|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Regarding this slightly earlier discussion: I see where people are coming from in their concerns about the dangers of Trump specifically and populist/protectionist movements in general. They see the postwar era as one that was very good to them, and one not worth tearing down despite concerns over certain issues or others. I actually think that Hillary Clinton, in her GS speeches leaked by Wikileaks, gave a rather solid defense of the rationale there - rebuild old enemies' economies to integrate them into the world economy and establish prosperity. To undermine that is to undermine the entire postwar peace and economic prosperity.
But the reality just doesn't quite conform to that. Some benefit more than others from this turn of events, but a lot of people absolutely lose out. Those who once had a solid middle-class existence are relegated into the poor class, while others become wealthier. The very poor, both in the first world and elsewhere, are probably better off overall, but the middle class was largely gutted in recent decades. The 2009 recession and its continuing aftermath is influenced by this. Of course, technology and globalism play a big role here.
Perhaps what is more troubling, however, is a general stubborn inability among much of the leadership of the "liberal world" to respond or even acknowledge the criticisms from parties that are dissatisfied. This applies to nations and their leadership that make decisions contrary to what said liberal world nations want, but more relevant to this situation is probably internal strife. There is a tendency to want to sideline or ignore the kind of people who oppose policies pursued towards that support the postwar order, often by making a "bipartisan coalition" to give a "no choice" proposition for the people. And the result is that the marginalized take more and more aggressive measures in pursuit of being heard.
I would give Sanders and Trump as a foil that, while imperfect, might help illustrate the issue. Sanders is by no means an extremist - stubborn and more of an idealist than a realist, but he does come off as someone genuinely committed to a measured and reasonable solution to problems that trouble people. I would pin his most central message as "our country has such great wealth but has so many people living in poverty." Or something close to that, at least.
Well, he wasn't really given a fair shake. Anyone but the most stubborn and obtuse of Clinton supporters would acknowledge that he wasn't really given a fair shot. And certainly, there is reason to believe that in a fair fight he wouldn't have beaten Clinton - which is absolutely fine, because frankly he does come off as impractical. The DNC treated him badly enough, though, with high-ranking members colluding as to how they could defeat him so Clinton could win.
And after Clinton did win, his message was sidelined in the most laughable way possible. While Sanders himself did get on board the Clinton train, nominally at the very least, he is a politician and there is nothing for him to gain by distancing himself from Clinton, win or loss. But she basically continued to refuse to acknowledge the concerns of the Bernie bloc, picking Kaine as the VP and making her central message something along the lines of, "yes you're not really happy with me but Trump is sooooooooo badddddddddd and we just can't have that no matter what." Her inability to see that she should have gotten the Bernie bloc on board with genuine compromise (believe me, in an election like this, a lot of leftists really want to believe that they can get behind Clinton but she just utterly failed to gain their support) probably lost her a lot of support. Her mishandling of classified documents is a more personal failure that makes her vulnerable, and it's relevant here too, but all in all enough people didn't back her that backed Sanders/Obama to make it a loss.
Then we have Trump. For all the faults of Hillary she isn't nearly as bad as the web of utter bullshit the Republicans have spun in pursuit of a very corporatist and often hawkish agenda. They were all liars, but Trump managed to be the most charming one, who bullshitted but did it in a way that often touched at very pointed and underappreciated issues in the country. No, he is by no means qualified to be president, but if you were paying attention to the primaries you would see why he won. To their credit, the RNC, if not the larger Republican establishment, accepted an unwanted Trump victory with grace and did their best to help him. His flaws are ubiquitous and disqualifying, I see no need to repeat them because half this thread is about laughing about how bad Trump is.
My point in all this is to just basically establish an indirect causality - a refusal to accept the more moderate, "Sanders approach" to addressing the issues, opened the door to a more populist and less stable, "Trump approach" to them. Yes, Trump didn't have to win and he wasn't favored, but if it were someone better than Clinton there wouldn't have even been a chance. If Clinton hadn't had a massive and unexpected rebellion in precisely the places where Sanders was most popular she would have won. But they didn't vote for her because she didn't earn their support and instead relied on identity politics and Trump bashing.
