According to a recent report by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the full horror of the Holocaust is even much more shocking than was believed. The research, so far on its 13th year, revealed there were around 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps across Europe. That marks quite the increase from the 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos that researchers expected to find when they began their work 13 years ago. The figure doesn’t just include death camps but, among others, also some 30,000 forced labor camps and 500 brothels filled with sex slaves.
“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”
The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” said Hartmut Berghoff, director of the German Historical Institute in Washington, D.C. Researchers now estimate that as many as 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites they have identified in an encyclopedia that is expected to have seven volumes by 2025.
THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.
What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.
The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.
The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.
“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”
The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.
Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise, the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.
The maps the researchers have created to identify the camps and ghettos turn wide sections of wartime Europe into black clusters of death, torture and slavery — centered in Germany and Poland, but reaching in all directions.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)
The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.
The brutal experience of Henry Greenbaum, an 84-year-old Holocaust survivor who lives outside Washington, typifies the wide range of Nazi sites.
When Mr. Greenbaum, a volunteer at the Holocaust museum, tells visitors today about his wartime odyssey, listeners inevitably focus on his confinement of months at Auschwitz, the most notorious of all the camps.
But the images of the other camps where the Nazis imprisoned him are ingrained in his memory as deeply as the concentration camp number — A188991 — tattooed on his left forearm.
In an interview, he ticked off the locations in rapid fire, the details still vivid.
First came the Starachowice ghetto in his hometown in Poland, where the Germans herded his family and other local Jews in 1940, when he was just 12.
Next came a slave labor camp with six-foot-high fences outside the town, where he and a sister were moved while the rest of the family was sent to die at Treblinka. After his regular work shift at a factory, the Germans would force him and other prisoners to dig trenches that were used for dumping the bodies of victims. He was sent to Auschwitz, then removed to work at a chemical manufacturing plant in Poland known as Buna Monowitz, where he and some 50 other prisoners who had been held at the main camp at Auschwitz were taken to manufacture rubber and synthetic oil. And last was another slave labor camp at Flossenbürg, near the Czech border, where food was so scarce that the weight on his 5-foot-8-inch frame fell away to less than 100 pounds.
By the age of 17, Mr. Greenbaum had been enslaved in five camps in five years, and was on his way to a sixth, when American soldiers freed him in 1945. “Nobody even knows about these places,” Mr. Greenbaum said. “Everything should be documented. That’s very important. We try to tell the youngsters so that they know, and they’ll remember.”
The research could have legal implications as well by helping a small number of survivors document their continuing claims over unpaid insurance policies, looted property, seized land and other financial matters.
“HOW many claims have been rejected because the victims were in a camp that we didn’t even know about?” asked Sam Dubbin, a Florida lawyer who represents a group of survivors who are seeking to bring claims against European insurance companies.
Dr. Megargee, the lead researcher, said the project was changing the understanding among Holocaust scholars of how the camps and ghettos evolved.
As early as 1933, at the start of Hitler’s reign, the Third Reich established about 110 camps specifically designed to imprison some 10,000 political opponents and others, the researchers found. As Germany invaded and began occupying European neighbors, the use of camps and ghettos was expanded to confine and sometimes kill not only Jews but also homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and many other ethnic groups in Eastern Europe. The camps and ghettos varied enormously in their mission, organization and size, depending on the Nazis’ needs, the researchers have found.
The biggest site identified is the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, which held about 500,000 people at its height. But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her.
When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.
The numbers astound: 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettos; 980 concentration camps; 1,000 prisoner-of-war camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm, performing forced abortions, “Germanizing” prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers.
In Berlin alone, researchers have documented some 3,000 camps and so-called Jew houses, while Hamburg held 1,300 sites.
Dr. Dean, a co-researcher, said the findings left no doubt in his mind that many German citizens, despite the frequent claims of ignorance after the war, must have known about the widespread existence of the Nazi camps at the time.
“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”
It's a good thing that there are historians and scholars who are working tirelessly in search for truth about history. I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.
there might be one or two criminals of the nazi regime who are still not found, still alive, and still not punished. I don't think moving heaven and earth to track down those 95+ year olds is really smart prioritizing though.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
On March 03 2013 19:48 electronic voyeur wrote: According to a recent report by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the full horror of the Holocaust is even much more shocking than was believed. The research, so far on its 13th year, revealed there were around 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps across Europe. That marks quite the increase from the 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos that researchers expected to find when they began their work 13 years ago. The figure doesn’t just include death camps but, among others, also some 30,000 forced labor camps and 500 brothels filled with sex slaves.
“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”
The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” said Hartmut Berghoff, director of the German Historical Institute in Washington, D.C. Researchers now estimate that as many as 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites they have identified in an encyclopedia that is expected to have seven volumes by 2025.
THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.
What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.
The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.
The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.
“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”
The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.
Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise, the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.
The maps the researchers have created to identify the camps and ghettos turn wide sections of wartime Europe into black clusters of death, torture and slavery — centered in Germany and Poland, but reaching in all directions.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned by 2025.)
The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.
The brutal experience of Henry Greenbaum, an 84-year-old Holocaust survivor who lives outside Washington, typifies the wide range of Nazi sites.
When Mr. Greenbaum, a volunteer at the Holocaust museum, tells visitors today about his wartime odyssey, listeners inevitably focus on his confinement of months at Auschwitz, the most notorious of all the camps.
But the images of the other camps where the Nazis imprisoned him are ingrained in his memory as deeply as the concentration camp number — A188991 — tattooed on his left forearm.
In an interview, he ticked off the locations in rapid fire, the details still vivid.
First came the Starachowice ghetto in his hometown in Poland, where the Germans herded his family and other local Jews in 1940, when he was just 12.
Next came a slave labor camp with six-foot-high fences outside the town, where he and a sister were moved while the rest of the family was sent to die at Treblinka. After his regular work shift at a factory, the Germans would force him and other prisoners to dig trenches that were used for dumping the bodies of victims. He was sent to Auschwitz, then removed to work at a chemical manufacturing plant in Poland known as Buna Monowitz, where he and some 50 other prisoners who had been held at the main camp at Auschwitz were taken to manufacture rubber and synthetic oil. And last was another slave labor camp at Flossenbürg, near the Czech border, where food was so scarce that the weight on his 5-foot-8-inch frame fell away to less than 100 pounds.
By the age of 17, Mr. Greenbaum had been enslaved in five camps in five years, and was on his way to a sixth, when American soldiers freed him in 1945. “Nobody even knows about these places,” Mr. Greenbaum said. “Everything should be documented. That’s very important. We try to tell the youngsters so that they know, and they’ll remember.”
The research could have legal implications as well by helping a small number of survivors document their continuing claims over unpaid insurance policies, looted property, seized land and other financial matters.
“HOW many claims have been rejected because the victims were in a camp that we didn’t even know about?” asked Sam Dubbin, a Florida lawyer who represents a group of survivors who are seeking to bring claims against European insurance companies.
Dr. Megargee, the lead researcher, said the project was changing the understanding among Holocaust scholars of how the camps and ghettos evolved.
As early as 1933, at the start of Hitler’s reign, the Third Reich established about 110 camps specifically designed to imprison some 10,000 political opponents and others, the researchers found. As Germany invaded and began occupying European neighbors, the use of camps and ghettos was expanded to confine and sometimes kill not only Jews but also homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and many other ethnic groups in Eastern Europe. The camps and ghettos varied enormously in their mission, organization and size, depending on the Nazis’ needs, the researchers have found.
The biggest site identified is the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, which held about 500,000 people at its height. But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her.
When the research began in 2000, Dr. Megargee said he expected to find perhaps 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos, based on postwar estimates. But the numbers kept climbing — first to 11,500, then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500.
The numbers astound: 30,000 slave labor camps; 1,150 Jewish ghettos; 980 concentration camps; 1,000 prisoner-of-war camps; 500 brothels filled with sex slaves; and thousands of other camps used for euthanizing the elderly and infirm, performing forced abortions, “Germanizing” prisoners or transporting victims to killing centers.
In Berlin alone, researchers have documented some 3,000 camps and so-called Jew houses, while Hamburg held 1,300 sites.
Dr. Dean, a co-researcher, said the findings left no doubt in his mind that many German citizens, despite the frequent claims of ignorance after the war, must have known about the widespread existence of the Nazi camps at the time.
“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”
It's a good thing that there are historians and scholars who are working tirelessly in search for truth about history. I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.
I guess the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and the Sulzberger owned NYT are about as fair and balanced as you can get.
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote: From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
Not really. Basically, there is a limit to how evil something can be, and i think the holocaust is pretty much up there at the top. This might be weird, but this actually does not really change a lot in my opinion. The holocaust was an act of pure evil and cruelty on an unimaginable scale at 7000 camps, and it is still an act of unimaginable evil at 42500 camps.
On March 03 2013 19:48 electronic voyeur wrote: I just hope the victims and their families find justice and the criminals of the Nazi regime gets punished.
I think you're not quite up to date in this regard if you believe there is still anything to be done about this. Most of the people living at that time are dead by now.
Oh well. We stomped the Indians pretty hard and no one seems to give a shit about that anymore. Give it time and it'll be forgotten, just like any other cruelties us humans have caused throughout history. RIP in piece~
Nice read though. I now know there were more camps than originally thought. This really puts things into perspective.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
i dont really get how this is more shocking. i always thought it was well known that the nazis forced jews into slave labour and slave labour does not sound like a 9 to 5 job where you go home to your families afterwards.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
I think you have to have a pretty sick mind to actively want to work in the scientific field of 'holocaust research'. Most (normal) people have quite a visceral reaction when they are confronted with this stuff, I was in the KZ Dachau about two months ago, and one woman basically had to be carried out of the 'barracks' there, completely in tears.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
This.
It's one of the most terrible things to have ever been commited by human beings. How can it get worse from there?
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
If you compare the scale of death to Mao's Great Leap Forward, it pales in comparison. He staved his own people but instead of crematoriums, just gulags and all is forgiven as it was for the greater good of our country.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
Silly topics such as these wouldn't exist? :~(
There are a lot of really stupid people. There are also neonazis out there, but even most of them probably don't want to be associated with something as bad as the holocaust. So instead they decide that it did not happen and was actually made up by the jews to gain their own state and make the nazis look bad at the same time, because of the jewish world conspiracy etc.... Or something similarly idiotic. I must confess that i am not 100% up to date on neonazi ideology. But it works something along those lines.
