EPTOn March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote:
the winners write the histroy never forget that.
the winners write the histroy never forget that.
There are no winners in war. lol.
Holocaust worse than previously thought - Page 6
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SSBBW
2 Posts
There are no winners in war. lol. | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
On March 03 2013 22:18 Xayoz wrote: This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff. History is never irrelevant. People are researching the Roman Empire, or the Spartans, and that happened 2500 years ago. And why wouldn't they? And you want to forget about horrible events that happened not even a single human lifetime ago? | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On March 03 2013 22:18 Xayoz wrote: This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff. Yeah seriously. The amount of information about WW2 and especially the holocaust always creates the image that nothing bad expect this ever happened in history. Sometimes I feel america just uses it to lead our attention away from todays conflicts. | ||
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Cubu
1171 Posts
On March 03 2013 21:47 ACrow wrote: When you are carefully reading the article, it seems the only new thing is that for the first time someone counted all the places where people were imprisoned, killed or forced to work and added all the numbers up. Those are not all concentration camps and it was known beforehand that there would be small sites all over the place, just not the number and exact locations. So there is of course a scientific value to have this catalogued and documented but I don't see that much actual news here. Also, in a sensationalist manner, they treat a concentration camp the same as a small POW site just to get a high number. Going further, they add the death toll with the number of prisoners to reach the 15 to 20mil again to reach a nice headline (no word in the article if the actual death toll has changed in their estimate, which is doubtful, since registers are a more acurate way to measure this I'd think). In conclusion: yes, the Holocaust was a shocking cruelty, but this article doesn't bring all too much news (and is badly written I might add). You yourself argued that numbers of death is the sole metric for worse...? It is incredibly bad what happened, inhumane, evil. What is the point in trying to "rank" genocides when we can all agree that they are an abomination? i didn't mean numbers were the only way to look at which is worse. High casualty along with inhumane treatment that you would only expect in a horror film is more worse than simply high casualty. It's not like the holocaust is widely recognised as the worst in history randomly. There is a good reason for it. | ||
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Xpace
United States2209 Posts
On March 03 2013 22:22 blackone wrote: History is never irrelevant. People are researching the Roman Empire, or the Spartans, and that happened 2500 years ago. And why wouldn't they? And you want to forget about horrible events that happened not even a single human lifetime ago? Sure, we look up relevant history. We reference them, we research them, we may even let those events affect our way of life, our decisions, our thinking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping transparency, especially on past human events that should never be repeated in the future. We are educated, our children are educated, and their children will be educated about the atomic bombs, about the Holocaust, about the Crusades, and so on. BUT - we should stop hammering the topic. | ||
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EtherealBlade
660 Posts
And the actual subject would be worth researching for sure, but with these sensationalist discoveries, hardly will we ever know more. | ||
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StickyFlower
Sweden68 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
jaeh it was the worst part in the last century it was bad and all nazis are idiots but come on ... thats aint objective ... both sides killed alot, nazis was unhumans and killed alot civilians in camps we all know no reason to make every year a new study after 70 years not from the humanity point, but for sure from the point of strategic, allied won and so they did nothing bad like stalin killed in his time more people then hitler never got that image because he "won" overall not our lightest century | ||
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Eisregen
Germany967 Posts
On March 03 2013 22:15 KaiserJohan wrote: Goddamned I'm so tired of that quote, and I bet it was simply attributed to stalin after his death. I think it has its origin in france. Dont know if stalin ever used that quote anyway | ||
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Meiya
Australia1169 Posts
On March 03 2013 21:31 Cubu wrote: Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths. He most certainly was, and very directly. As for experiments, he didn't use people for medical experiments in the same way units of the Japanese and German militaries did in WWII, sure. But he did use people in social and economic experiments that, as has been said, killed millions. Xpace above said quite rightly that if you look at the human tragedy that makes up these numbers, it doesn't seem like a statistic anymore. Fascism is not an issue anymore, but people got the point when the point was needed: for example, it is now regarded that natural selection applied to humans is a dangerous game and radical totalitarian politics are something to avoid lest they bring more human tragedy. That said, the only reason we "know" these things is because we remember what they led to. Nationalism and religious fundamentalism need to die similar deaths to fascism, and our world will be a much safer place. As for the article, it appears to mix up the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing. The forced removal and transportation of large populations is ethnic cleansing, and ethnic-focused genocide is also ethnic cleansing. However, forced removal and transportation is not genocide, and as is common from biased sources such as the US Holocaust Memorial, statistics and facts are warped by this bias. The genocide is no worse than we thought it was, it is exactly as bad as we already knew it was and there is no more action to be taken against its perpetrators that has not already been taken. The outrage of Western democracies went its course half a century ago. As for those saying "holocaust deniers" are on the rise, I'd love to see something supporting that. Keep in mind claiming that the numbers of holocaust victims was lower than currently believed is not really holocaust denial, it's just revisionist history. