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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Norway28654 Posts
On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well 
They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back?
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Former CIA Director John Brennan says President Donald Trump "should be ashamed of himself" for his behavior at CIA headquarters.
That's according to a statement released by Brennan's former aide Nick Shapiro.
The statement says Brennan "is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes. Brennan says that Trump should be ashamed of himself."
Speaking to CIA officers Saturday while standing in front of the memorial for fallen CIA agents, Trump appeared more focused on settling scores with the media. He berated journalists over the coverage of his inauguration and wrongly claimed that the crowd was much bigger than the media reported.
Yahoo
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On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back?
The more walls the merrier! 
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On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier!
Are the building workers mainly migrants in the US like in France?
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On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier!
The scarier interpretation is that he'll build walls to keep people in, like they did in Germany. We are not there yet, obviously, but his remarks really don't point towards someone who values individual freedoms. While the Women's march was encouraging, it has to manifest into something concrete in order to offer effective resistance. For now, it's just good to know that people have not yet given up on their hopes and dreams.
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On January 22 2017 22:45 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier! The scarier interpretation is that he'll build walls to keep people in, like they did in Germany. We are not there yet, obviously, but his remarks really don't point towards someone who values individual freedoms. While the Women's march was encouraging, it has to manifest into something concrete in order to offer effective resistance. For now, it's just good to know that people have not yet given up on their hopes and dreams.
Resistance is pretty hard against someone with an ego like Trump who will ignore everything negative. He is the President right now. Unless Republicans rebel against him you need to wait 2 years and hope (probably not possible) to vote in a Democratic majority aswell as simply wait 4 years for the next election.
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On January 22 2017 22:42 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier! Are the building workers mainly migrants in the US like in France?
It's actually very difficult to tell what the proportions are given how much incentive there is for building contractors and the like to keep their undocumented immigrant numbers below the table. That said, there is most definitely a large population of low-skilled workers who migrate to the US to work in construction, agriculture, and other similar fields. In terms of above the board foreign worker numbers, the HB1 visa program will very likely change dramatically here in the next 4 years, and to be frank, change is needed, only I very much doubt Trump will bring about the kind I'm referring to.
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On January 22 2017 21:51 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:14 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. Telling someone to stop repeating a mantra only to follow it with multiples of your own choosing isn't very persuasive. In fact, you're easily one of the least persuasive posters in that you drop in with one or two lines about how you're glad Trump won and then you run away, unable to defend your words. The first step is acknowledging the problem-SoSexy will never do that. On January 22 2017 21:12 TheDwf wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. If you knew something about “the left” you would know that various currents of the left criticize center-left policies for bullying people and thus creating room for people like Trump. This thread itself is even full of leftists criticizing leftists, though it's clear that not everyone who posts here actually reads the posts of others LOL I do not have to convince anyone! I am simply taking a look at reality. Trump won and it would be time for the left to say 'we fucked up. hard. sorry rural americans, you are not monstrous, under-developed racists. we will try to build a program that will consider your worries'. That's all I'd like. Instead I see idiots smashing the windows of a McDonald, running with a giant black flag or stuff like this + Show Spoiler +
Well, in case you already forgot, we had a left-wing candidate who tried to build a program that took into accounts the worries of rural Americans. He even got close to being the left's nominee (thanks to those rural Americans' voices, partly), despite being both relatively unknown by most people before his run and being up against the hostility of the party's leading members.
So, yeah, "the left will never do that", right ?
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On January 22 2017 22:45 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier! The scarier interpretation is that he'll build walls to keep people in, like they did in Germany. We are not there yet, obviously, but his remarks really don't point towards someone who values individual freedoms. While the Women's march was encouraging, it has to manifest into something concrete in order to offer effective resistance. For now, it's just good to know that people have not yet given up on their hopes and dreams.
On a related note of hope, state Attorneys General are organizing national meetings where they will discuss to what extent the head lawyers of each state should oppose Trump's federal policies, and a number of prominent AGs stood with marchers yesterday in solidarity. Check out Lisa Madigan, Maura Healey, Mark Herring, and Brian Frosh for good examples.
