thought are ground breaking. It's amazing with people like you that we don't have more women in the scene.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
How you draw these conclusions from my post is beyond me.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative. 2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse. 3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
I did not mention anything about it being alright for men to be insulted. I did not mention anything about women being insulted as a standard that always happens.
I don't care if someone is bad at a game. They can stream it if they want to. Constructive criticism can be provided.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
ok fine but your problem is not with sc2 but the internet. people insult EVERYONE for EVERY REASON on the internet. its not because they are a girl or a guy, they are insulting people on the internet because they think its fun or they wana try and be witty. no one is honestly insulting WOMEN they are insulting PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET. you cant find me one GOOD GIRL GAMER stream where groups of people are insulting them. it doesnt exist.
- i will repeat this. there are no talented girl gamers who are being attacked anywhere on the internet anything CLOSE to what is being described in this thread
and im sorry to those people formulating thoughts with the intent to express higher levels of intelligence by adding unnecessary large words and such but my overall posts are easy to understand. the content matters not the packaging which is ironic on a thread about girls casting video games and being shunned from the community because of "her packaging"
there is no sexism in gaming there are sexist COMMENTS on the internet and you cant refute this its a fact
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
How you draw these conclusions from my post is beyond me.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative. 2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse. 3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
I did not mention anything about it being alright for men to be insulted. I did not mention anything about women being insulted as a standard that always happens.
I don't care if someone is bad at a game. They can stream it if they want to. Constructive criticism can be provided.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
ok fine but your problem is not with sc2 but the internet. people insult EVERYONE for EVERY REASON on the internet. its not because they are a girl or a guy, they are insulting people on the internet because they think its fun or they wana try and be witty. no one is honestly insulting WOMEN they are insulting PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET. you cant find me one GOOD GIRL GAMER stream where groups of people are insulting them. it doesnt exist.
- i will repeat this. there are no talented girl gamers who are being attacked anywhere on the internet anything CLOSE to what is being described in this thread
and im sorry to those people formulating thoughts with the intent to express higher levels of intelligence by adding unnecessary large words and such but my overall posts are easy to understand. the content matters not the packaging which is ironic on a thread about girls casting video games and being shunned from the community because of "her packaging"
there is no sexism in gaming there are sexist COMMENTS on the internet and you cant refute this its a fact
WTF? Her packaging? Really? You feel bad for people who use words you think are to big and unnecessary? And why do we need to find a girl gamer that fits your standard of good? I thought it was ok for anyone to stream, regardless of skill?
Dude, you really should quit while you're... well, I wouldn't say ahead but before the deficit widens, lets leave it at that.
But what I came in to to speak about was a caster I came upon when cruising the right-hand "on air" column for something to watch, a month ago or so. It was a team tourney a step or two below the pro level with the usual "bedroom crew" of casters (hey, I don't mind lacking of some fancy studio and even WCS used people sitting on skype in their homes in challenger league casting didn't they?): A couple of dudes doing play-by-play casting, decently enough iirc, but the third caster, that handled the analytical side of things much more than the other two, was female and she was doing one hell of a job! Very knowledgable about the game, talkative, entertaining and always using her comprehension about the game in the casting and analysis. In the "picking apart and expaining the gameplay" department I'd say she was doing damn well better than some, if not many, of the professional casters out there right now... I've seen her casting some other minor event(s) and hopefully she stays onto that course! She's a great caster, nothing more to say about it really.
Managed to find her stream: ZombieGrub Couldn't for the life of me remember her handle...
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
god dammit tachion.
There are good posts, I swears
The only good post in this thread is
On July 28 2013 19:40 lichter wrote: Soe is awesome
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
god dammit tachion.
There are good posts, I swears
The only good post in this thread is
On July 28 2013 19:40 lichter wrote: Soe is awesome
Terrible post, didn't even have the respect for the radiant Soe to do her the courtesy of using a full-stop at the end of your sentence.
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
god dammit tachion.
There are good posts, I swears
The only good post in this thread is
On July 28 2013 19:40 lichter wrote: Soe is awesome
Terrible post, didn't even have the respect for the radiant Soe to do her the courtesy of using a full-stop at the end of your sentence.
Fool, it's because her awesomeness is endless.
Fuck me, well played sir. Point conceded.
Incidentally, not being facetious or jokey, Soe is a pretty good broadcaster/personality and all-round good egg.
On July 31 2013 12:49 Tachion wrote: How Tachion? How can a thread about female casters get up to 570+ posts? You know you're curious, go check it out.
god dammit tachion.
There are good posts, I swears
The only good post in this thread is
On July 28 2013 19:40 lichter wrote: Soe is awesome
Terrible post, didn't even have the respect for the radiant Soe to do her the courtesy of using a full-stop at the end of your sentence.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
... what? Seriously I just want you to explain this. I don't understand how this is 'abuse' though I understand you are just saying it is a negative thing. Choosing your words correctly is important.
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
You need to understand what your words mean. Using 'mongoloid' this way... it doesn't really make you sound very informed.
oh ok so semantics are what you value lol. "taking advantage" "negative connotation"
i make a few points about "stupid people" and use the word mongoloid which on the internet means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" and you wana give me the textbook def which then what, makes the things i say less true/valuable? please, it doesnt make me seem uninformed it makes you ignoring the big picture and nit picking rather then addressing what i said.
So just because the word means "stupid blunt generally unintelligent" on the internet, it somehow makes it ok to use a word that is supposed to refer to populations that share the same traits (a majority of the Earth's population) as an insult and potentially a racist pejorative? Yes that does make what you say seem less sincere and less valuable because it reveals your character.
your entire post is about NOTHING other then you disapprove of my word choice lol
I've already stated my opinion earlier in this thread and in past threads. I see no need to repeat myself for your sake. I have also stated that I will not get any more involved in the debate regarding female casters and sexism and what have you, because it is obvious that the debate is a dead end on these fora. But when people start using words they don't understand and throw around insults, I must speak.
my point was just that the same way guys "abuse girls on the internet" is the same way girls USE or TAKE ADVANTAGE of guys on the internet or in real life. there is a clear parallel that can be drawn between the two. when a girl streams with massive cleavage and a webcam she ruins the respect for the other serious gamer girls and at the same time is taking advantage of guys who are sexually driven. its EXACTLY the same in the grand scheme of things.
Men that want that sexual stimulation receive a benefit from what promiscuous girls do. Yes they get manipulated and controlled, but it is not similar to throwing insults at someone. How you make that logical leap is beyond me. There is no parallel, though perhaps a small tangent.
Throwing insults (at the least) provides no benefit for the receiver. The receiver does not want it, tries to avoid it, but the abuser cares not for the receiver's preferences.
Promiscuous girls on stream provide a service (however wrong, however frowned upon), and men actively seek it.
so what you are saying is basically this
- a bad guy gamer will NEVER be insulted - a bad girl gamer will always be insulted
is this correct? i disagree lol. go find me a plat sc2 player who does cosplay and is male, and watch the hate that ensues lol
How you draw these conclusions from my post is beyond me.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative. 2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse. 3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
I did not mention anything about it being alright for men to be insulted. I did not mention anything about women being insulted as a standard that always happens.
I don't care if someone is bad at a game. They can stream it if they want to. Constructive criticism can be provided.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
ok fine but your problem is not with sc2 but the internet. people insult EVERYONE for EVERY REASON on the internet. its not because they are a girl or a guy, they are insulting people on the internet because they think its fun or they wana try and be witty. no one is honestly insulting WOMEN they are insulting PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET. you cant find me one GOOD GIRL GAMER stream where groups of people are insulting them. it doesnt exist.
- i will repeat this. there are no talented girl gamers who are being attacked anywhere on the internet anything CLOSE to what is being described in this thread
and im sorry to those people formulating thoughts with the intent to express higher levels of intelligence by adding unnecessary large words and such but my overall posts are easy to understand. the content matters not the packaging which is ironic on a thread about girls casting video games and being shunned from the community because of "her packaging"
there is no sexism in gaming there are sexist COMMENTS on the internet and you cant refute this its a fact
WTF? Her packaging? Really? You feel bad for people who use words you think are to big and unnecessary? And why do we need to find a girl gamer that fits your standard of good? I thought it was ok for anyone to stream, regardless of skill?
ok lets talk about a scenario.
