|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 05 2017 14:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 13:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
That Christians are being discriminated against and that he objects on the grounds of his strong belief in the freedom of religion. There's nothing invalid about his argument. The free exercise clause isn't something he made up. And it's very clear that rather militant LGBTQ entities are actively setting up Christians for these types of cake shop lawsuits. The problem with y'all on the left is that you are so self-confident in the correctness of your beliefs on these issues that you are unable to comprehend what the countervailing argument might be or that it might be legitimate. That SCOTUS took the case and framed the issue the way that it did demonstrates just how badly misplaced that self-confidence is. It's not about whether it exists, it's about whether his objection is actually based on it or if he merely uses it as a mask.
I've seen nothing to indicate that Danglars is advancing a position he doesn't believe in this instance. And I can't think of a time when he did do something like that. I'm not sure what your basis for thinking that he could be.
|
On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 09:37 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 09:08 Nevuk wrote:On December 05 2017 09:06 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
The state is the government. The nation is the people. In a democratic form of government, the state's power is derived from the people through a social contract with the people to govern in their interests. This is why the state's first duty is to the welfare of the people -- ie the nation. Why you would challenge any of these basic propositions is beyond me.
And this statement...
[quote]
...is not grounded in any kind of factual reality. To the contrary, history is littered with examples of conflict and war erupting where peoples with conflicting values live in close proximity to each other. Virtually everyone understands this with the exception of the leftist multiculturalists in the West.
[quote]
Yep. I'm sure china will collapse any day now I am equally puzzled as xDaunt by this statement. If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard). If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays?
Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama
Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else
|
If Roy Moore can win the election with 5 or 6 sexual allegations against him, with one allegation being a minor, democrats need to revise their mid-term strategy.
|
On December 05 2017 14:06 Plansix wrote:
False sexual harassment and rape claims don't normally hold up under scrutiny and there has been little evidence credible claims stop elected offices. It's not a big worry.
Scrutiny doesn't come in infinite supply, and the general notion that people have is that once several people come forward, the person is probably a scumbag. It doesn't matter if, weeks later, all the allegations turn out to be fabricated - the damage has been done.
That said, I don't think it'll stop people from winning elected office either. I fully expect Roy Moore to win. The thought that Alabama republicans would choose not to vote for Roy over this is a bit nonsensical.
I would love to be shown wrong though.
|
On December 05 2017 14:56 urmomdresslikafloozy wrote:
If Roy Moore can win the election with 5 or 6 sexual allegations against him, with one allegation being a minor, democrats need to revise their mid-term strategy.
Well it is in Alabama.
|
On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 09:37 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 09:08 Nevuk wrote:
[quote]I'm sure china will collapse any day now
I am equally puzzled as xDaunt by this statement. If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard). If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else
How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument.
|
Moore might have lost but I think these other scandals have allowed people to rationalize it in their heads. If he wins it will be by a much smaller margin than a Republican would normally get. The state is just so red and Jones is so blue it's a lift. It you have a battle of turnout where only the candidates' bases turn out and most people stay home that helps Moore.
|
On December 05 2017 14:53 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 05 2017 13:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
That Christians are being discriminated against and that he objects on the grounds of his strong belief in the freedom of religion. There's nothing invalid about his argument. The free exercise clause isn't something he made up. And it's very clear that rather militant LGBTQ entities are actively setting up Christians for these types of cake shop lawsuits. The problem with y'all on the left is that you are so self-confident in the correctness of your beliefs on these issues that you are unable to comprehend what the countervailing argument might be or that it might be legitimate. That SCOTUS took the case and framed the issue the way that it did demonstrates just how badly misplaced that self-confidence is. It's not about whether it exists, it's about whether his objection is actually based on it or if he merely uses it as a mask. I've seen nothing to indicate that Danglars is advancing a position he doesn't believe in this instance. And I can't think of a time when he did do something like that. I'm not sure what your basis for thinking that he could be.
A president actively supporting someone who openly disregards freedom of religion for the US Senate: Acceptable
Not baking homophobic cakes for anyone including Christians: Unacceptable
Nothing about that indicates insincerity to you?
|
On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 09:37 mozoku wrote:
[quote]
I am equally puzzled as xDaunt by this statement. If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard). If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument.
You like to make this claim, but do you have some evidence to show that christians are less homophobic and misogynistic than muslims? Or are you just pulling that out of your ass and hoping people buy it?
|
On December 05 2017 15:13 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:56 urmomdresslikafloozy wrote:
If Roy Moore can win the election with 5 or 6 sexual allegations against him, with one allegation being a minor, democrats need to revise their mid-term strategy. Well it is in Alabama.