Holocaust was horrible, but I don't know why everyone ignores Stalin's Great Purge. Stalin killed around 17million russians, while the Holocaust caused somewhere in the vecinity of 6 milion. Of course, the fact that Hitler targeted a specific group of people without any real reason is more frightening that the killing of russian in the name of political power.
My point is, if you want to mourn for those who died for nothing, mourn all of them.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
It does make a slight difference in that the number will now rival the amount of people Stalin ended up killing indirectly, and therefore people can't say 'Stalin was worse in terms of death than the Holocaust'. Which I know is a pretty small thing but let's get this straight, the Holocaust is probably the worst thing ever to be done by a civilised society (second to slavery) and this has now become eminently more arguable when you can now include the monstrous death toll as well as the innumerable violations of human dignity.
On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote: the winners write the histroy never forget that.
On March 03 2013 20:16 bobsire wrote: omg 20million people died.. thats insane.
It was already insane. I feel inclined to say that this changes little; the holocaust was already an act of unimaginable cruelty. The numbers are higher, but I don't really feel much about it. But then again, when millions of people were murdered in cold blood, I guess higher numbers don't really change the way anyone feels about it.
On March 03 2013 20:13 honkeybeef wrote: Heil Hitler!
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
On March 03 2013 20:13 honkeybeef wrote: Heil Hitler!
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
Most people don't actually deny that anything happened just that it didn't happen as is widely believed. For instance people claim that way fewer people died, the nazi regime was never involved, jews have conspired to "promote" it at the expense of worse genocides (like Stalin's) to gain political power, etc.
And as others have said the point is usually stupidity and/or antisemitism.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote: the winners write the histroy never forget that.
Is this a subtle way of denying the Holocaust?[/QUOTE]
No, it's just something to keep in mind. If germany had managed to win the war, we wouldn't have known about their war crimes. The sad thing is that, with all the potential for media manipulation, a new Holocaust could still happen and we wouldn't know/forced to believe it was right (just look at the muslin hatred in the US).
On March 03 2013 20:13 honkeybeef wrote: Heil Hitler!
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
I've never been so glad that a post was already reported.
If you're going to use german, I will too: Verpiss dich.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
Silly topics such as these wouldn't exist? :~(
To be fair i am also interested on what is Holocaust denial and why it is on raising.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
Silly topics such as these wouldn't exist? :~(
To be fair i am also interested on what is Holocaust denial and why it is on raising.
It is either on the rise, or just that the idiots who always believed that garbage are finally just less embarrassed to come public with their beliefs...
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
As i said, i am not 100% certain of it since i am not involved with that kind of people, and i doubt that the whole thing is 100% logical. But the way i think it works is something like this (Just to clarify, this is a hypothetical neonazi holocaust denial chain of thought that i post to ridicule it, and most definitively NOT mine):
Jews are bad Hitler was totally a great guy. They still have a small bit of empathy left and realize that putting millions of people into death and torture camps is not really a nice thing to do. So since Hitler and nazis are totally nice guys who worked out how the world is supposed to work, they could not have done that. But people tell you that they did. But Jews are bad and sneaky, so they probably made it up to make the Nazis look bad. So they were justified to hate jews from the beginning, as they make something that dastardly up.
That is the most logical reasoning i can come up with.
On March 03 2013 20:34 DERPDERP wrote: Don't see many studies or threads about the more recent genocide of Rwanda, but hey it's africa, they don't matter, right?
It has more to do with the difference of going to Germany and study history and going to Rwanda and study what happened relatively recently with the risk of offending a lot of bad people...
On March 03 2013 20:34 DERPDERP wrote: Don't see many studies or threads about the more recent genocide of Rwanda, but hey it's africa, they don't matter, right?
The main scary point about the holocaust is that it is closer to home. A civilized modern state turned into a massive bizarre murder death cult in just a few years.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
Nope, it heavily depends. A lot of neonazi groups don't associate with the holocaust, especially in Germany. The leaders know that it would cost them too much of their following to just go all out "all jews must die". After all it's more about power than any sick ideals and the subject is kind of thrown into your face throughout school and social life. I'd also say that there are probably as many if not more holocaust deniers outside of Germany, especially in some countries around Israel.
TBH I think this is a sensible topic you need to be very careful what you throw together into one category. From how I read this report, I think they have also counted very small and probably temporary "camps". I think while a "work camp" was of course a bad place to be, I still have trouble to compare it to the horrors of the concentration camps. Pure forced labor without the intend of killings or least accepting heavy death tollsamongst the workers is inhuman, but it's not the holocaust.
The holocaust was bad because it was a genocide. Not because of the way how it was organized. If those scientists would have found fewer camps than they expected, would you (or they) have come up with the headline "holocaust not as bad as expected"? The only thing that matters is how many people were killed and what people had to suffer, and I didn't see the study bring up anything new here.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
It does make a slight difference in that the number will now rival the amount of people Stalin ended up killing indirectly, and therefore people can't say 'Stalin was worse in terms of death than the Holocaust'. Which I know is a pretty small thing but let's get this straight, the Holocaust is probably the worst thing ever to be done by a civilised society (second to slavery) and this has now become eminently more arguable when you can now include the monstrous death toll as well as the innumerable violations of human dignity.
Really? Why would you even WANT to argue like this? I don't get why anyone want to make a 'ranking' of some sorts. That just serves no purpose at all. In the end it's just a redefinition of things everyone knows already, just to get another big shocking head line. You either get that it was horrible or you don't.
It's horrible for sure, but it's strange how they relate it to the holocaust - the majority of those new camps found are slave labor or POW-camps, which has little to do with the death camps where the systematic murdering of people was happening. It provides some further insight in how the nazis kept their war machine going, but doesn't really change the death toll.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
believe it or not but right-wing powers are rising in Europe and along with them holocaust denial.
Even in Sweden, racism is excused and accepted, you know you're living in a world where truth is stranger than fiction if racism is more accepted than anti-racism.
the 3rd most popular party in Sweden today, is a party founded upon racism, patriotism and christianity...
To debate with a member of SD ( SverigeDemokraterna) is to debate against prejudices and conclusions based upon lies...
A song is worth more than a thousand words!
Horrible event in the history of mankind, still Im "glad" that, in times like these people get to know exactly how horrible the nazis were.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
Not quite sure what you're trying to argue here. There's been heavy debate on both sides on that topic but realistically no one has the power to hold the USA responsible and I'm not sure they want to either.
On March 03 2013 20:56 xwoGworwaTsx wrote: I want to be open, especially now that information is easier to get. Are there any solid basis for denying Holocaust?
Theres a ton of articles that question how accurate the numbers are and that's about it as far as credible articles go.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
It does make a slight difference in that the number will now rival the amount of people Stalin ended up killing indirectly, and therefore people can't say 'Stalin was worse in terms of death than the Holocaust'. Which I know is a pretty small thing but let's get this straight, the Holocaust is probably the worst thing ever to be done by a civilised society (second to slavery) and this has now become eminently more arguable when you can now include the monstrous death toll as well as the innumerable violations of human dignity.
Really? Why would you even WANT to argue like this? I don't get why anyone want to make a 'ranking' of some sorts. That just serves no purpose at all. In the end it's just a redefinition of things everyone knows already, just to get another big shocking head line. You either get that it was horrible or you don't.
I know, it's ridiculous. But there will be people who try to downplay the historical resonance of the holocaust by virtue of its death toll. Those people exist, and while you usually are just supposed to ignore them, it will be easier to just quote this research and hopefully they will do some reading and find out more about the atrocities that were perpetrated.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
It often ties into disputes in the Middle East. If the holocaust never happened, then the Jews' claim to Israel is not as strong and the dynamics of the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians might change in favour of the Palestinians. Ahmedinejad of Iran might be one of the most famous holocaust deniers with (I guess) this motive.
Then there are those who claim the Jews secretly rule the world and fabricated the holocaust for infinite goodwill and/or the establishment of Israel. Sometimes they don't have any other specific agenda than to "expose the conspiracy" or whatever, although it's very often tied to (or sparked by) a general discontent with Israel and/or Jews. British author David Irving may be one of the most famous ones with this motive.
Holocaust deniers often want to have some official investigation by historical facts, sometimes even without the explicit intention of disproving the holocaust. The line of reasoning is that there is no reason to investigate absolute truths (like no one would spend money to investigate whether, say, Australia exists or if it's just a fairy tale), and if there's an investigation, it means that it's no longer an absolute truth. (This is also the reason that China wants, and Japan does not want, an investigation about Senkaku/Diaoyu and vice versa with Japan/South Korea and Dokdo/Takeshima). In essence, one first wants there to be doubt about the facts.
Of course, if the investigation shows that the holocaust did indeed happen, then those results can be disputed and one can look for errors or mistakes made by the investigators. This might prompt more investigations and more errors and mistakes, and in the end, one can make the (feeble) argument that so many mistakes have (possibly intentionally) been made in regards to holocaust research that they simply have to be covering something up. So in lack of arguments, one prompts the other party to make mistakes which can later be made into arguments.
Note that holocause denial is illegal in several countries, including Germany.
On March 03 2013 20:49 sushiman wrote: It's horrible for sure, but it's strange how they relate it to the holocaust - the majority of those new camps found are slave labor or POW-camps, which has little to do with the death camps where the systematic murdering of people was happening. It provides some further insight in how the nazis kept their war machine going, but doesn't really change the death toll.
sad that not a lot of people will understand what it means and just believe the propaganda they're served.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
They believe in "facts" of Holocaust denial because those "facts" play into their preconceived notions about Jews. Namely, that the Holocaust is the product of the Jewish run media elites and so forth. It's not that they don't on some level want it to have happened.
It's that, this way, they get to feel like they've learned some special "truth" that those dirty Jews don't want revealed. It makes them feel better about themselves than believing that millions of Jews were brutally murdered.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
They believe in "facts" of Holocaust denial because those "facts" play into their preconceived notions about Jews. Namely, that the Holocaust is the product of the Jewish run media elites and so forth. It's not that they don't on some level want it to have happened.
It's that, this way, they get to feel like they've learned some special "truth" that those dirty Jews don't want revealed. It makes them feel better about themselves than believing that millions of Jews were brutally murdered.
People who deny the holocaust/think the numbers are way off aren't necessarily neo nazis.
First thought: God thats fucked up that it's even possible to be worse than previously thought? It was but second thought tells me something else, why do we need to know this? To shame germans? To show sympathy for those in the camps, where few of them are still alive? Learn from mistakes? Neither of those really make sense for me so all it did was giving me a bad taste in the mouth
humanity has to deal with it`s sins, but it`s totally worthless it if we dont learn from it and try to not repeat it. When I look around the globe today I feel not very good and it seems like people dont learn very fast. Those articles are great, but I wish they would draw the line to our present and show similarities to ongoing "projects".
