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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values.
Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?”
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On December 05 2017 17:37 mozoku wrote:
No offense, but comparing the West and conservative Muslim countries on women's rights can't even really be fully captured in the type of "evidence" hunts is probably looking for. Nor does "marginally less rapy" really do it justice.
We're talking things like being allowed to work, drive, have sex, dress how you want, use the same door as men, legally leave the country without permission from your husband, speak loudly in public, and receive education past the age of 8. When you've got issues like those, looking for figures describing sexual harassment rates makes you feel like you're kind of missing the point. It's an order of magnitude(s) difference.
There's a lot of intrapopulation variance, of course, especially depending on what country you're in, what city you're in, etc, and the vast majority of American Muslims are probably far far on the liberal side of the spectrum among Muslims (i.e. perfectly reasonable and tolerant people). And there's definitely arguments to be made about how much of the misogyny is a product of the relative poverty of Muslim states (and what role Islam plays in that poverty) versus how much of it is due to the religion of Islam itself. I think it'd be hard to argue that the teachings of Islam that most Muslims (i.e. those that don't live in the West) receive play no role though, and I think even a lot of (most?) liberal scholars acknowledge that.
The point you're missing, is that we have laws preventing our Christians from doing a lot of that, or trying to prevent them. How many good ole boy christians would be down for some good ole hanging of the queers or stoning of the wemenz if they sleep around or aren't a virgin when they get married, if they were allowed to? Furthermore, how many muslims in America stop girls from receiving education past the age of 8 or don't allow women to drive or have sex? Is it mostly christians trying to take away the rights from women, gays, trans, and people of color? Or is it atheists, muslims, and jews? Attempting to say "but they do it worse in the middle east!" Is a bad strawman and you know it. The only reason it's worse there is that we have laws to prevent most of that, and our christians have been working very hard to dismantle those laws for a while now.
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WSJ has a live blog of the Cakeshop SCOTUS oral arguments if anyone is interested.
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On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?”
I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point?
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United States42008 Posts
Within America the strict religious group that refuse to educate girls beyond bible studies and how to be submissive to men (generally taught at the hands of her father and brothers before reaching 18) is Christianity, not Islam. It's not all Christians that do that obviously, mostly just weirdos like ATI, FLDS, IBLP, and so forth. But they still number millions. Fundamentalist patriarchal Christian cults are a serious problem within America. The abuse is so extensive that the nominal spokesmen for the movement was kind enough to write a book called "Why Did God Let It Happen?" to help girls understand that sexual abuse from her family is just a part of God's plan for them and will help prepare her for her life of sexual abuse from her husband.
If only there was some way to remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
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On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture?
My bad. Didn’t read it right.
I like belly dancing and a good kebab.
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On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab.
I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point?
No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line.
Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception.
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On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception.
If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem.
Seems like you missed the point entirely. Guess there’s nothing further to say then, it’s pretty clear you start with the presupposition that they’re evil if they don’t immediately come over to your side, especially if you go about it aggressively.
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is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts?
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On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem.
And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them.
On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts?
Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy?
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On December 06 2017 00:20 zlefin wrote:
interesting graph and progression; though i' msure there's a lot of idiots misinterpreting in dumb ways, like thinking it means the left has gone crazy leftward. rather than the reality that it's the right that's gone crazy.
people seeing what they want to see rather than carefully looking at the actual info to understand the statistics and what they really mean, ah well; pesky morons. how'd you hear about it? i hope it's not some dumbass rightists sites spreading it around as if it proves they're correct.
Not to mention 2016 kinda put the nail in the coffin for a lot of "Well the (centrist) dems are less bad" mindset. Like for awhile people would go along with moderate left or centrist views because things were working well, dems were slowly pushing things in a sort of progressive/left direction (albeit slowly and with corporate interests at the forefront), and they were successfully at least putting a bit of a stopper in the far right push.
Now after 2012, 2014, and 2016 you have a moderate/center left who not only has all the previous flaws (corporate interests first, political showmanship over real change, etc.), but they also *aren't* winning elections and letting the right run rampant. So I think you're seeing a lot of people start to decide it's not worth moderating their own views and if they aren't going to have representation that shares their views they'd much rather those view be Single Payer, more equitable income distribution, and other less 'mixed' views over what the dems have been offering.
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On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please?
What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture.