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On January 22 2017 22:15 farvacola wrote:
For those curious, there was not a single arrest (that's right, zero arrests) made during yesterday's Women's March.
That's amazing! On a related note, Trump just set the world record for being rejected by the most women in a single day.
Edit: Where are you referring to? I've read that the vast majority of marches around the world had zero arrests, but technically Denver had 3 (although 1 of those 3 was unrelated... the person had already had a warrant out for their arrest): http://www.denverite.com/three-people-arrested-womens-march-denver-27636/
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On January 22 2017 23:02 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:45 mustaju wrote:On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier! The scarier interpretation is that he'll build walls to keep people in, like they did in Germany. We are not there yet, obviously, but his remarks really don't point towards someone who values individual freedoms. While the Women's march was encouraging, it has to manifest into something concrete in order to offer effective resistance. For now, it's just good to know that people have not yet given up on their hopes and dreams. On a related note of hope, state Attorneys General are organizing national meetings where they will discuss to what extent the head lawyers of each state should oppose Trump's federal policies, and a number of prominent AGs stood with marchers yesterday in solidarity. Check out Lisa Madigan, Maura Healey, Mark Herring, and Brian Frosh for good examples.
Thank you for that. Could you link your source for the zero arrests?
@Gorsa - Resistance right now should mean making the republicans rebel against him, and to support those who do. Congress and senate does get elected every 2 years, true, and the extent of the resistance will definitely determine who gets elected.
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On January 22 2017 23:10 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 23:02 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:45 mustaju wrote:On January 22 2017 22:26 farvacola wrote:On January 22 2017 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well They can build a wall across the Canadian border to stop the Americans who moved there after Trump won from ever coming back? The more walls the merrier! The scarier interpretation is that he'll build walls to keep people in, like they did in Germany. We are not there yet, obviously, but his remarks really don't point towards someone who values individual freedoms. While the Women's march was encouraging, it has to manifest into something concrete in order to offer effective resistance. For now, it's just good to know that people have not yet given up on their hopes and dreams. On a related note of hope, state Attorneys General are organizing national meetings where they will discuss to what extent the head lawyers of each state should oppose Trump's federal policies, and a number of prominent AGs stood with marchers yesterday in solidarity. Check out Lisa Madigan, Maura Healey, Mark Herring, and Brian Frosh for good examples. Thank you for that. Could you link your source for the zero arrests? @Gorsa - Resistance right now should mean making the republicans rebel against him, and to support those who do. Congress and senate does get elected every 2 years, true, and the extent of the resistance will definitely determine who gets elected.
Granted, these reports are still being verified, but here's what I've found so far.
WASHINGTON (AP) - A day after more than 200 people were arrested in Washington while protesting the inauguration of President Donald Trump, the Woman's March on Washington didn't yield a single arrest. That's according to the District of Columbia's homeland security director, Christopher Geldart. Friday's protests were led by self-described anarchists, and federal prosecutors say most of those arrested will be charged with felony rioting. Geldart says, "I think our Metropolitan Police Department performed not only admirably but outstandingly." He adds, "They knew when we had those who were trying to destroy things and those who were trying to peacefully protest." Geldart says it is safe to say
No arrests at D.C.'s Women's March
Up to 750,000 people marched through the streets of downtown Los Angeles on Saturday in one of the sister marches to the Women’s March in Washington, D.C.
And not a single one of them was arrested, the Los Angeles Police Department told TheWrap. “We had zero arrests,” Officer Norma Eisenman said. “It was very peaceful, very family-oriented. We had lots of families out there.”
750,000 People Attended LA Women’s March – and Zero Got Arrested
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On January 22 2017 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine. Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall. How do you plan to undo the effects of automation? i'd have to introduce you to my imaginary social order but mainly, you make it free.
LL would probably give more realistic would be scenarios though.
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On January 22 2017 23:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:15 farvacola wrote:
For those curious, there was not a single arrest (that's right, zero arrests) made during yesterday's Women's March. That's amazing! On a related note, Trump just set the world record for being rejected by the most women in a single day. Edit: Where are you referring to? I've read that the vast majority of marches around the world had zero arrests, but technically Denver had 3 (although 1 of those 3 was unrelated... the person had already had a warrant out for their arrest): http://www.denverite.com/three-people-arrested-womens-march-denver-27636/
Should have clarified that I was only referring to the DC march, but it looks many of the biggest marches can also claim no arrests as well.
