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On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy?
Hey Sermo, do you ever wonder why you react so strongly every time a liberal doesn't engage a conservative with politeness and compromise, and yet alternatively when xDaunt and Danglars do the same you're seemingly fine with that?
It's not like xDaunt or Danglars are those masters of compromise trying to reach us in the middle, is it. Have you ever thought about why you think it's our job to fill the gap?
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On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded.
Considering that is literally what you said, I'm not sure how we are supposed to interpret any other way. You may also notice how other people are saying the same thing. Unless you're planning on going the "everyone else is wrong because I never am" route then you might want to take a step back and realise how and why you're making yourself look like a fool.
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On December 06 2017 01:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Well, you was asked for an example of a non-western culture and you responded by saying kebab and bellydancing as a muslim culture, so what you are telling us is that we are thinking too highly of you for thinking that your intention was to make yourself out as an idiot.
Specifically, I was asked for examples of good things from Muslim culture. You didn't think that I was going to highlight Muslim disdain for secular government as a good thing, did you?
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On December 06 2017 01:40 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Considering that is literally what you said, I'm not sure how we are supposed to interpret any other way. You may also notice how other people are saying the same thing. Unless you're planning on going the "everyone else is wrong because I never am" route then you might want to take a step back and realise how and why you're making yourself look like a fool.
The only people who look foolish are all of you who very clearly failed to read the question that I was asked and appreciate my answer within that context.
You guys really need to step up your game. This is very disappointing.
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On December 06 2017 01:34 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable? So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed? on the whole, no, of course i do not. i do think anyone trying to remove human rights from people are evil though, so on this particular issue, yes. do you disagree? no, i would not be looking to do that to people today, tomorrow, or twenty years ago. i’m unsure what you mean by having never changed. So the ability to be recognized by the government as in a relationship equally to others is a human right? As for the 20 years ago issue gay people didn't have the ability to marriage together and it wasn't even mentioned as a thing in the mainstream to let them. Do you think being complicit in this apparent human rights violation would have made you evil? I admit I've been beating around the bush a bit unfairly but my point is that I don't think ignorance is evil. Ignorance is not evil. Not knowing that gays are people too, and should enjoy equal rights, can be filed under ignorance if that was how you were brought up. Once people start bringing it up, however, and start challenging your viewpoint, how you respond to that matters. So if I come across someone who is purely ignorant, I would educate them all the same, but if they were to double down on their ignorance as a response, then I don't take that lightly. They need to know their position is ignorant, and if their feelings get hurt, that's really too bad. Points need to be communicated.
See you get through half of the post before you lose me on what you mean. When you challenge someone on their viewpoints its an observable phenomenon that they'll become less reasonable and try to defend their viewpoint as an attack on their self. I don't think "educate them" means what you think it means. "points need to be communicated" just sounds really combative and unhelpful.
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On December 06 2017 00:31 On_Slaught wrote:
WSJ has a live blog of the Cakeshop SCOTUS oral arguments if anyone is interested.
Wish the court put out the audio at end of day at least, not the weekend. Always have to wait.
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On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded.
Am I to interpret this as you thinking that kebabs and belly dancing are comparable to your other examples in significance, that you were intentionally trolling, or something else?
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Special prosecutor Robert Mueller zeroed in on President Donald Trump’s business dealings with Deutsche Bank AG as his investigation into alleged Russian meddling in U.S. elections widens.
Mueller issued a subpoena to Germany’s largest lender several weeks ago, forcing the bank to submit documents on its relationship with Trump and his family, according to a person briefed on the matter, who asked not to be identified because the action has not been announced.
“Deutsche Bank always cooperates with investigating authorities in all countries,” the lender said in a statement to Bloomberg Tuesday, declining to provide additional information.
Deutsche Bank for months has rebuffed calls by Democratic lawmakers to provide more transparency over the roughly $300 million Trump owed to the bank for his real estate dealings prior to becoming president. RepresentativeMaxine Waters of California and other Democrats have asked whether the bank’s loans to Trump, made years before he ran for president, were in any way connected to Russia. The bank previously rejected those demands, saying sharing client data would be illegal unless it received a formal request to do so. Trump has denied any wrongdoing.
finance.yahoo.com
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On December 06 2017 01:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Am I to interpret this as you thinking that kebabs and belly dancing are comparable to your other examples in significance, that you were intentionally trolling, or something else?
He's saying that there are no non-western (or perhaps muslim specifically, not entirely sure) good things that have a comparable significance
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On December 06 2017 01:33 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Algebra is pretty dope and Arabic world kept that flame going while Europe was figuring out how to feed itself and write books. The problem really is that the mongols and the turks burned most of those advancements away from where they are today.
But we still use the words with Arabic roots. Algebra is an Arabic word, so some of that knowledge made it out. Or all of it did and the Arab world wasn't credited.
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United States42007 Posts
On December 06 2017 01:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Well, you was asked for an example of a non-western culture and you responded by saying kebab and bellydancing as a muslim culture, so what you are telling us is that we are thinking too highly of you for thinking that your intention was to make yourself out as an idiot. Specifically, I was asked for examples of good things from Muslim culture. You didn't think that I was going to highlight Muslim disdain for secular government as a good thing, did you?
