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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Hate to say it, but I have to say that Trumpian isolationism and/or Bush-era American exceptionalism is more in line with how Americans are than Obama-style "responsible citizens of the world" views. Whatever people may think of Trump overall he captures that aspect of American FP outlook better.
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I have a question. Donald Trump just tweeted this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Am57KH6.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +As an aside, this is the first time I've seen Trump try to write a normal, human, professional tweet... but maybe honered = "honor bonered"?
But then he deleted it, and apparently that deletion might be a violation of the Presidential Records Act since now he's president; the PRA mandates the preservation of all presidential records. Does anyone know if this extends to social media? He might have broken the law, but I don't know much about the PRA.
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my grandfather and great grandfather worked for the CIA. this is incredibly insulting. Can't wait for his speech in front of the vietnam memorial.
Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366
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On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366
In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides.
1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization.
2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia.
So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure.
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On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure.
I don't care about that I get him being frustrated. I'm more mad that he basically stood in front of the CIA wall of fallen officers and started talking about crowd sizes. not the time or the place for it.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
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On January 22 2017 13:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I have a question. Donald Trump just tweeted this: + Show Spoiler +As an aside, this is the first time I've seen Trump try to write a normal, human, professional tweet... but maybe honered = "honor bonered"? But then he deleted it, and apparently that deletion might be a violation of the Presidential Records Act since now he's president; the PRA mandates the preservation of all presidential records. Does anyone know if this extends to social media? He might have broken the law, but I don't know much about the PRA.
does twitter keep archival records of things that were deleted?
I don't know specifically, and haven't looked up the act.
but I expect the act was written before social media existed. it's probably written broadly enough that it would apply.
I'm sure as long as archival copies of it were taken, it's fine to delete/modify what's in the current stream. well, not totally sure, but it seems very likely.
I'd expect them to allow presidential records to have typo fixes, at least if oyu make a note that a typo was fixed.
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On January 22 2017 13:20 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. I don't care about that I get him being frustrated. I'm more mad that he basically stood in front of the CIA wall of fallen officers and started talking about crowd sizes. not the time or the place for it.
That Trump acts in ways that are inappropriate to his position of office almost goes without saying. I see essentially zero reason to continue to point it out.
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On January 22 2017 13:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:20 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. I don't care about that I get him being frustrated. I'm more mad that he basically stood in front of the CIA wall of fallen officers and started talking about crowd sizes. not the time or the place for it. That Trump acts in ways that are inappropriate to his position of office almost goes without saying. I see essentially zero reason to continue to point it out.
I know. I guess I'm just taking it personally.
also yay for waterboarding
Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's pick to run the CIA, Rep. Mike Pompeo, has told Congress that he would consider bringing back waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation measures under certain circumstances.
In a series of written responses on Wednesday to questions from members of the Senate intelligence committee, Pompeo said that while current permitted interrogation techniques are limited to those contained in the Army Field Manual, he was open to making changes to that policy.
"If confirmed, I will consult with experts at the Agency and at other organizations in the US government on whether the Army Field Manual uniform application is an impediment to gathering vital intelligence to protect the country," he wrote.
While Pompeo acknowledged interrogation practices like waterboarding are illegal under current law, he did not rule out seeking to have those laws modified.
"If experts believed current law was an impediment to gathering vital intelligence to protect the country, I would want to understand such impediments and whether any recommendations were appropriate for changing current law," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/21/politics/pompeo-cia-waterboarding/index.html
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On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure.
You're making it sound like a 50:50. Trump called the CIA nazis, then had the gall to blame the media for mis-characterizing the relationship. Also as far as I know the CIA didn't release that document to the media. So unless you can find a source then you're just making shit up to justify Trump's behavior.
On January 22 2017 13:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:20 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. I don't care about that I get him being frustrated. I'm more mad that he basically stood in front of the CIA wall of fallen officers and started talking about crowd sizes. not the time or the place for it. That Trump acts in ways that are inappropriate to his position of office almost goes without saying. I see essentially zero reason to continue to point it out.
Because it's not simply inappropriate. His rhetoric is reckless, often duplicitous, promotes conflict and impacts on global markets and diplomacy.
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On January 22 2017 13:28 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. You're making it sound like a 50:50. Trump called the CIA nazis, then had the gall to blame the media for mis-characterizing the relationship. Also as far as I know the CIA didn't release that document to the media. So unless you can find a source then you're just making shit up to justify Trump's behavior.
Can't find the source right now - my access to internet right now is very sporadic and I don't have time to search for that specific criticism. But it was from one of the big newspapers.
I definitely don't think Trump did the right thing. I have plenty of criticisms for the CIA but Trump absolutely acted like a stubborn buffoon here. But to make it one-sided is to ignore that both sides went about it stupidly.
This is without even criticizing the way they went about dealing with the Russia issue, by the way. I could write a whole lot about how badly they went about it (leaking to the press, releasing a document with zero evidence and very aggressive assertions, many other things) but at this point it's almost moot.
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The Director of National Intelligence included the intelligence document in one of Obama/Trump's intelligence briefings. Someone with knowledge of this fact leaked it to the press. I don't know why LegalLord thinks that the CIA was behind the leak.
I also don't know why LegalLord keeps defending Trump's persistently delusional behavior. It wouldn't need pointing out if he had the self control of, say, every other R/D presidential candidate this election cycle. And I'm including Ben Carson.
The fact that it keeps happening to the point where LegalLord is tired of it is, in of itself, a huge red flag. And that's not including his casual disregard of basic reality. I can't believe Trump's disputing the inauguration numbers; his...views...on more complicated matters will certainly be more depressing.
