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On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
pick your battles man.
if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news.
why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S ^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet. They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic. Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
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This is the third time you have done this:
"An act, criminal or tortious, that threatens physical harm to a person, whether or not actual harm is done"
Have you considered reading things before you post them in threads or do you just like looking like an idiot? Words can have more than one meaning, they are flexible like that.
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ZombieGrub is a legit up and coming female caster. I have worked with her in the past she is very professional and takes great pride in her broadcasting work. Definitely recommend her to any tournaments that are seeking a balanced casting duo. Tons of potential still untapped with her.
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On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet. They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic. Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem?
Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue.
The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
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On August 01 2013 02:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem? Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue. The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
|
On August 01 2013 02:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem? Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue. The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
But we don't agree on that point and that isn't likely to change. So why do you keep trying to make sure that people won't talk about the sexism that they believe is a problem in the sections community?
|
On August 01 2013 02:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem? Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue. The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again.
And as each problem crops up we deal with it as well. Hate speech is not solved by ignoring it.
The existence of hate speech is not a reason to support it.
|
On August 01 2013 02:43 Sevre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:38 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem? Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue. The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again. Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
man im even cool with people being dicks online. its just annoying that they are dicks to entire groups of people that have suffered oppression.
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On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:32 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
pick your battles man.
if you have never seen any upset about the use of the word "faggot" i don't know what you do for news.
why is the battle you are picking to fight against those that want sexual abuse of women to stop :S ^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet. They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic. Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it.
I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it.
Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community.
And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter.
And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes.
There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
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Northern Ireland23821 Posts
On August 01 2013 02:43 Sevre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:38 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point.
I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. So what is your point again? You want people to stop talking about sexism because you think everyone else is being mean too? Why even discuss the matter if you don't think its a problem? Point is that you talking about it does nothing, because you're not addressing the underlying issue. The problem is not people being 'sexist.' The problem is people are dicks online. Period. If you somehow managed to stop the verbal abuse against women online, the same people would just shift to another demographic to target and you have the same problem all over again. Then we'll deal with that problem too. I seriously don't get why it's so unbelievable that we think people shouldn't be dicks online and want to deal with that problem.
All societal adjustments start from small communities banding together, and influencing greater society as a whole, exactly! Hello btw fellow Emerald Isle dweller! It's the same as people who reframe race arguments to downplay them 'oh well black people can say nigger and we can't' when it's largely an irrelevance to the issue.
I'm not a 'white knight' for wanting to have a game in which I'd have an expectation that my partner could go and play online without getting told to get her tits out all the time once it becomes apparent she is a woman.
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Northern Ireland23821 Posts
The only advantage women have in E-sports is a higher capacity to multitask anyway.
I wish some of the articulate female voices who told us of their own experiences would come back into the discussion, especially ZombieGrub who actually IS a caster and give us more of their personal anecdotal accounts.
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So now people want female casters?
Kellymilkies was almost murdered out of starcraft lol
Scarlett would be a good caster.. i don't know any other girl that could pull that off
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On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:47 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ? What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia' Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning.
c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ?
When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean.
My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango.
My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)
Sticks and stones will break my bones
But words will never harm me.
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On August 01 2013 02:48 TWIX_Heaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:33 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
^^^ This is exactly why I hate people like you. You have the biggest double standards ever. It's not about 'picking battles' it's about people complaining about a non-existent problem. The problem isn't 'everyone is a jackass to women' the problem is everyone is a jackass to everyone else on the internet. They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic. Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!'
Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes.
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it. Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community. And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter. And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes. There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having.
1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women.
2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve.
3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males.
4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
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On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 01:47 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ? What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia' Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning. c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me.
are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
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On August 01 2013 02:52 shell wrote:
So now people want female casters?
Kellymilkies was almost murdered out of starcraft lol
Scarlett would be a good caster.. i don't know any other girl that could pull that off
I would be a terrible caster right now :/ Way too nervous
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On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 01:47 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ? What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia' Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning. c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me. are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs?
No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
No one here said dickish behavior is fine or anything like that; what we're saying is that it is unrealistic to believe that we can curb it to the point where everyone is nice to each other or some other fantasy bullshit. Unless you remove the anonymity of the internet, you cannot possibly expect everyone to play nice.
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On August 01 2013 03:00 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:57 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 02:52 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:52 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 01:47 shmget wrote:On August 01 2013 01:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
When you verbally attack a gay person, its homophobia.
