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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Nearly 8,000 homes have been evacuated in southern California after ferocious winds whipped up an explosive wildfire that could soon threaten a city of more than 100,000.
The blaze broke out on Monday evening east of Santa Paula, which is about 60 miles north-west of Los Angeles. It grew to more than 100 sq km (40 sq miles) by the early hours of Tuesday, consuming vegetation that has not burned in decades, the Ventura county fire sergeant Eric Buschow said.
Evacuation orders were expanded to include homes in Ventura, a city 12 miles south-west of Santa Paula, with more than 100,000 residents.
“The fire growth is just absolutely exponential,” the Ventura county fire chief, Mark Lorenzen, said. “All that firefighters can do when we have winds like this is get out ahead, evacuate people, and protect structures.”
Thomas Aquinas college, which has about 350 students, has also been evacuated, with students going to their own homes or to those of faculty and staff, the college said in a statement.
One person was killed in a car accident associated with the fire, officials said. They gave no further details. At least two structures have burned so far, sheriff’s officials said.
Winds exceeding 40mph and gusts of more than 60mph have been reported in the area and were expected to continue, the National Weather Service said.
Firefighters and aircraft from neighbouring Los Angeles and Santa Barbara counties were pouring in to help, though the darkness and winds forced the grounding of planes late on Monday night.
Southern California Edison said nearly 180,000 customers in the Ventura county area were without service.
Source
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On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why.
Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you.
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On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy?
no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable?
On December 06 2017 01:12 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:09 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:06 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why. Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you. Kebab and bellydancing cannot seriously represent xDaunt's understanding of "Muslim culture". It's a troll response. I know many Muslims and not one of them has ever invited me to eat kebabs and bellydance together. What's your personal opinion on why there's so little pork kebab?
lol quality shit posting
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United States43991 Posts
On December 06 2017 01:06 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why. Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you.
Kebab and bellydancing cannot seriously represent xDaunt's understanding of "Muslim culture". It's a troll response.
I know many Muslims and not one of them has ever invited me to eat kebabs and bellydance together.
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On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama
Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable?
Just a little disgust does not account for the continued fighting against equal rights for gays.
If you just kinda don't like the idea of 2 dudes (or women) doing it then you have no problem with it so long as they don't do it in front of your face. Them being allowed to marry will not effect you in any way, shape or form.
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On December 06 2017 01:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:06 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers....
[quote]
You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument.
[quote]
Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why. Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you. Kebab and bellydancing cannot seriously represent xDaunt's understanding of "Muslim culture". It's a troll response. I know many Muslims and not one of them has ever invited me to eat kebabs and bellydance together.
What's your personal opinion on why there's so little pork kebab?
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On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama
Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable?
So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed?
On December 06 2017 01:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:06 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers....
[quote]
You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument.
[quote]
Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why. Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you. Kebab and bellydancing cannot seriously represent xDaunt's understanding of "Muslim culture". It's a troll response. I know many Muslims and not one of them has ever invited me to eat kebabs and bellydance together.
Did you think I didn't understand xdaunt from my post saying that people didn't understand you? Or is this a werid "what I should have said so here you go"?
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On December 06 2017 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. I was looking for something comparably significant to your other examples.
What's wrong with using Western ideas regarding the individual and the role of the state for issues of governance and delegating to Muslim culture the instruction of females on how to properly shake their asses?
My silliness aside, I hope you can see the larger point that I'm illustrating. Cultural differences exist and they matter. The problem so many people on the Left is that they have lost sight of what Western culture really is and why it is important. For that reason, they don't appreciate it and readily equivocate on the issue of whether it is "superior" to the alternatives.
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On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable? So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed?
on the whole, no, of course i do not. i do think anyone trying to remove human rights from people are evil though, so on this particular issue, yes. do you disagree?
no, i would not be looking to do that to people today, tomorrow, or twenty years ago. i’m unsure what you mean by having never changed.
On December 06 2017 01:14 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? My bad. Didn’t read it right. I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. I was looking for something comparably significant to your other examples. What's wrong with using Western ideas regarding the individual and the role of the state for issues of governance and delegating to Muslim culture the instruction of females on how to properly shake their asses? My silliness aside, I hope you can see the larger point that I'm illustrating. Cultural differences exist and they matter. The problem so many people on the Left is that they have lost sight of what Western culture really is and why it is important. For that reason, they don't appreciate it and readily equivocate on the issue of whether it is "superior" to the alternatives.