Getting back to the GS speeches and the defense of the liberal order, the core issue really is an inability to acknowledge fault and a widespread attempt to suppress any criticism across the US and all of Europe. This is why the far-right is on the rise there: because no one else is even willing to acknowledge their issues. Yes, they're troubling people, and yes, people are rightly afraid of voting for them even then, but they do what no one else does.
These speeches were given back in 2013 - around the time of the Syria issue, back when populist trends were visible but not yet pervasive. The way she talks about various issues - "oh, we have such-and-such plans in Syria, and the people don't like them, so we have to do it as quietly as we can," "these populists are a threat to what we're doing (but I'm not going to give any thought as to why they have been gaining support)," "these trade deals we are putting together are going to be great for our businesses and security plans (but no comments about our workers)," and many other similar gems, just demonstrate the very common out-of-touch attitude that standard centrist American and European leadership tends to have that has led to populism. Clinton is like the archetypal "backroom deals" candidate with hubris to boot, and the email matter(s) contributed to that.
So that's my general thoughts on the outlook of the "we are entering dangerous territory" folk. These populist movements did not develop in a vacuum. But lastly, I want to relay something interesting I read in an "Obama's legacy" article. His end is quite paradoxical: he leaves with a high approval rating but his legacy is in danger of being dismantled by his highly unpopular successor who was elected on the promise of fixing his mistakes. My explanation for this is Obama's personal charm and general competence on the job. He managed to convince people that his status quo incremental improvements were making things better, all the while contributing to the problem in other ways. He was "the status quo" and he didn't fix the decline in the middle class, and he couldn't manage to get people on board with Clinton despite personal popularity. I can't blame him; it's a hard sell.
This entire trend is not just something that came together in a vacuum - it is the response of "the forgotten" as Trump calls them, to being left behind and marginalized.
|
I don't know about you but I'm ready for pope versus president. realistically it probably won't amount to a ton but will be interesting.
Pope Francis has warned against a rise in populism and the dangers of allowing political crises to usher in dictators like Hitler.
He made the comments as Donald Trump was being sworn-in as US president in a wide-ranging interview with Spanish newspaper El Pais.
The Pope condemned the use of walls and barbed-wire to keep foreigners out.
But he said it was too early to judge the new US leader, saying "we'll see what Trump does".
Mr Trump has caused controversy with his comments on Mexican immigrants and his plans for a wall to keep them out.
Asked if he was worried about the rise of populism in Europe and the US, the Pope said: "Crises provoke fear, alarm. In my opinion, the most obvious example of European populism is Germany in 1933.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38708485
|
On January 22 2017 08:22 xDaunt wrote:
Surely there is one poster around here who understands the concept of editorial bias and its relationship to the truth.
Certainly you understand what the words your using means? If not, let me remind you.
Bias =/= False
Bias = Bias
False = False
Truth = Truth
|
On January 22 2017 14:45 LegalLord wrote:
I'm curious if there will be an amendment passed after Trump to prevent... something or other about his presidency that is deeply undesirable.
If something like this were to happen I would expect it to be rules for conflict of interest.
|
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance.
|
On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance.
Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years?
The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
|
On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
If you knew something about “the left” you would know that various currents of the left criticize center-left policies for bullying people and thus creating room for people like Trump.
|
On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
Telling someone to stop repeating a mantra only to follow it with multiples of your own choosing isn't very persuasive. In fact, you're easily one of the least persuasive posters in that you drop in with one or two lines about how you're glad Trump won and then you run away, unable to defend your words.
The first step is acknowledging the problem-SoSexy will never do that.
On January 22 2017 21:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. If you knew something about “the left” you would know that various currents of the left criticize center-left policies for bullying people and thus creating room for people like Trump.
This thread itself is even full of leftists criticizing leftists, though it's clear that not everyone who posts here actually reads the posts of others 
|
On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
No where did Warding talk about how great the left was for the middle class. He only said that Trump was not going to help them at all (and is likely to hurt them with trade tariffs increasing the price of goods).
Yes people have been left behind. There are plenty of left winged posters in this thread that acknowledge it, myself included, but its a problem that is felt throughout the world and that does not appear to have a ready solution without heavy handed government intervention.