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On December 06 2017 00:57 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:20 zlefin wrote:
interesting graph and progression; though i' msure there's a lot of idiots misinterpreting in dumb ways, like thinking it means the left has gone crazy leftward. rather than the reality that it's the right that's gone crazy.
people seeing what they want to see rather than carefully looking at the actual info to understand the statistics and what they really mean, ah well; pesky morons. how'd you hear about it? i hope it's not some dumbass rightists sites spreading it around as if it proves they're correct. Not to mention 2016 kinda put the nail in the coffin for a lot of "Well the (centrist) dems are less bad" mindset. Like for awhile people would go along with moderate left or centrist views because things were working well, dems were slowly pushing things in a sort of progressive/left direction (albeit slowly and with corporate interests at the forefront), and they were successfully at least putting a bit of a stopper in the far right push. Now after 2012, 2014, and 2016 you have a moderate/center left who not only has all the previous flaws (corporate interests first, political showmanship over real change, etc.), but they also *aren't* winning elections and letting the right run rampant. So I think you're seeing a lot of people start to decide it's not worth moderating their own views and if they aren't going to have representation that shares their views they'd much rather those view be Single Payer, more equitable income distribution, and other less 'mixed' views over what the dems have been offering.
And it'll be worse in 2018 when the people who used to be center/left blame everyone on the right for trump and associate everything trump did with conservatives.
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I look forward to hearing how Mueller getting his financial documents does NOT mean he is being investigated.
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On December 06 2017 01:00 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:57 Logo wrote:On December 06 2017 00:20 zlefin wrote:
interesting graph and progression; though i' msure there's a lot of idiots misinterpreting in dumb ways, like thinking it means the left has gone crazy leftward. rather than the reality that it's the right that's gone crazy.
people seeing what they want to see rather than carefully looking at the actual info to understand the statistics and what they really mean, ah well; pesky morons. how'd you hear about it? i hope it's not some dumbass rightists sites spreading it around as if it proves they're correct. Not to mention 2016 kinda put the nail in the coffin for a lot of "Well the (centrist) dems are less bad" mindset. Like for awhile people would go along with moderate left or centrist views because things were working well, dems were slowly pushing things in a sort of progressive/left direction (albeit slowly and with corporate interests at the forefront), and they were successfully at least putting a bit of a stopper in the far right push. Now after 2012, 2014, and 2016 you have a moderate/center left who not only has all the previous flaws (corporate interests first, political showmanship over real change, etc.), but they also *aren't* winning elections and letting the right run rampant. So I think you're seeing a lot of people start to decide it's not worth moderating their own views and if they aren't going to have representation that shares their views they'd much rather those view be Single Payer, more equitable income distribution, and other less 'mixed' views over what the dems have been offering. And it'll be worse in 2018 when the people who used to be center/left blame everyone on the right for trump and associate everything trump did with conservatives.
Everything Trump has done is with conservatives (well the GOP and official conservatives, not randos who vote conservative). They vote with what he wants in something like the high 90% of the time.
They just endorsed a likely pedophile because Trump did.
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On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture.
I was looking for something comparably significant to your other examples.
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On December 06 2017 01:01 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:00 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:57 Logo wrote:On December 06 2017 00:20 zlefin wrote:
interesting graph and progression; though i' msure there's a lot of idiots misinterpreting in dumb ways, like thinking it means the left has gone crazy leftward. rather than the reality that it's the right that's gone crazy.
people seeing what they want to see rather than carefully looking at the actual info to understand the statistics and what they really mean, ah well; pesky morons. how'd you hear about it? i hope it's not some dumbass rightists sites spreading it around as if it proves they're correct. Not to mention 2016 kinda put the nail in the coffin for a lot of "Well the (centrist) dems are less bad" mindset. Like for awhile people would go along with moderate left or centrist views because things were working well, dems were slowly pushing things in a sort of progressive/left direction (albeit slowly and with corporate interests at the forefront), and they were successfully at least putting a bit of a stopper in the far right push. Now after 2012, 2014, and 2016 you have a moderate/center left who not only has all the previous flaws (corporate interests first, political showmanship over real change, etc.), but they also *aren't* winning elections and letting the right run rampant. So I think you're seeing a lot of people start to decide it's not worth moderating their own views and if they aren't going to have representation that shares their views they'd much rather those view be Single Payer, more equitable income distribution, and other less 'mixed' views over what the dems have been offering. And it'll be worse in 2018 when the people who used to be center/left blame everyone on the right for trump and associate everything trump did with conservatives. Everything Trump has done is with conservatives (well the GOP and official conservatives, not randos who vote conservative). They vote with what he wants in something like the high 90% of the time. They just endorsed a likely pedophile because Trump did.
I mean I don't want to just write ok or and? but really I didn't say that they didn't or anything.
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United States42008 Posts
On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture.
If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why.
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EPT
