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On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish.
Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically.
Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard.
On July 28 2016 02:35 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:34 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:32 silynxer wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:
Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
As mentioned before, leaks are pretty rare. Mmh. If you want to say that leaking documents is unusual, then yes that much is true. It's been done by Russia in recent years, but it's not standard practice for most situations. Though it isn't unprecedented either. I was asking about those precedents.
See my previous post. Wikileaks definitely has some government sources, and the Nuland phone call is one that's explicitly from Russia.
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On July 28 2016 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:28 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. "Russia, please release the product of your espionage to damage my political opponent." xDaunt: not an issue. And your default disbelief of what the media pays attention to regarding Trump is very unfortunate. Without being able to tie your opinions to the media (an easy target) I doubt you would support Trump. This is what you liberals don't understand about Trump voters. We aren't a monolithic block. We each have our own reasons. Some relate to specific policies. Some relate to dissatisfaction with the alternative. For all of us, however, there is one very nice benefit: it's so much fucking fun. Yeah, but you would be flipping your shit if Obama called for anyone to steal and release Trumps tax returns.
Again, the analogy doesn't work because that's not what Trump did.
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On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful.
Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game.
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On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game.
Actually that's not what I'm doing at all. I'm calling out the hypocrisy of posters like xDaunt when they flaunt Trump's numerous inflammatory remarks as "calculated" (when in fact his comments just continue to drive up his unfavorable ratings) while trying to hold Clinton overly-accountable for every possible thing.
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On July 28 2016 02:39 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish. Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically. Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard.
If were are going to get into that, we have to remember that congress cut Obama's legs out from under him when they voted against his proposal for air strikes in Syria after Assad used chemical weapons. Every political observer at the time cited that moment when Russia knew NATO nations had zero interest in conflict of any type. If Putin believed that the US and NATO would have sent troops into assist the Ukraine, he never would have made that play.
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wonder if they'll restrict trump's access to security briefings. i'd like to see that shitshow go down
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On July 28 2016 02:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:39 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish. Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically. Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard. If were are going to get into that, we have to remember that congress cut Obama's legs out from under him when they voted against his proposal for air strikes in Syria after Assad used chemical weapons. Every political observer at the time cited that moment when Russia knew NATO nations had zero interest in conflict of any type. If Putin believed that the US and NATO would have sent troops into assist the Ukraine, he never would have made that play.
I think you underestimate how significant Ukraine is to the Russian government. That very well could have led to open war and the consequences that come with it. US intelligence would corroborate that view.
I do think that it was not without reason that Obama specifically said, "military involvement is off the table."
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On July 28 2016 02:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. "Russia, please release the product of your espionage to damage my political opponent." xDaunt: not an issue. And your default disbelief of what the media pays attention to regarding Trump is very unfortunate. Without being able to tie your opinions to the media (an easy target) I doubt you would support Trump. This is what you liberals don't understand about Trump voters. We aren't a monolithic block. We each have our own reasons. Some relate to specific policies. Some relate to dissatisfaction with the alternative. For all of us, however, there is one very nice benefit: it's so much fucking fun. Yeah, but you would be flipping your shit if Obama called for anyone to steal and release Trumps tax returns. Again, the analogy doesn't work because that's not what Trump did.
Obama could just say "If they were stolen, it would be great if someone released those tax returns. I would like to see those." Be real nonspecific on when the stealing takes place.
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On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions.
Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct.
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On July 28 2016 02:46 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions. Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct.
says more about the electorate than it says about Hillary. You just can't compete with Trump's shitposting. It's like trying to argue with conspiracy theorists. It doesn't matter if you're right, you can't win
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On July 28 2016 02:46 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions. Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct.
1) I didn't say he was "lucky".
2) Trump isn't "stomping" Clinton. If you want to live in Republican fantasyland where you ignore how incredible unpopular Trump is, you can continue to think that, but the rest of us will continue this discussion in the real world.
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On July 28 2016 02:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:34 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:29 farvacola wrote:On July 28 2016 02:27 zeo wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 farvacola wrote:
Zeo's posting frequency goes way up when people start talking about Russia, it's really quite funny. Don't blow your cover, dude! Its cute how you follow me around, do you have a little wall in your bedroom with my posts? No, but I'm sure I could get Mexico to build one for me. Narcissism is rarely self-aware, by the way  You don't have to be self-aware to blindly follow the logic of narcissism.Trump doesn't have to be self-aware to effectively hijack social networks and redirect attention to himself. Sure, but how that relates to intimations of Trump's suavity is more where I was going. Trump isn't cunning, he's just the right kind of guy at the right place at the right time.