I don't know what the solution is, but it sure isnt electing a billionaire who has no idea what the middle class faces and is deluded enough to think he can undo globalization and automation.
|
I don't get the support to Israel, specially coming from an anti migrant President. Even our far right agrees Palestinian should be allowed to have their country. I've tried to find sources why the US support Isreal but I've found nothing really explaining it. It's a major cause of problems between the West and the East and everyone outside of the US and Israel agree that at least the colonization should stop and would benefit everyone. Anyone has a good source/book explaining this support? Specially after some espionage affairs or the Israeli selling some American weapons to China.
|
On January 22 2017 21:38 nojok wrote:
I don't get the support to Israel, specially coming from an anti migrant President. Even our far right agrees Palestinian should be allowed to have their country. I've tried to find sources why the US support Isreal but I've found nothing really explaining it. It's a major cause of problems between the West and the East and everyone outside of the US and Israel agree that at least the colonization should stop and would benefit everyone. Anyone has a good source/book explaining this support? Specially after some espionage affairs or the Israeli selling some American weapons to China.
Large and powerful Jewish lobbying groups.
|
Norway28716 Posts
On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
Sure they will. In fact I've already seen a change in attitude among most my leftist friends that I discuss politics with, spurred by several articles from leftists in leftist magazines - people are acknowledging that the white rural lower middle class has been neglected (and ridiculed) for decades, and that 'the left' has been guilty of this much the same as 'the right'. The second silver lining of the Trump victory is just this, that leftists manage to create a coherent and inclusive movement with room for rural workers, not just the young, urban and educated aspiring-to-be-elites.
The problem is finding political solutions that actually benefit this group, rather than assigning blame for their downfall on another vulnerable and exposed group. There's nothing indicating that closing the borders and ending trade is going to spur massive job growth for this particular group, automation and digitization are both bigger issues (and automation/digitization comes with a host of positives that can't really be rolled back either).
|
On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that.
I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother.
Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle.
|
On January 22 2017 21:14 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. Telling someone to stop repeating a mantra only to follow it with multiples of your own choosing isn't very persuasive. In fact, you're easily one of the least persuasive posters in that you drop in with one or two lines about how you're glad Trump won and then you run away, unable to defend your words. The first step is acknowledging the problem-SoSexy will never do that. Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:12 TheDwf wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. If you knew something about “the left” you would know that various currents of the left criticize center-left policies for bullying people and thus creating room for people like Trump. This thread itself is even full of leftists criticizing leftists, though it's clear that not everyone who posts here actually reads the posts of others
LOL I do not have to convince anyone! I am simply taking a look at reality. Trump won and it would be time for the left to say 'we fucked up. hard. sorry rural americans, you are not monstrous, under-developed racists. we will try to build a program that will consider your worries'. That's all I'd like. Instead I see idiots smashing the windows of a McDonald, running with a giant black flag or stuff like this + Show Spoiler +
|
On January 22 2017 21:51 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:14 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. Telling someone to stop repeating a mantra only to follow it with multiples of your own choosing isn't very persuasive. In fact, you're easily one of the least persuasive posters in that you drop in with one or two lines about how you're glad Trump won and then you run away, unable to defend your words. The first step is acknowledging the problem-SoSexy will never do that. On January 22 2017 21:12 TheDwf wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. If you knew something about “the left” you would know that various currents of the left criticize center-left policies for bullying people and thus creating room for people like Trump. This thread itself is even full of leftists criticizing leftists, though it's clear that not everyone who posts here actually reads the posts of others LOL I do not have to convince anyone! I am simply taking a look at reality. Trump won and it would be time for the left to say 'we fucked up. hard. sorry rural americans, you are not monstrous, under-developed racists. we will try to build a program that will consider your worries'. That's all I'd like. Instead I see idiots smashing the windows of a McDonald, running with a giant black flag or stuff like this + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxhiKYaBsCE
So you want them to lie? Because there is no (acceptable) solution for them. As I said, the entire world is struggling with this problem.
If you have a solution by all means share it with the world, you'll get Nobel price of economics if it works.
|
On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class.
you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine.
|
On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine.
Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall.
How do you plan to undo the effects of automation?
|
For those curious, there was not a single arrest (that's right, zero arrests) made during yesterday's Women's March.
|
Norway28716 Posts
On January 22 2017 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine. Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall. How do you plan to undo the effects of automation?
They can get jobs building the wall, I guess.
|
It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
