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On August 01 2013 03:16 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:07 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:
[quote]
Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning. c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me. are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs? No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment. what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice? My idea? No one would like it. If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other. Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US. When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability. You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem. That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself. Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue. Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game. How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Oh yeah that really makes women feel welcome when they try to engage with the community and get told to get "back in the kitchen" and shouted down with "nice tits". That's not an issue at all, I don't see any laws about it, how could you even think that we might have a problem here? /s
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On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:
My idea? No one would like it.
If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other.
I played for years football leagues. For the last years on college, we had forums for the leagues. Almost everybody knew each other.
We still baited, trolled and flamed each other like there is no tomorrow. I find that the biggest reason why people flame and what not, is not being anonymous, but being on your comfortable chair at home.
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On August 01 2013 03:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 03:11 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:08 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:54 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:48 TWIX_Heaven wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it. Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community. And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter. And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes. There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having. 1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women. 2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve. 3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males. 4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.' 1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings. 2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted. 4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal. So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so? If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all. That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc. In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
I don't see anyone complaining about advantages anywhere, and i support that stuff too...
are you against gay pride parade and black history month because it just "segregates"?
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On August 01 2013 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:16 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 03:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:07 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:[quote] c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me. are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs? No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment. what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice? My idea? No one would like it. If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other. Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US. When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability. You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem. That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself. Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue. Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game. How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws... Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement. Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it. People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 03:11 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:08 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:54 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:48 TWIX_Heaven wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it. Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community. And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter. And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes. There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having. 1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women. 2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve. 3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males. 4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.' 1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings. 2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted. 4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal. So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so? If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all. That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc. In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
I actually agree with you on this btw, perhaps I got you mixed up with somebody else. My point was more that it's sexist intent, not just 'people being an asshole', and the sexism is showcased just as much by the benefits that female personalities get than the negative attention.
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On August 01 2013 02:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia'
Believing that calling someone gay is an insult is, by definition, homophobic.
You need be someone who believes that gay < straight to be able to make that accusation.
You need someone who believes that gay < straight to be able to be offended by that statement.
as I said earlier... it takes 2 to tango.
I've rarely seen more offended by that so-called 'accusation' that a straight man that do think that gay < straight or that is so insecure in his sexuality that he fell threatened by the mere notion of being called 'gay'.
Society will have made real progress on that front when calling someone 'gay' will not be perceived by most as being 'an accusation'... by banning a specific word you are just covering the symptom and as history as proven times and times again, just shifted to the use of another word that will be tagged with some alternate meaning...
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:22 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 03:16 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 03:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:07 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs? No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment. what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice? My idea? No one would like it. If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other. Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US. When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability. You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem. That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself. Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue. Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game. How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws... Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement. Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it. People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it.
I like discussions with people I don't agree with, quite often more so than those I do agree with. I just expect a bit of self-evaluation from other people.
I don't mind insults
I don't mind disagreements.
I do mind people going around, posting bullshit about the Illuminati on videos about the jazz fusion stylings of Guthrie Govan. I do mind people spamming the latest memetic phrase that they have lifted from 9gag.
Interesting discussion can only occur in an environment free of such ridiculous background noise. If you want to have something to say, actually think of something to say instead of abusing people and going 'it's a free country hurhur'
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On August 01 2013 03:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 03:11 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:08 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:54 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:48 TWIX_Heaven wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:
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I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed.
I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem.
I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic.
And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds.
I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
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Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:
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It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine'
Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo'
Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it. Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community. And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter. And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes. There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having. 1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women. 2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve. 3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males. 4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.' 1) He provided a single study that showed that women in general are uncomforatable in competative settings. The study also stated that this is likely caused by social issues and that with support and efforts to address the confidence issues, the women well in competitive settings. 2) He proved that some female players were given undue advantage due to being women. However, the existence of the does not preclude sexism or prove that it is not a problem, only that separate problem may exist.3) Hate speak, like threats of violence, is not defined by the intent of the speaker, but the perception of the person being threatened/insulted. 4) We are not required to prove that sexism exists, because it is given fact. It is a problem in all social groups. It is a larger problem in social groups that are dominated by males, which SC2 community is. Unless other factors exist, we can safely assume that sexism is a problem in the community on some level. From accounts of women attempting to interact with the community, the problem seems to be universal. So you're saying women are ok with taking advantage of the fact that they are women, but not ok when people criticize them for doing so? If there's an advantage to be had by simply BEING a woman, it's a rather clear indication that sexism exists as a factor, that's all. That's hilarious, because I don't see very many women complain about getting advantages in the field of e-sports at all, only vocally complaining about some assholes that are sending in hate mail, flaming them on forums, etc. In fact, most female gamers that I know actually like the idea of 'all female' progamer teams, or female gamers being propped up by an organization despite the fact that they clearly are not skilled enough to compete against other players.