On March 03 2013 21:05 Iplaythings wrote: First thought: God thats fucked up that it's even possible to be worse than previously thought? It was but second thought tells me something else, why do we need to know this? To shame germans? To show sympathy for those in the camps, where few of them are still alive? Learn from mistakes? Neither of those really make sense for me so all it did was giving me a bad taste in the mouth
The third question would be why did this only get revealed almost 70 years after the fact. Something just seems off with how large those numbers are to me. 3000 camps in Berlin?
On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote: the winners write the histroy never forget that.[/QUOTE]
Is this a subtle way of denying the Holocaust?
No, it's just something to keep in mind. If germany had managed to win the war, we wouldn't have known about their war crimes. The sad thing is that, with all the potential for media manipulation, a new Holocaust could still happen and we wouldn't know/forced to believe it was right (just look at the muslin hatred in the US).
A holocaust is happening and has been happening for quite a while. It's called North Korea. The numbers are a little smaller and the victims belong to the same race as the oppressors but it's pretty much the same thing.
On March 03 2013 21:05 Iplaythings wrote: First thought: God thats fucked up that it's even possible to be worse than previously thought? It was but second thought tells me something else, why do we need to know this? To shame germans? To show sympathy for those in the camps, where few of them are still alive? Learn from mistakes? Neither of those really make sense for me so all it did was giving me a bad taste in the mouth
The third question would be why did this only get revealed almost 70 years after the fact. Something just seems off with how large those numbers are to me. 3000 camps in Berlin?
I think it is because you are thinking of a different thing than the researchers are when you both use the same word. You think of a camp as something large with a lot of people. While if I understand it correctly they think of things with 20 people as well.
On March 03 2013 21:05 Iplaythings wrote: First thought: God thats fucked up that it's even possible to be worse than previously thought? It was but second thought tells me something else, why do we need to know this? To shame germans? To show sympathy for those in the camps, where few of them are still alive? Learn from mistakes? Neither of those really make sense for me so all it did was giving me a bad taste in the mouth
The third question would be why did this only get revealed almost 70 years after the fact. Something just seems off with how large those numbers are to me. 3000 camps in Berlin?
I think it is because you are thinking of a different thing than the researchers are when you both use the same word. You think of a camp as something large with a lot of people. While if I understand it correctly they think of things with 20 people as well.
Possibly, I just think that people would have come forward about their experiences in smaller concentration camps by now.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
It often ties into disputes in the Middle East. If the holocaust never happened, then the Jews' claim to Israel is not as strong and the dynamics of the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians might change in favour of the Palestinians. Ahmedinejad of Iran might be one of the most famous holocaust deniers with (I guess) this motive.
Then there are those who claim the Jews secretly rule the world and fabricated the holocaust for infinite goodwill and/or the establishment of Israel. Sometimes they don't have any other specific agenda than to "expose the conspiracy" or whatever, although it's very often tied to (or sparked by) a general discontent with Israel and/or Jews. British author David Irving may be one of the most famous ones with this motive.
Holocaust deniers often want to have some official investigation by historical facts, sometimes even without the explicit intention of disproving the holocaust. The line of reasoning is that there is no reason to investigate absolute truths (like no one would spend money to investigate whether, say, Australia exists or if it's just a fairy tale), and if there's an investigation, it means that it's no longer an absolute truth. (This is also the reason that China wants, and Japan does not want, an investigation about Senkaku/Diaoyu and vice versa with Japan/South Korea and Dokdo/Takeshima). In essence, one first wants there to be doubt about the facts.
Of course, if the investigation shows that the holocaust did indeed happen, then those results can be disputed and one can look for errors or mistakes made by the investigators. This might prompt more investigations and more errors and mistakes, and in the end, one can make the (feeble) argument that so many mistakes have (possibly intentionally) been made in regards to holocaust research that they simply have to be covering something up. So in lack of arguments, one prompts the other party to make mistakes which can later be made into arguments.
Note that holocause denial is illegal in several countries, including Germany.
It also is in the Netherlands. Which I find weird. Freedom of speech except when it comes to the holocaust. I'm not anti-Semitic or think the holocaust didn't happen. Absolutely not! But it's just weird. Like Mein Kampf being the only banned book in the Netherlands.
A lot of holocaust denial also just claims it wasn't that big of a scale. That only some thousands of Jews (gays, blacks and mentally handicapped) were murdered in WW2.
We're dressing up as Indians nowadays during carnaval, so give it time and we'll be able to walk around in a gestapo uniform wearing a swastika on our upper arms while drinking beer till we drop~ ;; ~
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Well , dying on a massive scale is really nothing unique.
50 million chinese died under Maos Regime, 20 million russians under Stalin , 5-9 million died during the ethnic cleansing of eastern europe by the Nazis, Slavery and the extermination/forced relocation of Natives by Britains and Americans killed millions in India, Africa and America.
Those numbers are so big because population in the 19-20th century is so high, The thirty year war in central europe between catholics and protestants killed much less, but still exterminated 90% of the population in some areas.
Point is, you can justify almost anything if you dehumanize your victim. we should stop doing that and learn that different does not mean wrong.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
On March 03 2013 21:15 fartosis77 wrote: We're dressing up as Indians nowadays during carnaval, so give it time and we'll be able to walk around in a gestapo uniform wearing a swastika on our upper arms while drinking beer till we drop~ ;; ~
Maybe when no one who actually saw it happen or lost someone in ww2 is still alive? The native American genocide is a bit longer ago.
On March 03 2013 21:12 Sjokola wrote: It also is in the Netherlands. Which I find weird. Freedom of speech except when it comes to the holocaust. I'm not anti-Semitic or think the holocaust didn't happen. Absolutely not! But it's just weird. Like Mein Kampf being the only banned book in the Netherlands.
A lot of holocaust denial also just claims it wasn't that big of a scale. That only some thousands of Jews (gays, blacks and mentally handicapped) were murdered in WW2.
Yeah. I mean I got faceslapped with the 3rd Reich during history classes on a regular basis (and at the end of school I wished they could teach more about the whole german history but well. We as germans get this topic rubbed into consciosness on a regular basis, but they ban the book Hitler wrote.That just makes no sense. And seriously, mostof those neonazis in germany never red the book and believe it to be awesome or something. But hey, guess what? That book is so stupid! You gonna laugh your ass off about HOW STUPID his theories are.
There is a turkish comedian (a really clever guy) who red from the book mein Kampf to his audience and pointed out the absolutely stupidness of it.He even did that in front of an audiance full of nazis!
I'm not exactly sure what this study is trying to tell people. It's talking about sites where "just a dozen prisoners worked", goes on to saying that 30000/42500 of the camps it's talking about are "slave labor camps" and uses that information to claim that "the Holocaust was worse than we thought it is".
This article says nothing about how it actually counts. As an example, Auschwitz had dozens of different compartments which this study apparently all counts as different instances (since they specifically mention Buna Monowitz as something different from Auschwitz). It does not differentiate between concentration and extermination camps, it doesn't tell us anything but huge, horrible numbers.
The Holocaust is about a systematic genocide, not about a number of work camps. Unless they find evidence for a larger amount of people being killed this entire article has nothing to do with the Holocaust itself. Statements like "15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned" just seem insulting to victims. You just can't make such a statement while claiming to be historically accurate.
The final statement is even worse because of what it implies:
“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”
Maybe I'm overinterpreting, but to me the entire point of that statement is to point out that "everyone had to know what's going on because it was everywhere" which tries to prove political points more than it tries to be historically accurate.
On March 03 2013 21:05 Iplaythings wrote: First thought: God thats fucked up that it's even possible to be worse than previously thought? It was but second thought tells me something else, why do we need to know this? To shame germans? To show sympathy for those in the camps, where few of them are still alive? Learn from mistakes? Neither of those really make sense for me so all it did was giving me a bad taste in the mouth
How about setting facts straight?
Considering the popularityrise among rightwing extremists lately in Europe, I think its Important to remind people of our history.
On March 03 2013 21:02 Simberto wrote: I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
I'm not an expert on the field, but there were some news articles in 2010 that Germany finally managed to pay off everything from the first WW. It ties into interests as Germany couldn't really pay everything right off the bat. I don't know however, how it's going with the second WW.
On March 03 2013 20:13 Disregard wrote: If you compare the scale of death to Mao's Great Leap Forward, it pales in comparison. He staved his own people but instead of crematoriums, just gulags and all is forgiven as it was for the greater good of our country.
On March 03 2013 20:15 Kinon wrote: Holocaust was horrible, but I don't know why everyone ignores Stalin's Great Purge. Stalin killed around 17million russians, while the Holocaust caused somewhere in the vecinity of 6 milion. Of course, the fact that Hitler targeted a specific group of people without any real reason is more frightening that the killing of russian in the name of political power.
My point is, if you want to mourn for those who died for nothing, mourn all of them.
I see all of these as the same. All those dictators had somewhat different visions, but they did what they did in attempt to stay in power and build up their empires. All of their countries were facing crises and enemies needed to be invented to rally the people. The nazis managed to play the race card. It worked great and they even managed to get "science" and religion to fool themselves into thinking they're in the right.
On March 03 2013 21:18 r.Evo wrote: I'm not exactly sure what this study is trying to tell people. It's talking about sites where "just a dozen prisoners worked", goes on to saying that 30000/42500 of the camps it's talking about are "slave labor camps" and uses that information to claim that "the Holocaust was worse than we thought it is".
This article says nothing about how it actually counts. As an example, Auschwitz had dozens of different compartments which this study apparently all counts as different instances (since they specifically mention Buna Monowitz as something different from Auschwitz). It does not differentiate between concentration and extermination camps, it doesn't tell us anything but huge, horrible numbers.
The Holocaust is about a systematic genocide, not about a number of work camps. Unless they find evidence for a larger amount of people being killed this entire article has nothing to do with the Holocaust itself. Statements like "15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned" just seem insulting to victims. You just can't make such a statement while claiming to be historically accurate.
The final statement is even worse because of what it implies:
“You literally could not go anywhere in Germany without running into forced labor camps, P.O.W. camps, concentration camps,” he said. “They were everywhere.”
Maybe I'm overinterpreting, but to me the entire point of that statement is to point out that "everyone had to know what's going on because it was everywhere" which tries to prove political points more than it tries to be historically accurate.
I guess that walking into a POW camp doesn't mean you know about the genocide. But it seems like they're implying that.
