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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4523

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
July 27 2016 17:21 GMT
#90441
On July 28 2016 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.



You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails.


Out of curiosity, which do you think is more important for this election: the content of the e-mails or the fact that they could have been uncovered via Trump condoning Russian espionage? I honestly don't think as many people care about how they were uncovered, if the content paints Hillary in a negative light.


yeah and the reason for this is because her untrustworthy rating is at 68 percent! People are curious as to how she operates behind the scenes, because no one trusts anything she says in public
Question.?
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 27 2016 17:22 GMT
#90442
On July 28 2016 02:21 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:15 travis wrote:
honestly, who gives a shit that russia was behind the hack? (if they were)
like, why does it matter..?

Trump is very pro-Putin. His son stated a couple years ago that Russian investors were a big part of the Trump business. Trump has said he will not automatically defend Baltic states if Russia attacked per the NATO agreement. Trump stated he would end sanctions and declare Crimea part of Russia, something that NATO opposes.

Trump also called on Russia or whoever to release Clintons emails if they have them. That is like putting a call out fo all other countries "Yo, if you got any dirt on Hillary, could you send that out so I win the election?"

If Clinton is guilty of a Federal crime the American people have a right to know.
Pre-emptive retaliatory de-escalation action
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 17:24:12
July 27 2016 17:23 GMT
#90443
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.



I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter than anybody else, it's simply because he knows no bounds(ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
July 27 2016 17:23 GMT
#90444
On July 28 2016 02:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:21 Plansix wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:15 travis wrote:
honestly, who gives a shit that russia was behind the hack? (if they were)
like, why does it matter..?

Trump is very pro-Putin. His son stated a couple years ago that Russian investors were a big part of the Trump business. Trump has said he will not automatically defend Baltic states if Russia attacked per the NATO agreement. Trump stated he would end sanctions and declare Crimea part of Russia, something that NATO opposes.

Trump also called on Russia or whoever to release Clintons emails if they have them. That is like putting a call out fo all other countries "Yo, if you got any dirt on Hillary, could you send that out so I win the election?"

If Clinton is guilty of a Federal crime the American people have a right to know.


Such a lazy, populist sentiment.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
July 27 2016 17:23 GMT
#90445
On July 28 2016 02:16 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:09 Plansix wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:07 zeo wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:02 zeo wrote:
On July 28 2016 01:51 CobaltBlu wrote:
But the content of the emails aren't that interesting. The DNC certainly misbehaved but nothing really extraordinary in there. Russian government directly attempting to interfere in an American election is big news though. zeo going full press on the emails isn't convincing me otherwise either lol

Hasn't Trump's campaign been caught attempting to tap foreign politicians for funds?

The emails are interesting. Debbie Wasserman Schultz worked on Hillary's campaign in 2008 and the emails show she clearly worked to rig the system in Clinton's favor. Why is this important? Because if you want to plant the next chairman of the Democratic National Committee you need the referral and support of the last chairman, and you do this by offering favors/bribes/positions.

And who was the chairman before DWS (disregarding the interim period before the next chair)? Thats right, Tim Kaine


So Russian involvement is a conspiracy theory but this post isn't?

There is clear evidence that Debbie Wasserman Schultz rigged the Democrat primaries, there is no evidence of Russia's involvement other than unnamed 'experts' and Democrat politicians.

Tim Kaine is only getting what was obviously promised to him in exchange for letting Hillary rig the primaries.

There is no evidence of election fraud in those emails.

lol, you must have a very different definition of fraud than the rest of the World. And I'm sure its just the right definition to make Hillary and DWS seem like victims.
  • There is evidence of a plot designed to smear Bernie Sanders and to hand the Democratic nomination to Hillary
  • There is evidence of repeated collusion and shady dealings between the DNC and the media
  • There is evidence of questionable fund-raising for both Hillary Clinton and the DNC

And thats just the first batch.
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:15 travis wrote:
honestly, who gives a shit that russia was behind the hack? (if they were)
like, why does it matter..?

