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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Well you're clearly not and that's a good thing 
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Hopefully at some point our culture gets attacked by a bunch of Koreans and we ditch the comically bad latin alphabet for the korean one.
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It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably.
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It's not even remotely coherent once one wraps their head around the fact that "Western Culture" spawned the very things folks like the Daunt man rail against routinely. It's more like "Western Culture minus the things I don't like," like catdog points out above.
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I expect Trump to consider firing Mueller...
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On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam.
Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers....
On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that.
You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument.
On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably.
Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values."
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didn't Trump more or less say that his personal or his families bank records are a red line for him that Mueller should not cross? I think I read about that somewhere like 1-2 months ago? He didn't SAY it's a red line but it pretty much read as that.
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On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values."
I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture?
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On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." xDaubt, what are these "western values" to which you are constantly referring to? I remember asking you, and for you Western values was Christianity, capitalism and nationalism. Or perhaps it was Danglars. Y'all sound the same to me. You appear to inhabit a different space to the rest of us in which we can normally communicate, so I'll have to ask you to define the terms in which you commonly use.
Edit: Also what is Mobile and AL? Never heard of those capital cities. Search engines gave me nothing.
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On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture?
A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments.
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mobile isn't a capital, it's just one of the notable cities in Alabama. AL is the postal abbreviation for the state of Alabama.
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On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values."
I suspect the similarities that you're going to draw between Paris and Mobile in defense of that point are going to be vague and common, but go ahead anyway.
There is an element of 'my values' in that not all branches of western culture are equally threatened by multiculturalism and your description paints it as everyone of us under attack, thus erasing all of us western value having people who have value systems that deal easily with diversity of origin.
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Thanks zlefin. Why is such a city compared to Paris? Is that xdaunt's birthplace? Has he even been to Paris? The two aren't even comparable. Though admitted I've never been to this Mobile AL. A Frenchman would laugh at the idea that some random tiny town in USA is culturally linked to Paris, whilst say a large coastal City in China weren't. For instance Shanghai was called the Paris of the East with the locals adopting and wearing western and Parisian fashions, and it was culturally affected as an entrepot, at least till the Japanese invaded.
Just a little history lesson that will hopefully broaden your mind, that even in the past, people were trading internationally and exchanging ideas as well as trade, adopting values of faraway lands, but I suspect it's wasted anyways.
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A conservative christian living in some village in Alabama has probably much more in common with a conservative Muslim than with a liberal from Paris.
But to realise that one would have to see more than Christian =/ Muslim and White =/ Brown (or whatever).
Its extra funny because these backwater shitholes are not exactly the places were western values, or any cultural achievments have been created, they have been dragged along by the more innovative and progressive areas for the last few centuries while kicking and screaming about their religious idiocities, sorry "freedoms", for the whole time.
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On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments.
I feel like one of us isn't reading this right?
Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture?
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On December 05 2017 23:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 22:32 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 22:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 17:17 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam. Maybe I don't believe that a culture is Western just because it is Christian? Perhaps I have identified other markers.... On December 05 2017 21:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that. You're just going to get lost in the weeds if you start conflating local cultures with the larger concept of western culture. Like it or not, there's no denying that there are cultural links between Mobile, AL and Paris that do not also exist with Beijing or Riyadh. The failure to appreciate this fact is why so many people are struggling to respond to my argument. On December 05 2017 21:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's easy to frame a war of cultures when "western culture" means *my values*, thus removing all the varieties and differences within western culture. It also removes the concept in the head to acknowledge that other people of western culture can have different opinions reasonably. Good thing no one has framed "western culture" as "my values." I just want a couple significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture? A good thing would be the concept of inalienable rights and the resulting Western emphasis on individual liberty. A bad thing would be the creation and implementation of socialist and communist governments. I feel like one of us isn't reading this right? Those are significant examples of bad things you think are the product of western culture and some good things that are a product of non-western culture?
I tilted my head as well to get a grasp. Still nothing. I think he switched them?
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United States44415 Posts
Reminder that 10 years ago what would become the ACA was a conservative viewpoint, as enacted by the Republican governor of Massachusetts. It's pretty hard to hold a mix of conservative views when the conservatives insist that any view a moderate holds is no view of theirs.
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interesting graph and progression; though i' msure there's a lot of idiots misinterpreting in dumb ways, like thinking it means the left has gone crazy leftward. rather than the reality that it's the right that's gone crazy.
people seeing what they want to see rather than carefully looking at the actual info to understand the statistics and what they really mean, ah well; pesky morons. how'd you hear about it? i hope it's not some dumbass rightists sites spreading it around as if it proves they're correct.
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EPT