Meh. I gain nothing from posting on this. Sorry for the blank post. Holocaust was horrible, don't see why we have to bring up new evidence to try and persuade people.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
I'm not entirely sure about WW2, but I know that the last payment for WW1 was done in 2010.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote: How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana. How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population. I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
this imo... how can they just find out about 14 million people all of a sudden? seems really weird to me. how did never anyone know about those 14 million people?
On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote: How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana. How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population. I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
They weren't there at the same time. It's over a time of 10 years maybe. And also they weren't only Germans. They came from the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Austria, Poland and so on and so forth.
On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote: How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana. How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population. I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified
Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp or gas chambers".
"Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view.
On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote: How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana. How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population. I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified
Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp and gas chambers".
"Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
It's interesting how aliens see German history. The number of victims doesn't change anything. Even if the number was smaller than 100.000 (or any given number), the main 'idea' behind the holocaust and the way it was executed is one of the most disturbing things in the history of humans.
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
It's interesting how aliens see German history. The number of victims doesn't change anything. Even if the number was smaller than 100.000 (or any given number), the main 'idea' behind the holocaust and the way it was executed is one of the most disturbing things in the history of humans.
I agree. I mean, yeah numbers mean a lot, but there was something about the way Nazi's distorted elements of modern society and thinking to bring upon such horrors. Scarier, and more resonating, than other examples of mass murder imo. The situation after WW1 that brought upon such thinking is also more apt to discussion as well.
On March 03 2013 21:24 Nacl(Draq) wrote: How could they lose track of 14 million people? That's almost two new york cities worth of population. The current population of Germany is 80 million. This is a country roughly the size of montana. How did they come up with a quarter of the current population being stored in camps and brothels?
German(137,800) + France + Belgium + Poland is roughly 540,000 sq miles. If you put a camp every 12 sq miles you still have too many camps for all of german occupied europe and left over population. I'm not denying the holocaust, I'm just saying this is a ridiculous over exaggeration. It was a horrible thing and the death toll in the war was even worse. Why do we have to make crazy claims to just increase the horror of it when those new claims are highly improbable and the actual event is already horrific.
The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites that they have identified
Let's take 5 million Jews who get sent to a Ghetto. If those people get sent to a concentration camp next, suddenly you have "10 million people who got sent to a Ghetto or to a concentration camp". If out of those 5 million 2.5mil get sent to slave labour camps and the other 2.5 million get sent to an extermination camp you suddenly have "15 million who got sent to a Ghetto, concentration camp, slave labour camp and gas chambers".
"Math" among those lines is the only thing that makes sense at a first glance. That's why I said earlier that a statement saying "died or were imprisoned" is completely unacceptable from a historical point of view.
Do you think they would be this stupid?
To be quite frank: Yes. Or rather "this clever".
A statement saying "5 million died and 10 million were imprisoned" is an acceptable statement, besides the point that the holocaust historians I talked to won't tell you such a number, they will just tell you "we don't exactly know".
A statement saying "15 million died or were imprisoned" isn't trying to be accurate, it's trying to show you the biggest number possible for whatever reason.
PS: Keep in mind that, assuming the above scenario, the 10 million who were imprisoned are completely irrelevant if you're trying to back up the claim that "The Holocaust was worse than we originally assumed".
When you are carefully reading the article, it seems the only new thing is that for the first time someone counted all the places where people were imprisoned, killed or forced to work and added all the numbers up. Those are not all concentration camps and it was known beforehand that there would be small sites all over the place, just not the number and exact locations. So there is of course a scientific value to have this catalogued and documented but I don't see that much actual news here. Also, in a sensationalist manner, they treat a concentration camp the same as a small POW site just to get a high number. Going further, they add the death toll with the number of prisoners to reach the 15 to 20mil again to reach a nice headline (no word in the article if the actual death toll has changed in their estimate, which is doubtful, since registers are a more acurate way to measure this I'd think). In conclusion: yes, the Holocaust was a shocking cruelty, but this article doesn't bring all too much news (and is badly written I might add).
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
You yourself argued that numbers of death is the sole metric for worse...? It is incredibly bad what happened, inhumane, evil. What is the point in trying to "rank" genocides when we can all agree that they are an abomination?
Well if you try to refute any of this you'll be seen as an anti-Semite quite quickly by certain groups. The Dutch prime minister was called an anti-Semite when he thought banning Mein Kampf was no longer of any use and not very modern.
On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote: I think one sentence suits it best. The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
This quote is only applicable when you touch the surface of both. It's very reflective of modern news media and their benign methods of forcing reactions from their viewers.
Walk through a concentration camp in Poland, see the towers of shoes or the tons of hair collected, and tell me if you'd still think this was applicable.
On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote: I think one sentence suits it best. The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
Quoting Stalin ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic") in a holocaust thread seems a tad off-putting. It just goes on to show the wicked mentality of the big tyrants of the past.
On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote: I think one sentence suits it best. The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
Goddamned I'm so tired of that quote, and I bet it was simply attributed to stalin after his death.
This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
On March 03 2013 22:18 Xayoz wrote: This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
History is never irrelevant. People are researching the Roman Empire, or the Spartans, and that happened 2500 years ago. And why wouldn't they? And you want to forget about horrible events that happened not even a single human lifetime ago?
On March 03 2013 22:18 Xayoz wrote: This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
Yeah seriously. The amount of information about WW2 and especially the holocaust always creates the image that nothing bad expect this ever happened in history. Sometimes I feel america just uses it to lead our attention away from todays conflicts.
On March 03 2013 21:47 ACrow wrote: When you are carefully reading the article, it seems the only new thing is that for the first time someone counted all the places where people were imprisoned, killed or forced to work and added all the numbers up. Those are not all concentration camps and it was known beforehand that there would be small sites all over the place, just not the number and exact locations. So there is of course a scientific value to have this catalogued and documented but I don't see that much actual news here. Also, in a sensationalist manner, they treat a concentration camp the same as a small POW site just to get a high number. Going further, they add the death toll with the number of prisoners to reach the 15 to 20mil again to reach a nice headline (no word in the article if the actual death toll has changed in their estimate, which is doubtful, since registers are a more acurate way to measure this I'd think). In conclusion: yes, the Holocaust was a shocking cruelty, but this article doesn't bring all too much news (and is badly written I might add).
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
You yourself argued that numbers of death is the sole metric for worse...? It is incredibly bad what happened, inhumane, evil. What is the point in trying to "rank" genocides when we can all agree that they are an abomination?
i didn't mean numbers were the only way to look at which is worse. High casualty along with inhumane treatment that you would only expect in a horror film is more worse than simply high casualty. It's not like the holocaust is widely recognised as the worst in history randomly. There is a good reason for it.
On March 03 2013 22:18 Xayoz wrote: This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
History is never irrelevant. People are researching the Roman Empire, or the Spartans, and that happened 2500 years ago. And why wouldn't they? And you want to forget about horrible events that happened not even a single human lifetime ago?
Sure, we look up relevant history. We reference them, we research them, we may even let those events affect our way of life, our decisions, our thinking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping transparency, especially on past human events that should never be repeated in the future. We are educated, our children are educated, and their children will be educated about the atomic bombs, about the Holocaust, about the Crusades, and so on.
These studies and ad hoc numbers they come up 70 years after the actual events is even more facepalm inducing than the Auschwitz plaque fiasco (where they changed the 4 millions memorial to 1.1 but claimed that the total number stayed 6).
And the actual subject would be worth researching for sure, but with these sensationalist discoveries, hardly will we ever know more.
making news every few years about how much more worse it was then it was used to be, and reduce the death of allied bombing in dresden vs civilians when war was pretty much over from 600.000 to 20.000 ...
jaeh it was the worst part in the last century it was bad and all nazis are idiots but come on ... thats aint objective ... both sides killed alot, nazis was unhumans and killed alot civilians in camps we all know no reason to make every year a new study after 70 years
On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote: the winners write the histroy never forget that.
There are no winners in war. lol.
not from the humanity point, but for sure from the point of strategic, allied won and so they did nothing bad like stalin killed in his time more people then hitler never got that image because he "won"
On March 03 2013 22:01 Eisregen wrote: I think one sentence suits it best. The death of one single person is a catatrophe. The death of hundreds of thousand people just a statistic.
Goddamned I'm so tired of that quote, and I bet it was simply attributed to stalin after his death.
I think it has its origin in france. Dont know if stalin ever used that quote anyway
On March 03 2013 20:04 Gecko[Xp] wrote: What a silly title. How can it be worse than previously thought? Anyone know changed his mind about the holocaust, only because some numbers are higher?
uh yeah, of course. Those 'some numbers' are numbers of death. The higher the casualty, the more worse it is.
Guess Mao has locked in the title for most worst.
Well Mao didn't use humans for experiments, although I'm surprised that Mao was responsible for millions of deaths.
He most certainly was, and very directly. As for experiments, he didn't use people for medical experiments in the same way units of the Japanese and German militaries did in WWII, sure. But he did use people in social and economic experiments that, as has been said, killed millions.
Xpace above said quite rightly that if you look at the human tragedy that makes up these numbers, it doesn't seem like a statistic anymore. Fascism is not an issue anymore, but people got the point when the point was needed: for example, it is now regarded that natural selection applied to humans is a dangerous game and radical totalitarian politics are something to avoid lest they bring more human tragedy. That said, the only reason we "know" these things is because we remember what they led to. Nationalism and religious fundamentalism need to die similar deaths to fascism, and our world will be a much safer place.
As for the article, it appears to mix up the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing. The forced removal and transportation of large populations is ethnic cleansing, and ethnic-focused genocide is also ethnic cleansing. However, forced removal and transportation is not genocide, and as is common from biased sources such as the US Holocaust Memorial, statistics and facts are warped by this bias. The genocide is no worse than we thought it was, it is exactly as bad as we already knew it was and there is no more action to be taken against its perpetrators that has not already been taken. The outrage of Western democracies went its course half a century ago.
As for those saying "holocaust deniers" are on the rise, I'd love to see something supporting that. Keep in mind claiming that the numbers of holocaust victims was lower than currently believed is not really holocaust denial, it's just revisionist history.
This seems utterly irrelevant. Yes, we get it. Nazi regime in Germany did lots of nasty things. How long can one moan about it tho. And dragging some 90 y old people to court? Pfff.
Maybe we need to moan about it long enough to remember to not do that kind of shit again. Seeing how racist/extremist political parties are starting to raise in europe again because of economical crisis and people being generally stupid, I think too much reminding is better than too little.