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is
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Not to make you seem uncultured but kebab and bellydancing aren't products of Muslim culture. It's like saying fish and chips and maypole dancing are products of a Christian culture.
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United States43991 Posts
On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:09 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:06 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:04 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 00:59 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 00:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 06 2017 00:42 xDaunt wrote:
I like belly dancing and a good kebab. I understand you didn't read it right the first time, but I'd still like an answer, please? What? I gave you an answer. I noted that socialism/communism are bad products of Western culture in my original post. In my second post, I noted that kebabs and belly dancing are good products of Muslim culture. If ever you're curious why people treat you the way they do, this shit is why. Yeah you tell him kwark. Don't feel the need to elaborate or explain yourself I'm sure we're on all on the same page and understand you completely. Its the other peoples fault that they don't understand you. Kebab and bellydancing cannot seriously represent xDaunt's understanding of "Muslim culture". It's a troll response. I know many Muslims and not one of them has ever invited me to eat kebabs and bellydance together. Did you think I didn't understand xdaunt from my post saying that people didn't understand you? Or is this a werid "what I should have said so here you go"?
I misunderstood who you thought wasn't elaborating.
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On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority? I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities. I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable? So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed? on the whole, no, of course i do not. i do think anyone trying to remove human rights from people are evil though, so on this particular issue, yes. do you disagree? no, i would not be looking to do that to people today, tomorrow, or twenty years ago. i’m unsure what you mean by having never changed.
So the ability to be recognized by the government as in a relationship equally to others is a human right?
As for the 20 years ago issue gay people didn't have the ability to marriage together and it wasn't even mentioned as a thing in the mainstream to let them. Do you think being complicit in this apparent human rights violation would have made you evil?
I admit I've been beating around the bush a bit unfairly but my point is that I don't think ignorance is evil.
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On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is
That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have.
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United States43991 Posts
On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have.
You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing.
Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it.
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Algebra is pretty dope and Arabic world kept that flame going while Europe was figuring out how to feed itself and write books.
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On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it.
The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded.
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On December 06 2017 01:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities.
I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable? So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed? on the whole, no, of course i do not. i do think anyone trying to remove human rights from people are evil though, so on this particular issue, yes. do you disagree? no, i would not be looking to do that to people today, tomorrow, or twenty years ago. i’m unsure what you mean by having never changed. So the ability to be recognized by the government as in a relationship equally to others is a human right? As for the 20 years ago issue gay people didn't have the ability to marriage togeather and it wasn't even mentioned as a thing in the mainstream to let them. Do you think being complicit in this apparent human rights violation would have made you evil?
i don’t think the recognition from the government is the key here, but yes. and i think the collective world agrees, but obviously it’s debatable. but certainly if everyone but gay people
may freely do it, it is pretty clearly a human right.
you’re using complicit pretty loosely here. i think people in opposition to equality and people who just ‘don’t care’ are not equal, but yes both evil. i don’t think i’ve ever been in either camp. Marriage Equality not being a popular headline doesn’t make it a non issue. if you asked someone twenty years ago directly if they supported marriage equality and got an answer other than ‘yes’, the answer to your question is clear. and granted i was just a child of 10 back then, my answer would have been yes. i don’t imagine that’s a crazy thing to put out there.
I’m a little lost by all your questions and if there’s a point? not that i mind ‘the sound of my own voice.’ and i’m curious if you disagree, and to which degree a person is or isn’t evil when in opposition.
sorry, i missed your edit. i agree for sure, and like i said, it not being a popular headline doesn’t mean people can’t form an opinion. directly being asked a question you haven’t been asked before will still result in an answer.
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On December 06 2017 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Algebra is pretty dope and Arabic world kept that flame going while Europe was figuring out how to feed itself and write books.
The problem really is that the mongols and the turks burned most of those advancements away from where they are today.
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On December 06 2017 01:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 01:13 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 01:07 brian wrote:On December 06 2017 00:56 Sermokala wrote:On December 06 2017 00:51 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:46 LegalLord wrote:On December 06 2017 00:34 NewSunshine wrote:On December 06 2017 00:24 LegalLord wrote:On December 05 2017 17:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities.
