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Holocaust worse than previously thought

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electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
March 03 2013 10:48 GMT
#1
According to a recent report by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the full horror of the Holocaust is even much more shocking than was believed. The research, so far on its 13th year, revealed there were around 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps across Europe. That marks quite the increase from the 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos that researchers expected to find when they began their work 13 years ago. The figure doesn’t just include death camps but, among others, also some 30,000 forced labor camps and 500 brothels filled with sex slaves.

“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” said Hartmut Berghoff, director of the German Historical Institute in Washington, D.C. Researchers now estimate that as many as 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites they have identified in an encyclopedia that is expected to have seven volumes by 2025.


Link to full report at NYTimes : http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?hp#h[]
+ Show Spoiler +
THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.

What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.

The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.

The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.

Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise, the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.

The maps the researchers have created to identify the camps and ghettos turn wide sections of wartime Europe into black clusters of death, torture and slavery — centered in Germany and Poland, but reaching in all directions.

The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)

The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.

The brutal experience of Henry Greenbaum, an 84-year-old Holocaust survivor who lives outside Washington, typifies the wide range of Nazi sites.

When Mr. Greenbaum, a volunteer at the Holocaust museum, tells visitors today about his wartime odyssey, listeners inevitably focus on his confinement of months at Auschwitz, the most notorious of all the camps.

But the images of the other camps where the Nazis imprisoned him are ingrained in his memory as deeply as the concentration camp number — A188991 — tattooed on his left forearm.

In an interview, he ticked off the locations in rapid fire, the details still vivid.

First came the Starachowice ghetto in his hometown in Poland, where the Germans herded his family and other local Jews in 1940, when he was just 12.

Next came a slave labor camp with six-foot-high fences outside the town, where he and a sister were moved while the rest of the family was sent to die at Treblinka. After his regular work shift at a factory, the Germans would force him and other prisoners to dig trenches that were used for dumping the bodies of victims. He was sent to Auschwitz, then removed to work at a chemical manufacturing plant in Poland known as Buna Monowitz, where he and some 50 other prisoners who had been held at the main camp at Auschwitz were taken to manufacture rubber and synthetic oil. And last was another slave labor camp at Flossenbürg, near the Czech border, where food was so scarce that the weight on his 5-foot-8-inch frame fell away to less than 100 pounds.

By the age of 17, Mr. Greenbaum had been enslaved in five camps in five years, and was on his way to a sixth, when American soldiers freed him in 1945. “Nobody even knows about these places,” Mr. Greenbaum said. “Everything should be documented. That’s very important. We try to tell the youngsters so that they know, and they’ll remember.”


The research could have legal implications as well by helping a small number of survivors document their continuing claims over unpaid insurance policies, looted property, seized land and other financial matters.

“HOW many claims have been rejected because the victims were in a camp that we didn’t even know about?” asked Sam Dubbin, a Florida lawyer who represents a group of survivors who are seeking to bring claims against European insurance companies.

Dr. Megargee, the lead researcher, said the project was changing the understanding among Holocaust scholars of how the camps and ghettos evolved.

As early as 1933, at the start of Hitler’s reign, the Third Reich established about 110 camps specifically designed to imprison some 10,000 political opponents and others, the researchers found. As Germany invaded and began occupying European neighbors, the use of camps and ghettos was expanded to confine and sometimes kill not only Jews but also homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and many other ethnic groups in Eastern Europe. The camps and ghettos varied enormously in their mission, organization and size, depending on the Nazis’ needs, the researchers have found.

The biggest site identified is the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, which held about 500,000 people at its height. But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her.

When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.

The numbers astound: 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettos; 980 concentration camps; 1,000 prisoner-of-war camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm, performing forced abortions, “Germanizing” prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers.

In Berlin alone, researchers have documented some 3,000 camps and so-called Jew houses, while Hamburg held 1,300 sites.

Dr. Dean, a co-researcher, said the findings left no doubt in his mind that many German citizens, despite the frequent claims of ignorance after the war, must have known about the widespread existence of the Nazi camps at the time.