So lets get down to pay dirt on this one:
Eve was in the GSTL league and sat on the bench for a single broadcast. She was on the team and likely should not have been due to her skill level at the time. However, the team, Slayers, was felt that putting her on the bench would be fine and there wouldn't be any harm in it.
In response there were hundreds of hate fill messages, photos shops of her face put onto pornographic images and other forms of abuse. All for the act of sitting on a bench and doing as she was told by her team. Now mind you, this girl was very young at the time and was scouted by Jessica of team slayers.
Do you think the response to the simple act of sitting on a bench and being on a team was ok? And do you think the response would have been any different if she was not a girl, but another minority group in the SC2 scene?
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On August 01 2013 03:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:22 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 03:16 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 03:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:07 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:
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No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment. what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice? My idea? No one would like it. If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other. Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US. When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability. You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem. That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself. Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue. Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game. How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws... Offensiveness without wit is just verbal excrement. Look at from the other side, the person making the comments. They should think 'hm, is my contribution adding anything, will saying 'tits' enliven this stirring internet discourse?'. If no, don't fucking do it. People's mentality that their own shitty jokes and fucking asinine opinions HAVE to be expressed is the reason that Twitch chat, Youtube comments and other potentially interesting forums of discussion are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. Who cares if you don't agree with it? It's their fucking right to say it. I like discussions with people I don't agree with, quite often more so than those I do agree with. I just expect a bit of self-evaluation from other people. I don't mind insults I don't mind disagreements. I do mind people going around, posting bullshit about the Illuminati on videos about the jazz fusion stylings of Guthrie Govan. I do mind people spamming the latest memetic phrase that they have lifted from 9gag. Interesting discussion can only occur in an environment free of such ridiculous background noise. If you want to have something to say, actually think of something to say instead of abusing people and going 'it's a free country hurhur'
But, it is a free country, so I am failing to see your point.
Who cares what you mind or don't mind? How's it affect anyone else? If someone wants to go around with a 9gag memetic phrase, who the hell are you to stop them?
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On August 01 2013 03:16 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:07 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 03:03 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 03:01 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:
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Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning. c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me. are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs? No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment. what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice? My idea? No one would like it. If you really want to get rid of, or curb most dickish behavior online it is pretty simple. Remove complete anonymity on the internet. You are tied to your real name, a picture of yourself, and the location where you live. It's pretty simple. Of course, people will cry foul about that. That being said, studies have shown when you do something that drastic, all of a sudden people aren't such jackasses to each other. Its an old idea, Puritans brought that with them when they first came to the US. When people do not get punished, their bigotry reveals itself. Its only when they get flack from authority/peers that they eventually stop. Culpability. You know the worse way to provide culpability? Ignoring the problem. That's funny because you want to go band aid every issue rather than actually fixing the main issue itself. Telling people to stop being derogatory is not band-aiding an issue. Thinking that social problems can be easily fix with just 1-2 policy changes is stupid. Each problem comes with its own intricacies. You fix them on a case by case basis and the complexities change over time requiring new tactics to resolve each one. It is a continual process that doesn't simply "end" like some final boss in a video game. How is it even an issue? Last time I checked "nice tits" or "back to the kitchen" doesn't break any laws...
Its not going to get you any dates with a girl worth dating either. It might get you slapped, but that is the risk you take if you say this stuff in public. Oh wait, we aren't talking about saying things in public.
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United States33542 Posts
alright that's enough entertainment for today
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EPT
