|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 22 2017 23:57 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine. Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall. How do you plan to undo the effects of automation? The wall is more so symbolic of what it represents: keeping low-paid laborers out to prevent a downward spiral in wages and working conditions. I would argue that programs like the H1-B (visa for skilled guest workers) does equal or more harm because its abuse induces an even more insidious race to the bottom. Some immigrants are a net benefit for the country, some are a net loss, but when they see the disaster of the migrant crisis in Europe they feel that building a wall is a better approach than "open the floodgates." In the US at least, the "solution" is a more inward-focused economic development. I can't help but be disgusted whenever I see just how much some of the large American businesses focus on expansion in China and India (and boast about it) while much of the country would be quite happy to have the kinds of jobs they're creating abroad. The solution may not be to stand in the way of technological development like automation - but it must involve processes that put a nation's own people ahead of the best profits attainable. Anything more specific than that, I'd prefer to have a cabinet of economic advisors to develop specific policy proposals.
You realise that its not so much that low-paid immigrant workers are repressing wages but that Americans are not willing to do the work themselves right?
The pay is shit because the margins are shit because people want cheap stuff. Their not willing to pay 30% more for their grocery shopping just because an American worker has to be paid enough to want to do it compared to an illegal Mexican.
As you said yourself but it must involve processes that put a nation's own people ahead of the best profits attainable The only way to combat it is heavy handed government intervention. Stuff like limiting top wages to (just pulling numbers out of my ass) 10x the lowest earner.
The Netherlands tried it back in 2006 by a voluntary program to limit top public CEO salaries to 130% of the prime minister.
As you can guess it wasn't widely adopted.
|
On January 22 2017 21:38 nojok wrote:
I don't get the support to Israel, specially coming from an anti migrant President. Even our far right agrees Palestinian should be allowed to have their country. I've tried to find sources why the US support Isreal but I've found nothing really explaining it. It's a major cause of problems between the West and the East and everyone outside of the US and Israel agree that at least the colonization should stop and would benefit everyone. Anyone has a good source/book explaining this support? Specially after some espionage affairs or the Israeli selling some American weapons to China.
For the president, my guess would be that he sees Israel as an ally against terrorism. Republicans in general have a large religious base of support that supports Israel for what should be obvious reasons.
On the left, the concerns are generally more so that non-first-generation Jews generally lean left, and they need the votes. The human rights folk have generally soured on Israel, though one might wonder whether or not they miss the bigger picture in that Israel is surrounded by nations that call for its destruction. Nevertheless, the "Palestinians are being abused" arguments have gained traction in the US' left wing.
In any case, for the foreseeable future, the US will remain more pro-Israel than Europe.
|
Norway28716 Posts
aren't secular jews basically the most pro-palestine group in the US? And really conservative christians the most pro-israel? I recall something to that effect being posted here a couple years ago.
|
On January 23 2017 00:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 23:57 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine. Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall. How do you plan to undo the effects of automation? The wall is more so symbolic of what it represents: keeping low-paid laborers out to prevent a downward spiral in wages and working conditions. I would argue that programs like the H1-B (visa for skilled guest workers) does equal or more harm because its abuse induces an even more insidious race to the bottom. Some immigrants are a net benefit for the country, some are a net loss, but when they see the disaster of the migrant crisis in Europe they feel that building a wall is a better approach than "open the floodgates." In the US at least, the "solution" is a more inward-focused economic development. I can't help but be disgusted whenever I see just how much some of the large American businesses focus on expansion in China and India (and boast about it) while much of the country would be quite happy to have the kinds of jobs they're creating abroad. The solution may not be to stand in the way of technological development like automation - but it must involve processes that put a nation's own people ahead of the best profits attainable. Anything more specific than that, I'd prefer to have a cabinet of economic advisors to develop specific policy proposals. You realise that its not so much that low-paid immigrant workers are repressing wages but that Americans are not willing to do the work themselves right? The pay is shit because the margins are shit because people want cheap stuff. Their not willing to pay 30% more for their grocery shopping just because an American worker has to be paid enough to want to do it compared to an illegal Mexican. As you said yourself Show nested quote + but it must involve processes that put a nation's own people ahead of the best profits attainable The only way to combat it is heavy handed government intervention. Stuff like limiting top wages to (just pulling numbers out of my ass) 10x the lowest earner. The Netherlands tried it back in 2006 by a voluntary program to limit top public CEO salaries to 130% of the prime minister. As you can guess it wasn't widely adopted.