Exactly, the only way Moore could lose is if he had a mixed race child, secret abortions, or came out as gay. I think people underestimate how backward the Deep South can be.
|
On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 09:37 mozoku wrote:
[quote]
I am equally puzzled as xDaunt by this statement. If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard). If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument.
I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority?
|
On December 05 2017 16:00 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard).
If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. You like to make this claim, but do you have some evidence to show that christians are less homophobic and misogynistic than muslims? Or are you just pulling that out of your ass and hoping people buy it?
He undoubtedly perceives a great difference between Christians in Zambia persecuting women and homosexuals and Muslims in Somalia doing the same. For starters when Christians are homophobic or misogynistic or in fact do anything bad at all there are numerous factors to consider such as poverty, lack of education, local unrest, political motivations etc. When Muslims do anything, it's because of Islam.
|
On December 05 2017 16:36 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:18 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 14:55 Nyxisto wrote:On December 05 2017 13:35 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 13:26 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 13:22 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:54 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 12:47 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 12:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 12:42 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
If you were unaware, China is a hugely diverse nation, more akin to an old empire than a modern nation state. There are more different ethnic and cultural groups in China than you'll find basically anywhere else (it doesn't hurt they they have so many people in that regard).
If someone wishes to argue that multiculturalism is doomed then the existence of China poses a challenge. The obvious point that y'all are missing (and mozoku gets) is that China is acutely aware of its multiculturalism and is actively trying to stamp it out and assimilate as many of the minorities as possible into the Han majority. I don't know why I'm surprised that your takeaway from the ethnic cleansing going on in Tibet is "we could learn a lot from these guys". Cultural Authority is adored by people who want to see white culture dominate. The difference between you and me is that you're not quite honest enough to admit that all of your leftist and liberal values are the products of "white culture." I'm fully aware of where my culture and values came from. I'm just not naive, arrogant or foolish enough to believe they are superior to the point of dominance must be obtained. Or that other cultures do not share similar values. I don't subscribe to your myopic views and redressed jingoism. Do you really not have the conviction to say that your culture is superior to a culture that encourages the abuse (or worse) of women and gays? Seriously have to wonder why the strongest champions of that culture are going to elect a pedophile to office in the great state of Alabama Maybe Plansix doesn't just think that's a high enough bar to jump over to claim it as a kind of collective crowning achievement. In fact the people who least talk about how their culture is superior seem to be surprisingly good at trying to live up to it, while that can't be said of everybody else How many more hints do you need that equating the frequency and severity of homophobia and mysoginy in the Muslim world to what can be found in America is simply retarded? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you are peddling this crap? There is no factual basis for it whatsoever. Take some time to come up with a real argument. I didn't equate anything. I said that the fact that you perceiving whatever culture to be marginally less rapy than another isn't a justification for any from of group allegiance. What kind of mediocre person do you need to be that this kind of low brow culture war invokes feelings of superiority?
I’m also always completely baffled that the people who consider feminism to be a cancer, gay rights a threat to the american family, other religions as an existencial threat and so on and so forth bash the muslim world for being opressing to women, gays and religious minorities.
I mean, make up your mind. You can’t be in a culture total war with liberals and hate all muslims because their countries generally don’t adopt liberal values.
|
No offense, but comparing the West and conservative Muslim countries on women's rights can't even really be fully captured in the type of "evidence" hunts is probably looking for. Nor does "marginally less rapy" really do it justice.
We're talking things like being allowed to work, drive, have sex, dress how you want, use the same door as men, legally leave the country without permission from your husband, speak loudly in public, and receive education past the age of 8. When you've got issues like those, looking for figures describing sexual harassment rates makes you feel like you're kind of missing the point. It's an order of magnitude(s) difference.
There's a lot of intrapopulation variance, of course, especially depending on what country you're in, what city you're in, etc, and the vast majority of American Muslims are probably far far on the liberal side of the spectrum among Muslims (i.e. perfectly reasonable and tolerant people). And there's definitely arguments to be made about how much of the misogyny is a product of the relative poverty of Muslim states (and what role Islam plays in that poverty) versus how much of it is due to the religion of Islam itself. I think it'd be hard to argue that the teachings of Islam that most Muslims (i.e. those that don't live in the West) receive play no role though, and I think even a lot of (most?) liberal scholars acknowledge that.
|
On December 05 2017 17:37 mozoku wrote:
No offense, but comparing the West and conservative Muslim countries on women's rights can't even really be fully captured in the type of "evidence" hunts is probably looking for. Nor does "marginally less rapy" really do it justice.