I am a pro gamer. im at the top of my game, top 200 at any game
a girl who is in the bottom or middle percentage streams and gets 4k viewers every time because she has some sort of "sexy" thing going on with webcam.
im not saying she cant stream or what she is doing is wrong, she is providing something people want or they wouldnt tune in but i am not going to respect this player as a "gamer" worthy of this popularity? she is popular for non game related content and people are going to hate on her just like they hated on maximusblack
this player now gets recruited to a pro gaming house, because she is a girl who has viewers. she is not recruited to "win tournys" and there are no expectations of her winning anything. she is going to get hate JUST LIKE MAXIMUSBLACK
do you see what im saying? the girl is going to get flamed JUST AS MUCH as the guy in the SAME scenario. girls who are bad at sc2 get flamed just as much as guys its just more often the case because they "add a webcam".
girl gamers on twitch always have a webcam. why? why do they need a WEBCAM to play a VIDEO GAME. because it gets them more viewers and they know it. it has absolutely no intrinsic value yet they do it. they will love the boons it grants them aka viewers but complain about the hate they get (being bad and streaming webcam)
any way you slice it you are not getting treated differently because you are a women, you are being treated if ANYTHING completely the same as men but you are the ones who are making it hard on yourself by adding "gimics" for viewercount
protech isnt very good but his gimic is 2v2 right? the rest are good players and deserve it?
do u want me to just link streams that are unworthy of the viewers?
im not being sexist lol im being a realist. webcam without skill as a girl is a gimic with 99 percent of girl gamers. webcam with pros is also a gimic but you are a PRO this is your LIVING and you DESERVE IT
There is no expression from these 'unworthy' ones, or expectation among their viewership that they are to reach a pro level, or hell even a decent casual level.
On July 31 2013 13:23 Gr33n wrote: protech isnt very good but his gimic is 2v2 right? the rest are good players and deserve it?
do u want me to just link streams that are unworthy of the viewers?
im not being sexist lol im being a realist. webcam without skill as a girl is a gimic with 99 percent of girl gamers. webcam with pros is also a gimic but you are a PRO this is your LIVING and you DESERVE IT
No, let's not kid our selves here, your totally sexist. Unworthy of viewers, what a joke. 99 percent without skill, are you kidding? Just keep claiming its fact, I'm sure in your world it is.
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
Funny coming from you, because if you ever worked in the real world you would know this is actually true.
On July 31 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote: Ok lichter, the green light has just been lit
I'm at work though so I will probably just stream my crotch as I sexily open Excel spreadsheets and check my inventory while I berate my workers. Sexily.
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
Funny coming from you, because if you ever worked in the real world you would know this is actually true.
I don't hire overwhelmingly unattractive secretaries no matter how qualified, I confess.
On July 31 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote: Ok lichter, the green light has just been lit
I'm at work though so I will probably just stream my crotch as I sexily open Excel spreadsheets and check my inventory while I berate my workers. Sexily.
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
Funny coming from you, because if you ever worked in the real world you would know this is actually true.
I don't hire overwhelmingly unattractive secretaries no matter how qualified, I confess.
You think that people aren't hired based on their attractiveness? You do realize that there are actually multiple studies that demonstrate that high attractiveness is correlated to increased chances of getting a job right? And considering it's mostly men that are in positions of power (fact), it's not unlikely that men don't hire women based on their attractiveness.
On July 31 2013 13:51 Plansix wrote: It's like I don't even have to try, they just walk right into it.
Do you work? Because you would know the statement I said is true. Women are hired based on their attractiveness all the time. This isn't exclusively a merit that is based on women alone; attractive men get hired more often and promoted faster also.
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
this happens a lot actually. the women and men who dont do these things resent the men and women who get jobs because of looks. clearly you have never worked in your life lol
we are talking about the same thing in gaming. why does an unqualified gamer who streams, looks good, and advertises her looks get more viewers then a guy who is good but isnt an attractive female. there are females who DONT TALK EVER provide NOTHING on stream to entertain anyone other then the webcam and the game they play which can be often at times as large as the webcam
im a purist, i think in the game of sc2 skill should grant viewers for the most part. i get that entertaining people is important and at the end of the day they WATCH streams to be entertained and that comes in many forms but this girl im linking doesnt talk, she doesnt "do anything interesting" she purely gets viewers because shes is an above avg looking women with a webcam
she gets harassed all the time but she isnt complaining so why are women complaining about sc2 shunning them when its not sc2 but rather the internet as a whole thats just a hate filled environment for EVERY gender.
this entire debate is basically because someone insinuated women have it harder in gaming when thats just not true at all. women have it harder in basketball, baseball, soccer (football), football because they are physically weaker then men but i dont think there is a female who has ever said "its complete bullshit that he can push his mouse faster then me, its so heavy to us women and its unfair"
there is no internet gaming bias at all anywhere its just lack of respect for people who puts themselves out there get when they shouldnt be doing so
ive yet to see anyone post a single shred of evidence where females are being treated unfairly yet i can show you 10 examples of women being given advantages over men in gaming
On July 31 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote: Ok lichter, the green light has just been lit
I'm at work though so I will probably just stream my crotch as I sexily open Excel spreadsheets and check my inventory while I berate my workers. Sexily.
On July 31 2013 13:48 superstartran wrote:
On July 31 2013 13:43 Plansix wrote:
On July 31 2013 13:37 Gr33n wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gemieee/c/2634288 gets 3k viewers EVERY TIME isnt very good omegab a challenger player streams and gets no one watching
dont tell me webcams with attractive women are not showcaseing "non gaming" and in some cases "the wrong message"
- the only time women get flak (is it flack idn) for playing video games is if they keep talking about how they are women or go out of there way to show that they are a women and guys resent that. im upset with the fact that a GREAT player is not getting 5k viewers when a girl who is not very talented gets more attention
no one is condemning women for being bad they condemn them for being bad but taking spots away from GOOD casters because they are a women. they condemn them for taking advantage of the fact that there are less women in sc2 and taking a free ride to the top
there are women who everyone respects. is anyone here bashing flo? im fairly sure flo is a great player and hasnt been "bashed for being a girl"
there are no girl casters because there are no good girl casters thats it
Lol stealing viewer from good players. Your so funny, as if raw skill was the only reason we watched streams. Next you will be telling us that women are more likey to get hired because their boss want to look at their boobs.
Funny coming from you, because if you ever worked in the real world you would know this is actually true.
I don't hire overwhelmingly unattractive secretaries no matter how qualified, I confess.
You think that people aren't hired based on their attractiveness? You do realize that there are actually multiple studies that demonstrate that high attractiveness is correlated to increased chances of getting a job right? And considering it's mostly men that are in positions of power (fact), it's not unlikely that men don't hire women based on their attractiveness.
What? I agreed with you and admitted that I practice this same bias. @_@
On July 31 2013 14:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Regarding your 'sexy secretary', have you ever lichter?
*NB. If that pun is tolerated, I will be a relieved man.
I had to read that twice to get it lol
And no. I just make sure they aren't unattractive enough to bother me, but none of them are attractive enough (more circumstance than choice) to make me think about doing anything.
On July 31 2013 09:51 Thieving Magpie wrote: @gr33n
Wait--so you agree that when women try to talk about their interests on the Internet, they get immediately confronted and run away. Which, by definition, is exactly what feminists say that women are chased off in nerd/online culture causing a disparity in gender populations.
I'm glad you agree with us.
what... read what i wrote. i said there are the same number of women abusing men on the internet with webcam shows and sexuality (women have more obvious sexuality then men) as there are men abusing women with classic lines like "get me a sandwich, tits or gtfo"
there is literally no dif between these 2 genders and no alienating sexist agenda of men with video games. women are newcomers to the game, and with ALL NEWCOMERS TO ALL THINGS they are not going to be accepted right away and viewed as pretenders/posers or whatever. this isnt because they are women, its because they are new to the scene and people are very protective of it.
are women naturally prone to avoid confrontation? im not an expert but it seems that the internet is a great place for a female to speak her mind against the supposed male ostracism and convince them they are wrong
my guess? any women who feels "left out" is bad at the game she is playing, putting herself out there without being any good, and then complaining about how "men" treat her bad.
i got news for you, anyone who sucks and trys to get attention gets flamed and shit on no matter WHAT gender he/she is. this is gaming, we respect knowledge, skill. passion not sex organ, style, and physical appeal this isnt the E network.
Interesting definition of abusing men you got there
i think some men are weak and women have better control over her sexuality.
there are women who have men wrapped around there finger and thats not abuse lol? men are driven by one thing, women are driven by another. anyone using those drives to bend the other sex to his/her will is abuse. im not sure why women cant be abusive but men can?
no one is treating women badly in sc2 they are treating OUTSIDERS who try to make a name for themselves but are bad, badly
does anyone intelligent shit talk you? no your an amazing player. when i was coming back to sc2 (took a 2 year break) i thought to myself who has the most solid macro style, while you have never won GSL i instantly thought of your play and tried to find a replay pack. i respect your play and i dont give a shit what gender you or anyone else is.
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked. has any girl here hung out with groups of guys? guess what guys talk about? tits, ass, sex this is a GUY THING. the same way girls talk about im not sure clothes and hot guys? its prob very similar but i wouldnt presume to go hang out with 10 women and be like LADIES PLEASE, STOP TALKING ABOUT MY PENIS! ITS OFFENSIVE TO PENISI EVERYWHERE! (penisi is the plural of penis look it up in a science book)
ill also add that where there is no sexism among intelligent human beings there are a slew of exceptions to the rule running around spewing hate regardless. if you get mad because some stupid ogre mongoloid posting something sexist, you have thin skin. your avg human being doesnt care about men or women. its generally a case about vocal minority
Actually, I would disagree with you and say that sexuality and gender does play a role in our every day lives because it is one of the most rudimentary building blocks of who we are and how we identify ourselves. That being said, people will have a different reaction to a particular gamer based on that gamer's gender. But there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Sexuality only becomes an issue when a group of people go out of their way to consciously try to intimidate, harass, excessively tease, or create an uncomfortable or even threatening environment for another individual. Note that I'm not specifically talking about "Lots of men vs one woman", but rather, a very broad outline for how a group of individuals can quite easily chip away at someone's sense of comfort through some form of sexual harassment. For example, if you were in a prison-type of setting, and a very muscular man looked at you and licked his lips, it could potentially be very unnerving, especially if you knew he had a reputation for rape.
