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Morning all,
I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports).
Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them?
(*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.)
(**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic)
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in "real" sports, women tend to be token in broadcasting. generally they are sideline reporters etc. not surprised to see few woman casters in esports, considering they tend to appeal to men
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How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
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United States33668 Posts
can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
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On July 28 2013 18:55 Waxangel wrote:
can we stop saying 'female' when 'women' is equally applicable
"Female casters" is surely the normal speech patern. You'd say "male casters", not men casters....
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There just aren't that many. I don't see the big deal about it.
kellyMILKIES casted the GSL briefly in 2011.
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How is the korean female GSL caster doing? I don´t understand korean so I never listen to her, but is she popular?
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France9034 Posts
It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all.
Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc.
The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...)
On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"...
And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism.
And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?"
You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
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On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
In soccer there's Gabby Logan. In tennis Sue Barker, Lindsay Davenport and a couple of others. Being a Brit I don't know about NFL or NBA, and I agree that most sports have more male commentators than women, but the complete lack of any prominent women casting major events seems odd. Also, while we're on the topic, the most prominent horse racing commentator/pundit in the UK is probably Claire Balding.
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Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
User was warned for this post
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They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast.
Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique.
Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming.
On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
I'd edit that out if I were you.
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On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias.
There's one female NBA caster. Doris Burke, so don't include the NBA like you know all the people who cast NBA games on ESPN and ABC and TNT.
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On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote:They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming. Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually I'd edit that out if I were you.
Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
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France9034 Posts
On July 28 2013 19:10 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote:They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming. On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually I'd edit that out if I were you. Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes.
Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
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On July 28 2013 19:10 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote:They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming. On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually I'd edit that out if I were you. Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender.
Because that discussion can't lead anywhere good.
And IIRC mods have shown little patience for it.
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On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote:It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all. Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc. The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...) Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias. So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports.
My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
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France9034 Posts
On July 28 2013 19:14 Chinnro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote:It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all. Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc. The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...) On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias. So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports. My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir.
WRONG WRONG AND WRONG !
Girls are NOT 5% of the market ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games
It's roughly balanced ! So stop considering they are a very small part of this !
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On July 28 2013 19:12 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:10 grs wrote:On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote:They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming. On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually I'd edit that out if I were you. Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender. People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter.
That's like saying ''He is black but asks us to consider him white. Skin colour doesen't matter.''
It does matter. I will call her female, because I got respect for her, but when talking conrecetely about gender, I will admit, that Scarlett has an Y chromosome.
User was banned for this post.
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On July 28 2013 19:16 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:14 Chinnro wrote:On July 28 2013 19:04 Ragnarork wrote:It's hard to dodge the topic of sexism (and esp. as you said, "latent" sexism) because it might be one of the reasons we don't see that much women in esports at all. Even though there might not be blatant sexism (like people simply refusing women in these specific domains), we're still in a society that (sadly) qualifies women as weaker and not suited for some jobs/roles. Some people consider it "bad" to lose to a women for example. Some other would say this isn't their "place" etc. The fact is, even if you don't encounter this kind of behavior directly as a female, there are cases where we witnessed that this atmosphere hold back some women, prevent them to jump in and try these roles, because they consider themselves that it's not their place/role and that they're not suited for that (and in my opinion it's a fucking shame that this can happen, that people belittle themselves because others printed by force this idea in their mind through society...) On July 28 2013 18:54 Chinnro wrote:
How many female casters in nfl, nba, soccer etc? None. It's not that they can't, it's just that positions are usually offered on merit, not based on sex...affirmative action died with the explosion of feminism. I'm sure if theyre an intelligent, experienced, articulate and passionate caster, it doesn't matter what sex they are. If a woman was offered a great casting role the community would dismiss it as gender bias. So uh, yeah, in a world that is roughly half women, half men, you only find "merit" by men ? Of course, that seems "logical"... And please respect feminism. Affirmative action didn't die with it. FEMEN aren't feminism. And about your bolded part, "so don't give caster positions to women because people would think she doesn't merit ?" You sir, are part of the reasons there's so few women in esports. My wife, and daughter, are both avid gamers. Unfortunately they make up less than 5% of the market....it's a simple numbers game...nothing to do with gender. If you get the 100 best casters together none of them will be female. Get off you high horse, sir. WRONG WRONG AND WRONG ! Girls are NOT 5% of the market ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_gamesIt's roughly balanced ! So stop considering they are a very small part of this !
It's balanced when you factor in all Sims, MMOs and facebook games.
The more competitive and hardcore a game is the less female gamers it has.
It's pretty simple really.
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France9034 Posts
On July 28 2013 19:16 Thylacindae wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 19:12 Ragnarork wrote:On July 28 2013 19:10 grs wrote:On July 28 2013 19:06 pmp10 wrote:They are too busy hosting or just looking pretty to cast. Like it or not casting takes experience knowledge and a bit of luck to break into existing clique. Girls for whatever reasons have never been drawn to hardcore competitive gaming. On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually I'd edit that out if I were you. Why? There is nothing wrong about that. Don't confuse sex with gender. People decide. You have nothing to infer from their chromosomes. Scarlett asks us to consider her a women, just do so. Chromosomes don't matter. That's like saying ''He is black but asks us to consider him white. Skin colour doesen't matter.'' It does matter. I will call her female, because I got respect for her, but when talking conrecetely about gender, I will admit, that Scarlett has an Y chromosome.
I understand the logic, but this is different IMO. I consider that respect does include not taking chromosome into account (what for ?) though I don't really know if there's more to that than just my opinion...
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EPT