and if you did not know that that someone is gay does that still count as homophobia ? if you learn after the fact, does that change retro-actively your state of mind at the time and make you an homophobe ? What I hope you meant is 'verbally attacking someone _for being gay_ is homophobia' Yes yes it is. For example, calling someone a "faggot" (even if it is a straight person) a) assumes that they are gay, b) says that this is something to be ashamed of and signifies that you think less of them as a human being as a result. You cannot use homophobic language without being a homophobe, it doesn't matter if you lack a particular intention to be homophobic, I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend. It's like saying I can insult Jews when they're not around me and not be anti-semitic as a result, it's absurd reasoning. c) assumes that the person being called 'gay' would be offented, hence _he_ would be a homophobe for taking such offence ? When I was very little in pre-scholl or a little later, some other children started to make pun with my first-name (which was/is a very common one where I was)... It was getting me mad a lot... then in a glimpse of wisdom, my parent taught me that me reacting so much to it was the reason of its effectiveness... I started to ignore the attemtped offense and, guess what... the power of the pun dissipated and soon enough something else was attempted to be occasionally mean... Note that _nothing_ I could have done, not even successfully banned the offensive name-calling, would have eliminated the underlying motivation to be mean. My point is that words do not have intrinsic power... and it takes 2 to tango. My alternate point is well summarized in this old nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones_(nursery_rhyme)Sticks and stones will break my bones But words will never harm me. are you asking the victim to stop being offended by people using slurs? No, he's saying that even if you are offended, the problem will only persist if you keep reacting to it. As long as the troll gets attention from you, he's going to keep trolling you relentlessly because he knows he's getting a reaction out of you. That's how he gets his entertainment.
what direction would you recommend for eliminating unjust negative prejudice?
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On August 01 2013 02:54 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:48 TWIX_Heaven wrote:On August 01 2013 02:19 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 02:16 Sevre wrote:On August 01 2013 02:09 Vorenius wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:40 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
They are two separate problems that should be fixed... The existence of one should not diminish the existence of the other. Both groups being attacked simply means that the community is *both* sexists and misogynistic.
Are we really supposed to stop trying to make things better for one social group because another social group also has problems? There is no systematic abuse of females in competitive gaming. At all. Until you can prove there is, you don't have to preach 'oh we need to stop this abuse against females!' Like I said, the problem isn't 'female only.' The problem is lots of people on the internet are assholes. If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community. If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community. The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe. So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. I think were I would disagree is that people aren't necessarily sexist or homophobic, they are simply dicks in general. If someone on the internet is a different race, they use a racial slur. If it's a different gender they use a sexist one. If it's a different sexual orientation they'll say something homophobic. Failing all that they'll wish you some cancer. They are saying it to hurt someone, not because they believe women are inferior. I'm not defending those kinds of people, or saying it's okay, but if you want to change it, you have to attack the right causes. you can't just stop people from being dicks to women, you have to stop them from being dicks. I agree that we have to stop people from being dicks but you have to understand that using sexist/homophobic/racist language is what qualifies you as being sexist/homophobic/racist, not a particular malicious intent behind it. What we're saying in this thread is that women suffer quite a bit in particular and I don't think that's in dispute, many women are attacked just for being women as opposed to annoying someone in particular i.e. "tits or gtfo". We've already covered this, there is a novelty still of women playing mostly 'male' games. As such, they get increased attention, which thus also causes them to become the main targets of most jackasses on the internet. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. That being said, I have seen very few women complain about the positives of the 'increased attention novelty factor.' On August 01 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 02:04 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. Says the man who calls everyone in this thread a White Knight. Its not like people here are making some ground breaking argument. Sexism is still a problem in the world and its likely a problem in gaming. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis. I mean, you don't have to read this thread, so why do so? If you don't think its an issue and you aren't sexist, what is the problem with the discussion? Actually I've only called you and Thieving Magpie white knights because you are exactly that. You're trying to make it like there's a distinct problem against females in the community when there's not. There's no such thing. There's no systematic discrimination, nor is there a vast amount of abuse towards them. They may get targeted more often simply because they stand out more, but that's not unusual in any circumstance. If you stick out, you're going to get increased attention. You both agreed that the issue isn't just related to females, and that it is an internet behavior issue. People are assholes on the internet, and that's all there is to it. Good luck attempting to fix it without invading someone's privacy, because the only way you can fix it is to basically remove their anonymity and put their real name and actual picture attached to their online alias. On August 01 2013 02:04 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:46 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. what no he has been reiterating that there are lots of problems for like 2 pages now are you serious? Main point is that you're bitching about people being jackasses rather than about a specific problem about 'women being systematically discriminated against.' That's not a female only issue, it's a lots of people are an assholes on the internet issue. On August 01 2013 01:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On August 01 2013 01:43 superstartran wrote:On August 01 2013 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
If the community attacks women, then there is a problem in the community.
If the community attacks gays, then there is a problem in the community.
The problems do not disappear just because many social groups are being attacked, it just means the community is more fucked up than you believe.