Of course, this is a somewhat extreme example, but it illustrates a broader point, which is that, while comments about "tits, ass, sex" may not be as directly threatening as the prospect of a sexual assault, can present a woman who is broadcasting a show feel self-conscious, or feel that she is worthless in her work as a caster, and that her viewers are mostly just tuning in to poke fun at her and make sexual overtures and innuendo. If that is the case (And I know it is, in very many cases) then don't expect that caster to stay encouraged enough to keep trying their best.
That being said, every woman is different. We're not all the same person. Some women have a very high tolerance to lewd comments and can block it out and stay focused. Others can't. It is very difficult for anyone, regardless of gender, to overcome a lot of crippling criticism unless they have very thick skin. And you can't just grow thick skin overnight.
guys are no dif. are there no women who make fun of men with small penis? or joke that they have one? if i played "fashionista" on the E networks website (a fictional game dominated by 99 percent females) wouldnt i be subject to anti male sentiments in both joking and serious manors? i suspect so. women can be PRETTY lewd in large groups even at a young age.
i went to boarding school for high school and you would have a guy dorm, and a girl dorm. if you were waiting in the female common room for your girlfriend or your guy friend who was with his girlfriend trust me when i say even young girls can be pretty "lewd" when in this female mob mentality. this is not limited to just guys. i once had 3 girls try to take my pants off after basketball practice to "see it". dont tell me women are so dif because they are 100 percent not
Did you actually read what I wrote, or just skim through it and take it as an argument? Both of those things you described are exactly what I'm talking about. You're talk about a double-standard, and I'm talking about the fact that people being sexually harassed.
furthermore your talking about men "verbally attacking" women on streams with sexual innuendo and you think thats a sc2 thing? or a gaming thing? thats an internet thing. you are not at sc2 interwebs.com, right next door to you on your sc2 internet is the same internet broadcasting sex to the 10th power. trust me when i say the "verbal attacks" are not sc2 related in any way shape or form but rather unfiltered internet assholes. do you read youtube comments lol? do you even read anything else on the internet?
Again, you're not only misconstruing what I said, but also are being unnecessarily condescending. Just because vulgarity is used in other places on the internet, it does not make it right, nor necessarily acceptable. There was actually a thread not to long ago talking about how new casters rarely make it because of how much negative feedback they receive. In some cases, the feedback may be warranted, but if it is unwarranted, it doesn't matter which gender they are - cutting them down is not right, and we shouldn't simply "accept it" because it's only half as brutal as encyclopediadramatica.
im not saying dress and act like men to be accepted im saying that how on earth is a genderless activity giving girls so much grief unless they bring it upon themselves? the girl kaitlyn who was taken on quantic or ajuil who is a DIAMOND PROTOSS and got on a team are examples of girls abusing the fact that they are girls, or for my semantics guy "taking advantage of a sittuation", and not deserving it. if girls want to be treated equally then you must also WANT to be treated equally.
me a masters player, will never be recruited to a team because there are tons of guys like me. by sc2 standards if i was a team owner i would only ever take players who were at the VERY LEAST gm level. yet somehow 2 girls who cant win a single pro match are "pro gamers". they could have declined the offer because clearly they are there for marketing but they didnt which tells me that some girls complain about inequality and others abuse it. you cant have the best of both worlds
I agree with you here, but I can't defend everything Quantic, as a team, decides to do. In my opinion, they made a poor decision if they were looking for a talented player who can win titles. But what you're arguing is that there is a double-standard, but say:
NO ONE CARES IF A GAMER IS A GIRL OR A GUY. thats what im saying. this sexism thing is a falsehood made up by girls who decided to hang out with guys and someone metaphorically slapped her ass and she freaked.
And you blame "girls" for creating an illusion of sexism, despite the fact that singling out a specific sex as the source of unfair favoritism, you in fact, are being sexist by it's very definition. Now, while I agree that sexism is wrong, you have to see both sides of the coin and realize that both men and women can be sexist, both towards the opposite sex, and their own sex. That being said, this thread is about female casters, so discussing Kaitlyn in this case is largely irrelevant.
So, let's say there was a black guy who wanted to cast SC2. And let's also say he wasn't very good, like at all. People would say "Hey, you suck.", along with a bunch of racial remarks, like "I didn't know they could afford computers in Compton." but even if our black caster friend was a good caster, inevitably, there would be people who would still throw his heritage right in his face as an insult. After enough of this, even if someone pays him a compliment jokingly, such as "This nigga is a good caster, and I'm saying this as a white guy." it would probably still piss the caster off, or create a unwelcoming environment, one that says "No matter how good you are at what you do, you'll always just be that black guy who casts." Then at this point, he can take the high road and embrace that role, even poking fun at it, or become discouraged and retire. Unfortunately, the latter of those two is more likely to be the case, because there is only so much a person can take before they say "Fuck this." and stop what they're doing.
You could say "Hey, black people say racist things all the time, but cry about it whenever they hear racism." It's the same fucking thing though. It's not right no matter who does it, and it's not right to try and justify it because you believe there is a double-standard, because if you believe there is a double-standard in regards to a race as a whole, then you are buying into the belief that a whole race generally conforms to a certain set of standards. And the same goes for sexism.
its just insane to me to read people suggest that anyone is keeping women away from sc2.
no one attacks women any more then they attack men? there is a double standard but there isnt anyone worth mentioning on a mission to keep women out of gaming or esports at ALL.
if your problem is with "anyone attacking anyone" then your problem is with humans on the internet and guess what, you wont win lol
if your problem is that you feel women specifically are being targeted then what you are actually doing is noticing when women are attacked but not when men are. since there are so few women in sc2, when someone attacks one it seems like its a bigger deal then it is when every single male in the community of merit has been harassed in ways NONE of these women could imagine
lets talk about women casters since of course this whole topic is derailed.
CASTERS ARE AS FOLLOWS
- lauren elise - knew nothing about sc2, she was brough on purely for her looks
- kelly milkies - by far the worst caster ever called helions race cars and this may seem unfair but her accent didnt help her in any way and it most def hurt her. its hard to cast english with a bad accent this isnt her fault but you dont see me losing my legs and complaining that the other runners are faster then me such is life. may i add she ditched sc2 for greener pastures and that photo shoot didnt help
i honestly cannot think of anyone else who qualifies as a caster
does anna or seltzer count? no they are not casters or "hosts of shows" smix is the best translator thus far regardless of her head nodding but she isnt a caster so find me one women caster who has been CHASED AWAY but actually is pretty good?
as a side note, i actually have met more racist black people then white people, just saying
It's funny because most bans in this thread are in fact representative of one of the reasons we don't see many women casters, let alone women in esports.
@Poster above: one thing not to be dismissed is that the "examples" (Kelly Milkies, Lauren Elise) and the community may actually prevent that we ever see good women casters.
Women that want to be recognized for their cast, not for their look. Women that want to be respected by the community (not gonna happen before quite some time....) Women that want to do what they enjoy without any gender consideration, without getting insulted, without getting belittled and told to "get out because it's a men game", without their skills being dismissed while their look is the only thing that matters ("show boobs", "you're cute", etc, things men will never get because men aren't the target of discrimination), without being threaten of rape by some idiots when they do something these dislike a lot (again, men don't really get that sort of threats...), without being considered noob at this game when they tell things untrue/not correct (things men caster also do, but they just get a "oh god he's wrong", while women, like we saw with Lauren Elise, will get something along the line of "get out, girl, it's not your turf, etc).
There's a lot of reason that would explain the fact we actually never saw good women caster, and may never will for quite some time.
What could even be the point, as a woman, of trying hard, just to get much flame when you finally get to do what you truly enjoy ?
above poster no and if i wasnt random internet guy you would believe me but ill quote kennignt or whatever his name is spelled like on the chanman show
"there are not many good female sc2 players because there are not many female sc2 players"
so i say
"there are not many good female casters because there are not many females casting" but yet what i say isnt true and what he says is what? also wrong? math doesnt lie
On July 31 2013 16:25 Gr33n wrote: its just insane to me to read people suggest that anyone is keeping women away from sc2.
no one attacks women any more then they attack men? there is a double standard but there isnt anyone worth mentioning on a mission to keep women out of gaming or esports at ALL.
if your problem is with "anyone attacking anyone" then your problem is with humans on the internet and guess what, you wont win lol
if your problem is that you feel women specifically are being targeted then what you are actually doing is noticing when women are attacked but not when men are. since there are so few women in sc2, when someone attacks one it seems like its a bigger deal then it is when every single male in the community of merit has been harassed in ways NONE of these women could imagine
lets talk about women casters since of course this whole topic is derailed.