I'm reading a trilogy of whodunits (? that's what google translate told me, but it sounds strange :D a detective story would be more simple I guess)/thrillers taking place in Berlin and Germany before, during and after WWII. The main character is an ex police officer that had to leave the police because of what the nazis were asking them to do, then became a private detective. The point of vue of a guy that was against the nazi policy is quite interesting, and I really liked the novels so far. I guess if you're interested in the WWII period and like detective stories you should read them. It's historically exact as far as I know, and the adventures of the character bring him to a lot of different places (Deaths camps, war front, killing squads, etc) that are described in all their horror. The character is also very cynic and generally funny.
The first tome is called "Berlin Noir", by Philip Kerr.
Ive watched a few of those holocaust denial speeches and 'documentarys'. While being far from convincing, the people making them are not neo nazis.
The reason I watched those videos in the first place was because I had heard all the awful things about them (holocaust deniers), like in this thread, and wanted to know what their deal was. They might be conspiritards, but theyre pretty quick to denounce nazism and racism.
Theres not many IDEAS out there that can LITERALLY get you in TROUBLE. In some countrys you can go to jail for expressing holocaust denial. Thats a pretty interesting cultural phenomenon. What other idea could land you in prison?
On March 03 2013 22:45 Nimix wrote: I'm reading a trilogy of whodunits (? that's what google translate told me, but it sounds strange :D a detective story would be more simple I guess)/thrillers taking place in Berlin and Germany before, during and after WWII. The main character is an ex police officer that had to leave the police because of what the nazis were asking them to do, then became a private detective. The point of vue of a guy that was against the nazi policy is quite interesting, and I really liked the novels so far. I guess if you're interested in the WWII period and like detective stories you should read them. It's historically exact as far as I know, and the adventures of the character bring him to a lot of different places (Deaths camps, war front, killing squads, etc) that are described in all their horror. The character is also very cynic and generally funny.
The first tome is called "Berlin Noir", by Philip Kerr.
Don't think one could just look at death camps, war fronts and killing squads and get away with it alive. What you're reading is most probably fiction.
Despite how horrible the holocaust was, I honestly think that there's too much focus on it - at least in the education that I've gone through. By this I don't mean to make it out to be "not as bad" or anything like that, but rather the fact that the holocaust is not in any way unique, nor is it by far the worst instance of its kind (people here all know about the holocaust but don't know anything about other similar cases, that's what I'm critizicing).
As for it being worse than we knew before, at some point the numbers lose their meaning. I feel, like some others in this thread, that it already had reached the "top level" of atrocities.
Perhaps the most significant contribution of these numbers is the implication they carry for the manner in which the shoa, other killings and forced labour programs happened. A larger number of places involved in the atrocities suggests a larger number of people committing them. Millions of people cannot be gathered, transported, be put to forced labour or killed by just a handful. In that respect, it shares the blame. That almost all of those involved are dead now doesn't alter the importance, in my opinion, it just emphasizes the proportions of the tragedy of the shoa.
It was more than just a couple of nazis running wild, the army and paramilitary forces were in on it, railroads were in on it, industry, and very many ordinary citizens. The dutch police force were in many instances actively helping out, dutch citizens too. I don't know too much about other countries so I'll not mention them, but England and America didn't hand out as many visa as were necessary; from 1933 to 1939, the years before the war, there were many possibilities for jews and others to escape, if only they had gotten visa. Other countries didn't exactly welcome Germany's refugees either.
After the war, people from the concentration camps were rounded up in camps for 'displaced persons', by the allies. They couldn't go back, their houses had been 'reposessed', large parts of their families had often been killed, how could they go back to cities and villages that had expulsed them, still hated them?
So that is why the zionist movement, the movement advocating a jewish homeland in the then mandate state of Palestine, which had been gaining momentum since the late 19th century, was such a politically welcome solution. The culpability of the Western world deflected on the levantine arabs, creating a temporary solution, pushing the problem from Europe to the Middle East. Where it lay festering, and still is.
And part of the 'holocaust denial' in Western Europe is attributable to the Israel situation; immigrant people and those with families originally from the arabic speaking regions side with the populist islamic media and do not look favourably upon history's concensus with regard to the shoa. Which would of course be less if we (Dutchies) weren't as racist as we are, and the economical position of certain minorities would be better.
Look at this tangle of thorns...
PS: Despite the number of Germans fed up with their history classes being filled for a large part with the second world war, I'd like to commend the German people for their unique level of introspection.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Poland has the highest number of neonazis in active political parties than any other nation, far more than Germany.
Anyway, I don't really see how this is a surprise, it's not talking about new concentration or extermination camps, but forced labour ones which we knew existed anyway. I remember reading about the prisoners who made the V2 rockets and how 12,000 of them died over the course of the war just in their production. It's awful yes but it's not quite the same as the extermination camps, and I'm pretty sure we knew about them anyway, just not the exact numbers.
The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi
On March 03 2013 20:13 honkeybeef wrote: Heil Hitler!
-edit: The holocaust is always exaggerated--christian whites want to believe there is something evil they must stand against. When really the Germans were the victims; how else were they supposed to respond to political and economic pressure. The Jews were simply hoarding all the money and the Germans needed some. Serves the dirty jews right!
User was banned for this post.
That escalated quickly..
It's interesting when you actually read some of the holocaust deniers reports though, for instance a prominent one (the guy imprisioned in Austria) was the same man who found that the Hitler diaries were frauds whereas everyone else thought them real, he was a leading historian on the Holocaust. I think it's as dangerous to simply throw these people away for questioning it in jail as it is to simply deny the event.
On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote: The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi
Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust.
On March 03 2013 22:29 CoR wrote: making news every few years about how much more worse it was then it was used to be, and reduce the death of allied bombing in dresden vs civilians when war was pretty much over from 600.000 to 20.000 ...
jaeh it was the worst part in the last century it was bad and all nazis are idiots but come on ... thats aint objective ... both sides killed alot, nazis was unhumans and killed alot civilians in camps we all know no reason to make every year a new study after 70 years
On March 03 2013 19:53 KAkos MAgos wrote: the winners write the histroy never forget that.
There are no winners in war. lol.
not from the humanity point, but for sure from the point of strategic, allied won and so they did nothing bad like stalin killed in his time more people then hitler never got that image because he "won"
overall not our lightest century
Nice to see that you haven't changed a thing in the past years. Still contacts to Phoenix? Getting tired of the Dresden arguments coming from the NPD. Tssss.
On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote: The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi
Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust.
Why should current political circumstances have ANY relevence in the discussion? We are talking about historical facts.
Just because disingenious people use something for political gain doesnt change its truth value.
If I say "2+2 = 4 because the Jews are evil". It doesnt mean 2 + 2 isnt 4.
I don't understand the chain of logic behind the argument about Jews running the media, thus the holocaust is a lie.
I don't doubt that every historian is at least a little biased and it's more than probable that some of the numbers are slightly inflated due to journalist bias, but even if the numbers aren't 100 per cent accurate, there's still a huge middle terrible middle ground between accurate numbers and an utter fabrication.
how ist this interesting at all? Isn't a single Warlord in Africa a way bigger problem today? Why should we care about what happend in the past so many years ago? Yes it was bad and all but do numbers really matter?
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote: From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
It doesn't change anything. Otherwise that would be like saying that the previously thought numbers weren't as evil as it can be, and that's not something I'd like to say when millions of people died.
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote: From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems.
On March 03 2013 23:42 idonthinksobro wrote: how ist this interesting at all? Isn't a single Warlord in Africa a way bigger problem today? Why should we care about what happend in the past so many years ago? Yes it was bad and all but do numbers really matter?
Without memory, we are nothing but plants. Besides, African warlords rose for various reasons; mostly historical, territorial reasons.
If more people knew about the past, our future would be brighter.
While everything that is currently 'believed' to be true might indeed be true, it is always funny how people - don't know that genocides are at least as old as the romans (no clue while people TODAY still think it stood out in any way) - don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this. By professor always said that these numbers are usually pulled out of thin air for politcal gain. I find the instrumentalisation of this matter extremely insulting to the victims of the regiem. Another example is the so called Führerbefehl on this matter. While it is extremely likely that it was, nobody ever found proof that the Holocaust was ordered by Hitler. But well, we can just say that it's a fact, who cares about truth or science?
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote: From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems.
The people that pointed to inaccuracies were usually anti-semites or Lol-o-caust people though. I have yet t osee legitimate historians question those numbers; though I'm biased since my grandfather worked on the cia mission to uncover the numbers. The Nazis meticulously took down every single person they killed, the time, the age, gender, name (number depending on what camp), and their religion. I feel like this will definitely increase the number killed from before. According to my grandad who worked on a large campaign to find out the number killed, the Nazis hid large numbers of their sheets in castles across Germany in the waning months of the war. The missions from the CIA recovered what they believed to have been all of them, but I guess now we know that it wasn't.
On March 03 2013 23:49 sephiria wrote: - don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this.
Well, this very topic deals with said proof... but on the other hand, isn't it ironic to speak of the incorrectness of numbers, only to pull out your own, out of thin air too...?
By the way, I haven't seen anyone speak of genocides as a new phenomenon.
On March 03 2013 23:02 sjperera wrote: The rise in Holocaust denial is due to a number of factors; mostly surrounding what many believe to be the product of the Holocaust; the Jewish State of Israel. While the conflict continues, Arabs and Muslims around the world like to cling to claims of Holocaust denial to deny the Jews their right to live in the land of Israel.
Now, on the matter alone, there are a number of rights and wrongs committed on both sides... however, people want to deny the legitimacy of their enemies... it is just one of the many battlefields. As to who is spreading Holocaust denial, it is mostly Western pseudo-academics who find a rich home for their messages in mostly Islamic countries. All the theories about Jews in the Muslim world are basically Western anti-semitic literature... often converted to native tongues by government agencies. Iran for example has even recently published documents such as the Priory of Sion in Farsi
Thank you. I was actually surprised at how many people in this thread didn't know this. It is THE most important factor when discussing the holocaust.
Why should current political circumstances have ANY relevence in the discussion? We are talking about historical facts.
Just because disingenious people use something for political gain doesnt change its truth value.
If I say "2+2 = 4 because the Jews are evil". It doesnt mean 2 + 2 isnt 4.
Because the situation is complex and really depends on how you approach the matter. Somebody wrote "history is written by victors" and that's true in some regards, even though it's highly dangerous and easy to misunderstand.