You don't get where Trump is without having some cunning. But yes, just like I remarked all those months and months ago, Trump has had the luck to arrive at the right time in history for a candidate with his message and personality.
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On July 28 2016 02:39 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish. Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically. Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard.
I take it from you giving credence to the "referendum" that you think Putin's invasion wasn't that bad of a thing (after all, Obama got involved in Ukraine so we can't really blame Putin for invading). Now, Trump should let Russia have Crimea.
I guess those are at least consistent positions, if surprisingly approving of Russia's ambitions w/r/t sphere of influence. I just hope you aren't adopting a Russia apologist stance to downplay the DNC hacking itself.
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On July 28 2016 02:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:39 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish. Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically. Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard. If were are going to get into that, we have to remember that congress cut Obama's legs out from under him when they voted against his proposal for air strikes in Syria after Assad used chemical weapons. Every political observer at the time cited that moment when Russia knew NATO nations had zero interest in conflict of any type. If Putin believed that the US and NATO would have sent troops into assist the Ukraine, he never would have made that play.
This meme again, its pretty well known by now the UN found that it was the rebels that used Sarin gas, here is a shit ton of sources in the spoiler below:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 28 2016 02:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:46 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:On July 28 2016 02:19 xDaunt wrote:
Saying that Russia should release the emails if it has them is no where close to encouraging espionage. Saying that he "hopes that Russia finds the missing emails" comes closer if you look at the statement in a vacuum with no context, but obviously Russia can't hack what's no longer there.
Let's just cut through the crap and identify what Trump has done: he has gloriously trolled Hillary and the democrats and hijacked the Democrat National Convention. He's running circles around the democrats and they're too stupid to understand why or how he's doing it, hence the faux outrage over these latest statements -- all of which just plays right into Trump's hand. I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions. Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct. 1) I didn't say he was "lucky". 2) Trump isn't "stomping" Clinton. If you want to live in Republican fantasyland, you can continue to think that, but the rest of us will continue this discussion in the real world.
Considering how objectively poor of a candidate Trump is compared to Clinton, "stomping" seems like an apt description. He is outplaying her with a far worse hand. If she wins it won't be because she is better at the game, it will be because she rolled double 6s multiple times in political backgammon.
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I love the people who are declaring if someone is winning or losing at the time where every election expert says polling is the most inaccurate and worthless.
Trump is doing better than anyone expected. He also has a lot of help. But some polling showing that the RNC did little to improve his chances and the bump is mostly from the email release. Its unclear if that will hold.
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On July 28 2016 02:52 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:46 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions. Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct. 1) I didn't say he was "lucky". 2) Trump isn't "stomping" Clinton. If you want to live in Republican fantasyland, you can continue to think that, but the rest of us will continue this discussion in the real world. Considering how objectively poor of a candidate Trump is compared to Clinton, "stomping" seems like an apt description. He is outplaying her with a far worse hand. If she wins it won't be because she is better at the game, it will be because she rolled double 6s multiple times in political backgammon.
The only thing working against Trump is Trump himself. The conservatives had a much, much better hand to start the game with.
Everything outside of Trump is working for Trump. He's running during a time when right-wing populism is surging throughout the western world, when immigration and refugee numbers are incredibly high (which tend to drive up conservative thinking), when we have had numerous terrorist attacks recently (which also drives up conservative, pro-national security public sentiment), when politics are more partisan than ever in the U.S., when the outgoing 2-term president is a Democrat that only hovers around 50% approval ratings, and when his opponent is one of the most disliked politicians of this generation. And yet, with all of this, he's still only breaking even with his post-convention bump and without Clinton's.
See, it's pretty easy for me to paint the picture to show how poorly Trump is doing. It's all about bias.
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On July 28 2016 02:51 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:43 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2016 02:39 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:34 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:18 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:15 LegalLord wrote:On July 28 2016 02:10 Doodsmack wrote:On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
It's not the Russians' fault that the emails contain what they do. Spinning this as if it were is in fact blaming the Russians.
