|
On March 03 2013 20:13 honkeybeef wrote:
Heil Hitler!
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
User was banned for this post.
That escalated quickly..
It's interesting when you actually read some of the holocaust deniers reports though, for instance a prominent one (the guy imprisioned in Austria) was the same man who found that the Hitler diaries were frauds whereas everyone else thought them real, he was a leading historian on the Holocaust. I think it's as dangerous to simply throw these people away for questioning it in jail as it is to simply deny the event.
|
On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote:
The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi
Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust.
|
On March 03 2013 22:29 CoR wrote:making news every few years about how much more worse it was then it was used to be, and reduce the death of allied bombing in dresden vs civilians when war was pretty much over from 600.000 to 20.000 ... jaeh it was the worst part in the last century it was bad and all nazis are idiots but come on ... thats aint objective ... both sides killed alot, nazis was unhumans and killed alot civilians in camps we all know no reason to make every year a new study after 70 years Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 22:21 SSBBW wrote:On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote:
the winners write the histroy never forget that. There are no winners in war. lol. not from the humanity point, but for sure from the point of strategic, allied won and so they did nothing bad like stalin killed in his time more people then hitler never got that image because he "won" overall not our lightest century
Nice to see that you haven't changed a thing in the past years. Still contacts to Phoenix? Getting tired of the Dresden arguments coming from the NPD. Tssss.
|
On March 03 2013 23:23 jxx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote:
The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust.
Why should current political circumstances have ANY relevence in the discussion? We are talking about historical facts.
Just because disingenious people use something for political gain doesnt change its truth value.
If I say "2+2 = 4 because the Jews are evil". It doesnt mean 2 + 2 isnt 4.
|
I don't understand the chain of logic behind the argument about Jews running the media, thus the holocaust is a lie.
I don't doubt that every historian is at least a little biased and it's more than probable that some of the numbers are slightly inflated due to journalist bias, but even if the numbers aren't 100 per cent accurate, there's still a huge middle terrible middle ground between accurate numbers and an utter fabrication.
|
how ist this interesting at all? Isn't a single Warlord in Africa a way bigger problem today? Why should we care about what happend in the past so many years ago? Yes it was bad and all but do numbers really matter?
|
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote:
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
It doesn't change anything. Otherwise that would be like saying that the previously thought numbers weren't as evil as it can be, and that's not something I'd like to say when millions of people died.
|
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote:
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems.
On March 03 2013 23:42 idonthinksobro wrote:
how ist this interesting at all? Isn't a single Warlord in Africa a way bigger problem today? Why should we care about what happend in the past so many years ago? Yes it was bad and all but do numbers really matter?
Without memory, we are nothing but plants.
Besides, African warlords rose for various reasons; mostly historical, territorial reasons.
If more people knew about the past, our future would be brighter.
|
While everything that is currently 'believed' to be true might indeed be true, it is always funny how people
- don't know that genocides are at least as old as the romans (no clue while people TODAY still think it stood out in any way)
- don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this. By professor always said that these numbers are usually pulled out of thin air for politcal gain. I find the instrumentalisation of this matter extremely insulting to the victims of the regiem.
Another example is the so called Führerbefehl on this matter. While it is extremely likely that it was, nobody ever found proof that the Holocaust was ordered by Hitler. But well, we can just say that it's a fact, who cares about truth or science?
|
On March 03 2013 23:48 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote:
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was. I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems.
The people that pointed to inaccuracies were usually anti-semites or Lol-o-caust people though. I have yet t osee legitimate historians question those numbers; though I'm biased since my grandfather worked on the cia mission to uncover the numbers. The Nazis meticulously took down every single person they killed, the time, the age, gender, name (number depending on what camp), and their religion. I feel like this will definitely increase the number killed from before. According to my grandad who worked on a large campaign to find out the number killed, the Nazis hid large numbers of their sheets in castles across Germany in the waning months of the war. The missions from the CIA recovered what they believed to have been all of them, but I guess now we know that it wasn't.
|
On March 03 2013 23:49 sephiria wrote:
- don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this.