Furthermore, back in 1945 when the regime fell apart and the trials started, many Nazis argued that they did never violate any law. And that is, when it comes down to it, true from a matter-of-fact standpoint. There were no laws that prohibited genocide, nor were Jews ordinary people in the Nazi regime, but considered to be inferior. In their opinion, which is also true from a theoretical standpoint, the victors judged about the defeated regime based on no laws at all. It's quite obvious to see the allies had every right to do it and quite interesting from an academic stand point to justify why there is a law for all nations that 'must' be true. Hence numbers, reports and other material was used to justify the trials and to lay a foundation for the future. And that were facts, no boosted numbers, enough to show the world and especially the German population not affiliated with the SS what really happened.
Now, even 50 years later, people still use a lot of numbers from statistics to back up their claims to related and unrelated matters. The aforementioned NPD wants to have stricter laws on migration for example, but has a hard time to get through, because they're (in my opinion) big shitheads and quite racist. Hence, re-write and re-interprete, so you come across slightly smarter than you are and less offensive than you are. See CoR's attempt to argue: the allies bombed, killed hundreds and thousands, therefore the regime wasn't as bad as it was, because the others did similar things. This is a very popular attempt by German right wing organizations and parties to re-write their take on history. That the bombings and the holocaust are two different things doesn't matter, you use it as instrument. If your number is too small though, people will ignore it, hence boost the number or at least try to make the opposing number smaller.
Even if you do not want to back up your politics, the German (and to some extent) and the international press has the tendency to bring up war atrocities, because they sell and enable you to print stuff when you else haven't anything impressive. The German Spiegel for example writes something "brand new" on Hitler every other month, especially during summer, when the real stories are rare. The OP is a perfect example of such a story. That there were more KZs is nothing really new, you get taught that in German high schools at least two or three times. A common misunderstanding, a KZ is not just Auschwitz, there were dozens of 'rather harmless' cases in the beginning. Mere prisons with bad enviroments for the inmates, sure, but no death camps. Side effects of a strict regime and one of the signs of what was yet to come. Now add sensational words and you got an article for your next volume.
And here is the thing I don't get. You know all that stuff. You don't need to read it three or four times, at least not if you're German. You know it was a horrible genocide, the number of the camps doesn't matter. It just a perverted thing that's used to change your opinion on an utterly unrelated topic and/or to sell a product.
To what happened the re-calculated or re-defined numbers don't mean shit. Everyone already has a very good idea of what happened and articles like these don't really matter anymore. It won't prevent right wing people (see CoR and Dresden again) to make their kind of arguments, it also won't add more information to how the ordinary people think about history.
On March 03 2013 21:15 fartosis77 wrote: We're dressing up as Indians nowadays during carnaval, so give it time and we'll be able to walk around in a gestapo uniform wearing a swastika on our upper arms while drinking beer till we drop~ ;; ~
Yeah, but that's Aalst, and the people living there have always been kind of.. peculiar to say the least.
On March 03 2013 23:49 sephiria wrote: - don't know (or rather don't want to know) that the number of holocaust victims has been correcten down for decades after the second world war. As far as I am aware the numbers are still exaggerated by a factor of 20. This does not mean that it was not a crime or that there is no possibility that around 6 million died during that time but there is no proof that supports this.
Well, this very topic deals with said proof... but on the other hand, isn't it ironic to speak of the incorrectness of numbers, only to pull out your own, out of thin air too...?
By the way, I haven't seen anyone speak of genocides as a new phenomenon.
That was an educated guess based on the actual evidence ('logs' of concentration camps, the deaths that you actually CAN proof. Though to be fair I just quoted my professor on this one) I don't sell this as proof. Also the existence of more camps does not imply more deaths, if so there also was a holocaust in the USA and Canada (those had concentration camps too!)
If you read this topic you noticed that a lot of people are telling us 'how evil' this is. It's not evil, it sadly is human nature, and will be for the foreseeable future.
On March 03 2013 19:54 Le Cheque Zo wrote: From 7000 camps to 42,500? So how many victims are there actually? This changes a lot about how evil we will think the Holocaust was.
I don't think this relates to a worse conclusion, I think that what it does is giving much more credibility to past estimates of victim numbers. Without going as far as denying the Holocaust, some questioned its numbers, pointing inaccuracies and statistics deemed as "unrealistic". The uncovering of a system much bigger than previously thought resolves many of these problems.
The people that pointed to inaccuracies were usually anti-semites or Lol-o-caust people though. I have yet t osee legitimate historians question those numbers; though I'm biased since my grandfather worked on the cia mission to uncover the numbers. The Nazis meticulously took down every single person they killed, the time, the age, gender, name (number depending on what camp), and their religion. I feel like this will definitely increase the number killed from before. According to my grandad who worked on a large campaign to find out the number killed, the Nazis hid large numbers of their sheets in castles across Germany in the waning months of the war. The missions from the CIA recovered what they believed to have been all of them, but I guess now we know that it wasn't.
What? I can't quote any historians off the top of my head, but researchers in general have worked on these numbers, as in verifying their accuracy without previous expectations, simply because they hold a strong political power and are likely to be manipulated by opposing sides.
Those are rather macabre calculations (though someone has got to do it), but you can only put so many people on a train, and park so many people in a camp, etc... however, if you find out that there actually was more traffic then previously thought, it corroborates those who defend the higher estimation.
Historical research done by the CIA should be taken with a grain of salt, anyway. Nothing they do is done for humanitarian purposes. It's a "realpolitikal" institution, not a university.
This is one of the most biased articles I've read in quite a while when it comes to wording and intepretation.
"A statement saying "15 million died or were imprisoned" isn't trying to be accurate, it's trying to show you the biggest number possible for whatever reason."
Yep. If you want to know that these people have an agenda, look no further than that sentence. That is flat out intellectually dishonest wording written for effect, not for conveying factual accuracy.
In my opinion, a more plausible interpretation of these recent findings is that the theory of a well-thought out and systematic genocide of the jews by the Nazis is actually weakened. It greatly reduces the ratio of death-camps to work-camps/ghettos that we know of in existence.
At the least an accurate representation of these findings would convey these facts clearly instead of trying to sensationalize the numbers and conflating them with Auschwitz.
On March 03 2013 23:59 sephiria wrote: That was an educated guess based on the actual evidence ('logs' of concentration camps, the deaths that you actually CAN proof. Though to be fair I just quoted my professor on this one) I don't sell this as proof. Also the existence of more camps does not imply more deaths, if so there also was a holocaust in the USA and Canada (those had concentration camps too!)
If you read this topic you noticed that a lot of people are telling us 'how evil' this is. It's not evil, it sadly is human nature, and will be for the foreseeable future.
1) If you only count deaths that have been definitely proven, most dictatorships in the world haven't killed many people. Most have "disappeared" (as always). The will to take account only of the proven deaths shows a negative bias. What about lost archives? Unrecorded Einsatzgruppen activity? Administrative errors? Etc, etc.
2) Existence of more camps does not directly corroborate the number of deaths, but it informs us of the amplor of the operation, which is one of the main points of controversy regarding the historical conclusions at hand.
3) I agree that it is hardly "evil". As Hannah Arendt said, Eichmann was an ordinary man put in an extraordinary situation, and his vile deeds were only the reflection of his mediocre heart. "Evil" is an ordinary, trivial thing. Think about your neighbour: is he a terrible person? Then imagine what he could do with the strenght of a million men.
look, the holocaust was absolutely terrible, but it becomes increasingly more exploited as time goes on and it's kind of irritating because if you dispute that in favor of just wanting to hear the actual facts about it, or if you question any atrocities by the scale of them, you're a inhumane monster for doing so today. really wish it can be a matter of documented history and fact instead of a pull card
I was alright about the holocaust when I thought it was only 7000 camps, but 42500 is seriously not okay!
Meh, doesn't really change the level of cruelty much being 7k or 42.5k camps. I suppose it's for the better getting a real overview of what happened, as it will make a more convincing case against retards claiming holocaust didn't happen. Outside of that I don't see this used for anything good. It happened 60 years ago and whoever was not brought to justice back then is most likely dead by old age by now.
is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
Today there are 2063 cities in Germany. 42,500 Camps seem a lot to me. I know as a fact that on the farm of my grandparents four prisoners of war had to work on the fields - as most able German men were busy fighting the war. (As a matter of fact, my grandfather himself was imprisoned in Russia at the same time - and for two more years after the war.) Those POW's were not imprisoned nor were they under constant supervision. They were treated just like any other farmhand, except that they were not payed of course. I assume, my grandparents farm and all the other farms were each counted as a separate Nazi ghetto by the people compiling this report...
Well, let's remember stalin still had a higher body count than hitler despite hitler getting some +++ on his KD ratio
In my opinion, what's done is done. Just because we find out that the Nazi's killed a million or 5 million more jews, does that really change anything?
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
So, you don't care about your grandparents nor about the sovereignity of Estonia?
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
So, you don't care about your grandparents nor about the sovereignity of Estonia?
hes saying why are people making such a big deal of the holocaust when stalin killed more people than died in the holocaust
On March 04 2013 00:13 JKM wrote: I was alright about the holocaust when I thought it was only 7000 camps, but 42500 is seriously not okay!
Meh, doesn't really change the level of cruelty much being 7k or 42.5k camps. I suppose it's for the better getting a real overview of what happened, as it will make a more convincing case against retards claiming holocaust didn't happen. Outside of that I don't see this used for anything good. It happened 60 years ago and whoever was not brought to justice back then is most likely dead by old age by now.
You were alright at 6 million? Dumb statement is dumb
On March 04 2013 00:13 JKM wrote: I was alright about the holocaust when I thought it was only 7000 camps, but 42500 is seriously not okay!
Meh, doesn't really change the level of cruelty much being 7k or 42.5k camps. I suppose it's for the better getting a real overview of what happened, as it will make a more convincing case against retards claiming holocaust didn't happen. Outside of that I don't see this used for anything good. It happened 60 years ago and whoever was not brought to justice back then is most likely dead by old age by now.
You were alright at 6 million? Dumb statement is dumb
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
Or the decimation of the natives, the reign of Mao Zedong alone killed 7x that of the holocaust but none of it gets discussed.
It still surprises me the US celebrates columbus day. That guy was a total dick.
On March 03 2013 20:02 fartosis77 wrote: Oh well. We stomped the Indians pretty hard and no one seems to give a shit about that anymore. Give it time and it'll be forgotten, just like any other cruelties us humans have caused throughout history. RIP in piece~
Nice read though. I now know there were more camps than originally thought. This really puts things into perspective.
I don't think that's a big news. I suspect the number of people involved hasn't changed, but they did a precise research on the number of these almost countless working camps. Did they keep a differentation between the holocaust and prisoner-of-war issues?
On March 04 2013 00:35 Lockitupv2 wrote: People still care about the holocaust? The 6 million number is greatly exaggerated.
And just when exactly should we stop caring about the worst genocide in the history of mankind?