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Yeah just seen the images of the marches on the NYT website.
Cannot see how the United States can survive in it's current form.Must really be close to a civil war and breakup of the union.Within the next ten years certainly.
I saw many, many signs with peace symbols on, signs claiming Trump would be bad for world peace.Have these people been living under a rock the past eight years? The USA dropped over 26,000 bombs last year.I agree with the message (of peace) but where were these people last year.Where were these huge anti war protests last year.Why protest a guy who said the Iraq and Afghan wars were a disaster while voting for a woman who voted in favour of the Iraq war as senator.These people are just so ill informed, so brainwashed by the mainstream media it truly is scary.
Guardian - Obama admin 10 times the number of drone strikes as Bush admin
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy
In 2016, US special operators could be found in 70% of the world’s nations, 138 countries – a staggering jump of 130% since the days of the Bush administration.
Looking back at President Obama’s legacy, the Council on Foreign Relation’s Micah Zenko added up the defense department’s data on airstrikes and made a startling revelation: in 2016 alone, the Obama administration dropped at least 26,171 bombs. This means that every day last year, the US military blasted combatants or civilians overseas with 72 bombs; that’s three bombs every hour, 24 hours a day.
While most of these air attacks were in Syria and Iraq, US bombs also rained down on people in Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. That’s seven majority-Muslim countries.
One bombing technique that President Obama championed is drone strikes. As drone-warrior-in-chief, he spread the use of drones outside the declared battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, mainly to Pakistan and Yemen. Obama authorized over 10 times more drone strikes than George W Bush, and automatically painted all males of military age in these regions as combatants, making them fair game for remote controlled killing.
Would there be an outcry if Obamas nobel peace prize was revoked? Because there shouldn't be and the guy shouldn't be put on a pedestal like he is on here.
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On January 22 2017 21:38 nojok wrote:
I don't get the support to Israel, specially coming from an anti migrant President. Even our far right agrees Palestinian should be allowed to have their country. I've tried to find sources why the US support Isreal but I've found nothing really explaining it. It's a major cause of problems between the West and the East and everyone outside of the US and Israel agree that at least the colonization should stop and would benefit everyone. Anyone has a good source/book explaining this support? Specially after some espionage affairs or the Israeli selling some American weapons to China.
You get jewish electorate and inteligentsia against you, and you are a dead man if you are a democrat. That explains that half. (I know by experience that american jews are often extremely emotional and not always super rational when it comes to Israel.)
Then historically the republican were rather anti israel, but that has changed the day the muslims became the scary guys we all unite against, somewhere in the 90s.
Not much incentive to support a free palestine anywhere in the american political spectrum.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance.
Perhaps they won't. In all likelihood they won't. There is a good reason why populist parties are generally, but not always, short-lived. But desperate people vote for the risky, rather than the assured failure.
Specifically, I don't expect Trump to make things better. But there has been no one more capable of bringing to light the issues than him - and if the political elite are concerned about their future then they will start to listen. Unfortunately, it sometimes takes a rather serious blow to their system before they even start to acknowledge it.
What happens next is not really clear. I expect at least a decade of troubled times. It will take more than Trump and Brexit to make the leadership "get it."
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On January 22 2017 22:17 farvacola wrote:It's worth noting that the "forgotten middle class" voters who swing so hard for Trump (think Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin) mostly live hundreds and hundreds of miles from the US-Mexico border; this group is also extremely unlikely to have ever lived further than 50 miles away from where they were born. Accordingly, I don't see "join Trump and build the wall down South" pleas working so well
You ignore the fact that there might be effects in their communities from the ilegal immigration. The trailer park across the bridge from where I live is now half illegal Mexican and now my city is estimated to have the highest rate per capita of cock fighting and meth production in Minnesota. Granted the white people are probably the ones doing the meth cooking but still.