You're conflating blaming the Russians for the hack and blaming them for the content of the emails. On July 28 2016 02:04 LegalLord wrote:
My opinion of Obama is that he is not an FP president and he chose a pretty terrible advisor in Hillary Clinton. That is what it would be regardless of the Ukraine situation. Beside the point of whether you'd criticize him for being weak on Crimea. Blaming the Russians for the hack is an attempt to sidestep the issue of the contents of the hack. Foreign governments hacking your servers is neither unusual nor suspicious because everyone does it to everyone. Leaking the contents, a bit less so, but also not something all that out of the ordinary. Still no conclusive proof that it is Russia either. I gave you my thoughts on Obama's FP. That is hardly beside the point. I don't really think in terms of "weak or strong" but more in "foolish or well-planned" action. Stating a general opinion on Obama's FP is beside the point of a specific question on a specific issue. Both the contents of the hack and the hack itself can be big issues. You are clearly downplaying the latter. My general opinion is my specific opinion. The latter is an issue of the DNC and how fucking bad it is at protecting its own servers. I have mentioned this in the past and the hackee matters more than the hacker. LegalLord: Obama is not a FP president. I assess actions in terms of foolish or not foolish. LegalLord: The above clarifies whether I think Obama's reaction to Crimea was foolish or not foolish. Alrighty, so let's just answer this simply and specifically. Getting involved in Ukraine and encouraging the situation that led to the Crimean referendum was foolish and short-sighted. His response to the situation as it arose, was pretty garden variety for US FP: sanctions and posturing. He didn't start a war, which is a good benchmark for "not John Rambo McCain." He didn't do a good job of defusing the situation, but honestly I don't think that's a task that would happen within his presidency anyways, so I have little to comment about in that regard. If were are going to get into that, we have to remember that congress cut Obama's legs out from under him when they voted against his proposal for air strikes in Syria after Assad used chemical weapons. Every political observer at the time cited that moment when Russia knew NATO nations had zero interest in conflict of any type. If Putin believed that the US and NATO would have sent troops into assist the Ukraine, he never would have made that play. This meme again, its pretty well known by now the UN found that it was the rebels that used Sarin gas, here is a shit ton of sources in the spoiler below: + Show Spoiler +
Man, you really go good work. Are you paid by the post?
Also the only source in that that is worth looking at says “maybe”.
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On July 28 2016 02:52 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2016 02:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:46 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:40 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:28 IgnE wrote:On July 28 2016 02:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 28 2016 02:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 28 2016 02:23 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I don't get why this is supposed to be "glorious trolling". He's just pulled politics down to the level of a reality TV shitshow. That's not because he's smarter as anybody else, it's simply because he knows no borders (ironically) and behaves as obscenely as he possibly can. You are badly underestimating Trump if you don't think that this press conference or his comments were calculated. You routinely overestimate and rationalize Trump's narcissistic actions. Narcissism has it's own logic though. Trump can be doing what he feels he has to because he's a narcissist, and that something can also be a brilliant PR move, because narcissism thrives on publicity. This is exactly the point. Basically all of Trump's actions are short-sighted outbursts meant to preserve his own ego. Meanwhile, his hoard of followers (including most conservative posters here, e.g. xDaunt, Biology, Legal, etc.) will try to rationalize it any way they can so that the cognitive dissonance for one that sees themselves as rational or intelligent isn't so incredibly painful. Dauntless said it was "calculated" not that it was a cynically practical maneuver or unrelated to his narcissism. He knows what he's doing, even if he's not self-aware enough to know that he's motivated by his bottomless need for attention. He knows what he's doing because he has been promoting himself for his entire life. He's like a natural athlete who just knows how it "feels" to make the right moves on the sporting field, and you are complaining that he is beating Hillary when she puts so much more work into strategizing and theorizing about how to win the political game. Actually that's not what I'm doing at all, but feel free to continue to be wrong about my intentions. Whatever dude. Feel free to complain in shitposts about people not understanding you. Trump is reactionary and doesn't see more than 1 move ahead on the chessboard, but that doesn't mean he's just getting lucky. It says more about how bad Hillary is at the game that he is stomping her with purely reactionary, animal instinct. 1) I didn't say he was "lucky". 2) Trump isn't "stomping" Clinton. If you want to live in Republican fantasyland, you can continue to think that, but the rest of us will continue this discussion in the real world. Considering how objectively poor of a candidate Trump is compared to Clinton, "stomping" seems like an apt description. He is outplaying her with a far worse hand. If she wins it won't be because she is better at the game, it will be because she rolled double 6s multiple times in political backgammon.
Because getting the media lights on himself is inherently a good thing and constitutes "stomping".
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EPT