If "not willing to do the work" is taken to mean "not willing to do the work under the conditions that the employers would want for the price they want" then there is a problem.
It's not quite as simple as "have Americans do the work and pay more" but it's definitely not "fuck those fucks that don't want to do the work."
No easy policy solution here - but a solution needs to be developed. No illusions that it would be easy.
|
Man that press secretary rant by Sean Spicer about the croud sizes is beyond ridiculous. He's almost foaming at the mouth spouting his objective lies and flaming the press.
To me it's chilling that they choose to lie about basic checkable facts (it's just plain visible the croud was smaller than 2009, also subway ticket sales verified it, it's not the first time they protected the grass etc). How can you ever believe their word now when they present more complex information on actual critical matters. Scary as fuck.
Also why on earth do they worry about croud sizes in the first place. Pure ego stroking because he HAS to be the best biggest smartest greatest at everything in his narcissistic worldview.
Then when NBC ask the presidents counselor about why on earth they would come out and lie about petty shit like this she just completely ignores his question, multiple times, and in the end comes to saying Spicer stated 'alternate facts'. 15 minutes and she can't even answer a single question and ends up attacking him, telling him what is or isn't in his job description. Wtf man
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-conway-interview-presidents-aren-t-judged-by-crowd-size-860134979785
|
On January 23 2017 00:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:
aren't secular jews basically the most pro-palestine group in the US? And really conservative christians the most pro-israel? I recall something to that effect being posted here a couple years ago.
I think Hasidic Jews are probably more pro-Israel than conservative Christians, but I don't think I've ever seen a source for it.
|
Norway28716 Posts
|
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality.
|
On January 23 2017 01:33 Doodsmack wrote:
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality.
Wasn't Trump against a Palestinian state? Peace is easy when you remove one side of the conflict.
|
On January 23 2017 01:33 Doodsmack wrote:
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality.
Who knows. Trump may actually do the logical thing and announce full-throated support for Israel and abandon the two-state solution altogether. That will eventually lead to peace unlike the current trajectory that we have been on for decades.
|
On January 23 2017 01:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 01:33 Doodsmack wrote:
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality. Who knows. Trump may actually do the logical thing and announce full-throated support for Israel and abandon the two-state solution altogether. That will eventually lead to peace unlike the current trajectory that we have been on for decades.
I guess you want to fully legitimize any possible reaction from the other side, if you go that route.
Not sure how this relates to peace though.
|
Frankly I don't think the other side needs any deeper rationalization than "drive Israel into the sea." I'm all for brazen and aggressive resolution of the Israel-Palestine issue here.
|
On January 23 2017 01:46 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 01:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 23 2017 01:33 Doodsmack wrote:
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality. Who knows. Trump may actually do the logical thing and announce full-throated support for Israel and abandon the two-state solution altogether. That will eventually lead to peace unlike the current trajectory that we have been on for decades. I guess you want to fully legitimize any possible reaction from the other side, if you go that route. Not sure how this relates to peace though.
Of course I would expect Palestine to resist Israel. "Legitimacy" as a concept really has no place when we are talking about survival.
|
On January 23 2017 00:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Man that press secretary rant by Sean Spicer about the croud sizes is beyond ridiculous. He's almost foaming at the mouth spouting his objective lies and flaming the press. To me it's chilling that they choose to lie about basic checkable facts (it's just plain visible the croud was smaller than 2009, also subway ticket sales verified it, it's not the first time they protected the grass etc). How can you ever believe their word now when they present more complex information on actual critical matters. Scary as fuck. Also why on earth do they worry about croud sizes in the first place. Pure ego stroking because he HAS to be the best biggest smartest greatest at everything in his narcissistic worldview. Then when NBC ask the presidents counselor about why on earth they would come out and lie about petty shit like this she just completely ignores his question, multiple times, and in the end comes to saying Spicer stated 'alternate facts'. 15 minutes and she can't even answer a single question and ends up attacking him, telling him what is or isn't in his job description. Wtf man http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-conway-interview-presidents-aren-t-judged-by-crowd-size-860134979785
Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment, what if this is Trump testing the waters with outright lies, just to see what he can get away with? This one seems weird just because there's no clear upside for him, since it draws attention to a story that looks bad for him, while he's putting his word up against photographic evidence so he just looks like a liar. Testing the waters is the only rational and intelligent motive I can think of.