I personaly am okay with it as they tend to stay in their trailer park when not working (granted racist assholes would report any mexican outside of it) and we've gotten some really kickass mexican places in the area.
On January 22 2017 23:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 21:38 nojok wrote:
I don't get the support to Israel, specially coming from an anti migrant President. Even our far right agrees Palestinian should be allowed to have their country. I've tried to find sources why the US support Isreal but I've found nothing really explaining it. It's a major cause of problems between the West and the East and everyone outside of the US and Israel agree that at least the colonization should stop and would benefit everyone. Anyone has a good source/book explaining this support? Specially after some espionage affairs or the Israeli selling some American weapons to China. You get jewish electorate and inteligentsia against you, and you are a dead man if you are a democrat. That explains that half. (I know by experience that american jews are often extremely emotional and not always super rational when it comes to Israel.) Then historically the republican were rather anti israel, but that has changed the day the muslims became the scary guys we all unite against, somewhere in the 90s. Not much incentive to support a free Palestine anywhere in the american political spectrum.
Its pretty shitty to point to Muslims as the only reason why the right supports Isreal. There certinly was a lot larger base of support among religious people explicitly protestants as the main reason of support for Isreal.
It basically runs down to Jewish doners In New york and the margins of jewish people in Florida that mean the usa is so in the bag for Israel. removing the EC would make this even worse oddly.
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At this point I'm looking forward to the Olympics 2020 to have a laugh.
This from a White House official for the US anyone?
+ Show Spoiler [pic] +
But on a more serious note, there's no day that has me opening Reuters or whatever else without a little bit of shock nowadays with stuff like
White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus intensified the Trump administration's criticism of the news media on Sunday, accusing it of trying to delegitimize Donald Trump's presidency and vowing to fight such coverage "tooth and nail."
"The media from Day One has been talking about delegitimizing the election," Priebus said in an interview with "Fox News Sunday." He accused the media of attacks on the new president, saying "we're not going to sit around and take it."
, the number of people showing up for inauguration etc 
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 22 2017 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 22:06 xM(Z wrote:On January 22 2017 21:46 warding wrote:On January 22 2017 21:06 SoSexy wrote:On January 22 2017 19:36 warding wrote:
LegalLord, what policies do the populists defend that actually help the middle class? You paint the 'liberal world' as ignoring the plight of the middle class, while the populists actually speak to them. What troubles me is that that analysis, which had been repeated often after the election, focuses solely on rhetoric and not on actual policy and substance. Stop repeating this mantra. If previous policies had been beneficial towards the middle classe, people wouldn't have been so angry to vote for Trump. Or do you believe that people voted for Obama and then turned into bigots, fascists, racists in 4 years? The first step towards healing is acknowledging the problem - the left will never do that. I was going to correct you on your interpretation of my post but then I concluded that you probably didn't read it so I won't bother. Also, I'm not a leftist. On economics I tend to be on the right side of the aisle. your problem is that LL and you won't argue about the same middle class. you're referring to current middle class while he(but maybe didn't pinpoint it yet) refers to the ex-middle class; you know, the one that was already plighted and for those, a wall might be just fine. Please explain how the ex-middle class will get their jobs back by building a wall. How do you plan to undo the effects of automation?
The wall is more so symbolic of what it represents: keeping low-paid laborers out to prevent a downward spiral in wages and working conditions. I would argue that programs like the H1-B (visa for skilled guest workers) does equal or more harm because its abuse induces an even more insidious race to the bottom. Some immigrants are a net benefit for the country, some are a net loss, but when they see the disaster of the migrant crisis in Europe they feel that building a wall is a better approach than "open the floodgates."
In the US at least, the "solution" is a more inward-focused economic development. I can't help but be disgusted whenever I see just how much some of the large American businesses focus on expansion in China and India (and boast about it) while much of the country would be quite happy to have the kinds of jobs they're creating abroad. The solution may not be to stand in the way of technological development like automation - but it must involve processes that put a nation's own people ahead of the best profits attainable. Anything more specific than that, I'd prefer to have a cabinet of economic advisors to develop specific policy proposals.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KRCBkJ6.jpg)
