US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9429

On December 06 2017 01:55 Nebuchad wrote:


I don't want a cookie, no. I just want you to figure out that if you're speaking about unity and your unity translates to one of the two groups not changing at all and the other meeting them in the middle, what you're looking for isn't called unity, it's called compliance. That's true when the democratic party does it to its leftwing and that's true when you do it to America.

On December 06 2017 01:42 xDaunt wrote:

The only people who look foolish are all of you who very clearly failed to read the question that I was asked and appreciate my answer within that context.

You guys really need to step up your game. This is very disappointing.

On December 06 2017 01:58 NewSunshine wrote:

Meeting in the middle for productive discourse requires both sides to participate. People have given Danglars and xDaunt more than they deserve, and they've shown that they're happier with vicious, polarized discourse. They're happy to call it out as an attack on their opponents, but they don't appear interested in doing anything about it.

On December 06 2017 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:
I think it is fair to point out that within the US, the removal of any single sub-culture, such as Thai, Vietnamese, Syrian, Iranian, Mexican, Peruvian, Japanese...etc...Removing any one of them would really not be too big a cultural hit just because of how many other components get tossed into our melting pot. The idea that we could just skip one of them because it is a little more disruptive than the others isn't entirely crazy.

If, for example, we were to start slowly phasing out Peruvians as American citizens, the country would do just fine.

On December 06 2017 02:01 xDaunt wrote:

I don't really want to call it "trolling" because, like I previously mentioned, I'm illustrating a larger point. The point is that Western culture is superior because the answers that Western culture has provided to concepts of the individual and the state are far superior to the answers that are provided by other cultures. So when I failed to list a Muslim achievement that is comparable to the Western concept of inalienable rights, what I'm necessarily saying is that I don't value any Muslim achievement to that degree. While belly dancing is hot and kebabs are superior to burritos and hamburgers, let's get real: what's more important, social systems or what we have for lunch?

Like I have pointed out repeatedly, the root problem here is that most of y'all on the left truly don't understand the scope of culture and its impact. For this reason, you are completely blind to the fact that your very critiques of what you perceive as Western culture are grounded in Western culture itself. It doesn't take a genius to understand the implications of that statement.

On December 06 2017 02:01 xDaunt wrote:

I don't really want to call it "trolling" because, like I previously mentioned, I'm illustrating a larger point. The point is that Western culture is superior because the answers that Western culture has provided to concepts of the individual and the state are far superior to the answers that are provided by other cultures. So when I failed to list a Muslim achievement that is comparable to the Western concept of inalienable rights, what I'm necessarily saying is that I don't value any Muslim achievement to that degree. While belly dancing is hot and kebabs are superior to burritos and hamburgers, let's get real: what's more important, social systems or what we have for lunch?

Like I have pointed out repeatedly, the root problem here is that most of y'all on the left truly don't understand the scope of culture and its impact. For this reason, you are completely blind to the fact that your very critiques of what you perceive as Western culture are grounded in Western culture itself. It doesn't take a genius to understand the implications of that statement.

On December 06 2017 02:07 Sermokala wrote:

No one is asking for you to meet in the middle. I'm just saying if you want to act superior to them you should act superior to them. You've done nothing in the thread other then perpetuate vicious polarized discourse so you're the last person to complain about others wanting you to meet in the middle.

On December 06 2017 02:07 Excludos wrote:


There's a saying for exactly this you know.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Sure it's a slippery slope argument, but it is also equally valid. You can't go after only one subculture "because I don't like them and I'm not in it", because the very next time you are.

On December 06 2017 02:07 Sermokala wrote:

No one is asking for you to meet in the middle. I'm just saying if you want to act superior to them you should act superior to them. You've done nothing in the thread other then perpetuate vicious polarized discourse so you're the last person to complain about others wanting you to meet in the middle.

On December 06 2017 02:04 Sermokala wrote:

See I don't see america like this the democratic party has steadily been moving right in the past few decades which has caused the republicans to more even more right in response. They didn't do that out of compliance to the right they did that all on their own. If the dems take one thing from trump is that people want to be on the left of him and I hope this forces them to go to the left and get power forcing the right to tact left to keep ahold of the center enough to win.

