On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
As i said, i am not 100% certain of it since i am not involved with that kind of people, and i doubt that the whole thing is 100% logical. But the way i think it works is something like this (Just to clarify, this is a hypothetical neonazi holocaust denial chain of thought that i post to ridicule it, and most definitively NOT mine):
Jews are bad Hitler was totally a great guy. They still have a small bit of empathy left and realize that putting millions of people into death and torture camps is not really a nice thing to do. So since Hitler and nazis are totally nice guys who worked out how the world is supposed to work, they could not have done that. But people tell you that they did. But Jews are bad and sneaky, so they probably made it up to make the Nazis look bad. So they were justified to hate jews from the beginning, as they make something that dastardly up.
That is the most logical reasoning i can come up with.
On March 03 2013 20:34 DERPDERP wrote: Don't see many studies or threads about the more recent genocide of Rwanda, but hey it's africa, they don't matter, right?
It has more to do with the difference of going to Germany and study history and going to Rwanda and study what happened relatively recently with the risk of offending a lot of bad people...
On March 03 2013 20:34 DERPDERP wrote: Don't see many studies or threads about the more recent genocide of Rwanda, but hey it's africa, they don't matter, right?
The main scary point about the holocaust is that it is closer to home. A civilized modern state turned into a massive bizarre murder death cult in just a few years.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
Nope, it heavily depends. A lot of neonazi groups don't associate with the holocaust, especially in Germany. The leaders know that it would cost them too much of their following to just go all out "all jews must die". After all it's more about power than any sick ideals and the subject is kind of thrown into your face throughout school and social life. I'd also say that there are probably as many if not more holocaust deniers outside of Germany, especially in some countries around Israel.
TBH I think this is a sensible topic you need to be very careful what you throw together into one category. From how I read this report, I think they have also counted very small and probably temporary "camps". I think while a "work camp" was of course a bad place to be, I still have trouble to compare it to the horrors of the concentration camps. Pure forced labor without the intend of killings or least accepting heavy death tollsamongst the workers is inhuman, but it's not the holocaust.
The holocaust was bad because it was a genocide. Not because of the way how it was organized. If those scientists would have found fewer camps than they expected, would you (or they) have come up with the headline "holocaust not as bad as expected"? The only thing that matters is how many people were killed and what people had to suffer, and I didn't see the study bring up anything new here.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
It does make a slight difference in that the number will now rival the amount of people Stalin ended up killing indirectly, and therefore people can't say 'Stalin was worse in terms of death than the Holocaust'. Which I know is a pretty small thing but let's get this straight, the Holocaust is probably the worst thing ever to be done by a civilised society (second to slavery) and this has now become eminently more arguable when you can now include the monstrous death toll as well as the innumerable violations of human dignity.
Really? Why would you even WANT to argue like this? I don't get why anyone want to make a 'ranking' of some sorts. That just serves no purpose at all. In the end it's just a redefinition of things everyone knows already, just to get another big shocking head line. You either get that it was horrible or you don't.
It's horrible for sure, but it's strange how they relate it to the holocaust - the majority of those new camps found are slave labor or POW-camps, which has little to do with the death camps where the systematic murdering of people was happening. It provides some further insight in how the nazis kept their war machine going, but doesn't really change the death toll.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
believe it or not but right-wing powers are rising in Europe and along with them holocaust denial.
Even in Sweden, racism is excused and accepted, you know you're living in a world where truth is stranger than fiction if racism is more accepted than anti-racism.
the 3rd most popular party in Sweden today, is a party founded upon racism, patriotism and christianity...
To debate with a member of SD ( SverigeDemokraterna) is to debate against prejudices and conclusions based upon lies...
A song is worth more than a thousand words!
Horrible event in the history of mankind, still Im "glad" that, in times like these people get to know exactly how horrible the nazis were.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
Not quite sure what you're trying to argue here. There's been heavy debate on both sides on that topic but realistically no one has the power to hold the USA responsible and I'm not sure they want to either.
On March 03 2013 20:56 xwoGworwaTsx wrote: I want to be open, especially now that information is easier to get. Are there any solid basis for denying Holocaust?
Theres a ton of articles that question how accurate the numbers are and that's about it as far as credible articles go.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
It does make a slight difference in that the number will now rival the amount of people Stalin ended up killing indirectly, and therefore people can't say 'Stalin was worse in terms of death than the Holocaust'. Which I know is a pretty small thing but let's get this straight, the Holocaust is probably the worst thing ever to be done by a civilised society (second to slavery) and this has now become eminently more arguable when you can now include the monstrous death toll as well as the innumerable violations of human dignity.
Really? Why would you even WANT to argue like this? I don't get why anyone want to make a 'ranking' of some sorts. That just serves no purpose at all. In the end it's just a redefinition of things everyone knows already, just to get another big shocking head line. You either get that it was horrible or you don't.
I know, it's ridiculous. But there will be people who try to downplay the historical resonance of the holocaust by virtue of its death toll. Those people exist, and while you usually are just supposed to ignore them, it will be easier to just quote this research and hopefully they will do some reading and find out more about the atrocities that were perpetrated.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
It often ties into disputes in the Middle East. If the holocaust never happened, then the Jews' claim to Israel is not as strong and the dynamics of the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians might change in favour of the Palestinians. Ahmedinejad of Iran might be one of the most famous holocaust deniers with (I guess) this motive.
Then there are those who claim the Jews secretly rule the world and fabricated the holocaust for infinite goodwill and/or the establishment of Israel. Sometimes they don't have any other specific agenda than to "expose the conspiracy" or whatever, although it's very often tied to (or sparked by) a general discontent with Israel and/or Jews. British author David Irving may be one of the most famous ones with this motive.
Holocaust deniers often want to have some official investigation by historical facts, sometimes even without the explicit intention of disproving the holocaust. The line of reasoning is that there is no reason to investigate absolute truths (like no one would spend money to investigate whether, say, Australia exists or if it's just a fairy tale), and if there's an investigation, it means that it's no longer an absolute truth. (This is also the reason that China wants, and Japan does not want, an investigation about Senkaku/Diaoyu and vice versa with Japan/South Korea and Dokdo/Takeshima). In essence, one first wants there to be doubt about the facts.
Of course, if the investigation shows that the holocaust did indeed happen, then those results can be disputed and one can look for errors or mistakes made by the investigators. This might prompt more investigations and more errors and mistakes, and in the end, one can make the (feeble) argument that so many mistakes have (possibly intentionally) been made in regards to holocaust research that they simply have to be covering something up. So in lack of arguments, one prompts the other party to make mistakes which can later be made into arguments.
Note that holocause denial is illegal in several countries, including Germany.
EPT