Specifically, you were asked about non-western culture.
But you're doing this whole culture war thing where the non-west is the same thing as Islam and here we are.
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On December 06 2017 01:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama
Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? Hey Sermo, do you ever wonder why you react so strongly every time a liberal doesn't engage a conservative with politeness and compromise, and yet alternatively when xDaunt and Danglars do the same you're seemingly fine with that? It's not like xDaunt or Danglars are those masters of compromise trying to reach us in the middle, is it. Have you ever thought about why you think it's our job to fill the gap?
I think its your job to fill in the gap because you pretend to be better then they are? Do you want a cookie for being a better debater while doing exactly what the people you're against are doing?
I don't react when Xdaunt and Danglers do the same because other people already do that. Even I have a point where I get off the bus (that happens to be libertarianism btw).
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On December 06 2017 01:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:40 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Well, you was asked for an example of a non-western culture and you responded by saying kebab and bellydancing as a muslim culture, so what you are telling us is that we are thinking too highly of you for thinking that your intention was to make yourself out as an idiot. Specifically, I was asked for examples of good things from Muslim culture. You didn't think that I was going to highlight Muslim disdain for secular government as a good thing, did you? Specifically, you were asked about non-western culture. But you're doing this whole culture war thing where the non-west is the same thing as Islam and here we are.
Obviously non-western cultures have no value said on a forum dedicated to organized e-sports including Starcraft, League of Legends, and DotA.
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are either xdaunt or danglars libertarians? they didn't seem like libertarians to me.
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United States42007 Posts
On December 06 2017 01:53 zlefin wrote:
are either xdaunt or danglars libertarians? they didn't seem like libertarians to me.
Wegandi is our resident libertarian.
xDaunt is a white nationalist and Danglars is just a garden variety klan member.
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On December 06 2017 01:51 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? Hey Sermo, do you ever wonder why you react so strongly every time a liberal doesn't engage a conservative with politeness and compromise, and yet alternatively when xDaunt and Danglars do the same you're seemingly fine with that? It's not like xDaunt or Danglars are those masters of compromise trying to reach us in the middle, is it. Have you ever thought about why you think it's our job to fill the gap? I think its your job to fill in the gap because you pretend to be better then they are? Do you want a cookie for being a better debater while doing exactly what the people you're against are doing?
I don't want a cookie, no. I just want you to figure out that if you're speaking about unity and your unity translates to one of the two groups not changing at all and the other meeting them in the middle, what you're looking for isn't called unity, it's called compliance. That's true when the democratic party does it to its leftwing and that's true when you do it to America.
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On December 06 2017 01:51 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:36 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:
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How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? Hey Sermo, do you ever wonder why you react so strongly every time a liberal doesn't engage a conservative with politeness and compromise, and yet alternatively when xDaunt and Danglars do the same you're seemingly fine with that? It's not like xDaunt or Danglars are those masters of compromise trying to reach us in the middle, is it. Have you ever thought about why you think it's our job to fill the gap? I think its your job to fill in the gap because you pretend to be better then they are? Do you want a cookie for being a better debater while doing exactly what the people you're against are doing? I don't react when Xdaunt and Danglers do the same because other people already do that. Even I have a point where I get off the bus (that happens to be libertarianism btw).
Meeting in the middle for productive discourse requires both sides to participate. People have given Danglars and xDaunt more than they deserve, and they've shown that they're happier with vicious, polarized discourse. They're happy to call it out as an attack on their opponents, but they don't appear interested in doing anything about it.
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On December 06 2017 01:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Am I to interpret this as you thinking that kebabs and belly dancing are comparable to your other examples in significance, that you were intentionally trolling, or something else?
I want to hear Kennedy's tone. Just based on the blog it seems like he may be leaning towards the cake owner.
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I think it is fair to point out that within the US, the removal of any single sub-culture, such as Thai, Vietnamese, Syrian, Iranian, Mexican, Peruvian, Japanese...etc...Removing any one of them would really not be too big a cultural hit just because of how many other components get tossed into our melting pot. The idea that we could just skip one of them because it is a little more disruptive than the others isn't entirely crazy.
If, for example, we were to start slowly phasing out Peruvians as American citizens, the country would do just fine.
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On December 06 2017 01:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Am I to interpret this as you thinking that kebabs and belly dancing are comparable to your other examples in significance, that you were intentionally trolling, or something else?
I don't really want to call it "trolling" because, like I previously mentioned, I'm illustrating a larger point. The point is that Western culture is superior because the answers that Western culture has provided to concepts of the individual and the state are far superior to the answers that are provided by other cultures. So when I failed to list a Muslim achievement that is comparable to the Western concept of inalienable rights, what I'm necessarily saying is that I don't value any Muslim achievement to that degree. While belly dancing is hot and kebabs are superior to burritos and hamburgers, let's get real: what's more important, social systems or what we have for lunch?
Like I have pointed out repeatedly, the root problem here is that most of y'all on the left truly don't understand the scope of culture and its impact. For this reason, you are completely blind to the fact that your very critiques of what you perceive as Western culture are grounded in Western culture itself. It doesn't take a genius to understand the implications of that statement.
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EPT