This is ignoring why the dems went right but lets just agree to cut history off there for the sake of time.

On December 06 2017 02:14 zlefin wrote:

I don't see that timeline as accurate. what citations/evidence do you have on it?
I don't see the dems moving right, then the republicans moving right as a response (not that that would even be a justification),
I see the dems moving right in some ways and left in some ways, and overall staying similar to where they were, or maybe a bit leftward, while the republicans lurched heavily to the right.

if the dems go further leftward, what makes you think they'd get more votes rather than less? that seems unjustified, if they go further from the median voter they'd be apt to get less votes rather than more.

(then of course the words left/right are rather vague in and of themselves)

On December 06 2017 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:


Imagining for a moment I completely accept this framing, could you give me an example of a comparably (though notably less) significant positive example from Muslim cultures , and then could you provide one from any other non-western culture?

On December 06 2017 02:14 NewSunshine wrote:

I don't want to be superior to them, I want us all to be willing to have an honest discussion with each other. If I come off as polarizing because I don't indulge their bad faith argumentation, then I'm guilty as charged.

On December 06 2017 02:20 Uldridge wrote:
The implications you made from analyzing Western culture is a trap, xDaunt. You're basically saying that we're the only culture that evolved into something that has an intrinsic higher value than what other cultures had, so they adopted it.

However, there's no way for sure that, just because Western culture was the most influential and the first on many aspects, this wouldn't arise somewhere else. It might've just been that an earlier change in Middle Eastern or East Asian culture would've swept everything else aside and we would've followed suit or drowned.

Just because your predecessors did it and established a rulebook that's more or less followed by the world, doesn't mean you get to say your culture is the best. It was simply first. I won't deny we didn't do it first and I guess you can attribute Caucasian minds coupled with centuries long continental conflicts for that, but in the end it's a bit silly. Humans are ingenious beings, that's universal. It doesn't matter if where you're from.

On December 06 2017 02:22 kollin wrote:
Western culture is a product of capitalism, and the fact other countries adopt it is more of an example of the power of capital in transforming them than the strength of Western values overwhelming them.

On December 06 2017 02:33 xDaunt wrote:


I have no idea what this means, so I highly doubt that this is what I'm saying.



This is not only speculative, but it is demonstrably untrue. As just one example, mainstream Muslim philosophers explicitly rejected the very conclusions that contemporary Christian philosophers made that ultimate led to the Enlightenment. You're clearly out of your depth, here.



Again, you're demonstrating zero understanding of how this stuff works. I don't believe that Western culture is superior because Western culture established a "rulebook" that is now "more or less followed by the world." Western culture is superior because it adheres to and promotes critically important values of individual liberty and freedom that are expressly rejected by every other culture around the world. You need to demonstrate the slightest aptitude for understanding what the argument even is before you engage in it.

Justice Kennedy is back, raising deep concerns about comments made by one commissioner on the Colorado Civil Rights Commission who said it was “one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric” for people to use their religion to hurt others. The justice makes clear he’s troubled by the statement and asks if the state disavows it.

Mr. Yarger said he wouldn’t counsel a client to make a statement like that. Pressed further by Justice Kennedy, he then says, yes, he disavows it.

Justice Kennedy and Justice Gorsuch then go on to ask what the court should do with the case if it believed at least some members of the state civil rights commission had demonstrated hostility toward religion.

Mr. Yarger said the commission was not in fact hostile to religion.

Justice Alito continued to poke at Colorado’s insistence that all would be well if Mr. Phillips simply provided an identical product--such as the same cake with the same words--without regard to characteristics the state protects from discrimination. What if one couple ordered a cake celebrating its anniversary, with icing that read something like, “Nov. 9 is the greatest day in history.” And then someone else came in and ordered the identical cake, explaining, “We’re going to have a party to celebrate Kristallnacht”--the Nazi pogrom that began Nov. 9, 1938, marking a major step toward the Holocaust.

A quick headline here: Colorado is having difficulties in defending how it applied its public accommodations law to the baker.

Justice Anthony Kennedy told a lawyer for the state that tolerance is essential in a free society, but it’s important for tolerance to work in both directions. “It seems to me the state has been neither tolerant or respectful” of the baker’s views, he said.