CASTERS ARE AS FOLLOWS
- lauren elise - knew nothing about sc2, she was brough on purely for her looks
- kelly milkies - by far the worst caster ever called helions race cars and this may seem unfair but her accent didnt help her in any way and it most def hurt her. its hard to cast english with a bad accent this isnt her fault but you dont see me losing my legs and complaining that the other runners are faster then me such is life. may i add she ditched sc2 for greener pastures and that photo shoot didnt help
i honestly cannot think of anyone else who qualifies as a caster
does anna or seltzer count? no they are not casters or "hosts of shows" smix is the best translator thus far regardless of her head nodding but she isnt a caster so find me one women caster who has been CHASED AWAY but actually is pretty good?
as a side note, i actually have met more racist black people then white people, just saying
On July 31 2013 17:40 Gr33n wrote: above poster no and if i wasnt random internet guy you would believe me but ill quote kennignt or whatever his name is spelled like on the chanman show
"there are not many good female sc2 players because there are not many female sc2 players"
so i say
"there are not many good female casters because there are not many females casting" but yet what i say isnt true and what he says is what? also wrong? math doesnt lie
That completely misses the point, nor doesn't answer to what I've said in any way.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
point in case.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
On August 01 2013 00:14 Wertheron wrote: Ok, just read the first and the last page.
End of the first: debate on chromosom. End of the last: debate on mongoloid and racism.
Title of the topic: "Where are the female casters?"
What a cool and mature community we have.
Don't generalize the entire community based on the first and last things you notice in a thread that has dozens of pages .
I think people have made some pretty salient points in this thread. We generally understand that its partially demographical, but also we know that there must be some sexism involved because it exists everywhere and would likely exist in this scene as well, although I doubt its meaningful or serious as younger people tend to be more progressive. I guess it exists in a lighter form, more as people just making jokes although they might not be aware of how offensive those jokes might be if they were female.
On August 01 2013 00:14 Wertheron wrote: Ok, just read the first and the last page.
End of the first: debate on chromosom. End of the last: debate on mongoloid and racism.
Title of the topic: "Where are the female casters?"
What a cool and mature community we have.
We have gone dark places since this thread started. People have done a careful, well executed dance in an effort to prove that sexism is not a problem on the internet because everyone is a jerk on the internet. And that is it is female streamers fault that there are sexist men harassing them because they are stealing viewers from SC2 players that are better at the game than them. They steal these viewers with a webcam and their "package," because the sexist men cannot resist to look at them due to a total lack of free will. Just when you thought we had gotten over the issue of blaming women for attracting unwanted attention from men, back to the 50s we go.
Its been a good time and a nice reminder of how far we have to go with some of the parts of the community.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
I don't understand why we are arguing this. It's offensive to Asians and people with Down syndrome. Might be a good idea to not use it. I think we've learned from destiny's incident that whether or not you think it's ok is irrelevant.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
this is actually really funny lol. i dont get into it with people who debate semantics of commonly used internet phrases
above the above poster. no one said any of that you are just taking my words and twisting them. i simply said there are women who want to be treated equally and then there are those who dont just like men.
now can we get husky, destiny, sheth, desrow, idra, artosis, tasteless, moletrap, doa to post emails they got similar to this? i bet those guys had it way worse
just stop please with sexism ,it just doesnt exist here. video games are one of the few things on this planet that a women can equally play with men and somehow there is "sexism". bullshit find me proof
also to the above poster are u kidding lol. mongolians slaughtered so many people for no reason back in those days so are you suggesting that someone is upset about me insinuating that mongoloids are barbaric idiots (which is a ref to the barbaric mongol empire in china all those years ago....) and i should "be careful when insulting 100s of year old peoples"
lol. the oversensitivity is staggering in a place where one google search can bring you to neo nazi fanpages and the most racist ignorance a person can find in this world. oh but please when i say "man that was gay as shit" please think im talking about homosexuals and not simply using gay as an adjective completely unassociated with gay people of whom i have no problems with and when i say mongoloid a single asian man sheds a tear somewhere in asia.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
point in case.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
this is actually really funny lol. i dont get into it with people who debate semantics of commonly used internet phrases
above the above poster. no one said any of that you are just taking my words and twisting them. i simply said there are women who want to be treated equally and then there are those who dont just like men.
now can we get husky, destiny, sheth, desrow, idra, artosis, tasteless, moletrap, doa to post emails they got similar to this? i bet those guys had it way worse
just stop lol sexism it just doesnt exist here. video games are one of the few things on this planet that a women can equally play with men and somehow there is "sexism". bullshit find me proof
I may have missed something but are yous saying sexism in gaming doesn't exist and to find you proof... then you linked examples of women being sexually assaulted in gaming?
EDIT: and as for your edit. its pretty uncool to admit your okay with offending people and the problem may not be your understanding of sexism but your understanding of humanity.
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
point in case.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
this is actually really funny lol. i dont get into it with people who debate semantics of commonly used internet phrases
above the above poster. no one said any of that you are just taking my words and twisting them. i simply said there are women who want to be treated equally and then there are those who dont just like men.
now can we get husky, destiny, sheth, desrow, idra, artosis, tasteless, moletrap, doa to post emails they got similar to this? i bet those guys had it way worse
just stop lol sexism it just doesnt exist here. video games are one of the few things on this planet that a women can equally play with men and somehow there is "sexism". bullshit find me proof
I may have missed something but are yous saying sexism in gaming doesn't exist and to find you proof... then you linked examples of women being sexually assaulted in gaming?
a classic example of someone seeing what they want to see. im saying here are 2 women, can you ask husky to post his emails? i heard that people were threatening to rape destinys child? is that because they are sexist or because people on the internet just hate on ppl no matter what sex they are and say shit for shock value
oh and im 100 percent saying that women have no harder time playing video games then men. only the women who advertise they are women, say they are "a girl gamer" or say things like "im really good for a girl" or think that "girls need girl tournys" and such have any issue but the same shit happens to guys who do this too.
maximus black joined a pro team but hes not good at sc2, can you guess how much hate he got from the community? its the same exact hate katlyn is getting now. is it because shes a girl and hes a guy? no its because these people advertise themselves or put themselves in scenarios that demand levels of skill they dont have and people and specifically gamers resent that
Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
A summary of my post: 1. The term 'mongoloid' should not be used as an insult. It's not supposed to be an insult but has become a popular racist pejorative.
1.1 Who made you the chief censor of the internet, and what can/should be used or not ? 1.2 Since when 'mongoloid' is a 'race' ? There is an ethic group called 'mogol', but clearly the common use of the adjective 'mogoloid' is not directed at them. now-a-day when someone use 'it is a terrific idea' it is not meant with the etymological meaning of terrific : 'that inspire terror'
2. Use your words wisely because inadvertently opting to use racist insults makes you look bad, and your argument worse.
It is ironic that you trhow away term like 'racist' carelessly in a sub-thread where you object to the abuse of the term 'abuse' (mind you you only object in half the cases.... only when it serve your argument)
3. Insulting a reluctant woman and Seducing a receptive man are not equally "abuse".
point in case.
Insults, no matter the time, the place, or the circumstances, are unnecessary.
be that as it may, 'unnecessary' does not imply 'banned'... especially when the 'banning' seem to be very selective. apparently the threshold for 'insult' is quite asymmetric.
this is actually really funny lol. i dont get into it with people who debate semantics of commonly used internet phrases
above the above poster. no one said any of that you are just taking my words and twisting them. i simply said there are women who want to be treated equally and then there are those who dont just like men.
now can we get husky, destiny, sheth, desrow, idra, artosis, tasteless, moletrap, doa to post emails they got similar to this? i bet those guys had it way worse
just stop lol sexism it just doesnt exist here. video games are one of the few things on this planet that a women can equally play with men and somehow there is "sexism". bullshit find me proof
I may have missed something but are yous saying sexism in gaming doesn't exist and to find you proof... then you linked examples of women being sexually assaulted in gaming?
a classic example of someone seeing what they want to see. im saying here are 2 women, can you ask husky to post his emails? i heard that people were threatening to rape destinys child? is that because they are sexist or because people on the internet just hate on ppl no matter what sex they are and say shit for shock value
I was not seeing what I wanted to see. I asked you for clarification. Now I understand that you are trying to equate the harassment random females online have to endure to that of public figures that step forward in the spotlight. If your point is that sexism does not exist in gaming because everyone gets shit there are a few holes i would like to punch in your argument. EDIT: ninja edits op :/
oh and im 100 percent saying that women have no harder time playing video games then men. only the women who advertise they are women, say they are "a girl gamer" or say things like "im really good for a girl" or think that "girls need girl tournys" and such have any issue but the same shit happens to guys who do this too.