It doesn't, they are desperate to slide and bury the emails.


On the other hand, we have Trume literally linking Cruz' father to Kennedy assassination FFS. It's not pot call kettle black, it's pot call greyhound black.

I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 17:23 GMT
#90446
On July 28 2016 02:22 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:21 Plansix wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:15 travis wrote:
honestly, who gives a shit that russia was behind the hack? (if they were)
like, why does it matter..?

Trump is very pro-Putin. His son stated a couple years ago that Russian investors were a big part of the Trump business. Trump has said he will not automatically defend Baltic states if Russia attacked per the NATO agreement. Trump stated he would end sanctions and declare Crimea part of Russia, something that NATO opposes.

Trump also called on Russia or whoever to release Clintons emails if they have them. That is like putting a call out fo all other countries "Yo, if you got any dirt on Hillary, could you send that out so I win the election?"

If Clinton is guilty of a Federal crime the American people have a right to know.

Glad to see you admit she isn't a criminal.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46223 Posts
July 27 2016 17:23 GMT
#90447
On July 28 2016 02:21 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.



You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails.


Out of curiosity, which do you think is more important for this election: the content of the e-mails or the fact that they could have been uncovered via Trump condoning Russian espionage? I honestly don't think as many people care about how they were uncovered, if the content paints Hillary in a negative light.


yeah and the reason for this is because her untrustworthy rating is at 68 percent! People are curious as to how she operates behind the scenes, because no one trusts anything she says in public


Well they both have high untrustworthy/ unfavorability ratings, and I think we'd all love to see Trump release his tax returns, considering how frequently he lies.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 27 2016 17:24 GMT
#90448
On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.



I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can.

You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 17:26:00
July 27 2016 17:24 GMT
#90449
On July 28 2016 02:17 silynxer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.



You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails.

On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation.



Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea.

Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either.

I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action.

Can you name other relevant examples? Preferably done to the US by another Government.

Relevant examples of hacking servers? I'm afraid that kind of hack is rarely successful and even more rarely reported. The most unusual thing about (if Russia actually did it) this hack is that it was leaked.

General political espionage? At least a few cases of that. Honestly it's one of those things that most people know happen and you have to be sort of naive to think it doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_operations_in_the_United_States
http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama

The US influencing other governments would be easy. It has much more a powerful intelligence apparatus than most and it uses it often.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-27 17:24:53
July 27 2016 17:24 GMT
#90450
Zeo's posting frequency goes way up when people start talking about Russia, it's really quite funny. Don't blow your cover, dude!
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 27 2016 17:24 GMT
#90451
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.


"Russia, please release the product of your espionage to damage my political opponent."

xDaunt: not an issue.


And your default disbelief of what the media pays attention to regarding Trump is very unfortunate. Without being able to tie your opinions to the media (an easy target) I doubt you would support Trump.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
July 27 2016 17:25 GMT
#90452
On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.



I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can.

You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated.


You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
silynxer
Profile Joined April 2006
Germany439 Posts
July 27 2016 17:25 GMT
#90453
On July 28 2016 02:24 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:17 silynxer wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.



You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails.

On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation.



Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea.

Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either.

I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action.

Can you name other relevant examples? Preferably done to the US by another Government.

Relevant examples of hacking servers? I'm afraid that kind of hack is rarely successful and even more rarely reported. The most unusual thing about (if Russia actually did it) this hack is that it was leaked.

General political espionage? At least a few cases of that. Honestly it's one of those things that most people know happen and you have to be sort of naive to think it doesn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_operations_in_the_United_States
http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama

Relevant means releasing information obtained by espionage to influence an election.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
July 27 2016 17:26 GMT
#90454
On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.



I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can.

You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated.