If Trump can't even believe his own lying eyes over his own ego, this Presidency will probably be a bad one.
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On January 22 2017 13:37 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:28 Scarecrow wrote:On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. You're making it sound like a 50:50. Trump called the CIA nazis, then had the gall to blame the media for mis-characterizing the relationship. Also as far as I know the CIA didn't release that document to the media. So unless you can find a source then you're just making shit up to justify Trump's behavior. This is without even criticizing the way they went about dealing with the Russia issue, by the way. I could write a whole lot about how badly they went about it ( leaking to the press, releasing a document with zero evidence and very aggressive assertions, many other things) but at this point it's almost moot.
So what I bolded is basically only one thing, that you can't currently support, plus "many other things." Let us know when you find it. I can't find any article supporting that they leaked it, the closest I could find was that Russia blamed Mi6 for leaking the dossier. Considering Steele's frustration/agenda I wouldn't be surprised if he gave it to the media himself at some point, which would leave your sole criticism of the CIA as "many other things."
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The dossier was in no way leaked by the CIA. The Steele dossier was leaked months ago to a bajillion different members of the press (freaking Mother Jones had it, I doubt they have CIA contacts), but nobody published it because verifying the nebulous parts of it was impossible and some parts were false.
Someone from the CIA miiight have leaked it was in the briefing docs, but as far as I know nobody's said whether that was CIA or any of the other people who had access to them of which there were tons.
Note that I think all of the was after Trump's comments on restructuring intelligence agencies because he was mad he was going to soon be forced to say Russia hacked the DNC, which was as close as we'll get to him ever admitting he was wrong about something.
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On January 22 2017 13:20 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 13:17 LegalLord wrote:On January 22 2017 13:14 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Donald Trump traveled to CIA headquarters Saturday to offer reassurance to the workforce after he spent weeks criticizing American intelligence, but his unscripted, self-referential remarks before a wall of stars memorializing fallen officers are drawing criticism, including a pointed denunciation from the agency's recently departed director.
"Former CIA Director Brennan is deeply saddened and angered at Donald Trump's despicable display of self-aggrandizement in front of CIA's Memorial Wall of Agency heroes," Nick Shapiro, a former aide to John Brennan at CIA, told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell.
Brennan, Shapiro said, believes Trump "should be ashamed of himself."
Trump was greeted with cheers by the CIA officers who volunteered to be there to greet him on a Saturday.
But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
Trump expressed support for the CIA, but he also veered into political territory, denouncing the news media, boasting about the size of his inaugural crowds, and even discussing his own appraisal of his intellect.
"And then they say, 'Is Donald Trump an intellectual?'" Trump said. "Trust me, I'm like a smart person."
A former senior CIA officer told NBC News he was embarrassed, watching the remarks, which he called a "free-wheeling, narcissistic diatribe."
Another former senior official noted that that early on in his remarks Trump interrupted himself as he was commenting on the stars behind him and never returned to the topic.
"Not quite a `this hallowed ground moment,'" the official said.
Former CIA Director Mike Hayden, a Republican who opposed Trump, said in an email, "I was heartened that the President gave a speech at CIA. It would have been even better if more of it had been about CIA."
When Barack Obama first visited CIA as president in 2009, he read a speech in which he honored CIA officers and told them he would need their help.
Trump, by contrast, tried to make a joke about how he would "back" the CIA.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-cia-boss-brennan-others-rip-trump-speech-front-memorial-n710366 In the CIA-Trump matters, old intelligence people have strong criticisms for both sides. 1. Criticism for Trump for his stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge their intelligence on Russia, to the point that he, as president-elect, criticized the organization. 2. Criticism of the CIA for releasing that unvetted document suggesting all sorts of crazy shit about Trump in Russia. So they have some relations to rebuild, for sure. I don't care about that I get him being frustrated. I'm more mad that he basically stood in front of the CIA wall of fallen officers and started talking about crowd sizes. not the time or the place for it. Show nested quote + But the wall of 117 stars in the CIA lobby is a revered place, and presidents who have spoken there tend to do so carefully and with a close attention to their subject — usually the sacrifices of the CIA officers and their families.
It's been quite obvious since his interactions with McCain and the Kahns that he couldn't give two shits for those who give their freedom, or their lives for their country. His narcissism still manages to surprise me.
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Looking back at the WaPo article that represents the original source, they say "anonymous source briefed on the matter." I guess that isn't proof the CIA did it.
In any case, I think the point is moot. I'm not about to go on a tirade of criticizing the CIA and I don't see any point in debating whether Trump is merely regular-Hitler-bad or super-Hitler-bad. We all agree he did stupidly and "how stupidly" isn't really important enough for me to care.
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now thats an idea i can get behind. its cool that "anyone" can be president, but at the same time you would think that could be an issue in the near future, now that Trump is president. He spouts off vulgar things, but someone else could be a helluva lot worse.
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On January 22 2017 14:15 Hexe wrote:now thats an idea i can get behind. its cool that "anyone" can be president, but at the same time you would think that could be an issue in the near future, now that Trump is president. He spouts off vulgar things, but someone else could be a helluva lot worse.
I disagree. Minimal barriers to the Presidency should exist to prevent the standing government from deliberately eliminating opposition candidates. Imagine what Nixon could have done with something as stringent as the PRP.
As bad as Trump will probably be, giving him the power to control who runs against him in four years would be far worse.
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Well, considering at one point Trump wanted to eliminate parental citizenship AND at another point on-American-soil citizenship, in theory our future presidents could all have to pass the immigration and naturalization exam.
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I'm curious if there will be an amendment passed after Trump to prevent... something or other about his presidency that is deeply undesirable.
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EPT