maximus black joined a pro team but hes not good at sc2, can you guess how much hate he got from the community? its the same exact hate katlyn is getting now. is it because shes a girl and hes a guy? no its because these people advertise themselves or put themselves in scenarios that demand levels of skill they dont have and people and specifically gamers resent that
you are incorrect. no one pointed to maximus black's gender as a reason for his success.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
above poster. go to every video game stream and find me a girl who is not streaming with webcam. then go find me the LOWEST girl streamer with a webcam and what will you notice? the girl with the cam has substantially more viewership. she doesnt need to use a webcam. no one cares how she looks if she can be entertaining without one? i watch lots of games without webcams it doesnt detract too much from the stream potential but of course it helps. now on those girls who are streaming webcam are they bad at that game? yes. so the ever defensive gaming community sees this bad gamer and insults her for "not being a real gamer" or other childish comments getting potentially more aggressive and you automatically think, yep this is because its a chick right? wrong. by using a webcam you are now way more out there. you are now saying to the people watching, both me in real life and me in game are important. if her in real life wasnt important to her stream why does she have a webcam?
i will admit that there are "prejudices" or "preconceived" notions of women who use webcams and im sure there are a few women who get some "unfair" treatment but i would hardly call these VERY FEW people who target women gamers reps for gaming and sexism in gaming because for every sick individual who hates women, there are equally sick individuals who hate men
in order for there to be sexism in gaming i believe that one gender must gain significant advantages by being male/female and that gender must also experience less obstacles put in his/her way on the way to playing said game. I dont see this anywhere in gaming. anywhere.... in.... gaming....
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
thats not too broad its just wrong. obviously they didn't say they were going to rape desiny's child because of his gender EDIT: are you saying that saying "tits or gtfo" isnt sexist?
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
If you point out what he's doing wrong he'll stop posting such hilarious stuff, let him keep going. This is like that one guy who argued that women's rights was the reason the economy was bad in Poland. You can't get this kind of funny on TV.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
thats not too broad its just wrong. obviously they didn't say they were going to rape desiny's child because of his gender EDIT: are you saying that saying "tits or gtfo" isnt sexist?
I think he's saying that "tits or gtfo" is equal to threatening someone with rape, but that both are okay.
I'm very tempted to throw some oil on the fire. There's so much language related misunderstandings and misinterpretations in this thread which are sprouting rants about non-related or hypothetical issues.
Just stop, and to some of you; stop being a dick -> you'll make friends -> you'll be happier -> men and women rejoice -> magical esports and casting -> worldpeace.
[Insert mandatory Community clip titled "Gaayyyy"]
If there's any kind of demand, though, why not work together and make a nice collection-(fan?)-thread about casters that includes female casters? No?
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
If you point out what he's doing wrong he'll stop posting such hilarious stuff, let him keep going. This is like that one guy who argued that women's rights was the reason the economy was bad in Poland. You can't get this kind of funny on TV.
Ohhhhh I see now. This thread is still open to provide a road map and further proof the insane justifications of sexism exists in the community. Very meta.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
thats not too broad its just wrong. obviously they didn't say they were going to rape desiny's child because of his gender EDIT: are you saying that saying "tits or gtfo" isnt sexist?
I think he's saying that "tits or gtfo" is equal to threatening someone with rape, but that both are okay.
Well its all ok, only because everyone is being treated like garbage. It can't be a problem if everyone is being abused and then the abuse isn't really there. Seems legit.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
in order for there to be sexism in gaming i believe that one gender must gain significant advantages by being male/female and that gender must also experience less obstacles put in his/her way on the way to playing said game. I dont see this anywhere in gaming. anywhere.... in.... gaming....
yo there is a definition for sexism, you can't make a new one just cause you feel like it. and stop editing shit into your posts lol
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
saying "tits or gtfo" is sexist if you can't understand that ill explain it to you separately. doing something for any reason that is sexist is still sexist. EDIT: and doing sexist stuff is bad
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
in order for there to be sexism in gaming i believe that one gender must gain significant advantages by being male/female and that gender must also experience less obstacles put in his/her way on the way to playing said game. I dont see this anywhere in gaming. anywhere.... in.... gaming....
yo there is a definition for sexism, you can't make a new one just cause you feel like it. and stop editing shit into your posts lol
i edit so im not spamming and im not redefining sexism im defining it
Q - are there advantages in sc2 that women or men get? A - no
Q - are women being told STOP PLAYING YOU ARE A GIRL by any significant amount of people in sc2? A - no, but sometimes people make mean comments about them
Q - are men being told STOP PLAYING YOU ARE A DUDE by any significan amount of ppl in sc2? A - no, but sometimes ppl make mean comments about them
the dif is that there are 10s of thousands more men playing games that catch shit talk and substantially less women so when women complain it feels like its a bigger deal then it really is and feel "targeted"
picture this....
100 men play sc2 10 women play sc2 5 assholes run around hating on everyone
5 assholes hate on 5/100 male sc2 players, not a big deal 95 percent of the men dont experience this "hate" so its hard to understand what these 5 men are complaining about
5 assholes then also hate on 5/10 female sc2 players. HOOOOOLY CRAP, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT 50 PERCENT OF FEMALE GAMERS ARE BEING ATTACKED BY THESE SEXIST PIGS
no whats happening is a small population representation is being attacked just as much as the men but because there are far less, it feels like a much larger attack then it really is
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong things to do" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
see you are a troll or an idiot. we both agree they are not ok to do, but if you think they are hating on women because they are women then you are just 2x the idiot
im not responding to you anymore you clearly are trolling (u MAY be stupid tho idn...)
EXACTLY ABOVE POSTER!! people just say the most offensive thing they can say, if its a women they reach for the best female joke its not because they care shes a girl its generally because they wana be a dick
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
well the actions towards them are not genderless hate. additionally in your average game of dota fewer people will make sexual comments to you if you use voice chat with a masculine voice as compared to a female voice. No average gamer could compile such a list of hate messages like the ones from the women you linked above.
additionally its more socially acceptable to be a nerd and a guy than a nerd and a girl and everyone is taught this since the time they enter society.
additionally just by trying to step on the scene women's motives are called into question purely becuase of their gender it is assumed they are there to get attention.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
see you are a troll or an idiot. we both agree they are not ok to do, but if you think they are hating on women because they are women then you are just 2x the idiot
im not responding to you anymore you clearly are trolling (u MAY be stupid tho idn...)
EXACTLY ABOVE POSTER!! people just say the most offensive thing they can say, if its a women they reach for the best female joke its not because they care shes a girl its generally because they wana be a dick
But why can't people discuss sexist comments and the possibility(no matter how slight) of sexism people separate from other forms of internet hate? It is easier to address one at a time, rather than address all internet hate at once.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
I only vaguely know who Destiny is but I hear his/her name a lot in relation to this topic, what exactly are they famous for?
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
I think his point is that he thinks the haters are spinning some wheel of fortune type device going "hmmm who shall I hate on next?" and it just so happens to land on the slot of a woman, so they use gender insults against them. If their wheel o' hate landed on young boys they would have lashed out at them, like it's some indiscriminate act that was inevitably going to happen anyway in some form or another.
On August 01 2013 01:25 Thieving Magpie wrote: ------
User was temp-banned, so no need for me to continue the discussion with him
Ah playing that card are we, we must continue this discussion till all the ignorant misogynists on TL choke on our discourse.
In all seriousness it's really good to see TL posters come out and defend women in gaming, I get so sick of the attitudes on other forums (*cough* reddit *cough*)
I don't understand why we are arguing this. It's offensive to Asians and people with Down syndrome. Might be a good idea to not use it. I think we've learned from destiny's incident that whether or not you think it's ok is irrelevant.
Context matter, and words can have multiple meanings... that is why context matter. (btw: you are excluding American Arctic tribes and a lot of Pacific Islanders out of your definition of choice... humm... I guess they should be offended too)
Bear in mind that in my culture, the very idea to use the term 'race' in the context of a human population is considered offensive and racist. In my culture there is only one human 'race'.
see:https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme "Le racisme est une idéologie qui part du postulat de l'existence de races humaines" Racism is an ideology that start from the postulate that there exist (multiple) human races.
With that in mind, should I be able to force every english-speaking community to change their way and the meaning they ascribe to 'race' in that context, in order not to offend others ? or is this rule only apply when _you_ are offended ?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
I only vaguely know who Destiny is but I hear his/her name a lot in relation to this topic, what exactly are they famous for?
He was derogatory. Sponsors pulled support, his fans whined that saying racist/misogynist stuff is okay because "internet."
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
I only vaguely know who Destiny is but I hear his/her name a lot in relation to this topic, what exactly are they famous for?
He is a popular streamer that used to play sc2(now plays LoL). On the incident I am referring to, he used a racial slur in a ladder game which was screen capped and posted on reddit. Long story short he was forced to leave his proteam over the ensuing outrage.
On August 01 2013 01:25 Thieving Magpie wrote: ------
User was temp-banned, so no need for me to continue the discussion with him
Ah playing that card are we, we must continue this discussion till all the ignorant misogynists on TL choke on our discourse.
