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On March 03 2013 21:02 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
I'm not an expert on the field, but there were some news articles in 2010 that Germany finally managed to pay off everything from the first WW. It ties into interests as Germany couldn't really pay everything right off the bat. I don't know however, how it's going with the second WW.
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On March 03 2013 20:13 Disregard wrote:
If you compare the scale of death to Mao's Great Leap Forward, it pales in comparison. He staved his own people but instead of crematoriums, just gulags and all is forgiven as it was for the greater good of our country.
On March 03 2013 20:15 Kinon wrote:
Holocaust was horrible, but I don't know why everyone ignores Stalin's Great Purge. Stalin killed around 17million russians, while the Holocaust caused somewhere in the vecinity of 6 milion. Of course, the fact that Hitler targeted a specific group of people without any real reason is more frightening that the killing of russian in the name of political power.
My point is, if you want to mourn for those who died for nothing, mourn all of them.
I see all of these as the same. All those dictators had somewhat different visions, but they did what they did in attempt to stay in power and build up their empires. All of their countries were facing crises and enemies needed to be invented to rally the people. The nazis managed to play the race card. It worked great and they even managed to get "science" and religion to fool themselves into thinking they're in the right.
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On March 03 2013 21:18 r.Evo wrote:I'm not exactly sure what this study is trying to tell people. It's talking about sites where "just a dozen prisoners worked", goes on to saying that 30000/42500 of the camps it's talking about are "slave labor camps" and uses that information to claim that "the Holocaust was worse than we thought it is". This article says nothing about how it actually counts. As an example, Auschwitz had dozens of different compartments which this study apparently all counts as different instances (since they specifically mention Buna Monowitz as something different from Auschwitz). It does not differentiate between concentration and extermination camps, it doesn't tell us anything but huge, horrible numbers. The Holocaust is about a systematic genocide, not about a number of work camps. Unless they find evidence for a larger amount of people being killed this entire article has nothing to do with the Holocaust itself. Statements like "15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned" just seem insulting to victims. You just can't make such a statement while claiming to be historically accurate. The final statement is even worse because of what it implies: Show nested quote +“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.” Maybe I'm overinterpreting, but to me the entire point of that statement is to point out that "everyone had to know what's going on because it was everywhere" which tries to prove political points more than it tries to be historically accurate.
I guess that walking into a POW camp doesn't mean you know about the genocide. But it seems like they're implying that.
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Meh. I gain nothing from posting on this. Sorry for the blank post.
Holocaust was horrible, don't see why we have to bring up new evidence to try and persuade people.
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On March 03 2013 21:02 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 20:55 ppshchik wrote:On March 03 2013 20:32 Zaphid wrote:On March 03 2013 20:08 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2013 20:03 Cynry wrote:still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;( I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ? There are a lot of idiots in this world. As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat. Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide. Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past. I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
I'm not entirely sure about WW2, but I know that the last payment for WW1 was done in 2010.
Source: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2023140,00.html
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On March 03 2013 21:17 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:16 Cubu wrote:On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher? uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is. Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
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On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana.
How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population.
I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
this imo... how can they just find out about 14 million people all of a sudden? seems really weird to me. how did never anyone know about those 14 million people?
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On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana.
How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population.
I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
They weren't there at the same time. It's over a time of 10 years maybe. And also they weren't only Germans. They came from the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Austria, Poland and so on and so forth.
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On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana.
How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population.
I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified
Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp or gas chambers".
"Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view.
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On March 03 2013 21:36 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana.
How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population.
I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific. Show nested quote +The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp and gas chambers". "Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view.
Do you think they would be this stupid?
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On March 03 2013 21:31 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:17 bo1b wrote:On March 03 2013 21:16 Cubu wrote:On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher? uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is. Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst. Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
It's interesting how aliens see German history. The number of victims doesn't change anything. Even if the number was smaller than 100.000 (or any given number), the main 'idea' behind the holocaust and the way it was executed is one of the most disturbing things in the history of humans.
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More widespread in scope would be more fitting than "worse" probably, if these numbers are to be believed.
On March 03 2013 21:40 Gecko[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:31 Cubu wrote:On March 03 2013 21:17 bo1b wrote:On March 03 2013 21:16 Cubu wrote:On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher? uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is. Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst. Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths. It's interesting how aliens see German history. The number of victims doesn't change anything. Even if the number was smaller than 100.000 (or any given number), the main 'idea' behind the holocaust and the way it was executed is one of the most disturbing things in the history of humans.
I agree. I mean, yeah numbers mean a lot, but there was something about the way Nazi's distorted elements of modern society and thinking to bring upon such horrors. Scarier, and more resonating, than other examples of mass murder imo. The situation after WW1 that brought upon such thinking is also more apt to discussion as well.
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On March 03 2013 21:38 Sjokola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana.
How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population.
I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific. The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp and gas chambers". "Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view. Do you think they would be this stupid?
To be quite frank: Yes. Or rather "this clever".
A statement saying "5 million died and 10 million were imprisoned" is an acceptable statement, besides the point that the holocaust historians I talked to won't tell you such a number, they will just tell you "we don't exactly know".
A statement saying "15 million died or were imprisoned" isn't trying to be accurate, it's trying to show you the biggest number possible for whatever reason.
PS: Keep in mind that, assuming the above scenario, the 10 million who were imprisoned are completely irrelevant if you're trying to back up the claim that "The Holocaust was worse than we originally assumed".
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When you are carefully reading the article, it seems the only new thing is that for the first time someone counted all the places where people were imprisoned, killed or forced to work and added all the numbers up. Those are not all concentration camps and it was known beforehand that there would be small sites all over the place, just not the number and exact locations. So there is of course a scientific value to have this catalogued and documented but I don't see that much actual news here. Also, in a sensationalist manner, they treat a concentration camp the same as a small POW site just to get a high number. Going further, they add the death toll with the number of prisoners to reach the 15 to 20mil again to reach a nice headline (no word in the article if the actual death toll has changed in their estimate, which is doubtful, since registers are a more acurate way to measure this I'd think).
In conclusion: yes, the Holocaust was a shocking cruelty, but this article doesn't bring all too much news (and is badly written I might add).
On March 03 2013 21:31 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 21:17 bo1b wrote:On March 03 2013 21:16 Cubu wrote:On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher? uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is. Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst. Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
You yourself argued that numbers of death is the sole metric for worse...?
It is incredibly bad what happened, inhumane, evil. What is the point in trying to "rank" genocides when we can all agree that they are an abomination?
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Well if you try to refute any of this you'll be seen as an anti-Semite quite quickly by certain groups. The Dutch prime minister was called an anti-Semite when he thought banning Mein Kampf was no longer of any use and not very modern.
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I think one sentence suits it best.
The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
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On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote:
I think one sentence suits it best.
The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
This quote is only applicable when you touch the surface of both. It's very reflective of modern news media and their benign methods of forcing reactions from their viewers.
Walk through a concentration camp in Poland, see the towers of shoes or the tons of hair collected, and tell me if you'd still think this was applicable.
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On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote:
I think one sentence suits it best.
The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
Quoting Stalin ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic") in a holocaust thread seems a tad off-putting. It just goes on to show the wicked mentality of the big tyrants of the past.
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On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote:
I think one sentence suits it best.
The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
Goddamned I'm so tired of that quote, and I bet it was simply attributed to stalin after his death.
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This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho.
And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
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EPT