We're talking things like being allowed to work, drive, have sex, dress how you want, use the same door as men, legally leave the country without permission from your husband, speak loudly in public, and receive education past the age of 8. When you've got issues like those, looking for figures describing sexual harassment rates makes you feel like you're kind of missing the point. It's an order of magnitude(s) difference.
There's a lot of intrapopulation variance, of course, especially depending on what country you're in, what city you're in, etc, and the vast majority of American Muslims are probably far far on the liberal side of the spectrum among Muslims (i.e. perfectly reasonable and tolerant people). And there's definitely arguments to be made about how much of the misogyny is a product of the relative poverty of Muslim states (and what role Islam plays in that poverty) versus how much of it is due to the religion of Islam itself.
Absolutely, no one argues with that. But I am still always amazed to see, say, Marine Le Pen vomit her hatred of muslims because look what they do to gays when her guys were chanting « les pd au buchers » (fags to the pire) when they were protesting gay marriage, a doomsday threat to our civilization.
The situation doesn’t need to be equal to find paradoxical the fact that people who claim that liberal values are literally cancer also hate those brown people because they are not liberal enough.
|
On December 05 2017 17:37 mozoku wrote:...
I think it'd be hard to argue that the teachings of Islam that most Muslims (i.e. those that don't live in the West) receive play no role though, and I think even a lot of (most?) liberal scholars acknowledge that.
With respect to this point, I think it's necessary to emphasise that the influence of Islam must be considered in comparison to alternatives, not just looking at it in a vacuum. You did acknowledge a point along those lines in the preceding sentences.
|
|
|
On December 05 2017 17:37 mozoku wrote:
No offense, but comparing the West and conservative Muslim countries on women's rights can't even really be fully captured in the type of "evidence" hunts is probably looking for. Nor does "marginally less rapy" really do it justice.
We're talking things like being allowed to work, drive, have sex, dress how you want, use the same door as men, legally leave the country without permission from your husband, speak loudly in public, and receive education past the age of 8. When you've got issues like those, looking for figures describing sexual harassment rates makes you feel like you're kind of missing the point. It's an order of magnitude(s) difference.
There's a lot of intrapopulation variance, of course, especially depending on what country you're in, what city you're in, etc, and the vast majority of American Muslims are probably far far on the liberal side of the spectrum among Muslims (i.e. perfectly reasonable and tolerant people). And there's definitely arguments to be made about how much of the misogyny is a product of the relative poverty of Muslim states (and what role Islam plays in that poverty) versus how much of it is due to the religion of Islam itself. I think it'd be hard to argue that the teachings of Islam that most Muslims (i.e. those that don't live in the West) receive play no role though, and I think even a lot of (most?) liberal scholars acknowledge that.
Religion is what a society makes of it. Take the example of the niqab, which is probably one of the most heavily politically contentious aspects of Islam. Until slightly over century ago no one talked about it when discussing Islam. It was present or not in various Islamic and non-Islamic societies of the Middle East, at times fashionable, at times not, sometimes a symbol of the upper class. Either way it was completely a cultural artifact, not a religious one.
Then European Orientalist thinkers and secular modernist Muslim thinkers influenced by Orientalist ideas chose it as an example of the backwardness of Arabic/Islamic culture vis-à-vis Western culture that should be gotten rid of, and those who opposed Westernization made it a symbol of resistance to colonialism and imperialism. And it escalated from there.
Despite the fact that veiling was never until then much of a religious topic, and that the Qur'an doesn't require it, it became the one thing (apart from terrorism) that people in the West think of when they think of Islam. Even today the vast majority of Muslim scholars would tell you that the niqab is some degree of not required (ranging from recommended to forbidden), with a tiny minority (mainly Wahhabi) insisting that it's required.
|
The one gain from this is now we're no longer dealing with the cloak of "Western Culture."
|
I don't know that we should just accept xDaunt's framing about the war of cultures. There are a number of ways to attack the premise before we ever get to discussing his strong feelings and emotion about western culture being under threat from all of those non-western immigrants.
We can and have in the past established that several different cultures are present in the west, there's a wide range that is both regional (Alabama vs a large swedish city, Poland vs Portugal) and personal (a leftist Californian vs a rightwing Californian in San Diego). All of these people exist within western culture and display a wide range of social beliefs and social norms, but not all these people have their culture equally threatened by multiculturalism. All the groups that don't need an other in opposition to describe and justify their existence are going to be completely fine. With the framing of a war of cultures, there's an acceptance that someone like xDaunt and someone like me are on the same side, because we share the same culture. I don't know that I should be comfortable with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