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff. Maybe we need to moan about it long enough to remember to not do that kind of shit again. Seeing how racist/extremist political parties are starting to raise in europe again because of economical crisis and people being generally stupid, I think too much reminding is better than too little. I'm reading a trilogy of whodunits (? that's what google translate told me, but it sounds strange :D a detective story would be more simple I guess)/thrillers taking place in Berlin and Germany before, during and after WWII. The main character is an ex police officer that had to leave the police because of what the nazis were asking them to do, then became a private detective. The point of vue of a guy that was against the nazi policy is quite interesting, and I really liked the novels so far. I guess if you're interested in the WWII period and like detective stories you should read them. It's historically exact as far as I know, and the adventures of the character bring him to a lot of different places (Deaths camps, war front, killing squads, etc) that are described in all their horror. The character is also very cynic and generally funny. The first tome is called "Berlin Noir", by Philip Kerr. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
The reason I watched those videos in the first place was because I had heard all the awful things about them (holocaust deniers), like in this thread, and wanted to know what their deal was. They might be conspiritards, but theyre pretty quick to denounce nazism and racism. Theres not many IDEAS out there that can LITERALLY get you in TROUBLE. In some countrys you can go to jail for expressing holocaust denial. Thats a pretty interesting cultural phenomenon. What other idea could land you in prison? | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
Under misattributed. He didn't say that line. | ||
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EtherealBlade
660 Posts
On March 03 2013 22:45 Nimix wrote: I'm reading a trilogy of whodunits (? that's what google translate told me, but it sounds strange :D a detective story would be more simple I guess)/thrillers taking place in Berlin and Germany before, during and after WWII. The main character is an ex police officer that had to leave the police because of what the nazis were asking them to do, then became a private detective. The point of vue of a guy that was against the nazi policy is quite interesting, and I really liked the novels so far. I guess if you're interested in the WWII period and like detective stories you should read them. It's historically exact as far as I know, and the adventures of the character bring him to a lot of different places (Deaths camps, war front, killing squads, etc) that are described in all their horror. The character is also very cynic and generally funny. The first tome is called "Berlin Noir", by Philip Kerr. Don't think one could just look at death camps, war fronts and killing squads and get away with it alive. What you're reading is most probably fiction. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
As for it being worse than we knew before, at some point the numbers lose their meaning. I feel, like some others in this thread, that it already had reached the "top level" of atrocities. | ||
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nepeta
1872 Posts
It was more than just a couple of nazis running wild, the army and paramilitary forces were in on it, railroads were in on it, industry, and very many ordinary citizens. The dutch police force were in many instances actively helping out, dutch citizens too. I don't know too much about other countries so I'll not mention them, but England and America didn't hand out as many visa as were necessary; from 1933 to 1939, the years before the war, there were many possibilities for jews and others to escape, if only they had gotten visa. Other countries didn't exactly welcome Germany's refugees either. After the war, people from the concentration camps were rounded up in camps for 'displaced persons', by the allies. They couldn't go back, their houses had been 'reposessed', large parts of their families had often been killed, how could they go back to cities and villages that had expulsed them, still hated them? So that is why the zionist movement, the movement advocating a jewish homeland in the then mandate state of Palestine, which had been gaining momentum since the late 19th century, was such a politically welcome solution. The culpability of the Western world deflected on the levantine arabs, creating a temporary solution, pushing the problem from Europe to the Middle East. Where it lay festering, and still is. And part of the 'holocaust denial' in Western Europe is attributable to the Israel situation; immigrant people and those with families originally from the arabic speaking regions side with the populist islamic media and do not look favourably upon history's concensus with regard to the shoa. Which would of course be less if we (Dutchies) weren't as racist as we are, and the economical position of certain minorities would be better. Look at this tangle of thorns... PS: Despite the number of Germans fed up with their history classes being filled for a large part with the second world war, I'd like to commend the German people for their unique level of introspection. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On March 03 2013 20:22 Simberto wrote: If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist. Poland has the highest number of neonazis in active political parties than any other nation, far more than Germany. Anyway, I don't really see how this is a surprise, it's not talking about new concentration or extermination camps, but forced labour ones which we knew existed anyway. I remember reading about the prisoners who made the V2 rockets and how 12,000 of them died over the course of the war just in their production. It's awful yes but it's not quite the same as the extermination camps, and I'm pretty sure we knew about them anyway, just not the exact numbers. | ||
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sjperera
Canada349 Posts
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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Sableyeah
Netherlands2119 Posts
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