I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values. Holy shit that is about the most disingenuous false equivalency I’ve seen around here in months. Few people even take that “culture total war” view and the only one who seems to prominently do so (xDaunt) has said in the past things like “opposing gay rights doesn’t mean we want to murder them in the streets” (in response to Orlando or some Trump speech on it, I don’t remember). That’s about as good a comparison as saying, “you’re an evil person, why don’t you worship Darkseid and Palpatine and work on building a world in their style?” I mean, is anyone legitimately wondering why people don't take well to "Well, I consider gays to be basically insects, but I'm not gonna go around stomping on them for fun"? Does that really deserve the charity required for nuance at that point? No, there is no surprise that people known for hyperbole and “if you don’t take my political view on certain issues then you’re evil and not my friend” stances make utterly reductionist comparisons without even thinking that it might be a bit over the line. It’s all for the greater good (which at this point seems to be “doing anything and everything to stop Trump no matter the cost”) so of course said people won’t have any room for nuance or for thinking it might be over the line. Most people I know who oppose gay marriage don’t consider gays to be “basically insects.” Some could even be convinced to support the idea even if they don’t particularly like it. I don’t agree with them on that issue but it’s perhaps worth taking a look in a mirror and seeing that you are more responsible than they are for that perception. If I have a discussion with someone wherein I learn they oppose gay rights, and they double down on it because I said some not nice things to them, that is their problem, not mine. The problem to begin with is the other person not treating gay people like human beings. The fact that they're not happy being called out on it is not my fucking problem. And people like you wonder why the nation is polarized as ever. Your attitude on things like this is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now. You don't even presume to want to make the world better or change peoples views you just want to treat people worse because you disagree with them. On December 06 2017 00:56 brian wrote:
is there a line between disrespecting the human rights of people and being evil? are we looking to set up some sort of 1-10 evil scale and decide where in the line ‘true evil’ starts? Do you think the only reason why people oppose gay marriage is because they hate gays and want gays to be less happy? no? is there a line between ‘just a little disgust’ and ‘hate’ that makes the end result any different? is either acceptable? So you see the world as a set of absolutes were either they agree with you or they are evil? Do you think you would have been evil 20 years ago and that never changed? on the whole, no, of course i do not. i do think anyone trying to remove human rights from people are evil though, so on this particular issue, yes. do you disagree? no, i would not be looking to do that to people today, tomorrow, or twenty years ago. i’m unsure what you mean by having never changed. So the ability to be recognized by the government as in a relationship equally to others is a human right? As for the 20 years ago issue gay people didn't have the ability to marriage together and it wasn't even mentioned as a thing in the mainstream to let them. Do you think being complicit in this apparent human rights violation would have made you evil? I admit I've been beating around the bush a bit unfairly but my point is that I don't think ignorance is evil.
Ignorance is not evil. Not knowing that gays are people too, and should enjoy equal rights, can be filed under ignorance if that was how you were brought up. Once people start bringing it up, however, and start challenging your viewpoint, how you respond to that matters. So if I come across someone who is purely ignorant, I would educate them all the same, but if they were to double down on their ignorance as a response, then I don't take that lightly. They need to know their position is ignorant, and if their feelings get hurt, that's really too bad. Points need to be communicated.
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On December 06 2017 01:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 01:27 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 01:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 06 2017 01:17 brian wrote:
alternatively, i think on a very basic level we disagree on what Western Culture is That's probably correct, but the reason for that disagreement is that none of you who are disagreeing with me on this stuff -- again, aside from Igne -- has demonstrated that you fully grasp what culture is, much less shown the ability to articulate a definition of Western culture as I have. You can't insist that you have a unique and complete grasp on what culture is while also insisting that Muslim culture is kebab and bellydancing. Or at least you can, but people will think you're a fucking idiot for doing it. The only people who think that I believe that Muslim culture is limited to kebabs and bellydancing are true idiots. Take another look at what I was asked and how I responded. Well, you was asked for an example of a non-western culture and you responded by saying kebab and bellydancing as a muslim culture, so what you are telling us is that we are thinking too highly of you for thinking that your intention was to make yourself out as an idiot.
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