In all seriousness it's really good to see TL posters come out and defend women in gaming, I get so sick of the attitudes on other forums (*cough* reddit *cough*)
It was a very specific response to his post, I'll still be in this thread for a while
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
I only vaguely know who Destiny is but I hear his/her name a lot in relation to this topic, what exactly are they famous for?
Making the classic argument that words and just words and its someone else's fault if they are offended by them. And creating the single worst post in SC2 history(look that one up yourself, but we do not talk about it). To be fair, he is a very smart guy, but doesn't like to admit "Ok, I may have gone to far there."
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S EDIT: + Show Spoiler +
On August 01 2013 00:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
So let me get this straight, it's okay to make gendered insults, because even though they're gendered I didn't "intend" to be sexist, just offensive. smh
Apparently he also believes that you can use use racist and homophobic insults for the same reason. Yeah for the record, that explanation didnt really work for Destiny when he tried it.
I only vaguely know who Destiny is but I hear his/her name a lot in relation to this topic, what exactly are they famous for?
He is a popular streamer that used to play sc2(now plays LoL). On the incident I am referring to, he used a racial slur in a ladder game which was screen capped and posted on reddit. Long story short he was forced to leave his proteam over the ensuing outrage.
look i found an example about how people are against racism too. therefore this whole "women just asking for special treatment" thing you have going on is obviously not correct right?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
On August 01 2013 00:43 Plansix wrote: Don't argue with him, he is doing the classic "shift the burden of proof" argument that is so popular on the internet. He poses a wild theory that is only true on the broadest terms and then demands you prove him wrong. Then he can just dismiss your claims over and over while never having to make any real arguments himself. He can even post “evidence” that doesn’t even support his claim, because his argument is so broad and overreaching, it can’t really be argued against. He fully admits that women are treated poorly and judged due to their gender, but claims that isn’t a problem because other people are treated poorly for other reasons. How do you argue against that?
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
Just because the world is shitty for a lot of people doesn't me we ignore the problem or say "It could be worse, suck it up". It is easier to address one problem at a time, rather than try to fix them all at once. We are not here to say that other problems are not problems.
On August 01 2013 00:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
Rethoric is all fine and all, but I failed to see the benefit of trivializing very serious crime by completely misusing the terms that describe them.... here, since that is the theme of the day, consider me very offended by that.
On August 01 2013 00:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
fuck that! you hate people like me? double standard?! non-existent problem!?
you wana take this convorsation outside the context of gaming and try and tell me that there isnt a problem with "everyone being a jackass to women" is there somewhere where i said that i didn't go to gay pride parades that is making you feel like i have this double standard? you think fighting for equality and freedom is a bad thing? I have a problem with people who are toxic in the gaming environment. I also have a problem with sexist people, homophobic people, racist people, and you. how does wanting these things to disappear make me focusing on a problem that doesn't exist.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
how is talking about maximus black or kayln broad in any way lol. im talking about super specific scenarios. the opposite is true where in fact YOU are not posting any specific evidence to prove YOUR point
go watch the vod about this very topic where destiny can be quoted saying "one person said they wanted to rape my child"
your telling me that some dudes said "tits or gtfo" and a girl went crying and shouting SEXISM SEXISM but destiny can get emails about rape fantasy over his child and thats "just the internet hating again" but has nothing to do with his gender?
btw am i being "too broad" or are these specific and cited examples working
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people don't rape children because they have fathers. People do attack douche-bags by insulting, such as saying that they'll rape their children. How is that the same as girls getting attacked *because* they're girls?
On a second note, why can't both be wrong on their own merits?
Threatening rape is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it. Harassing women is bad, objectively, and we should stop people from doing it.
The fact that other people in the internet do it doesn't stop it from being bad, objectively.
and i agree that both of those things are bad but those two things share one thing in common, they both are happening because this person is putting themselves on the INTERNET AS A HUMAN BEING.
all human beings on the internet regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and level of completion on HOTS campaign are going to be attacked and hated on. stop pretending people say "tits or gtfo" because they are sexist, they say it because its a joke thats easily got. if you wana insult a fat person make a fat joke, if you wana insult a gay person make a gay joke, if you wana insult a girl make a joke about her being a girl can you stop pretending this is about sex its not
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
Just because the world is shitty for a lot of people doesn't me we ignore the problem or say "It could be worse, suck it up". It is easier to address one problem at a time, rather than try to fix them all at once. We are not here to say that other problems are not problems.
You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist. There's no systematic abuse/discrimination against women in online gaming. It's just assholes being assholes. Two, totally, different, problems. If you want to get rid of assholes on the internet, good luck.
Rethoric is all fine and all, but I failed to see the benefit of trivializing very serious crime by completely misusing the terms that describe them.... here, since that is the theme of the day, consider me very offended by that.
Wait.
So if you insult women, women should just take it, but when comadose insults you then he's being ridiculous?
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
When you sexually harass a girl, its sexism.
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
When you make fun of someone's race, its racism.
etc...
The existence of one doesn't make the others okay.
It's not okay to threaten rape because fat people are also attacked. And its not okay to attack fat people, just because others are being threatened with rape.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
Rethoric is all fine and all, but I failed to see the benefit of trivializing very serious crime by completely misusing the terms that describe them.... here, since that is the theme of the day, consider me very offended by that.
Battery is a physical attack. Assault is verbal. That is the legal definition of the word and how people use it. It is why we have assault and battery and they are separate crimes.You can be sexual assaulted with words and you can be battered without being assaulted.
im NOT SAYING ITS OK BECAUSE IT EXISTS. IM SAYING IT DOESNT HAPPEN BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE OTHERS FOR NO GOOD REASON
do caps work for you? how on earth can u read the posts i make and say "well they are all wrong" of course they are all wrong im not saying that at all rofl read what i write kid
so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
On August 01 2013 01:13 ComaDose wrote: [quote] so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
On August 01 2013 01:13 ComaDose wrote: [quote] so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
On August 01 2013 01:13 ComaDose wrote: [quote] so what's your point.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
You didn't really have much of one, you mostly said that people were mean to everyone, so its not a problem. People do not agree and think it is a problem and as a community we can try to address or mitigate the hate and have an open open environment for all groups. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean people should stop talking about it.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
Any kind of joke is <something>-phobic by this standard and therefore are bad... Jokes must be banned....
example: Belgian joke: "why is there no lighting on French Autoroute (Interstate Highway in the US)... because they all think they are so bright!" French Joke: "why do Belgian do not practice water-skying.... because they can't find a lake steep enough"
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
Any kind of joke is <something>-phobic by this standard and therefore are bad... Jokes must be banned....
example: Belgian joke: "why is there no lighting on French Autoroute (Interstate Highway in the US)... because they all think they are so bright!" French Joke: "why do Belgian do not practice water-skying.... because they can't find a lake steep enough"
Off color human is always acceptable in the right company. However, it is also always "use at your own risk of offending someone". Context is key and you know this because you yelled at someone for context on the last page.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Believing that calling someone gay is an insult is, by definition, homophobic.
You need be someone who believes that gay < straight to be able to make that accusation.
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
On August 01 2013 01:28 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:28 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 01:28 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:28 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
Any kind of joke is <something>-phobic by this standard and therefore are bad... Jokes must be banned....
example: Belgian joke: "why is there no lighting on French Autoroute (Interstate Highway in the US)... because they all think they are so bright!" French Joke: "why do Belgian do not practice water-skying.... because they can't find a lake steep enough"
If the only things you find funny is demeaning others, then you don't know very much about comedy.
people are suggesting the hate towards women MUST be because they are female, im saying the hate towards them is just genderless hate that everyone gets but because they are females they just use female hate jokes
if it was a gay person it woulda been a gay joke and if it was a white person it woulda been a white person jokes (im not sure what that joke is)
its all just genderless hate
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
See that _is_ the problem: trying to slice people is smaller group, based criteria completely irrelevant to the topic at hand (here playing SC2... SC2 is a game, as far as I know your computer is not 'aware' of your gender and does not make the game harder for you based on that) That behavior is a <foo>-ism regardless of what arbitrary criteria you use to separate the good for the bad, using completely asymmetrical standard of 'offensiveness'. For instance... a lot of people on both side use 'being a dick' as a way to describe a behavior... where is your outrage at the obviously gendered nature of the remark ?
guys do not have the monopoly on being a 'dick', the form of dickishness may be different among different people, from puerile remarks about sexual appendage to passive-agrresive... but this is not an inherently 'male' attribute (the adjective, not the noun)
sure its generless hate but sometimes, jokes, and i mean agressive ones, just fit better with females so idiots do them without thinking. as example i really wonder no one said shit like "in the kitchen" as answer to this thread ... people normaly just are dicks and its just often easier being a dick to girls
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
On August 01 2013 01:28 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So why is it people throw such a huge fit when it comes to insulting women on the internet, when other people regularly insult others with racist terms, derogatory terms, etc.? You know how many times I've seen 'You're a faggot' and I haven't seen one gay person complain about it? Or how when someone drops the n bomb towards black people online.