This is basically how Trump intervened in Ted Cruz's speech, made a random press conference to put the spotlight back on himself and away from the DNC. Although the headlines on these major news networks are pretty entertaining.
Question.?
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 27 2016 17:26 GMT
#90455
On July 28 2016 02:23 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:16 zeo wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:09 Plansix wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:07 zeo wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:02 zeo wrote:
On July 28 2016 01:51 CobaltBlu wrote:
But the content of the emails aren't that interesting. The DNC certainly misbehaved but nothing really extraordinary in there. Russian government directly attempting to interfere in an American election is big news though. zeo going full press on the emails isn't convincing me otherwise either lol

Hasn't Trump's campaign been caught attempting to tap foreign politicians for funds?

The emails are interesting. Debbie Wasserman Schultz worked on Hillary's campaign in 2008 and the emails show she clearly worked to rig the system in Clinton's favor. Why is this important? Because if you want to plant the next chairman of the Democratic National Committee you need the referral and support of the last chairman, and you do this by offering favors/bribes/positions.

And who was the chairman before DWS (disregarding the interim period before the next chair)? Thats right, Tim Kaine


So Russian involvement is a conspiracy theory but this post isn't?

There is clear evidence that Debbie Wasserman Schultz rigged the Democrat primaries, there is no evidence of Russia's involvement other than unnamed 'experts' and Democrat politicians.

Tim Kaine is only getting what was obviously promised to him in exchange for letting Hillary rig the primaries.

There is no evidence of election fraud in those emails.

lol, you must have a very different definition of fraud than the rest of the World. And I'm sure its just the right definition to make Hillary and DWS seem like victims.
  • There is evidence of a plot designed to smear Bernie Sanders and to hand the Democratic nomination to Hillary
  • There is evidence of repeated collusion and shady dealings between the DNC and the media
  • There is evidence of questionable fund-raising for both Hillary Clinton and the DNC

And thats just the first batch.
On July 28 2016 02:15 travis wrote:
honestly, who gives a shit that russia was behind the hack? (if they were)
like, why does it matter..?

It doesn't, they are desperate to slide and bury the emails.


On the other hand, we have Trume literally linking Cruz' father to Kennedy assassination FFS. It's not pot call kettle black, it's pot call greyhound black.


Funny you should say that, from the DNC leak...

Pre-emptive retaliatory de-escalation action
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 27 2016 17:26 GMT
#90456
On July 28 2016 02:24 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.


"Russia, please release the product of your espionage to damage my political opponent."

xDaunt: not an issue.


And your default disbelief of what the media pays attention to regarding Trump is very unfortunate. Without being able to tie your opinions to the media (an easy target) I doubt you would support Trump.


So in your opinion is it ok for Russia to have hacked the DNC as long as the American people don't know about it?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
July 27 2016 17:26 GMT
#90457
On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.

Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand.



I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can.

You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated.


You badly make broad proclamations about the impact of events.
xAPOCALYPSEx
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
1418 Posts
July 27 2016 17:26 GMT
#90458
On July 28 2016 02:17 silynxer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:
On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.



You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails.

On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:

My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation.



Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea.

Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either.

I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action.

Can you name other relevant examples? Preferably done to the US by another Government.

There was an (probably) Iranian-govt based attack on US banks, prompted by a US cyber attack on Iranian nuclear projects. A lot of it (as well as the relevant discussion about how widespread and dangerous this can be) is covered in a documentary called Zero Day if you're interested.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 27 2016 17:27 GMT
#90459
On July 28 2016 02:24 farvacola wrote:
Zeo's posting frequency goes way up when people start talking about Russia, it's really quite funny. Don't blow your cover, dude!

Its cute how you follow me around, do you have a little wall in your bedroom with my posts?
Pre-emptive retaliatory de-escalation action
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 27 2016 17:27 GMT
#90460
On July 28 2016 02:24 farvacola wrote:
Zeo's posting frequency goes way up when people start talking about Russia, it's really quite funny. Don't blow your cover, dude!

Zeo of The Agency:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=0

I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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