“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”


It's a good thing that there are historians and scholars who are working tirelessly in search for truth about history. I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.
Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-03 15:06:20
March 03 2013 10:51 GMT
#2
Horrible horrible, to be reminded of the horror of those times always shakes me

In retrospect you can only be thankful that this was stopped, Hitler did horrors in 4 years that took mao and Stalin their whole reign.

Not to even count if Hitler had won he wanted to wipe out the entire russian population in time
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noeljones
Profile Joined May 2012
Australia119 Posts
March 03 2013 10:52 GMT
#3
yes, such terrible news.
MKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKPMKP..../JIZZ
KAkos MAgos
Profile Joined July 2011
Greece47 Posts
March 03 2013 10:53 GMT
#4
the winners write the histroy never forget that.
Isualin
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1903 Posts
March 03 2013 10:53 GMT
#5
I am sorry for my ignorant question(i dont know much nor care about this stuff) but who are they going to punish?
| INnoVation | The literal god TY | ByuNjwa | LRSL when? |
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28648 Posts
March 03 2013 10:54 GMT
#6
there might be one or two criminals of the nazi regime who are still not found, still alive, and still not punished. I don't think moving heaven and earth to track down those 95+ year olds is really smart prioritizing though.

still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
Moderator
Le Cheque Zo
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Spain133 Posts
March 03 2013 10:54 GMT
#7
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
SiroKO
Profile Joined February 2012
France721 Posts
March 03 2013 10:58 GMT
#8
On March 03 2013 19:48 electronic voyeur wrote:
According to a recent report by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the full horror of the Holocaust is even much more shocking than was believed. The research, so far on its 13th year, revealed there were around 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps across Europe. That marks quite the increase from the 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos that researchers expected to find when they began their work 13 years ago. The figure doesn’t just include death camps but, among others, also some 30,000 forced labor camps and 500 brothels filled with sex slaves.

Show nested quote +
“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” said Hartmut Berghoff, director of the German Historical Institute in Washington, D.C. Researchers now estimate that as many as 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites they have identified in an encyclopedia that is expected to have seven volumes by 2025.


Link to full report at NYTimes : http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?hp#h[]
+ Show Spoiler +
THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.

What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.

The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.

The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.

Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise, the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.

The maps the researchers have created to identify the camps and ghettos turn wide sections of wartime Europe into black clusters of death, torture and slavery — centered in Germany and Poland, but reaching in all directions.

The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)

The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.

The brutal experience of Henry Greenbaum, an 84-year-old Holocaust survivor who lives outside Washington, typifies the wide range of Nazi sites.

When Mr. Greenbaum, a volunteer at the Holocaust museum, tells visitors today about his wartime odyssey, listeners inevitably focus on his confinement of months at Auschwitz, the most notorious of all the camps.

But the images of the other camps where the Nazis imprisoned him are ingrained in his memory as deeply as the concentration camp number — A188991 — tattooed on his left forearm.

In an interview, he ticked off the locations in rapid fire, the details still vivid.

First came the Starachowice ghetto in his hometown in Poland, where the Germans herded his family and other local Jews in 1940, when he was just 12.

Next came a slave labor camp with six-foot-high fences outside the town, where he and a sister were moved while the rest of the family was sent to die at Treblinka. After his regular work shift at a factory, the Germans would force him and other prisoners to dig trenches that were used for dumping the bodies of victims. He was sent to Auschwitz, then removed to work at a chemical manufacturing plant in Poland known as Buna Monowitz, where he and some 50 other prisoners who had been held at the main camp at Auschwitz were taken to manufacture rubber and synthetic oil. And last was another slave labor camp at Flossenbürg, near the Czech border, where food was so scarce that the weight on his 5-foot-8-inch frame fell away to less than 100 pounds.

By the age of 17, Mr. Greenbaum had been enslaved in five camps in five years, and was on his way to a sixth, when American soldiers freed him in 1945. “Nobody even knows about these places,” Mr. Greenbaum said. “Everything should be documented. That’s very important. We try to tell the youngsters so that they know, and they’ll remember.”


The research could have legal implications as well by helping a small number of survivors document their continuing claims over unpaid insurance policies, looted property, seized land and other financial matters.

“HOW many claims have been rejected because the victims were in a camp that we didn’t even know about?” asked Sam Dubbin, a Florida lawyer who represents a group of survivors who are seeking to bring claims against European insurance companies.