Why is it women in particular get this special treatment? Everyone else from every other walk of life gets pretty harsh abuse themselves. This is exactly why I call someone like Plansix or Theiving Magpie white knights, because they are talking up about a problem that is virtually non-existent. Yes, some assholes are being sexist to be sexist. However, said same assholes probably call me all sorts of Asian related derogatory terms, yet I don't make a huge fuss 'THE INTERNET IS OUT TO GET ASIAN PEOPLE.'
pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
See that _is_ the problem: trying to slice people is smaller group, based criteria completely irrelevant to the topic at hand (here playing SC2... SC2 is a game, as far as I know your computer is not 'aware' of your gender and does not make the game harder for you based on that) That behavior is a <foo>-ism regardless of what arbitrary criteria you use to separate the good for the bad, using completely asymmetrical standard of 'offensiveness'. For instance... a lot of people on both side use 'being a dick' as a way to describe a behavior... where is your outrage at the obviously gendered nature of the remark ?
guys do not have the monopoly on being a 'dick', the form of dickishness may be different among different people, from puerile remarks about sexual appendage to passive-agrresive... but this is not an inherently 'male' attribute (the adjective, not the noun)
Actually a pretty reasonable point, closer to my personal view that the gender roles that society designates do not solely have a negative impact on women. A lot of homophobia towards gay men is motivated by an unease people feel towards men who have more traditionally feminine characteristics.
I am not sure if it's a modern phenomenon, but I've seen men get lambasted in public simply for saying hello to a cute kid who was running around them in a supermarket or on a bus, which simply wouldn't happen if it was a women doing the same.
they say:You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them.
This is where there is a distinct difference of opinion. I have derived the opposite conclusion by observing the community. I do not believe being comfortable with sexist, homophobic, and racist comments comes in a joint bundle of being an ass hole. This cannot be used to summarize the "real" problem. I believe those comments represent three different problems that all need to be fixed. I hope i can help, even if just by being a good example, in as many problems as i can. I can't imagine a person who actively fights to dismiss problems. EDIT: If you are saying its not fair but its just the way it is. I am saying lets try and make things more fair. Why are you getting in my way?
On August 01 2013 01:40 Thieving Magpie wrote: Wait.
So if you insult women, women should just take it, but when comadose insults you then he's being ridiculous?
I'm sorry where to you get that from ?
1/ I have already stated multiple time that _I_ do not recognize the 'right' not to be offended... that, of course,apply to myself too. 2/ when I use 'I am offended' in this argument, it is a rethorical tool. of course I am not and even if I was that would be irrelevant... but since the argument _is_ made that 'being offended' is a valid reason for censure etc.. then I apply that same argument... it is a called 'reductio ad absurdum'
3/ I never advocated that anyone 'take' it... I'm just objecting to you apparent will to give separate treatment to 'insult women' and 'insult men' or 'insult <any arbitrary sub-group-you want->'
4/ as far as I know comadose as not insulted _me_, yet... (and yes, if your and other make under-handed derogatory comment about men in general... I don't consider it a personal insult. it is more, in this case, an illustration of your lack of internal logical coherency than an insult toward my person.)
On August 01 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: Battery is a physical attack. Assault is verbal. That is the legal definition of the word and how people use it. It is why we have assault and battery and they are separate crimes.You can be sexual assaulted with words and you can be battered without being assaulted.
On August 01 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: Battery is a physical attack. Assault is verbal. That is the legal definition of the word and how people use it. It is why we have assault and battery and they are separate crimes.You can be sexual assaulted with words and you can be battered without being assaulted.
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
On August 01 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: Battery is a physical attack. Assault is verbal. That is the legal definition of the word and how people use it. It is why we have assault and battery and they are separate crimes.You can be sexual assaulted with words and you can be battered without being assaulted.
"An act, criminal or tortious, that threatens physical harm to a person, whether or not actual harm is done"
Have you considered reading things before you post them in threads or do you just like looking like an idiot? Words can have more than one meaning, they are flexible like that.
ZombieGrub is a legit up and coming female caster. I have worked with her in the past she is very professional and takes great pride in her broadcasting work. Definitely recommend her to any tournaments that are seeking a balanced casting duo. Tons of potential still untapped with her.
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
But we don't agree on that point and that isn't likely to change. So why do you keep trying to make sure that people won't talk about the sexism that they believe is a problem in the sections community?
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
And as each problem crops up we deal with it as well. Hate speech is not solved by ignoring it.
The existence of hate speech is not a reason to support it.
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
man im even cool with people being dicks online. its just annoying that they are dicks to entire groups of people that have suffered oppression.
On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote: [quote] pick your battles man. if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news. why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
All societal adjustments start from small communities banding together, and influencing greater society as a whole, exactly! Hello btw fellow Emerald Isle dweller! It's the same as people who reframe race arguments to downplay them 'oh well black people can say nigger and we can't' when it's largely an irrelevance to the issue.
I'm not a 'white knight' for wanting to have a game in which I'd have an expectation that my partner could go and play online without getting told to get her tits out all the time once it becomes apparent she is a woman.
The only advantage women have in E-sports is a higher capacity to multitask anyway.
I wish some of the articulate female voices who told us of their own experiences would come back into the discussion, especially ZombieGrub who actually IS a caster and give us more of their personal anecdotal accounts.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote: [quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet.
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
No one here said dickish behavior is fine or anything like that; what we're saying is that it is unrealistic to believe that we can curb it to the point where everyone is nice to each other or some other fantasy bullshit. Unless you remove the anonymity of the internet, you cannot possibly expect everyone to play nice.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
Are you talking about the Articles that Planxis and I pointed out proved your conclusion wrong? All 4 of them revealed that the ability for women to perform tasks were the same as mens, and their performance was the same when competing against each other. The only time there was a difference was that men improved when they were pitted against women.
Planxis then pasted the conclusions of one or two of the articles pointing out that they believed that it was a social problem that women didn't try harder in competition.
You literally posted 4 articles that proved your point wrong.
And no, Aphrodite having a job does not erase misogyny for the same reason that Barack Obama becoming president has not erased racism.
Yes it is. and many major religion still have it as a central tenet... And in many place in the world that sexism is exhibited in physical violence, civil right denial, asymmetrical law that make gender distinction etc...
and its likely a problem in gaming.
wait.. 'likely' a problem ? so all that high-horsing for something that _may_ be a problem ?
Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
How about dealing with the 'problem' that are more than just 'likely' first ? How about dealing with them in a way to is not an-eye-for-an-eye, iow not like the way these problem are typically address in the US: oh there is 'discrimination', it's bad, let organize a 'discrimination' of our own so that surely will balance things out and everything will be swell. I know that homeopathy is popular in some circles... but I doubt that is a good way to address societal problems.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
Are you talking about the Articles that Planxis and I pointed out proved your conclusion wrong? All 4 of them revealed that the ability for women to perform tasks were the same as mens, and their performance was the same when competing against each other. The only time there was a difference was that men improved when they were pitted against women.
Planxis then pasted the conclusions of one or two of the articles pointing out that they believed that it was a social problem that women didn't try harder in competition.
You literally posted 4 articles that proved your point wrong.
And no, Aphrodite having a job does not erase misogyny for the same reason that Barack Obama becoming president has not erased racism.
Holy fuck. You really don't read.
You realize that in every article, that the males actually scored on average better than women in virtually every type of test right? Read, the, graphs. And that the whole point of posting said articles was to demonstrate that women for whatever reason do not like entering competitive environments.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
No I dont want to get rid of people being dickish i just want to get rid of people being racist sexist and homophobic (willing ot add to the list tho). how can we do that?
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
You know what my chat rules say for my twitch stream?
"There are no mods, I don't give a fuck what you say."
Is that not a better solution to your extreme proposal?
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
All societal adjustments start from small communities banding together, and influencing greater society as a whole, exactly! Hello btw fellow Emerald Isle dweller! It's the same as people who reframe race arguments to downplay them 'oh well black people can say nigger and we can't' when it's largely an irrelevance to the issue.
I'm not a 'white knight' for wanting to have a game in which I'd have an expectation that my partner could go and play online without getting told to get her tits out all the time once it becomes apparent she is a woman.
I saw your country displayed and thought I'd show mine in solidarity :p
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
It's foolish to think words have no intrinsic power, you experienced their intrinsic power when people abused you and saying that you were at fault for being offended is not a healthy attitude to harbour. It legitimises their abuse by saying "it's not abuse if you're not offended, and if you are offended it's your fault."
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
No I dont want to get rid of people being dickish i just want to get rid of people being racist sexist and homophobic (willing ot add to the list tho). how can we do that?
My idea removes all of it, or curbs it to an extent where it is almost non-existent. As a plus, it also removes pretty much all potential for any future dickish behavior in any way possible. Good luck convincing the internet to do that.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
I'm all for it. I can be what others consider being a 'dick' under my real name and identity. If you don't have the courage to tie your spoutings in with your personal identity, don't be an idiot online.
On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems?