Well, this very topic deals with said proof... but on the other hand, isn't it ironic to speak of the incorrectness of numbers, only to pull out your own, out of thin air too...?
By the way, I haven't seen anyone speak of genocides as a new phenomenon.
|
On March 03 2013 23:32 Equity213 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 23:23 jxx wrote:On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote:
The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust. Why should current political circumstances have ANY relevence in the discussion? We are talking about historical facts. Just because disingenious people use something for political gain doesnt change its truth value. If I say "2+2 = 4 because the Jews are evil". It doesnt mean 2 + 2 isnt 4.
Because the situation is complex and really depends on how you approach the matter. Somebody wrote "history is written by victors" and that's true in some regards, even though it's highly dangerous and easy to misunderstand.
Furthermore, back in 1945 when the regime fell apart and the trials started, many Nazis argued that they did never violate any law. And that is, when it comes down to it, true from a matter-of-fact standpoint. There were no laws that prohibited genocide, nor were Jews ordinary people in the Nazi regime, but considered to be inferior. In their opinion, which is also true from a theoretical standpoint, the victors judged about the defeated regime based on no laws at all. It's quite obvious to see the allies had every right to do it and quite interesting from an academic stand point to justify why there is a law for all nations that 'must' be true. Hence numbers, reports and other material was used to justify the trials and to lay a foundation for the future. And that were facts, no boosted numbers, enough to show the world and especially the German population not affiliated with the SS what really happened.
Now, even 50 years later, people still use a lot of numbers from statistics to back up their claims to related and unrelated matters. The aforementioned NPD wants to have stricter laws on migration for example, but has a hard time to get through, because they're (in my opinion) big shitheads and quite racist. Hence, re-write and re-interprete, so you come across slightly smarter than you are and less offensive than you are. See CoR's attempt to argue: the allies bombed, killed hundreds and thousands, therefore the regime wasn't as bad as it was, because the others did similar things. This is a very popular attempt by German right wing organizations and parties to re-write their take on history. That the bombings and the holocaust are two different things doesn't matter, you use it as instrument. If your number is too small though, people will ignore it, hence boost the number or at least try to make the opposing number smaller.
Even if you do not want to back up your politics, the German (and to some extent) and the international press has the tendency to bring up war atrocities, because they sell and enable you to print stuff when you else haven't anything impressive. The German Spiegel for example writes something "brand new" on Hitler every other month, especially during summer, when the real stories are rare. The OP is a perfect example of such a story. That there were more KZs is nothing really new, you get taught that in German high schools at least two or three times. A common misunderstanding, a KZ is not just Auschwitz, there were dozens of 'rather harmless' cases in the beginning. Mere prisons with bad enviroments for the inmates, sure, but no death camps. Side effects of a strict regime and one of the signs of what was yet to come. Now add sensational words and you got an article for your next volume.
And here is the thing I don't get. You know all that stuff. You don't need to read it three or four times, at least not if you're German. You know it was a horrible genocide, the number of the camps doesn't matter. It just a perverted thing that's used to change your opinion on an utterly unrelated topic and/or to sell a product.
To what happened the re-calculated or re-defined numbers don't mean shit. Everyone already has a very good idea of what happened and articles like these don't really matter anymore. It won't prevent right wing people (see CoR and Dresden again) to make their kind of arguments, it also won't add more information to how the ordinary people think about history.
|
I don't really understand how the Holocaust can be 'worse' than previously thought. That's not really possible.
|
On March 03 2013 21:15 fartosis77 wrote:
We're dressing up as Indians nowadays during carnaval, so give it time and we'll be able to walk around in a gestapo uniform wearing a swastika on our upper arms while drinking beer till we drop~ ;; ~
Yeah, but that's Aalst, and the people living there have always been kind of.. peculiar to say the least.
|
Armenian genocide, great purge of stalin and as someone previously mentionned mao. the holocaust isnt the most 'evil' thing humans ever done
|
On March 03 2013 23:54 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 23:49 sephiria wrote:
- don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this. Well, this very topic deals with said proof... but on the other hand, isn't it ironic to speak of the incorrectness of numbers, only to pull out your own, out of thin air too...? By the way, I haven't seen anyone speak of genocides as a new phenomenon.