Dr. Megargee, the lead researcher, said the project was changing the understanding among Holocaust scholars of how the camps and ghettos evolved.

As early as 1933, at the start of Hitler’s reign, the Third Reich established about 110 camps specifically designed to imprison some 10,000 political opponents and others, the researchers found. As Germany invaded and began occupying European neighbors, the use of camps and ghettos was expanded to confine and sometimes kill not only Jews but also homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and many other ethnic groups in Eastern Europe. The camps and ghettos varied enormously in their mission, organization and size, depending on the Nazis’ needs, the researchers have found.

The biggest site identified is the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, which held about 500,000 people at its height. But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her.

When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.

The numbers astound: 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettos; 980 concentration camps; 1,000 prisoner-of-war camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm, performing forced abortions, “Germanizing” prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers.

In Berlin alone, researchers have documented some 3,000 camps and so-called Jew houses, while Hamburg held 1,300 sites.

Dr. Dean, a co-researcher, said the findings left no doubt in his mind that many German citizens, despite the frequent claims of ignorance after the war, must have known about the widespread existence of the Nazi camps at the time.

“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”


It's a good thing that there are historians and scholars who are working tirelessly in search for truth about history. I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.


I guess the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and the Sulzberger owned NYT are about as fair and balanced as you can get.
Our envy always last longer than the happiness of those we envy
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11497 Posts
March 03 2013 10:58 GMT
#9
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote:
From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.


Not really. Basically, there is a limit to how evil something can be, and i think the holocaust is pretty much up there at the top. This might be weird, but this actually does not really change a lot in my opinion. The holocaust was an act of pure evil and cruelty on an unimaginable scale at 7000 camps, and it is still an act of unimaginable evil at 42500 camps.
ain
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany786 Posts
March 03 2013 11:01 GMT
#10
On March 03 2013 19:48 electronic voyeur wrote:
I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.


I think you're not quite up to date in this regard if you believe there is still anything to be done about this. Most of the people living at that time are dead by now.
fartosis77
Profile Joined February 2013
Belgium461 Posts
March 03 2013 11:02 GMT
#11
Oh well. We stomped the Indians pretty hard and no one seems to give a shit about that anymore. Give it time and it'll be forgotten, just like any other cruelties us humans have caused throughout history. RIP in piece~

Nice read though. I now know there were more camps than originally thought. This really puts things into perspective.
IM NESTEAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Cynry
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
810 Posts
March 03 2013 11:03 GMT
#12
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(


I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ?
I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
March 03 2013 11:04 GMT
#13
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
hfglgg
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany5372 Posts
March 03 2013 11:04 GMT
#14
i dont really get how this is more shocking. i always thought it was well known that the nazis forced jews into slave labour and slave labour does not sound like a 9 to 5 job where you go home to your families afterwards.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
March 03 2013 11:08 GMT
#15
On March 03 2013 20:03 Cynry wrote:
Show nested quote +
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(


I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ?
I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?


There are a lot of idiots in this world.
fartosis77
Profile Joined February 2013
Belgium461 Posts
March 03 2013 11:09 GMT
#16
On March 03 2013 20:03 Cynry wrote:
Show nested quote +
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(


I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ?
I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?

Silly topics such as these wouldn't exist? :~(
IM NESTEAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Rimstalker
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany734 Posts
March 03 2013 11:10 GMT
#17
I think you have to have a pretty sick mind to actively want to work in the scientific field of 'holocaust research'. Most (normal) people have quite a visceral reaction when they are confronted with this stuff, I was in the KZ Dachau about two months ago, and one woman basically had to be carried out of the 'barracks' there, completely in tears.

I can not see anything good coming from that.
Here be Dragons
Snotling
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany885 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-03 11:11:42
March 03 2013 11:11 GMT
#18
well, this really doesnt change much. the number of camps is quite abstract. if they change the number of victims, that would be a whole other story.

better focus on the nazis that we have in our society right at this moment
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8497 Posts
March 03 2013 11:12 GMT
#19
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?


This.

It's one of the most terrible things to have ever been commited by human beings. How can it get worse from there?

honkeybeef
Profile Joined July 2011
United States143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-03 11:16:18
March 03 2013 11:13 GMT
#20
Heil Hitler!

-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!

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