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
Ah, hi guys, i didn't see this topic until just now, a little late to the party :x I'm from BaseTradeTV and I've cast with quite a few women at this point, so just looking to add my 2 cents. I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but one of the main problems regarding most women when it comes to casting is their voice.
Unless you sound like this (an over exaggeration ofc) it's hard for most peoples to actually listen to you, and as a caster/commentator the reality is that you just end up sounding like a young boy. In TV you have Bart Simpson, or Ash Ketchum voiced by adult women because their 'natural' voice tones sound a lot similar to a teenage boy than any guys'. The problem doesn't just apply to women of course, if I'm casting and my voice is squeeky & randomly cracks and I have a lisp, nobody is going to enjoy listening to that cast, so why would they watch it?
Sc2 Commentating/Casting is often more about listening than watching, so the focus has to be on what pleases your ears. Sadly, especially when filtered through a cheap headset mic, most women don't end up sounding that pleasing when yelling about crazy games Unless you have an incredibly sexy Australian accent to pair with it, of course.
On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote: [quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
You'll be on a never ending quest then. Only real way to fix the issue is to make people take responsibility for their actions. The only way to do that is to remove the veil of anonymity on the internet. Until you remove said veil of anonymity, people will continue to be jackasses, pirate (essentially the essence of stealing), and do all other sorts of nonsense on the internet.
On August 01 2013 03:09 Rif_king wrote: Ah, hi guys, i didn't see this topic until just now, a little late to the party :x I'm from BaseTradeTV and I've cast with quite a few women at this point, so just looking to add my 2 cents. I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but one of the main problems regarding most women when it comes to casting is their voice.
Unless you sound like this (an over exaggeration ofc) it's hard for most peoples to actually listen to you, and as a caster/commentator the reality is that you just end up sounding like a young boy. In TV you have Bart Simpson, or Ash Ketchum voiced by adult women because their 'natural' voice tones sound a lot similar to a teenage boy than any guys'. The problem doesn't just apply to women of course, if I'm casting and my voice is squeeky & randomly cracks and I have a lisp, nobody is going to enjoy listening to that cast, so why would they watch it?
Sc2 Commentating/Casting is often more about listening than watching, so the focus has to be on what pleases your ears. Sadly, especially when filtered through a cheap headset mic, most women don't end up sounding that pleasing when yelling about crazy games Unless you have an incredibly sexy Australian accent to pair with it, of course.
Solution to the voice issue?
We have to teach Joan Rivers the intricacies of Starcraft.
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
I read you saying that like "I hate all Muslims because of extremists"
On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote: [quote] what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious?
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all.
Gay jokes are homophobic, female jokes are sexist, race jokes are racist. They're all bad, and they're all part of the community we are in both online and offline.
It being the internet doesn't make it okay to do any of it.
Any kind of joke is <something>-phobic by this standard and therefore are bad... Jokes must be banned....
example: Belgian joke: "why is there no lighting on French Autoroute (Interstate Highway in the US)... because they all think they are so bright!" French Joke: "why do Belgian do not practice water-skying.... because they can't find a lake steep enough"
Off color human is always acceptable in the right company. However, it is also always "use at your own risk of offending someone". Context is key and you know this because you yelled at someone for context on the last page.
I yelled ? did I accidentally used all-caps ? If I did, sorry... I rarely resort to that kind of gimick to make a point.
now: "use at your own risk of offending someone"
That is not a risk, that is a certainty. no matter what you say or how you say it, someone somewhere will be offended. And beside that was not the arguments here... the poster claimed that 'female jokes are sexist' which I assume really meant 'joke making fun of female are sexist'... he did not allow for any exception or context... it was a plain absolute statement. by that standard my 'Belgian joke (making fun of French)' is 'french-ist' full stop.
And yes, I do agree that context matter, and that a 'joke' can be a mean-spririted attack in disguise... but that is not an equivalence... In any case I fail to see why some joke topic need topic a preferential treatment... should we add 'male joke are mysandric' to the list ?
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ?
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote: [quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
[quote]
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote: [quote]
Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue.
[quote]
Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job.
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all.
That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc.
In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
On August 01 2013 01:59 Plansix wrote: Off color human is always acceptable in the right company.
btw: _that_ is an argument to encourage discrimination in a sub-group... by that standard, to maintain the ability to make such a joke, you have to maintain a 'good company', iow chase away people that would be offended....
Seems to me that such standard is actually working _against_ the desired goal.
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement.
Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it.
People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
He suggested that simply making personal information present on the web will stop bigotry even though real life bigotry already happens face to face in the offline world. He believes that the bigotry online does not come from the same bigotry that people have off-line.
His solution doesn't address the problem because it assumes that there is no real problem.
I am suggesting that the motivations for sexism is not the same motivations for anti-semitism or racial profiling. That different forms of social degradation have different histories and hence requires different tactics to resolve.
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Oh yeah that really makes women feel welcome when they try to engage with the community and get told to get "back in the kitchen" and shouted down with "nice tits". That's not an issue at all, I don't see any laws about it, how could you even think that we might have a problem here? /s
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
I played for years football leagues. For the last years on college, we had forums for the leagues. Almost everybody knew each other. We still baited, trolled and flamed each other like there is no tomorrow. I find that the biggest reason why people flame and what not, is not being anonymous, but being on your comfortable chair at home.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote: [quote] Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all.
That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc.
In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
I don't see anyone complaining about advantages anywhere, and i support that stuff too... are you against gay pride parade and black history month because it just "segregates"?
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement.
Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it.
People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it.
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote: [quote] Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all.
That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc.
In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
I actually agree with you on this btw, perhaps I got you mixed up with somebody else. My point was more that it's sexist intent, not just 'people being an asshole', and the sexism is showcased just as much by the benefits that female personalities get than the negative attention.
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Believing that calling someone gay is an insult is, by definition, homophobic.
You need be someone who believes that gay < straight to be able to make that accusation.
You need someone who believes that gay < straight to be able to be offended by that statement. as I said earlier... it takes 2 to tango. I've rarely seen more offended by that so-called 'accusation' that a straight man that do think that gay < straight or that is so insecure in his sexuality that he fell threatened by the mere notion of being called 'gay'.
Society will have made real progress on that front when calling someone 'gay' will not be perceived by most as being 'an accusation'... by banning a specific word you are just covering the symptom and as history as proven times and times again, just shifted to the use of another word that will be tagged with some alternate meaning...
On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote: [quote] are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement.
Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it.
People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it.
I like discussions with people I don't agree with, quite often more so than those I do agree with. I just expect a bit of self-evaluation from other people.
I don't mind insults I don't mind disagreements.
I do mind people going around, posting bullshit about the Illuminati on videos about the jazz fusion stylings of Guthrie Govan. I do mind people spamming the latest memetic phrase that they have lifted from 9gag.
Interesting discussion can only occur in an environment free of such ridiculous background noise. If you want to have something to say, actually think of something to say instead of abusing people and going 'it's a free country hurhur'
On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general.
If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior.
I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks.
I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo".
We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.'
On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:
On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:
On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote: [quote] Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion?
Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention.
You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias.
On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism
So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao.
We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it.
Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed.
'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.'
Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings.
2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.
3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted.
4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal.
So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so?
If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all.
That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc.
In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
So lets get down to pay dirt on this one:
Eve was in the GSTL league and sat on the bench for a single broadcast. She was on the team and likely should not have been due to her skill level at the time. However, the team, Slayers, was felt that putting her on the bench would be fine and there wouldn't be any harm in it.
In response there were hundreds of hate fill messages, photos shops of her face put onto pornographic images and other forms of abuse. All for the act of sitting on a bench and doing as she was told by her team. Now mind you, this girl was very young at the time and was scouted by Jessica of team slayers.
Do you think the response to the simple act of sitting on a bench and being on a team was ok? And do you think the response would have been any different if she was not a girl, but another minority group in the SC2 scene?
On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote: [quote]
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement.
Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it.
People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it.
I like discussions with people I don't agree with, quite often more so than those I do agree with. I just expect a bit of self-evaluation from other people.
I don't mind insults I don't mind disagreements.
I do mind people going around, posting bullshit about the Illuminati on videos about the jazz fusion stylings of Guthrie Govan. I do mind people spamming the latest memetic phrase that they have lifted from 9gag.
Interesting discussion can only occur in an environment free of such ridiculous background noise. If you want to have something to say, actually think of something to say instead of abusing people and going 'it's a free country hurhur'
But, it is a free country, so I am failing to see your point.
Who cares what you mind or don't mind? How's it affect anyone else? If someone wants to go around with a 9gag memetic phrase, who the hell are you to stop them?
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US.
When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability.
You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem.
That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself.
Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue.
Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game.
How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Its not going to get you any dates with a girl worth dating either. It might get you slapped, but that is the risk you take if you say this stuff in public. Oh wait, we aren't talking about saying things in public.
EPT
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so there are even fewer casters I imagine.
I probably could've made a new thread but I don't the skills to translate this article(and thus have an insufficient OP) and felt this would be the best place to post it.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FTUbth1.jpg)