So you're agreeing that it's not just females being attacked, and that they aren't the only ones who get 'verbally attacked' on the internet? Because now you're just proving my point. I'm agreeing that women get attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I'm also agreeing that homosexuals are attacked, and that needs to be fixed. I think the community is very misogynistic, and that its a problem. I also think a large section of the community is also homophobic. And I believe people like you wish to suppress critiques on the community because you feel threatened that you are being accused of misogyny, homophobia, and racism. And I believe that if you are okay with the community making those types of attacks that you are supportive of those deeds. Whoa now, so when you get caught with your pants down in your argument, all of a sudden I'm getting personally attacked. Good job. It's not the same thing. While I agree that using epithets does not necessarily reflect a discriminatory intent, it is that girls attract more attention online, positively and negatively if their handles are 'feminine' Yeah, I get called a faggot on ladder, or BMed after a game. I don't get messages 'oh you're a girl tits or gtfo' Plenty of women posting here and elsewhere say they get a real disproportionate amount of attention while playing games if it's known they're a chick. Regardless of treatment being good or bad, it's tempered by sexism So if I show up to a Justin Beiber concert and a ton of teenage girls call me a faggot, I can claim discrimination now? Or better yet, if all the girls think I'm cool because I like Justin Beiber because I'm a guy, I can still claim discrimination/sexism, because they are treating me differently because I'm a guy? Lmao. We called you sexists and misogynistic, because that is what you are. You don't want people to discuss the issue and actively want the discussion stopped because you don't believe its a problem. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people not to talk about it. Furthermore, if we apply your argument to all other forms of abuse online, you could claim racism isn't a problem either. But I don't think you would get very far with that argument, because racism is always a problem and should always be discussed. 'Waagh he blew up my argument now I must call him a sexist and a misogynistic because that's all I can say.' Like I said, the issue is people are dicks. Not that there's a distinct discrimination against women online. You can accuse me of being a sexist/misogynistic all you want. Fact of the matter is, people don't specifically target women. They only target them because they simply standout in a community of mostly men; other people get equal levels of abuse, it's just they aren't as vocal about it. I just had to chime in and say, that you are completely wrong in this matter, and the fact that you can't seem to/want to accept that sexism is a serious issue that affects this community are whole lot is a pretty obvious testament to the problem and it's existence. People being dicks on the internet in general is true, but you have to understand that using sexist slur, jokes and harmful expressions, is sexism, no matter the intent, place or who says it. Just in this thread alone, we have had people like you, saying it's not a problem and it doesn't exist, we have had people pull the "in the kitchen" jokes, we have seen people complaining about some "magic" advantage female gamers/people somehow have, because they are women (which is exactly what sexism is), we have seen people saying it's a normal part of the internet and our community. And you tell me that any girl should, and would feel welcome here? "the game is mostly of interest to men" - well no, it's a sexist stereo-type that it is so. Girls and women have every possibility to like it just as much as you, but unfortunately some people make the community look like a misogynist shit hole and they stay away (for good reason). Those who endure it and stay regardless, have to be faced with people who de-emphasize the problem, and telling people/women the problem doesn't even matter. And instead of discussing the issue itself, or the other issues you mention (dicks on the internet in general) you do the exact opposite, trying to legitimize your own views on hate-jokes. There is nothing to win from what you are trying to do. And people will not stop discussing it just cause you want them to. And some of us will not stop fighting discrimination in this community, after all the whole purpose for us is to educate and hopefully change the views of people to create a better community for everyone - so that they might feel more inclined to join in on all this wonderful fun we are having. 1) I already proved that SC2's competitive nature is a turn off to girls; whether this is a society issue or not is up for debate. Read the studies I linked. Competitive atmosphere = turnoff for women. 2) It's a proven fact that females have an advantage when it comes to obtaining jobs in SC2. Flo, Aphrodite, and various other female players are given chances of a lifetime that far higher quality male players simply do not get (some male GM players will never get the chances that these women do). Not to mention the 'all girl teams' in games like CS/DotA 2 where clearly inferior players are given chances that they do not deserve. 3) I never legitimized the 'hate speech.' All I said was that the 'hate speech' really isn't hate speech, and more of immature dickish behavior from 15-25ish year old males. 4) Again, you keep thinking that there's a distinct discrimination issue against women in SC2 and E-Sports in general, and yet none of you have proven it. And no, bringing up a few posts doesn't prove anything, because I can easily turn it around and find plenty of evidence around the internet that 'supports women in E-Sports.'
Are you talking about the Articles that Planxis and I pointed out proved your conclusion wrong? All 4 of them revealed that the ability for women to perform tasks were the same as mens, and their performance was the same when competing against each other. The only time there was a difference was that men improved when they were pitted against women.
Planxis then pasted the conclusions of one or two of the articles pointing out that they believed that it was a social problem that women didn't try harder in competition.
You literally posted 4 articles that proved your point wrong.
And no, Aphrodite having a job does not erase misogyny for the same reason that Barack Obama becoming president has not erased racism.
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On August 01 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:
Sexism is still a problem in the world
Yes it is. and many major religion still have it as a central tenet... And in many place in the world that sexism is exhibited in physical violence, civil right denial, asymmetrical law that make gender distinction etc...
and its likely a problem in gaming.
wait.. 'likely' a problem ? so all that high-horsing for something that _may_ be a problem ?
Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. There are other problems too, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
How about dealing with the 'problem' that are more than just 'likely' first ?
How about dealing with them in a way to is not an-eye-for-an-eye, iow not like the way these problem are typically address in the US: oh there is 'discrimination', it's bad, let organize a 'discrimination' of our own so that surely will balance things out and everything will be swell.
I know that homeopathy is popular in some circles... but I doubt that is a good way to address societal problems.
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