It was not the worst genocide in the history of all mankind. It was the worst genocide for a certain group. If the rest don't care, don't flood them with information about it.
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
So, you don't care about your grandparents nor about the sovereignity of Estonia?
I think he's thinking along the same terms of how slavery/racism is. Always being brought up and guilt is supposed to make a difference somehow. His reaction is that of forgive and forget, or rather, just forget. It's ok for him to ignore it, I mean he wasn't there doling the stuff and isn't directly affected by what happened. Doesn't make him less human.
On March 04 2013 00:35 Lockitupv2 wrote: People still care about the holocaust? The 6 million number is greatly exaggerated.
And just when exactly should we stop caring about the worst genocide in the history of mankind?
It was not the worst genocide in the history of all mankind. It was the worst genocide for a certain group. If the rest don't care, don't flood them with information about it.
It's not even close to the worst genoicide in all of mankind lol
People are comparing the holocaust to the things that Mao or Stalin did or any other genocide or whatever. But they overlook the prime detail. WW2 hit the western countries and it was done to 'us'. Stuff that happens somewhere else or what 'we' did to other people are considered not to be as big a deal. Which isn't weird but it is wrong.
I often wonder what the history books would say about the US Japanese internment camps if the Germans had won?
Either way, an interesting increase. I'll have to look up this study and see the criteria they were using.
Note to everyone going, "It's so much worse than we thought!" no it's not. It simply suggests the sort of logistics involved in organizing the operation. It's an ornamental fact to the same number of human deaths and the same level of human suffering.
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
So, you don't care about your grandparents nor about the sovereignity of Estonia?
hes saying why are people making such a big deal of the holocaust when stalin killed more people than died in the holocaust
He started by saying he did not care. In the end, he replied to himself : just like him, most people care only about themselves, and about their own history. Actually, no, cross that: most people only care about the present, their own present.
Outside of the european sphere, people don't care as much about the Holocaust. Chinese people are obsessed with Nankin, native Americans are obssessed with the Trail of Tears. Because, just like Noonius, egocentrism and ethnocentrism are the ruling trends.
It's also weird to say that he doesn't care about something that happened 70 years ago, and then say that he cares about Stalin's purges. The trials of Moscow were held 77 years ago! By Noonius' own standards, he shouldn't care, nor should he care about what his grandparents went through, and nor should I.
Why Israël? Why Palestine? Why Tchetchenia? Why Kosovo? Why Afghanistan? Because of what happened a long time ago, because of things most onlookers don't care about, too busy playing games and going about their innocent lives.
Unreal that they can discover new things about this huge event in history o _ O sad to hear of course, I wonder what else history had wrong? sigh I wish we could uncover good things instead of sad ones.
meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
On March 04 2013 00:47 Confuse wrote: Unreal that they can discover new things about this huge event in history o _ O sad to hear of course, I wonder what else history had wrong? sigh I wish we could uncover good things instead of sad ones.
The thing with the Holocaust is that it was so massive in scope and so brutal that a lot of people didn't want to look, at all - as evidenced (at least somewhat) by those who actively deny that the Holocaust ever happened (as told by history teachers). Most likely, what history says about genocides is usually incorrect; because it'll be in those responsible's best interests to hide as much about the event as possible.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? but no, hitler is the devil...
So, what you're saying is that because "the westerners" were bad, we cannot bring light to someone else who was also bad?
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
There's an interesting comment made by a Dutch guy (historian? journalist? can't remember) who said that the Dutch try to keep their idealized version of WW2 memory ("evil Germans!") alive (lots of shit about it on TV and in cinemas) to make everyone forget that the Dutch weren't much better. Many Dutch people helped the Germans, that's a memory they want to erase from the collective (un)conscious.
On March 03 2013 19:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: there might be one or two criminals of the nazi regime who are still not found, still alive, and still not punished. I don't think moving heaven and earth to track down those 95+ year olds is really smart prioritizing though.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
It's not about justice, it's about vengeance, silly.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
Any evidence of anything you just said (for instance the indian camps being worse then nazi concentration camps). The quick answer is, likely not, but im interested.
Also burning holy grounds to build churches =/= exterminating millions of people based on ethnic origin.
Please do, however, keep spewing bullshit and calling it a plausible theory of events.
ALSO (edit) No one said slavery wasn't equally as terrible or worse, this is arguing apples and oranges, can't both things be horrific? One is just a bit more easily recognizable because its 30 years 6 million (looks like more) people where slavery was drawn out and, while horrendously cruel, it was around for thousands of years and wasn't so abrupt in our minds.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
Just sayin' but... I do, but India has not been protected by the U.S and European superpowers for the last 60 years. Yes, but we got Starbucks now! And after the countries got independence, the U.S and european countries offered them extremely shitty deals to 'rebuild' after their struggles where what really was accomplished was an inequality that has been increasing ever since. Yes However, that does not mean Hitler's and the Nazi german movement was not a horrible event and it should not be understood. The problem(I hope) you are trying to point out is not one of making hierarchies of crimes against humanity but rather of representation and recognition of them. The spanish crown has not apologised and will most likely never will for their crimes against America's indigenous peoples. Great Britain has not... you get the drill. The politics of representation deem some crimes more representable than others. Get into alternative media or politics if you wish to do something about it! :D
On March 04 2013 00:47 Confuse wrote: Unreal that they can discover new things about this huge event in history o _ O sad to hear of course, I wonder what else history had wrong? sigh I wish we could uncover good things instead of sad ones.
It's not discovering new things, it's quantifying already known things.
Survivors have already said (and it's quoted in the article) that they were moved from various different camps to other camps and ghettos.
This is just saying how many there were, and where they were, and includes tiny ones with as few as 10 people, which it wouldn't surprise me to find out would make up most of the increase (personal slaves, rather than "camps").
"30,000 slave labor camps"
"But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her. "
It doesn't make it worse in a "what happened to the people involved" sense. It makes it worse in the "most people would have known what was going on because it was everywhere" sense, but then they probably knew what was going on anyway.
Would be interesting to find out why they thought there would only be 7,000 sites though, given that based on Google, other people 10+ years ago were already throwing around 15,000 as a figure.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
Any evidence of anything you just said (for instance the indian camps being worse then nazi concentration camps). The quick answer is, likely not, but im interested.
yes. there is. i'll give you a couple of links later today
1. Nothing wrong in examining old data and making sure we get everything right. There is no point in arguing "why don't they work on this genocide instead?". I'm sure there's other historians that work with those as well.
2. We should care about the whole human history, especially the gruesome parts of it to remember what we as "intelligent" human beings are capable of and learn from the past.
3. Thanks for posting this interesting piece of information. The more we know about these things, the better we should beware of letting such things happen again. May the dead rest in peace and may we respect them by learning from the past.
There is a lot of shit going on at the present, there was a lot lot more shit going on throughout history. If you paint all the events down as circles onto a map. The radius is the amount of people being killed and the "brightness" it shines with states the amount of attention it recieves.
there is pretty much one event which outshines anything: 1933-45. No matter how many people were killed in any other conflict/genocide, people will pay attention to the years of 1933-45. I am nowhere near the right flank of the political system, but I somehow have the feeling that a lot of ppl have the desire to keep the brightness of this event as high as possible as they seem to gain something of it. May it be a tool to pressure germany or to gain financial benefit.
I seriously dont feel responsible, I seriously dont believe those years should ever be forgotten, but I cant stand the constant "you are guilty" attitude of many ppl anymore and it annoys me.
Edit: I dont want to say, look at other stuff instead, I want to express, look at other stuff ALSO. Some events thorughout history may be worth enough to be looked into and to be reflected on.
On March 04 2013 00:16 Noonius wrote: is it wrong of me not to actually care? And I really don't care about something that happened odd 70 years ago. Mainly because it's constantly being brought up, probably just to freshen our memories and milk it for the guilt. No one really talks about the purges of Stalin to the same extent and the millions who died in gulags. Hell, my grandparents were sent to a gulag
Eddie says it in quite the humourous way.
I think because of the way it was done. A lot of the things Hitler did were things other western nations did aswell you know? Industry, socialism, modernizing society, and even his unorthodox rise through politics made it strike a lot closer to home when things went avry.
Whereas Russia was trying this new thing called communism so naturally this kind of murdering would be expected. It's not that we don't care its just that we can't really relate to it in the same way we do Germany.
On March 04 2013 00:47 Confuse wrote: Unreal that they can discover new things about this huge event in history o _ O sad to hear of course, I wonder what else history had wrong? sigh I wish we could uncover good things instead of sad ones.
It's not discovering new things, it's quantifying already known things.
Survivors have already said (and it's quoted in the article) that they were moved from various different camps to other camps and ghettos.
This is just saying how many there were, and where they were, and includes tiny ones with as few as 10 people, which it wouldn't surprise me to find out would make up most of the increase (personal slaves, rather than "camps").
"30,000 slave labor camps"
"But as few as a dozen prisoners worked at one of the smallest camps, the München-Schwabing site in Germany. Small groups of prisoners were sent there from the Dachau concentration camp under armed guard. They were reportedly whipped and ordered to do manual labor at the home of a fervent Nazi patron known as “Sister Pia,” cleaning her house, tending her garden and even building children’s toys for her. "
It doesn't make it worse in a "what happened to the people involved" sense. It makes it worse in the "most people would have known what was going on because it was everywhere" sense, but then they probably knew what was going on anyway.
Would be interesting to find out why they thought there would only be 7,000 sites though, given that based on Google, other people 10+ years ago were already throwing around 15,000 as a figure.
Exactly. This research doesn't add anything to the "Holocaust Bad." narrative.
I'm personally sick of the inordinate amount of guilt that gets piled on over the Holocaust, even today. No one alive (nearly no one) committed, or had a crime committed against them. Let it go. Remember the history, leave the emotions in the dust.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
There's an interesting comment made by a Dutch guy (historian? journalist? can't remember) who said that the Dutch try to keep their idealized version of WW2 memory ("evil Germans!") alive (lots of shit about it on TV and in cinemas) to make everyone forget that the Dutch weren't much better. Many Dutch people helped the Germans, that's a memory they want to erase from the collective (un)conscious.
that is what i am talking about. it is just some more propaganda. nothing else. i even saw a "new" documentary (it wasn't new it was just digitally coloured and it got a new narration) where the russian world war 2 soldiers were depicted as cold blooded rapists and murderers. what? and not a single mention that russians had more casualties in the war then the rest of the world combined
writing history for the sake of characterising today's policies and future plans pisses me off. it is low
Thing is that despite what most people think holocaust wasn't the biggest genocide in human history, it's just the most known thanks to polital correctness and best documentation. Nazis and Hitler are like the archetypes of all evil, but how about Holodomor which brought 10 milion people dead of famine? [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor] Great leap forward with 18 - 45 milion people dead [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward[/url] Or just mass indian genocide on american land.