That was an educated guess based on the actual evidence ('logs' of concentration camps, the deaths that you actually CAN proof. Though to be fair I just quoted my professor on this one) I don't sell this as proof.
Also the existence of more camps does not imply more deaths, if so there also was a holocaust in the USA and Canada (those had concentration camps too!)
If you read this topic you noticed that a lot of people are telling us 'how evil' this is. It's not evil, it sadly is human nature, and will be for the foreseeable future.
|
On March 03 2013 23:52 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 23:48 Kukaracha wrote:On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote:
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was. I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems. The people that pointed to inaccuracies were usually anti-semites or Lol-o-caust people though. I have yet t osee legitimate historians question those numbers; though I'm biased since my grandfather worked on the cia mission to uncover the numbers. The Nazis meticulously took down every single person they killed, the time, the age, gender, name (number depending on what camp), and their religion. I feel like this will definitely increase the number killed from before. According to my grandad who worked on a large campaign to find out the number killed, the Nazis hid large numbers of their sheets in castles across Germany in the waning months of the war. The missions from the CIA recovered what they believed to have been all of them, but I guess now we know that it wasn't.
What? I can't quote any historians off the top of my head, but researchers in general have worked on these numbers, as in verifying their accuracy without previous expectations, simply because they hold a strong political power and are likely to be manipulated by opposing sides.
Those are rather macabre calculations (though someone has got to do it), but you can only put so many people on a train, and park so many people in a camp, etc... however, if you find out that there actually was more traffic then previously thought, it corroborates those who defend the higher estimation.
Historical research done by the CIA should be taken with a grain of salt, anyway. Nothing they do is done for humanitarian purposes. It's a "realpolitikal" institution, not a university.
|
This is one of the most biased articles I've read in quite a while when it comes to wording and intepretation.
"A statement saying "15 million died or were imprisoned" isn't trying to be accurate, it's trying to show you the biggest number possible for whatever reason."
Yep. If you want to know that these people have an agenda, look no further than that sentence. That is flat out intellectually dishonest wording written for effect, not for conveying factual accuracy.
In my opinion, a more plausible interpretation of these recent findings is that the theory of a well-thought out and systematic genocide of the jews by the Nazis is actually weakened. It greatly reduces the ratio of death-camps to work-camps/ghettos that we know of in existence.
At the least an accurate representation of these findings would convey these facts clearly instead of trying to sensationalize the numbers and conflating them with Auschwitz.
|
On March 03 2013 23:59 sephiria wrote:
That was an educated guess based on the actual evidence ('logs' of concentration camps, the deaths that you actually CAN proof. Though to be fair I just quoted my professor on this one) I don't sell this as proof.
Also the existence of more camps does not imply more deaths, if so there also was a holocaust in the USA and Canada (those had concentration camps too!)
If you read this topic you noticed that a lot of people are telling us 'how evil' this is. It's not evil, it sadly is human nature, and will be for the foreseeable future.
1) If you only count deaths that have been definitely proven, most dictatorships in the world haven't killed many people. Most have "disappeared" (as always). The will to take account only of the proven deaths shows a negative bias. What about lost archives? Unrecorded Einsatzgruppen activity? Administrative errors? Etc, etc.
2) Existence of more camps does not directly corroborate the number of deaths, but it informs us of the amplor of the operation, which is one of the main points of controversy regarding the historical conclusions at hand.
3) I agree that it is hardly "evil". As Hannah Arendt said, Eichmann was an ordinary man put in an extraordinary situation, and his vile deeds were only the reflection of his mediocre heart. "Evil" is an ordinary, trivial thing. Think about your neighbour: is he a terrible person? Then imagine what he could do with the strenght of a million men.
|
look, the holocaust was absolutely terrible, but it becomes increasingly more exploited as time goes on and it's kind of irritating because if you dispute that in favor of just wanting to hear the actual facts about it, or if you question any atrocities by the scale of them, you're a inhumane monster for doing so today. really wish it can be a matter of documented history and fact instead of a pull card
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