Of course, far more likely there's nothing rational or intelligent here to be found.
|
On January 23 2017 01:55 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 00:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Man that press secretary rant by Sean Spicer about the croud sizes is beyond ridiculous. He's almost foaming at the mouth spouting his objective lies and flaming the press. To me it's chilling that they choose to lie about basic checkable facts (it's just plain visible the croud was smaller than 2009, also subway ticket sales verified it, it's not the first time they protected the grass etc). How can you ever believe their word now when they present more complex information on actual critical matters. Scary as fuck. Also why on earth do they worry about croud sizes in the first place. Pure ego stroking because he HAS to be the best biggest smartest greatest at everything in his narcissistic worldview. Then when NBC ask the presidents counselor about why on earth they would come out and lie about petty shit like this she just completely ignores his question, multiple times, and in the end comes to saying Spicer stated 'alternate facts'. 15 minutes and she can't even answer a single question and ends up attacking him, telling him what is or isn't in his job description. Wtf man http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-conway-interview-presidents-aren-t-judged-by-crowd-size-860134979785 Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment, what if this is Trump testing the waters with outright lies, just to see what he can get away with? This one seems weird just because there's no clear upside for him, since it draws attention to a story that looks bad for him, while he's putting his word up against photographic evidence so he just looks like a liar. Testing the waters is the only rational and intelligent motive I can think of. Of course, far more likely there's nothing rational or intelligent here to be found.
No Trump is not playing 7d chess. The reason for this is the same drive behind so many of his actions. He needs his ego stroked and cannot accept he is anything less then the greatest.
|
On January 23 2017 01:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 01:33 Doodsmack wrote:
Reports that trump will announce move of US embassy to Jerusalem. He also has promised a peace deal. So it would seem his execution is not connected to reality. Wasn't Trump against a Palestinian state? Peace is easy when you remove one side of the conflict.
He has promised a two state solution. It's kind of like him promising that everyone will have health care. He is just stating what everyone wants to hear; reacting to what's in the media from day to day. His statements start and end in the media; he doesn't personally have a concept of governance beyond that. Not connected to reality.
|
On January 23 2017 01:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 01:55 ChristianS wrote:On January 23 2017 00:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Man that press secretary rant by Sean Spicer about the croud sizes is beyond ridiculous. He's almost foaming at the mouth spouting his objective lies and flaming the press. To me it's chilling that they choose to lie about basic checkable facts (it's just plain visible the croud was smaller than 2009, also subway ticket sales verified it, it's not the first time they protected the grass etc). How can you ever believe their word now when they present more complex information on actual critical matters. Scary as fuck. Also why on earth do they worry about croud sizes in the first place. Pure ego stroking because he HAS to be the best biggest smartest greatest at everything in his narcissistic worldview. Then when NBC ask the presidents counselor about why on earth they would come out and lie about petty shit like this she just completely ignores his question, multiple times, and in the end comes to saying Spicer stated 'alternate facts'. 15 minutes and she can't even answer a single question and ends up attacking him, telling him what is or isn't in his job description. Wtf man http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-conway-interview-presidents-aren-t-judged-by-crowd-size-860134979785 Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment, what if this is Trump testing the waters with outright lies, just to see what he can get away with? This one seems weird just because there's no clear upside for him, since it draws attention to a story that looks bad for him, while he's putting his word up against photographic evidence so he just looks like a liar. Testing the waters is the only rational and intelligent motive I can think of. Of course, far more likely there's nothing rational or intelligent here to be found. No Trump is not playing 7d chess. The reason for this is the same drive behind so many of his actions. He needs his ego stroked and cannot accept he is anything less then the greatest.
I don't think he is either, for the record, just wondering what the 7d chess narrative would be.
|
Norway28716 Posts
To be fair, 'peace between Israel and Palestine' was pretty much the one thing Trump said was so difficult that he wasn't sure even he could achieve it.
|
On January 23 2017 02:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To be fair, 'peace between Israel and Palestine' was pretty much the one thing Trump said was so difficult that he wasn't sure even he could achieve it.
Surprisingly realistic of him, maybe there is hope (ha!)
|
Well, the Alernative Facts thing is the first real sign of something that might be dangerous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/09/jew-chp5-9.png)