On March 04 2013 01:19 karpotoss wrote: Thing is that despite what most people think holocaust wasn't the biggest genocide in human history, it's just the most known thanks to polital correctness and best documentation. Nazis and Hitler are like the archetypes of all evil, but how about Holodomor which brought 10 milion people dead of famine? Great leap forward with 18 - 45 milion people dead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward Or just mass indian genocide on american land.
I think that most people know that the holocaust was not the biggest genocide. What's worse is ranking genocides based on statistics...
Are we going again on the "Holocaust was so bad" bangwagoon? 80 years passed....And u guys still picking on my country im sick and tired of it to ask for Permission to show patriotism just because something happend 80 years ago that I my Parents and even my Grandparents couldnt change. What about the killing of native Americans by White ppl? or the slavery of the Black ppl and discrimination of thoose? What about stalin killing MILLIONS of his own ppl? what about the Rape of German Woman/childs from Sowjet Soldiers in the East territorys in 45? NO one talks about this...its always Germany Holocaust Hitler...Its sickening me. idc if i get a ban warning or whatever for that thats my honest opinion. every country has his own dirty history.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
I have no idea. Maybe to sympathize with the Hitler-Regime or something? There are still idiots in this world thinking Hitler would have done mostly good things.
Ah i think Ahmadinedschad was spitting hate against Israel while saying the Holocaust was never really done against them so all of them should shut up. I think that's about it what he said, not entirely sure though.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
On March 04 2013 01:29 quaZa wrote: Are we going again on the "Holocaust was so bad" bangwagoon? 80 years passed....And u guys still picking on my country im sick and tired of it to ask for Permission to show patriotism just because something happend 80 years ago that I my Parents and even my Grandparents couldnt change. What about the killing of native Americans by White ppl? or the slavery of the Black ppl and discrimination of thoose? What about stalin killing MILLIONS of his own ppl? what about the Rape of German Woman/childs from Sowjet Soldiers in the East territorys in 45? NO one talks about this...its always Germany Holocaust Hitler...Its sickening me. idc if i get a ban warning or whatever for that thats my honest opinion. every country has his own dirty history.
I don't think you were going to get banned until you mentioned getting banned!
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
Where are the Reputations from the Allies? Bombing Dresden which was just unnecassary or Sowjet soldiers rape German woman/Childs? where are the reputation from the US for using Japan as Test for Nukes?
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
And considering WW1 reparations were finished 3 years ago...
On March 04 2013 01:29 quaZa wrote: Are we going again on the "Holocaust was so bad" bangwagoon? 80 years passed....And u guys still picking on my country im sick and tired of it to ask for Permission to show patriotism just because something happend 80 years ago that I my Parents and even my Grandparents couldnt change. What about the killing of native Americans by White ppl? or the slavery of the Black ppl and discrimination of thoose? What about stalin killing MILLIONS of his own ppl? what about the Rape of German Woman/childs from Sowjet Soldiers in the East territorys in 45? NO one talks about this...its always Germany Holocaust Hitler...Its sickening me. idc if i get a ban warning or whatever for that thats my honest opinion. every country has his own dirty history.
In fairness, this is a thread about the Holocaust. Of course there have been other genocides equally bad or worse, but that doesn't mean we cannot talk about the Holocaust or dig into it. Yes, it is the most well-known genocide of all time, which is why a lot of people automatically assume it was the worst. But nonetheless, I don't think most people blame modern-day Germans for the genocide commited 80 years ago. If they do, they're being silly.
For the record, though; you're wrong. People are talking about it. In this very thread, too.
On March 04 2013 00:51 mRpolite wrote: meh. just another western bullshit tactic to cover up how worse they were than hitler, actually did you know that british "work camps" in india had worse living condition than nazi camps? did you know how systematic was the purge of the indians in the us? or how the conquistadors not only burned south american holy grounds but they built bullshit churches on top so that the spiritual possession could never be returned to the spiritual owners? did you know that african slavery was going on for 500 years? <sarcasm> but no, hitler is the devil...
Any evidence of anything you just said (for instance the indian camps being worse then nazi concentration camps). The quick answer is, likely not, but im interested.
yes. there is. i'll give you a couple of links later today
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
I would think the same but this is from the wikipedia page
"Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory."
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
Where are the Reputations from the Allies? Bombing Dresden which was just unnecassary or Sowjet soldiers rape German woman/Childs? where are the reputation from the US for using Japan as Test for Nukes?
Almost the whole german economy was built up through funding from the US. Ever heard of something called the Marshallplan? Germany received way more money than it deserved. I'm really curious why you think a country starting the largest war in human history should even see a single penny.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
Where are the Reputations from the Allies? Bombing Dresden which was just unnecassary or Sowjet soldiers rape German woman/Childs? where are the reputation from the US for using Japan as Test for Nukes?
Typically in war people who started it unjustly dont get reperations. Thats like saying Russians should give france reperations because they defeated napoleon.....not to mention ya it is your countries fault. You cant deny that and if youre sick of it so what? Your country caused TWO of the biggst wars the world has seen, you were lucky your women only got raped as opposed to being forced into a brothel for the rest of their lives or having their babies thrown in the air and shot at. The last times germany got patriotic they killed 10million plus people just through combat alone. So excuse us if were keeping you from "getting patriotic" since history repeats itself.
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
This is dumb. Had America not dropped the bombs, they would've invaded Japan and probably more people would've died.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
I would think the same but this is from the wikipedia page
"Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory."
I'm sure many of them are not antisemitic. IMO, many conspiracy theorists are just simpletons who like to stray away from the "official story" because it makes them feel special, since they have what they believe to be privileged information.
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
This is dumb. Had America not dropped the bombs, they would've invaded Japan and probably more people would've died.
Armed people though, not civilians, women and children. It was a disgusting military move, done to cut their own losses by murdering innocents.
No one disagrees that the bombings of nagasaki and hiroshima were an unfortunate side effect of us not wanting to waste any more of us blood to finish the war. That said it isnt genocide, since we didnt keep dropping bombs or keep killing people once they surrendered. The jews were still being killed after (especially at first)peacefully following all things the germans were forcing upon them.
On March 03 2013 20:18 Le Cheque Zo wrote: where are these holocaust deniers
If i really wanted to, i could probably find some by googling. But i think i'll pass on that. Knowing german would probably help, but i think insane neonazis also exist in other countries. Note that they are definitively a very small minority here. Please don't get something like "many germans are nazis" out of this, they are not. There are a few of them, and most people really dislike them. But they do exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the people that deny the holocaust are the neonazis? Shouldn't neonazis be proud of their fuhrer and all that and praise him for his 'achievements'? I'd say the ones that deny are something else than a neonazi. More like a neoretard or something.. ;o
I would think the same but this is from the wikipedia page
"Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory."
I'm sure many of them are not antisemitic. IMO, many conspiracy theorists are just simpletons who like to stray away from the "official story" because it makes them feel special, since they have what they believe to be privileged information.
While that may be true, I'd consider assuming there's a huge Jewish conspiracy antisemitic. As much as I'd consider assuming there's a huge conspiracy by black people racist.
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
This is dumb. Had America not dropped the bombs, they would've invaded Japan and probably more people would've died.
You can't really say what would've happened otherwise. What if the US had dropped them at a less populated region? Perhaps Japan would've been impressed just as much. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were disgusting acts that can't be justified.
On March 04 2013 01:54 FromShouri wrote: No one disagrees that the bombings of nagasaki and hiroshima were an unfortunate side effect of us not wanting to waste any more of us blood to finish the war. That said it isnt genocide, since we didnt keep dropping bombs or keep killing people once they surrendered. The jews were still being killed after (especially at first)peacefully following all things the germans were forcing upon them.
So you get to target civilians if you only kill a lot of them in a short amount of time?
What you're actually saying is "I'm taught it's okay because the US did it".
On March 03 2013 20:42 HomeWorld wrote: How about the genocide committed by USA at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (between 150000–246000+ ppl killed in total) ? They only needed 2 atomic bombs.
This is dumb. Had America not dropped the bombs, they would've invaded Japan and probably more people would've died.
Correction: more Americans would have died. They didn't give a shit about killing Japanese citizens. They barely gave a shit about Japanese-Americans.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
Where are the Reputations from the Allies? Bombing Dresden which was just unnecassary or Sowjet soldiers rape German woman/Childs? where are the reputation from the US for using Japan as Test for Nukes?
Almost the whole german economy was built up through funding from the US. Ever heard of something called the Marshallplan? Germany received way more money than it deserved. I'm really curious why you think a country starting the largest war in human history should even see a single penny.
world war II was far, far, far from being the largest war in human history.
still interesting in an age where holocaust denial is on the rise ;(
I don't understand that. Holocaust denial ? People consciously argue that this never happened ? And more and more of them ? I don't even see a point in that, are they defending the nazis or something ? What would they gain if (science fiction here) the holocaust would be recognized as a lie ?
There are a lot of idiots in this world.
As much as I think holocaust denialists (?) are bunch of idiots, we live in day and age where you should question everything you are told and giving any information free pass is dangerous. However the devil is usually in the details, don't question it happened, question how did they arrive at their conclusions and what were the sources. Saying holocaust never happened is like saying the earth is flat.
Holocaust nowadays is all about interests and money. Israel in the past used to not recognize the Armenian genocide in order to maintain good relations with Turkey. However once Israel's relations with Turkey soured after the Flotilla Incident, Israel immediately recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Germany is still paying reparations to its European neighbors and Israel. We (or the UN) ousted the Palestinians from their homeland in order for the Jews to have their own country. It's time for us to move on and stop reminiscing the past.
I am pretty sure that Germany is not still paying reparations for WW2. Can you come up with any source for that? Because the only things i can find is stuff that says that West Germany paid reparations until 1949, and the east paid to the sowjets for a longer period of time.
delivering submarines for free/heavy discount to isreal could be counted as reparation.
Where are the Reputations from the Allies? Bombing Dresden which was just unnecassary or Sowjet soldiers rape German woman/Childs? where are the reputation from the US for using Japan as Test for Nukes?
Almost the whole german economy was built up through funding from the US. Ever heard of something called the Marshallplan? Germany received way more money than it deserved. I'm really curious why you think a country starting the largest war in human history should even see a single penny.
world war II was far, far, far from being the largest war in human history.
EPT
